test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Star Trek Discovery Season 02, Episode 11: "Perpetual Infinity" (Spoilers)

mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
So as I expected, Control "assimilated" "Leeland".

Things I am not entirely sure about:
Are we fighting future or present Control?

What still seems unexplained is why the Suite has all the abilities it has - is it all due to the Time Crystal and its special time-weird phenomena?

The way Dr.Burnham is alwas dragged back into the future reminds me a bit of DS9's episode Visitor, except Sisko's anchor point in time was his son, and it wasn't static, where as Dr. Burnham is always drawn back to the future.

If Leeland really found Dr. Burnham's corpse, does that mean she'll eventually make it back to the time she left, to die there?

So is the reason the Discovery is sitting around for 1,000 years in Calypso so she can pick up Dr. Burnham and then maybe use the Mycelium Network to get her back to the present? Is Zora in any way related to the Sphere Data or Control? Or is she the "anti-Control" program - an AI that basically does the same as the Sphere, collect Data and get the same "inspiration" as Control did with the Sphere Data, but direct into something benevolent?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
«13

Comments

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    Well, I will not rule out the possibility that they will link Control to the Borg. But I hope they are not trying to make Control part of the creation mythos behind the Borg.

    Control's motivation would need to change considerably however to turn into the Borg, since the Borg have no intention of killing all organic life. Of course, in VOY it is stated that the Borg lost a lot of information about the past, so maybe the Borg don't even remember their original goals. if Control is permanently barred from the Sphere Data, it might decide to collect the data itself the "Long way", creating the Borg.

    That said, I could see that Control is using Borg technology. There are two avenues where it could have access to it:
    1) The Sphere data might contain information about the Borg, and future Control might have send enough information back so that present-day Control can replicate it.
    2) Dr. Phlox studied Borg nanotechnology in the ENT episode with the Borg. It is not unlikely that the data is still in Starfleet and Section 31 archives, and maybe present day Control reused some of that.

    That said, nanites are not Borg-specific, as far as we know. Wesley experimented with already existing medical nanites, IIRC.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    Also, the Borg use "Species 5618" as the designation for humans, meaning they encountered them a lot later after their creation. So unless the crew manages to utterly wipe out Control's memories and manages to strand it in the past and in the Delta Quadrant, it's very unlikely (and thank the Great Bird for that) that it's a proto-Borg, unless CBS is up for some more unnecessary retcon.

    That said, it could be possible Control became homicidal and self-aware due to receiving some incomplete data from future Borg and "assimilated" it to gain some of their abilities, like assimilating nanites, but not their goals and "ideology". And "struggle is pointless" could be a slight corruption of the original catchphrase as a result of missing data.


    Also, I applaud Tyler for taking more than 2 seconds to spot Control!Leland and spending 5 seconds looking at nothing for a dramatic shot, and then spending even more time before drawing a phaser. Our Section 31 secret agent, everyone!
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • kekvinkekvin Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    ENT was soppose to do the borg origin story. If this is one I like
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    I think the line is pure coincidence. It's one used by oppressors throughout history, after all - an attempt to sap the will of any resistance movement by proclaiming their efforts useless, as the oppressor will win in the end anyway. (Spoiler: They're usually wrong.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    My understanding of Control is that future Control infected 23rd Century Control through infected Airiam to make it more in line with its future programming. 23rd Century Control needs the Sphere data to further evolve as an AI since the sphere collected a ton of information on every subject including AI.

    As with others, I hope Discovery stays as far away as possible from the Destiny novels. The origin of the Borg should have absolutely nothing to do with humans and time travel.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    One more thing, too:

    Why does Discovery have torpedo launchers in its warp nacelles in this episode?
    That's one of the worst placements you can have for a weapon that destructive on a ship of Starfleet design! Something goes wrong and a premature detonation happens and BAM! Your mean to escape at warp speed is crippled and the saucer gets some serious damage on its sides as well as it's just besides the direct lines of fire.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    One more thing, too:

    Why does Discovery have torpedo launchers in its warp nacelles in this episode?
    That's one of the worst placements you can have for a weapon that destructive on a ship of Starfleet design! Something goes wrong and a premature detonation happens and BAM! Your mean to escape at warp speed is crippled and the saucer gets some serious damage on its sides as well as it's just besides the direct lines of fire.

