Star Trek Discovery Season 02, Episode 11: "Perpetual Infinity" (Spoilers)

mustrumridcully0 · March 2019

So as I expected, Control "assimilated" "Leeland".

Things I am not entirely sure about:
Are we fighting future or present Control?

What still seems unexplained is why the Suite has all the abilities it has - is it all due to the Time Crystal and its special time-weird phenomena?

The way Dr.Burnham is alwas dragged back into the future reminds me a bit of DS9's episode Visitor, except Sisko's anchor point in time was his son, and it wasn't static, where as Dr. Burnham is always drawn back to the future.

If Leeland really found Dr. Burnham's corpse, does that mean she'll eventually make it back to the time she left, to die there?

So is the reason the Discovery is sitting around for 1,000 years in Calypso so she can pick up Dr. Burnham and then maybe use the Mycelium Network to get her back to the present? Is Zora in any way related to the Sphere Data or Control? Or is she the "anti-Control" program - an AI that basically does the same as the Sphere, collect Data and get the same "inspiration" as Control did with the Sphere Data, but direct into something benevolent?

mustrumridcully0 · March 2019

Well, I will not rule out the possibility that they will link Control to the Borg. But I hope they are not trying to make Control part of the creation mythos behind the Borg.

Control's motivation would need to change considerably however to turn into the Borg, since the Borg have no intention of killing all organic life. Of course, in VOY it is stated that the Borg lost a lot of information about the past, so maybe the Borg don't even remember their original goals. if Control is permanently barred from the Sphere Data, it might decide to collect the data itself the "Long way", creating the Borg.

That said, I could see that Control is using Borg technology. There are two avenues where it could have access to it:
1) The Sphere data might contain information about the Borg, and future Control might have send enough information back so that present-day Control can replicate it.
2) Dr. Phlox studied Borg nanotechnology in the ENT episode with the Borg. It is not unlikely that the data is still in Starfleet and Section 31 archives, and maybe present day Control reused some of that.

That said, nanites are not Borg-specific, as far as we know. Wesley experimented with already existing medical nanites, IIRC.

saurializard · March 2019

Also, the Borg use "Species 5618" as the designation for humans, meaning they encountered them a lot later after their creation. So unless the crew manages to utterly wipe out Control's memories and manages to strand it in the past and in the Delta Quadrant, it's very unlikely (and thank the Great Bird for that) that it's a proto-Borg, unless CBS is up for some more unnecessary retcon.

That said, it could be possible Control became homicidal and self-aware due to receiving some incomplete data from future Borg and "assimilated" it to gain some of their abilities, like assimilating nanites, but not their goals and "ideology". And "struggle is pointless" could be a slight corruption of the original catchphrase as a result of missing data.

Also, I applaud Tyler for taking more than 2 seconds to spot Control!Leland and spending 5 seconds looking at nothing for a dramatic shot, and then spending even more time before drawing a phaser. Our Section 31 secret agent, everyone!

kekvin · March 2019

ENT was soppose to do the borg origin story. If this is one I like

jonsills · March 2019

I think the line is pure coincidence. It's one used by oppressors throughout history, after all - an attempt to sap the will of any resistance movement by proclaiming their efforts useless, as the oppressor will win in the end anyway. (Spoiler: They're usually wrong.)

starkaos · March 2019

My understanding of Control is that future Control infected 23rd Century Control through infected Airiam to make it more in line with its future programming. 23rd Century Control needs the Sphere data to further evolve as an AI since the sphere collected a ton of information on every subject including AI.

As with others, I hope Discovery stays as far away as possible from the Destiny novels. The origin of the Borg should have absolutely nothing to do with humans and time travel.

saurializard · March 2019

One more thing, too:

Why does Discovery have torpedo launchers in its warp nacelles in this episode?
That's one of the worst placements you can have for a weapon that destructive on a ship of Starfleet design! Something goes wrong and a premature detonation happens and BAM! Your mean to escape at warp speed is crippled and the saucer gets some serious damage on its sides as well as it's just besides the direct lines of fire.

angrytarg · March 2019

saurializard wrote: »

One more thing, too:

Why does Discovery have torpedo launchers in its warp nacelles in this episode?
That's one of the worst placements you can have for a weapon that destructive on a ship of Starfleet design! Something goes wrong and a premature detonation happens and BAM! Your mean to escape at warp speed is crippled and the saucer gets some serious damage on its sides as well as it's just besides the direct lines of fire.

I was wondering the same thing. I thought the times of wonky weapon placement due to erroneously copying a special effect into a still frame were over.

Also, I really hope DSC stays away from the Borg. You can't kill a concept more to death than this.

saurializard · March 2019

starkaos wrote: »

The origin of the Borg should have absolutely nothing to do with humans and time travel.

