I'm suggesting Cryptic should develop more Foundry-like missions to compensate for the loss of more variable content (while also finally bringing this to the console audience.) And to be clear, I'm not suggesting ports (just adopting design lessons for what the STO format is capable of from Foundry missions.)
Compensation muhahahahahah.
Cryptic will keep on developing the stuff they like the way they like it.
Act 1: It was a dark, stormy night when a major conference was held. The conference went bad but you managed to save the day.
Act 2: Some big and powerful (Necrons and their pawns, Bug monsters, Space Zombies, Liberal temporal hippies, the Nonsense Empire, Sela the Undying etc), come up with something to destroy everything you hold dear.
Act 3: When all seems lost someone detroubles the fucupulater in order to repickle the babble. You have to help him to pick some packatan pocks from the Puck system.
Act 4: It was all a rouse, the current big bad managed to attack the UIP (Utterly Important Planet). You arrive alongside a massive fleet and watch a lightshow and fireworks for 20 mins while the devs throw everything and the kitchen sink in your generic direction.
Act 5: The big bad was, in reality a nice guy and it was all silly misunderstanding. You make peace and everything is cool. Unfortunately, renegade elements (Icon Necron the Half handed, Ketracel intolerant bugs, the Zombie Queen, The Strong Minded Weaks, Dinos with freakin lasers on their backs) of the big bad refuse to make peace. This way the STFs don't feel so out of place.
Go through all the official missions and you will see the pattern.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Entering into a Foundry mission through the top 3 system is the epitome of the basic definition of exploring/exploration. And you'll find that contemporary examples of exploration involved people finding things that other people have made or were formed through specific historical/geologic/evolutionary processes (not RNG). Procedural generation is an entirely artificial criterion used to define a genre of games as opposed to the act of exploration in the original (ie. real) sense of the word.
I'll note again this has nothing to do with the Foundry as the reasons for removing it had more to do with functional replacement through the R+D system (coupled with bare content design in total which didn't provide much of a counter argument for its removal) than technical infeasibility of further maintenance (in spite of what's here in the Foundry.) See. the announcement blog then. You'll also note in that blog that Cryptic made the direct connection that the Foundry was serving as the direct functional replacement for the content contained in the old exploration system.
See thread title: Foundry sunset.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
STO begann als Abonnement-Spiel. Warum hat man nicht darüber nachgedacht, diese Option für die Foundry zurückzuholen? Rein optional und fakultativ, versteht sich und zu moderaten Preisen. Hätte man das ordentlich kommuniziert, ich wette, die Bereitschaft der Foundry-Autoren zu diesem Experiment wäre vorhanden gewesen. Es würde dem Zahlungswilligen exklusive zusätzliche Inhalte bieten und damit auch den Reiz, im Spiel weiterzumachen. Damit hätte man eine anständige Bedieneroberfläche für die Foundry erstellen können und wer weiß, Geld für die Weiterentwicklung des eigentlich Spiels wäre auch noch abgefallen. Der Impuls müsste natürlich von den Amerikanern ausgehen. Aber die bisherigen EULA's für die Erstellung von Foundry-Missionen waren glasklar, da hätte es nur einiger Anpassungen bedurft und schon wäre man wieder im Rennen gewesen. Und ganz ehrlich, die Spieler, die sich hier zu Wort melden mit dem Argument "Wir brauchen die Foundry nicht". Reisende soll man nicht aufhalten. Wer keine Foundrys spielen möchte, müsste ja auch nicht dafür bezahlen. ABER: unter marktwirtschaftlichen Gesichtspunkten betrachtet glaube ich, dass sich ein großer Teil der Spieler darauf eingelassen hätte. Gerade dann, wenn man das Foundry-Abonnement mit dem ZEN-System verknüpft hätte.
