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Star Trek Discovery Season 02, Episode 05: "Saints of Imperfection" (Spoiler Warning)

mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,549 Arc User
We get Tilly back, and not just her, but also Dr. Culber!

The effect of the ship partially submerged in the Mycelium Network was quite interesting. Surprised no one got caught by the barrier between realspace and mycelial space. I guess they ran out of redshirts on the bridge?

The explanation on how Culber got into the Mycelium Network is a bit ... vague, as are the complications in getting him back a bit convoluted.

Looks like Section 31 was a bit more recognized in the 23rd century than it was in the 24th century. I wonder if something happens that causes Section 31 to fall from grace in Discovery, or later in the planned Section 31 series?

Still no Spock, they seem to overdo the teasing in this season. It's not just Spock, it's also the anomalies that we still have very little idea about what they are. I don't write books or TV scripts, but I do run RPG campaigns, and I know it's dangerous to leave all the reveals and major breakthroughs to the end. On the other hand, we had a big breakthrough here - Culber is back!
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Comments

  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    OTOH, they seem to have begun the rehabilitation of Philippa. She still wants to see herself as the ruthless Emperor of Humanity - but she's willing to override orders so that she can save others, or at least save Michael. And it's pretty clear in context that S31 as an institution disapproves of such things.

    Given Adm. Cornwell's attitudes, I think I can also see the beginning of the end of S31. The day her court martial for war crimes begins is the day the organization either goes underground or dissolves, because she's clearly their sponsor in Starfleet. And with Philippa bucking their system, it might well mean that dissolution is the endgame.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 4,818 Arc User
    For a STO related comment, I'd like to know if we will be getting the new security officer's skirt as a Disco uniform option.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,269 Arc User
    edited February 15
    This episode felt too busy to me. Too much going on - saving Tilly, rescuing Culber, Section 31, the (continued Search for Spock), red angels.... could have shaved some of this off to better use the screen time. The last couple of episodes felt very "stuffed" to me - I hope they are just resolving loose ends early on to allow for focus on Spock and the Red Angel later on.

    General thoughts -
    • Michelle Yeoh steals the show (again) IMO. More I see her in this role, more I look forward to her solo Trek show.
    • Good to see Culber back - 600 Quatloos says this plays out as "he's Culber, but not really the same Culber".
    • Tachyons and the Red Angel - time traveller anyone? Whom could it be?
    • Would like to see more done with other characters - the bookend narratives by Burnham are getting overdone IMO.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,549 Arc User
    I think several of the last few episodes have been a bit busy. I actually found this one not too bad, because most of the story seemed genuinely focused on one thing - Getting Tilly out of the Mycelium Network. The Section31/Spock thing was a reasonably "B-Story" in that, I think.
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    I hope whoever first thought about casting Michelle Yeoh got a big fat pay day for that stroke of genius, she's magnetic in every single scene. I've really warmed to Pike as well, a great casting improvement can help turn a show around.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    We did spend some time here yelling at the people in the mycelial network to grab Culber and get the hell home, but when the solution to the problem was reached, I understood - in order for Tilly to have believably come up with the idea of using Culber's stored DNA in the cocoon, she (and we the audience) had to hear about how he wound up there in the first place and why he couldn't just cross the barrier and get home.

    I'm just glad they averted the Bury Your Gays trope. I really want these two to have a happy ending.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,801 Arc User
    No one picked up on the origins of 'Arena'. Section 31 was on Cestus III. Was Commodore Travers and company put there as a listening post for the Gorns?
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,640 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    No one picked up on the origins of 'Arena'. Section 31 was on Cestus III. Was Commodore Travers and company put there as a listening post for the Gorns?

    didnt Pike say he was up to his neck in alligators?
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    No one picked up on the origins of 'Arena'. Section 31 was on Cestus III. Was Commodore Travers and company put there as a listening post for the Gorns?

    didnt Pike say he was up to his neck in alligators?
    I don't think that was a Gorn reference, though, more of a reference to the old saying that "when you're up to your neck in alligators, it can be hard to remember that your initial job was to drain the swamp."
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    This episode felt too busy to me. Too much going on - saving Tilly, rescuing Culber, Section 31, the (continued Search for Spock), red angels.... could have shaved some of this off to better use the screen time. The last couple of episodes felt very "stuffed" to me - I hope they are just resolving loose ends early on to allow for focus on Spock and the Red Angel later on.