The origins of the Borg should be left a mystery anyway. That's what makes them scarier. Once you remove this mystery, for any memorable creature, you make it less scary because the explanation is guaranteed to let a varying number of people down.

Remember how the Xenomorphs were actually made by an overly dramatic, creepy android with a god complex and incestuous tones towards his own line of "brothers", who managed to wipe out most of the Space Jockeys (who actually look like handsome Ghostbusters marshmallow men beneath those suits, BTW) with space mutagenic wasps and start fully producing the Aliens because of incredibly stupid colonists making all the worst possible decisions allowing him to freely wander the galaxy?

Yeah, I wished I didn't remember either.

mirrorchaos · March 2019

Every story needs a starting point, even the Borg origins will need to be explained at some point. season 5 of enterprise was expected to reveal the Borg origins before Enterprise was canned completely.

Discovery can fill in those origins and if "Controland" is the proto-borg and he ends up getting lost in the past in the DQ, disconnected from Control, running amok almost insane and without the ability to remember what its purpose is, controland explodes into a cloud of nanites without direction and everything nearby is assimilated by accident and over the course of a few weeks the entire planet, its people and ships are all converted as a means to regain the ability to function, learn, process, direct and control. Wthout it memories from control itself, it is unaware of its origins or the mission. a new directive is created.. to create a central control point, a queen and from there it has everything it needs once more.

it keeps the Borg as a formidable threat and it's creation is just as disturbing like its ability to assimilate other species.

angrytarg · March 2019

mirrorchaos wrote: »

Every story needs a starting point, even the Borg origins will need to be explained at some point. season 5 of enterprise was expected to reveal the Borg origins before Enterprise was canned completely.

Discovery can fill in those origins and if "Controland" is the proto-borg and he ends up getting lost in the past in the DQ, disconnected from Control, running amok almost insane and without the ability to remember what its purpose is, controland explodes into a cloud of nanites without direction and everything nearby is assimilated by accident and over the course of a few weeks the entire planet, its people and ships are all converted as a means to regain the ability to function, learn, process, direct and control. Wthout it memories from control itself, it is unaware of its origins or the mission. a new directive is created.. to create a central control point, a queen and from there it has everything it needs once more.

it keeps the Borg as a formidable threat and it's creation is just as disturbing like its ability to assimilate other species.

That would be a total retcon of what we already know, though.

We already know that what became the Borg was a humanoid species trying to augment themselves with technology to the point they grew overdependant and couldn't survive without it. This was the little social commentary in them. Unless they get rewritten to generic vampire zombies, Control cannot start the collective by forcefully or accidentally infecting someone or something.

legendarylycan · March 2019

unless controland ended up comatose on impact wherever he/it/whatever ends up, said humanoid species finds him, reverse-engineers cybernetics from the nanotech swarming through his body, the over-dependency happens over however long a time, then something happens to awaken controland - sans full memories due to corruption from the crash or whatever deposited him in the DQ - who then takes full control of every bit of cybertech derived from those nanites - which would be nearly the entire population by that point if not the entire population

viola - the borg are born, and something like that would explain seven's comment in Dragon's Teeth about the borg's records from 900 years prior being 'fragmentary'

thegrandnagus1 · March 2019

I enjoyed the episode. As far as the Borg's origins, the Borg that went back in time in First Contact were trying to contact the Borg from that era in the Delta quadrant. So the Borg already existed in the Trek universe prior to Discovery era.

thegrandnagus1 · March 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

I enjoyed the episode. As far as the Borg's origins, the Borg that went back in time in First Contact were trying to contact the Borg from that era in the Delta quadrant. So the Borg already existed in the Trek universe prior to Discovery era.

Sure, but that doesn't stop Control/Leland from being sent back in time 1,000 years into the past, and into the Delta Quadrant, to become the first Borg.

Not saying I want that to happen, I don't, but it isn't impossible.

I think I figured it out: Burnham is the first Borg Queen.

theboxisred · March 2019

I was going to let it go, but I have to get it out or it will back up.

Star Trek: Discovery, Season 2, Episode 11, REMEMBER THE BORG??!11?!!!!

Even if it's not the Borg, they are trying to cash in on the Borg.

If it happened once in a while it would be no big deal. Call backs are fun and interesting. But every kuphing episode?