STO begann als Abonnement-Spiel. Warum hat man nicht darüber nachgedacht, diese Option für die Foundry zurückzuholen? Rein optional und fakultativ, versteht sich und zu moderaten Preisen. Hätte man das ordentlich kommuniziert, ich wette, die Bereitschaft der Foundry-Autoren zu diesem Experiment wäre vorhanden gewesen. Es würde dem Zahlungswilligen exklusive zusätzliche Inhalte bieten und damit auch den Reiz, im Spiel weiterzumachen. Damit hätte man eine anständige Bedieneroberfläche für die Foundry erstellen können und wer weiß, Geld für die Weiterentwicklung des eigentlich Spiels wäre auch noch abgefallen. Der Impuls müsste natürlich von den Amerikanern ausgehen. Aber die bisherigen EULA's für die Erstellung von Foundry-Missionen waren glasklar, da hätte es nur einiger Anpassungen bedurft und schon wäre man wieder im Rennen gewesen. Und ganz ehrlich, die Spieler, die sich hier zu Wort melden mit dem Argument "Wir brauchen die Foundry nicht". Reisende soll man nicht aufhalten. Wer keine Foundrys spielen möchte, müsste ja auch nicht dafür bezahlen. ABER: unter marktwirtschaftlichen Gesichtspunkten betrachtet glaube ich, dass sich ein großer Teil der Spieler darauf eingelassen hätte. Gerade dann, wenn man das Foundry-Abonnement mit dem ZEN-System verknüpft hätte.
Two things to consider:
1) There were already plenty of people that found it questionable that Cryptic would have players "do Cryptic's job" of providing content for Star Trek Online. If Cryptic is now taking money directly from creators and users of the system, it feels even more questionable. I could actually see that many creators would have no problem shelling out Zen for the ability to keep creating, but how many players would pay for the privilege of playing these missions? If the game as a whole couldn't survive on subscriptions, a subsystem of the game is not likely to fare better.
2) More importantly perhaps - if Cryptic's Foundry usage number systems would suggest the system could pay for itself, I think the wouldn't have gone the route they are going now. Of course, they could underestimate how many players still play STO because they know there is the "potential" of creating or playing Foundry content, they just never get around to it, but that would be very speculative. They probably have a good idea of what they could do with their programmer time if they didn't spend in the Foundry, and how many players such features have attracted in the past.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Just an idea - a completely separate, offline, single-player version of STO for them foundry missions. It doesn't matter for me if it'd be freeware or not. I'd gladly pay for it.
Star Trek Offline lol
Problem is, I don't know who or where should I speak this (if you do, please don't hesitate). And we all know that resistance to The Change is futile.
Only in the way most removed from the meaning of the word exploration as it means to Star Trek. Though Star Trek had very little in the way of exploration itself outside of ENT and TOS.
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations"
Encountering new worlds, civilization, and their granular mode of operation (see. people) has been part of every trek series.
I never made the claim procedural generation defined exploration. Only that games generally use such systems as a means to create exploration, and that those systems aren't very good.
And yet the alternative of blind content discovery through the foundry didn't count. You said this was not "real exploration." Considering how you define the rest of trek beyond ENT and TOS I don't think you're applying a consistent definition (either within gaming or American English.) It's simply a moving target, meaning whatever you wish at a given moment to perpetuate a tangent for the sake of minimizing the loss of the Foundry (ie. that a genuine exploration mechanic isn't be lost and that the game doesn't have a functional substitute for those style of missions [nevermind their UGC origin].) This is where separating the loss of the Foundry from exploration and other problems in legacy systems is important for discussion as it can identify secondary ramifications for loosing the system for which there may be ways of compensating without prohibitive system updates [ex. use exploration-focused foundry missions as a proof of concept for Cryptic mission design, improve upon what's been done and continue innovating on STO's mission format.]
Just an idea - a completely separate, offline, single-player version of STO for them foundry missions. It doesn't matter for me if it'd be freeware or not. I'd gladly pay for it.
Star Trek Offline lol
Problem is, I don't know who or where should I speak this (if you do, please don't hesitate). And we all know that resistance to The Change is futile.
Cryptic already explored the idea of separating Foundry content into its own version STO. Unfortunately there's a few layers of problems which make the idea practically and technically infeasible (per Kael's Ten Forward Weekly episode dedicated to the subject.) The decision to remove the Foundry was not taken lightly and the team explored every possibility they could for trying to save it.
Never say never to the content coming back in some form at some undefined date in the future (they're saving all the data) but how this can be done is at present unclear (to say the least, from what we've been told.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Thank you for the reply, duncanidaho11!
I'm not saying about a separate server. but a separate game.
An offline, single player only, "clone" of STO. with all the resources on my local hard disk. Kinda like it is when doing story missons lone wolf. just with features like chat/mail/exchange/PvP/etc. disabled. I can't imagine it being THAT hard to do.
-...- I always take statements like "was not taken lightly" and "explored every possibility we could" with a grain... two grains of salt.
Let's keep the thread on the topic of the FOUNDRY, and not derail off into other systems of the game, please.