    I was wondering the same thing. I thought the times of wonky weapon placement due to erroneously copying a special effect into a still frame were over.

    Also, I really hope DSC stays away from the Borg. You can't kill a concept more to death than this.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    starkaos wrote: »
    The origin of the Borg should have absolutely nothing to do with humans and time travel.
    The origins of the Borg should be left a mystery anyway. That's what makes them scarier. Once you remove this mystery, for any memorable creature, you make it less scary because the explanation is guaranteed to let a varying number of people down.

    Remember how the Xenomorphs were actually made by an overly dramatic, creepy android with a god complex and incestuous tones towards his own line of "brothers", who managed to wipe out most of the Space Jockeys (who actually look like handsome Ghostbusters marshmallow men beneath those suits, BTW) with space mutagenic wasps and start fully producing the Aliens because of incredibly stupid colonists making all the worst possible decisions allowing him to freely wander the galaxy?

    Yeah, I wished I didn't remember either.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    Every story needs a starting point, even the Borg origins will need to be explained at some point. season 5 of enterprise was expected to reveal the Borg origins before Enterprise was canned completely.

    Discovery can fill in those origins and if "Controland" is the proto-borg and he ends up getting lost in the past in the DQ, disconnected from Control, running amok almost insane and without the ability to remember what its purpose is, controland explodes into a cloud of nanites without direction and everything nearby is assimilated by accident and over the course of a few weeks the entire planet, its people and ships are all converted as a means to regain the ability to function, learn, process, direct and control. Wthout it memories from control itself, it is unaware of its origins or the mission. a new directive is created.. to create a central control point, a queen and from there it has everything it needs once more.

    it keeps the Borg as a formidable threat and it's creation is just as disturbing like its ability to assimilate other species.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    Every story needs a starting point, even the Borg origins will need to be explained at some point. season 5 of enterprise was expected to reveal the Borg origins before Enterprise was canned completely.

    Discovery can fill in those origins and if "Controland" is the proto-borg and he ends up getting lost in the past in the DQ, disconnected from Control, running amok almost insane and without the ability to remember what its purpose is, controland explodes into a cloud of nanites without direction and everything nearby is assimilated by accident and over the course of a few weeks the entire planet, its people and ships are all converted as a means to regain the ability to function, learn, process, direct and control. Wthout it memories from control itself, it is unaware of its origins or the mission. a new directive is created.. to create a central control point, a queen and from there it has everything it needs once more.

    it keeps the Borg as a formidable threat and it's creation is just as disturbing like its ability to assimilate other species.

    That would be a total retcon of what we already know, though.

    We already know that what became the Borg was a humanoid species trying to augment themselves with technology to the point they grew overdependant and couldn't survive without it. This was the little social commentary in them. Unless they get rewritten to generic vampire zombies, Control cannot start the collective by forcefully or accidentally infecting someone or something.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    unless controland ended up comatose on impact wherever he/it/whatever ends up, said humanoid species finds him, reverse-engineers cybernetics from the nanotech swarming through his body, the over-dependency happens over however long a time, then something happens to awaken controland - sans full memories due to corruption from the crash or whatever deposited him in the DQ - who then takes full control of every bit of cybertech derived from those nanites - which would be nearly the entire population by that point if not the entire population

    viola - the borg are born, and something like that would explain seven's comment in Dragon's Teeth about the borg's records from 900 years prior being 'fragmentary'​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I enjoyed the episode. As far as the Borg's origins, the Borg that went back in time in First Contact were trying to contact the Borg from that era in the Delta quadrant. So the Borg already existed in the Trek universe prior to Discovery era.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    I enjoyed the episode. As far as the Borg's origins, the Borg that went back in time in First Contact were trying to contact the Borg from that era in the Delta quadrant. So the Borg already existed in the Trek universe prior to Discovery era.
    Sure, but that doesn't stop Control/Leland from being sent back in time 1,000 years into the past, and into the Delta Quadrant, to become the first Borg.