God, I want to punch this show.

jonsills · March 2019

I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

mustrumridcully0 · March 2019

A lot of people are latching on the Borg parallels, but I think that's more of a red herring. The motivation behind the AI is something else than what motivated the Borg.
If the writers however reused some Borg imaginary intentionally, that was very clever of them.

legendarylycan · March 2019

oh, it probably will be...and it wouldn't be the first time humanity was responsible for creating the borg *cough*legacy*cough*

legendarylycan · March 2019

no...they didn't

ezri is a mary sue, ezri's SHIP is a mary sue, and...catoms - that is all

thegrandnagus1 · March 2019

jonsills wrote: »

I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

ryan218 · March 2019

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

thegrandnagus1 · March 2019

ryan218 wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

You have got to be joking with that reply. You are saying that the proof Leland wasn't assimilated is because he was speaking/acting out of character. Did you watch literally any episode of Trek where someone was assimilated and spoke afterwards? They ALL spoke out of character after being assimilated. Locutus had Picard's memories, but he absolutely did not speak/act like Picard.

ryan218 · March 2019

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

You have got to be joking with that reply. You are saying that the proof Leland wasn't assimilated is because he was speaking/acting out of character. Did you watch literally any episode of Trek where someone was assimilated and spoke afterwards? They ALL spoke out of character after being assimilated. Locutus had Picard's memories, but he absolutely did not speak/act like Picard.

Locutus wasn't trying to infiltrate the USS Enterprise - Control was trying to infiltrate the Section 31 ship.

thegrandnagus1 · March 2019

ryan218 wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

You have got to be joking with that reply. You are saying that the proof Leland wasn't assimilated is because he was speaking/acting out of character. Did you watch literally any episode of Trek where someone was assimilated and spoke afterwards? They ALL spoke out of character after being assimilated. Locutus had Picard's memories, but he absolutely did not speak/act like Picard.

Locutus wasn't trying to infiltrate the USS Enterprise - Control was trying to infiltrate the Section 31 ship.

It doesn't matter whether he was or not. A Borg drone literally cannot "act" like a normal unassimilated person. So you are actually arguing this the wrong way. Your argument shouldn't be Leland wasn't assimilated because he was acting strange. Your argument should be Leland wasn't assimilated because he was acting too NORMAL to be a Borg.

Of course, in this specific instance I got the impression that rather than simply being a drone (to use Borg terms) the AI was actually speaking through him (more like the queen taking control of a specific drone to have conversations with people). Again, I don't think this is really Borg related, but I also think some people are being overly dismissive of the possibility.

theboxisred · March 2019

It's Borg related even if it isn't.
That is what Discovery does. When it's not a call-back it's an implied call-back because REMEMBER WHY YOU LIKE THE STAR TRAK?

They really should just try to write good Star Trek, just for a change of pace.

thegrandnagus1 · March 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

theboxisred wrote: »

It's Borg related even if it isn't.
That is what Discovery does. When it's not a call-back it's an implied call-back because REMEMBER WHY YOU LIKE THE STAR TRAK?

They really should just try to write good Star Trek, just for a change of pace.

Yes, how dare a show based on an established series reuse elements from said established series instead of just making up new things that never get mentioned in any other show.

I remember when people used to demand sequels and such use elements from the old shows, nowadays everyone seems hellbent on trying to make everyone forget everything before it even exists. This recent "abject hatred of anything that came before" is mind boggling nonsensical to the idea of series as a whole.

Especially in Star Trek. A series often criticized, even by its own fanbase, for not following up aliens, factions, and plot events, from past episodes/shows, and instead endlessly making up new things only to dump them and never mention them again, creating a wide ocean of Trek lore that is mostly as deep as a small puddle of water.

Discovery is honestly closer to what Enterprise should have been, and what future shows should be, a series that relishes and drowns itself in the aliens, factions, and characters from past shows, expanding on what has already been established, instead of mindlessly churning out new things no one cares about, and no one will remember.

There is no need to strawman this. Yes, there is nothing wrong with writers picking up plot points from other shows. But there is an obvious difference between picking up some lose end and exploring it more, and doing the Borg again for the millionth time. Don't pretend that all re-use of stories are equal.

thegrandnagus1 · April 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

There is no need to strawman this. Yes, there is nothing wrong with writers picking up plot points from other shows. But there is an obvious difference between picking up some lose end and exploring it more, and doing the Borg again for the millionth time. Don't pretend that all re-use of stories are equal.

This assumes that they are reusing the Borg again, which there really isn't any evidence of.

I agree, but it seems the conversation was hypothetical, for the sake of discussion. If they ARE doing the Borg, it's ok/not ok because (insert points here). That is the context of my reply.

thegrandnagus1 · April 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

I agree, but it seems the conversation was hypothetical, for the sake of discussion. If they ARE doing the Borg, it's ok/not ok because (insert points here). That is the context of my reply.

Even if they are doing the Borg, the whole "humanity created the Borg" thing has existed since WAY before them, and been the subject of several different books/comics/games.

I'm not exactly going to fault them for taking what has, largely, become the go to explanation in the fandom, and making it the official one. At this rate, it will still be a better story then the Destiny novels at least.