Also, there are folks still suggesting "solutions". Many of these have already been answered in the OP transcript. Please read it, or watch the video, before posting about any more "solutions". You should quickly realize that the shutdown is the solution. I hate to say that, and I don't mean to sound heartless about it, but #savethefoundry is not going to happen before April 11.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Let's keep the thread on the topic of the FOUNDRY, and not derail off into other systems of the game, please.
Also, there are folks still suggesting "solutions". Many of these have already been answered in the OP transcript. Please read it, or watch the video, before posting about any more "solutions". You should quickly realize that the shutdown is the solution. I hate to say that, and I don't mean to sound heartless about it, but #savethefoundry is not going to happen before April 11.
So, April 12th then...Got it!
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
@ambassadorkael#6946 is there any chance in this last month that former featured missions could be reinstated in the featured list for one last hurrah?
My mission "The Interwarp Experiment" (first featured 10/11/2013) was pulled off the featured list some time ago (minor bug fixes I think on some patch or another) and for some reason or another I don't think I ever asked to have it reinstated.
The only reason that this Thread hasn't been closed is because it is in GNN. Be certain that on April 11th (or 12th if in a generous mood) it will be.
Post edited by ltminns on
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Two things to consider:
1) There were already plenty of people that found it questionable that Cryptic would have players "do Cryptic's job" of providing content for Star Trek Online. If Cryptic is now taking money directly from creators and users of the system, it feels even more questionable. I could actually see that many creators would have no problem shelling out Zen for the ability to keep creating, but how many players would pay for the privilege of playing these missions? If the game as a whole couldn't survive on subscriptions, a subsystem of the game is not likely to fare better.
2) More importantly perhaps - if Cryptic's Foundry usage number systems would suggest the system could pay for itself, I think the wouldn't have gone the route they are going now. Of course, they could underestimate how many players still play STO because they know there is the "potential" of creating or playing Foundry content, they just never get around to it, but that would be very speculative. They probably have a good idea of what they could do with their programmer time if they didn't spend in the Foundry, and how many players such features have attracted in the past.
In regards to #1, Cryptic never did enough in the first place to support the Foundry authors by actually supporting the tool. In the six years I was away from the game they seriously could never add a "next" button so you could see mission #51+ on the list? I can't even imagine that functionality taking more than about an hour to program--half a day at the very most (if it requires more time than that it says more about the code being a mess than anything else). And, yes, it certainly was mentioned as a problem. A lot of things were mentioned as being problems, but back then nothing was done, and it seems nothing much was done since then.
There's kind of two aspects to this story at this point. One is that the Foundry is going away, but the other is that the Foundry never fully arrived in the first place. So, as far as authors paying to be allowed to use the tool... Well, in its current state and current level of support I'm not sure it's really worth paying for?
That's my main point about the Foundry though: Cryptic says it was essentially a failure, but how could it not be a failure when it never reached a mature point of development? The Foundry was never more than about three quarters done, and then it arguably started regressing pretty early on in its life.
I actually have somewhat mixed feelings about the Foundry situation. On the one hand it is sad all of these stories are going away. I guess that is my major feeling. But on the other hand, if they're not going to do anything but keep the Foundry on life support for another X years then maybe it makes sense to simply pull the plug.
The final thing to consider is that this announcement itself probably killed off a lot of the remaining interest in making missions. Even if they "change their mind", how many would have the confidence to spend dozens of hours making a mission when the Foundry was just recently on the chopping block? I'm sure there will always be a few, but a lot of people would be very reluctant to take that chance.
There is another solution, Cryptic could change their mind and thoroughly get behind the foundry. The response from the community would be overwhelmingly favourable I am sure, the goodwill and support, both in spreading the word that Cryptic are devs who listen to their playerbase and who now realise what a terrible mistake removing this would be for the long term health of the game, and financial support as the players switch the funding taps back on. However, I doubt that will happen. I would say though, it seems Cryptic have gone very quiet since last week, not many new announcements or general news, unless I missed it, I really don't think they expected this level of backlash, some of course, but not this much.
While I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, the truth is that isn't how business works and will not happen. Once a decision like this has been made, the ONLY thing that will change it is irrefutable proof that this will have a strongly negative impact on revenue - enough to change the math of resource allocation. Something like a large group of whales (100+ maybe, not sure how many this game has) signing their names to a petition to reverse the decision and committing not to spend until it is. Maybe a coordinated boycott/no logins for a week to prove seriousness?
That then turns into a waiting game, and the group will need to maintain their commitment, resisting whatever lure is brought forth (zen discount, special event, something) as response to prove they can't be bought off/distracted.