    Not saying I want that to happen, I don't, but it isn't impossible.

    I think I figured it out: Burnham is the first Borg Queen.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 450 Arc User
    I was going to let it go, but I have to get it out or it will back up.

    Star Trek: Discovery, Season 2, Episode 11, REMEMBER THE BORG??!11?!!!!

    Even if it's not the Borg, they are trying to cash in on the Borg.

    If it happened once in a while it would be no big deal. Call backs are fun and interesting. But every kuphing episode?

    God, I want to punch this show.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    A lot of people are latching on the Borg parallels, but I think that's more of a red herring. The motivation behind the AI is something else than what motivated the Borg.
    If the writers however reused some Borg imaginary intentionally, that was very clever of them.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    oh, it probably will be...and it wouldn't be the first time humanity was responsible for creating the borg *cough*legacy*cough*​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    no...they didn't

    ezri is a mary sue, ezri's SHIP is a mary sue, and...catoms - that is all​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

    For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

    For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

    Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    ryan218 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

    For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

    Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

    You have got to be joking with that reply. You are saying that the proof Leland wasn't assimilated is because he was speaking/acting out of character. Did you watch literally any episode of Trek where someone was assimilated and spoke afterwards? They ALL spoke out of character after being assimilated. Locutus had Picard's memories, but he absolutely did not speak/act like Picard.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

    For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

    Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

    You have got to be joking with that reply. You are saying that the proof Leland wasn't assimilated is because he was speaking/acting out of character. Did you watch literally any episode of Trek where someone was assimilated and spoke afterwards? They ALL spoke out of character after being assimilated. Locutus had Picard's memories, but he absolutely did not speak/act like Picard.

    Locutus wasn't trying to infiltrate the USS Enterprise - Control was trying to infiltrate the Section 31 ship.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    I, ah, don't believe you understand how story arcs work. This season, the Big Bad is a nascent AI programmed to treat everything as a threat. There will, inevitably, be some points of comparison to the Borg, but it's no more indicative of Control being Borg than the fact that the Klingons and Romulans both have empires is indicative that they're actually the same species. And as it's a season-long story arc, you're going to see Control continue to be a problem until it's defeated.

    For the record, I don't "really" think this is about the Borg either. However, your argument is disingenuous. There have been plenty of "evil computer" stories in Trek that were not compared to the Borg. This specific story actually has an "evil" AI capable of "assimilating" people, and you conveniently avoided that in your post.

    Except Control didn't "assimilate" Leland, it killed him and took over his body. Control doesn't seem to have any of Leland's memories, judging from how it managed to attract the suspicions of both Georgiou and Tyler by speaking out of character (not just acting it). The Borg absorb the knowledge of the drones, Control appears to just seize Leland. The nanites are the only real similarity, and we know Starfleet has nanites in TNG.

    You have got to be joking with that reply. You are saying that the proof Leland wasn't assimilated is because he was speaking/acting out of character. Did you watch literally any episode of Trek where someone was assimilated and spoke afterwards? They ALL spoke out of character after being assimilated. Locutus had Picard's memories, but he absolutely did not speak/act like Picard.

    Locutus wasn't trying to infiltrate the USS Enterprise - Control was trying to infiltrate the Section 31 ship.

    It doesn't matter whether he was or not. A Borg drone literally cannot "act" like a normal unassimilated person. So you are actually arguing this the wrong way. Your argument shouldn't be Leland wasn't assimilated because he was acting strange. Your argument should be Leland wasn't assimilated because he was acting too NORMAL to be a Borg.

    Of course, in this specific instance I got the impression that rather than simply being a drone (to use Borg terms) the AI was actually speaking through him (more like the queen taking control of a specific drone to have conversations with people). Again, I don't think this is really Borg related, but I also think some people are being overly dismissive of the possibility.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 450 Arc User
    It's Borg related even if it isn't.
    That is what Discovery does. When it's not a call-back it's an implied call-back because REMEMBER WHY YOU LIKE THE STAR TRAK?

    They really should just try to write good Star Trek, just for a change of pace.
Sign In or Register to comment.