Yeah, I'm aware of some of the origin stories. As a matter of personal taste, I find the whole "humans created everything" (Borg, Xenomorphs, anything else that used to be mysterious and interesting) to be boring. But more than simply boring, it takes a huge universe full of mysterious things, and makes it a small world where they all came from the same place. Of course, this is purely subjective taste, and my taste is no more right than anyone else's.

jonsills · April 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

I agree, but it seems the conversation was hypothetical, for the sake of discussion. If they ARE doing the Borg, it's ok/not ok because (insert points here). That is the context of my reply.

Even if they are doing the Borg, the whole "humanity created the Borg" thing has existed since WAY before them, and been the subject of several different books/comics/games.

I'm not exactly going to fault them for taking what has, largely, become the go to explanation in the fandom, and making it the official one.

I will, should they go that route. Because the explanation is a stupid one, and takes agency away from both the Borg and whatever their origin might be. (For myself, I'd prefer it remain a mystery. Not everything needs to be explained in plain text. As long as we never encounter the Third Borg Dynasty, I'm fine.)

theboxisred · April 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

theboxisred wrote: »

It's Borg related even if it isn't.
That is what Discovery does. When it's not a call-back it's an implied call-back because REMEMBER WHY YOU LIKE THE STAR TRAK?

They really should just try to write good Star Trek, just for a change of pace.

Yes, how dare a show based on an established series reuse elements from said established series instead of just making up new things that never get mentioned in any other show.

I remember when people used to demand sequels and such use elements from the old shows, nowadays everyone seems hellbent on trying to make everyone forget everything before it even exists. This recent "abject hatred of anything that came before" is mind boggling nonsensical to the idea of series as a whole.

Especially in Star Trek. A series often criticized, even by its own fanbase, for not following up aliens, factions, and plot events, from past episodes/shows, and instead endlessly making up new things only to dump them and never mention them again, creating a wide ocean of Trek lore that is mostly as deep as a small puddle of water.

Discovery is honestly closer to what Enterprise should have been, and what future shows should be, a series that relishes and drowns itself in the aliens, factions, and characters from past shows, expanding on what has already been established, instead of mindlessly churning out new things no one cares about, and no one will remember.

This is honestly why I am so excited for all the newly announced Star Trek works. They aren't just another TOS, or just another TNG, with a ship and a crew going out on adventures of the week. Instead, they are opting for more expansions on already existing Trek lore
-Ceti Alpha V: Expanding on Khan's struggles on said planet(assuming it get made)
-Starfleet Academy: Showing us the kinds of trials and tribulations most of the character we know had to go through to get where they were in the shows
-Section 31: Finally giving us a look at Section 31 from their own perspective, rather then from the perspective of normal Starfleet officers.
-Lower Decks: Giving us a view on what the no name basic crewmen we see walking around the halls in other shows, but never really get any interaction with.

It isn't just mindless expansion, with forgettable new aliens, but rather an attempt to add depth to various parts of the fairly shallow lore that comprises most of Trek.

You're inferring. That's not on me.

It's one thing to explore that which came before. It's quite another to cheapen it at every opportunity.

Enter Star Trak: Discovery and, to be fair, anything else the JJ Kurtzman Hack Machine touches.

theboxisred · April 2019

somtaawkhar wrote: »

theboxisred wrote: »

It's one thing to explore that which came before. It's quite another to cheapen it at every opportunity.

And what have they done exactly to cheapen anything in Discovery?

Super Secret Section 31 announcing their presence with distinct adornments and being written more like Special Forces than Black Ops.

Taking Mental Defective Spock to a planet of telepaths from a planet of telepaths so they can telepathic a fix and in the process cheapening Spock, Vulcans, Sarek, the Talosians, Vina, and Pike for the sake of having some effects shots. indistinct images and lens flares are a thing, yo.

Making the Mirror Universe a literal mirror image and its light dimmer because, "ooh, aren't we clever!"

Changing Harry Mudd from unscrupulous semi-comedic pest to Villainous Villain of Villainy!!!11!!1!

Chris Pike, originally a solid Starship Captain, is now a doormat. He let's Mike Burnham walk all over him in front of his crew.

Klingons. A once passionate and animated people now reduced, except when fighting, to mumbling their way through insurance documents for all the passion they display.

I'd go on but I grow weary of repeating myself. It's all stuff I've covered In threads elsewhere, as well.

Discovery is a bad Star Trek show. The best way to save it would be to have it's final scene blur and fade to reveal an eight-year-old Mike Burnham in the year 2433 getting a failing grade on her History Holo-Report because, as her instructor states, it was obvious that she allowed a Bad Robot to produce the report for her.

Star Trek Discovery Season 02, Episode 11: "Perpetual Infinity" (Spoilers)

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