I don't foresee that happening, though I would be happy to be proven wrong.
There is another solution, Cryptic could change their mind and thoroughly get behind the foundry. The response from the community would be overwhelmingly favourable I am sure, the goodwill and support, both in spreading the word that Cryptic are devs who listen to their playerbase and who now realise what a terrible mistake removing this would be for the long term health of the game, and financial support as the players switch the funding taps back on. However, I doubt that will happen. I would say though, it seems Cryptic have gone very quiet since last week, not many new announcements or general news, unless I missed it, I really don't think they expected this level of backlash, some of course, but not this much.
While I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, the truth is that isn't how business works and will not happen. Once a decision like this has been made, the ONLY thing that will change it is irrefutable proof that this will have a strongly negative impact on revenue - enough to change the math of resource allocation. Something like a large group of whales (100+ maybe, not sure how many this game has) signing their names to a petition to reverse the decision and committing not to spend until it is. Maybe a coordinated boycott/no logins for a week to prove seriousness?
That then turns into a waiting game, and the group will need to maintain their commitment, resisting whatever lure is brought forth (zen discount, special event, something) as response to prove they can't be bought off/distracted.
I don't foresee that happening, though I would be happy to be proven wrong.
This is a far better worded version of what I was stating a few pages back. To change the course of a business, hit the bottom line. Well said.
Comments
Compensation muhahahahahah.
Cryptic will keep on developing the stuff they like the way they like it.
Act 1: It was a dark, stormy night when a major conference was held. The conference went bad but you managed to save the day.
Act 2: Some big and powerful (Necrons and their pawns, Bug monsters, Space Zombies, Liberal temporal hippies, the Nonsense Empire, Sela the Undying etc), come up with something to destroy everything you hold dear.
Act 3: When all seems lost someone detroubles the fucupulater in order to repickle the babble. You have to help him to pick some packatan pocks from the Puck system.
Act 4: It was all a rouse, the current big bad managed to attack the UIP (Utterly Important Planet). You arrive alongside a massive fleet and watch a lightshow and fireworks for 20 mins while the devs throw everything and the kitchen sink in your generic direction.
Act 5: The big bad was, in reality a nice guy and it was all silly misunderstanding. You make peace and everything is cool. Unfortunately, renegade elements (Icon Necron the Half handed, Ketracel intolerant bugs, the Zombie Queen, The Strong Minded Weaks, Dinos with freakin lasers on their backs) of the big bad refuse to make peace. This way the STFs don't feel so out of place.
Go through all the official missions and you will see the pattern.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Marriam-Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploring
Entering into a Foundry mission through the top 3 system is the epitome of the basic definition of exploring/exploration. And you'll find that contemporary examples of exploration involved people finding things that other people have made or were formed through specific historical/geologic/evolutionary processes (not RNG). Procedural generation is an entirely artificial criterion used to define a genre of games as opposed to the act of exploration in the original (ie. real) sense of the word.
I'll note again this has nothing to do with the Foundry as the reasons for removing it had more to do with functional replacement through the R+D system (coupled with bare content design in total which didn't provide much of a counter argument for its removal) than technical infeasibility of further maintenance (in spite of what's here in the Foundry.) See. the announcement blog then. You'll also note in that blog that Cryptic made the direct connection that the Foundry was serving as the direct functional replacement for the content contained in the old exploration system.
See thread title: Foundry sunset.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Original post from german community:
Two things to consider:
1) There were already plenty of people that found it questionable that Cryptic would have players "do Cryptic's job" of providing content for Star Trek Online. If Cryptic is now taking money directly from creators and users of the system, it feels even more questionable. I could actually see that many creators would have no problem shelling out Zen for the ability to keep creating, but how many players would pay for the privilege of playing these missions? If the game as a whole couldn't survive on subscriptions, a subsystem of the game is not likely to fare better.
2) More importantly perhaps - if Cryptic's Foundry usage number systems would suggest the system could pay for itself, I think the wouldn't have gone the route they are going now. Of course, they could underestimate how many players still play STO because they know there is the "potential" of creating or playing Foundry content, they just never get around to it, but that would be very speculative. They probably have a good idea of what they could do with their programmer time if they didn't spend in the Foundry, and how many players such features have attracted in the past.
Star Trek Offline lol
Problem is, I don't know who or where should I speak this (if you do, please don't hesitate). And we all know that resistance to The Change is futile.
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations"
Encountering new worlds, civilization, and their granular mode of operation (see. people) has been part of every trek series.
And yet the alternative of blind content discovery through the foundry didn't count. You said this was not "real exploration." Considering how you define the rest of trek beyond ENT and TOS I don't think you're applying a consistent definition (either within gaming or American English.) It's simply a moving target, meaning whatever you wish at a given moment to perpetuate a tangent for the sake of minimizing the loss of the Foundry (ie. that a genuine exploration mechanic isn't be lost and that the game doesn't have a functional substitute for those style of missions [nevermind their UGC origin].) This is where separating the loss of the Foundry from exploration and other problems in legacy systems is important for discussion as it can identify secondary ramifications for loosing the system for which there may be ways of compensating without prohibitive system updates [ex. use exploration-focused foundry missions as a proof of concept for Cryptic mission design, improve upon what's been done and continue innovating on STO's mission format.]
Cryptic already explored the idea of separating Foundry content into its own version STO. Unfortunately there's a few layers of problems which make the idea practically and technically infeasible (per Kael's Ten Forward Weekly episode dedicated to the subject.) The decision to remove the Foundry was not taken lightly and the team explored every possibility they could for trying to save it.
Never say never to the content coming back in some form at some undefined date in the future (they're saving all the data) but how this can be done is at present unclear (to say the least, from what we've been told.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'm not saying about a separate server. but a separate game.
An offline, single player only, "clone" of STO. with all the resources on my local hard disk. Kinda like it is when doing story missons lone wolf. just with features like chat/mail/exchange/PvP/etc. disabled. I can't imagine it being THAT hard to do.
-...- I always take statements like "was not taken lightly" and "explored every possibility we could" with a grain... two grains of salt.
Also, there are folks still suggesting "solutions". Many of these have already been answered in the OP transcript. Please read it, or watch the video, before posting about any more "solutions". You should quickly realize that the shutdown is the solution. I hate to say that, and I don't mean to sound heartless about it, but #savethefoundry is not going to happen before April 11.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
So, April 12th then...Got it!
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
(hides from BMM)
My mission "The Interwarp Experiment" (first featured 10/11/2013) was pulled off the featured list some time ago (minor bug fixes I think on some patch or another) and for some reason or another I don't think I ever asked to have it reinstated.
Better late than never?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
In regards to #1, Cryptic never did enough in the first place to support the Foundry authors by actually supporting the tool. In the six years I was away from the game they seriously could never add a "next" button so you could see mission #51+ on the list? I can't even imagine that functionality taking more than about an hour to program--half a day at the very most (if it requires more time than that it says more about the code being a mess than anything else). And, yes, it certainly was mentioned as a problem. A lot of things were mentioned as being problems, but back then nothing was done, and it seems nothing much was done since then.
There's kind of two aspects to this story at this point. One is that the Foundry is going away, but the other is that the Foundry never fully arrived in the first place. So, as far as authors paying to be allowed to use the tool... Well, in its current state and current level of support I'm not sure it's really worth paying for?
That's my main point about the Foundry though: Cryptic says it was essentially a failure, but how could it not be a failure when it never reached a mature point of development? The Foundry was never more than about three quarters done, and then it arguably started regressing pretty early on in its life.
I actually have somewhat mixed feelings about the Foundry situation. On the one hand it is sad all of these stories are going away. I guess that is my major feeling. But on the other hand, if they're not going to do anything but keep the Foundry on life support for another X years then maybe it makes sense to simply pull the plug.
The final thing to consider is that this announcement itself probably killed off a lot of the remaining interest in making missions. Even if they "change their mind", how many would have the confidence to spend dozens of hours making a mission when the Foundry was just recently on the chopping block? I'm sure there will always be a few, but a lot of people would be very reluctant to take that chance.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
While I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, the truth is that isn't how business works and will not happen. Once a decision like this has been made, the ONLY thing that will change it is irrefutable proof that this will have a strongly negative impact on revenue - enough to change the math of resource allocation. Something like a large group of whales (100+ maybe, not sure how many this game has) signing their names to a petition to reverse the decision and committing not to spend until it is. Maybe a coordinated boycott/no logins for a week to prove seriousness?
That then turns into a waiting game, and the group will need to maintain their commitment, resisting whatever lure is brought forth (zen discount, special event, something) as response to prove they can't be bought off/distracted.
I don't foresee that happening, though I would be happy to be proven wrong.
This is a far better worded version of what I was stating a few pages back. To change the course of a business, hit the bottom line. Well said.