    General thoughts -
    • Michelle Yeoh steals the show (again) IMO. More I see her in this role, more I look forward to her solo Trek show.
    • Good to see Culber back - 600 Quatloos says this plays out as "he's Culber, but not really the same Culber".
    • Tachyons and the Red Angel - time traveller anyone? Whom could it be?
    • Would like to see more done with other characters - the bookend narratives by Burnham are getting overdone IMO.

    Was originally thinking that it would have been Mirror Culber since Culber was killed, but we don't know what happened to Mirror Culber.

    If the Red Angel is Iconian and a time traveler, then they don't operate under STO rules.

    It is interesting how everyone seems to know about Section 31 while we never hear a mention of them in Season 1 and there is only mention of a black badge being worn by a guard when Burnham first boarded the Discovery in prison garb. They could be a recent creation caused by the Klingon War or only gained resources during the war and were laying low before the war.

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,549 Arc User
    Actually, I was thinking for a while that the entity could be Mirror Lorca, because I didn't associate hostility with Culber. But in a Star Trek twist, the monster is merely a misunderstood individual trying to stay alive.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,564 Arc User
    Georgiou does seem to care about Michael, in some Terran manner. Her use of blackmail to force Leland to follow her play was straight out of the Terran manual as well.

    I love how Pike is reacting to Tyler, even though I actually like Tyler lol. It will be very interesting to see what happens when Hugh sees Tyler again, personally I'm hoping for Hugh being what Michael said he was this episode, and his forgiveness of Tyler becomes an example to the others.

    After all of this, I am more than ready to see Spock, its time for answers.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 4,818 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    After all of this, I am more than ready to see Spock, its time for answers.

    Based on the preview for next week Spock won't be in the next episode either.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,564 Arc User
    > @evilmark444 said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > After all of this, I am more than ready to see Spock, its time for answers.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Based on the preview for next week Spock won't be in the next episode either.

    Granted he isn't likely to be on Kaminar, he could still be in the episode though.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

    Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

    Robert Heinlein
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,265 Bug Hunter
    Who is this 'everybody' who seems to know about Section 31? Cornwall knows because (like Ross) she was the admiral in command of the front and SI reported to her.
    Ash knew vaguely of their existence in S1 because Starfleet Security would work more with SI than any other branch. He knows fully by S2 because he's part of it. Burnham knows for the same reason Sisko did, because she was told by someone who was recruited by them. Pike knows because he knows Layland and as S31 is a section within SI Pike obviously knows of them.

    DS9 does not make out like S31 is unknown, merely that Sisko doesn't know who they are. He obviously know who SI are but why would he know of all the sub-divisions in SI? He's in Command not Intelligence and (other than Slone) there's no members of SI on DS9. Bashir, in Medical, has even less reason to know of any sub-divisions in SI. Obviously some people know who they are, Like Ross or the people at SM who are receiving orders to redact Odo's file.

    S31 only refers to the provisions of Article 14 Section 31 that's in the Federation charter (as Slone and Cornwall point out, so it's not just in the Earth Starfleet charter) there's no need for them to exist all the time, SI only has to activate a sub-divisions when the current climate meets the criteria for A14S31.
    That's the only reason they aren't known commonly to anybody. They don't exist most of the time because there's no present threat that causes an activation of A14S31. TOS was in a state of cold war up until TUC, there were no major conflicts in TNG until Wolf 359.
    The Destruction of Vulcan, Klingon War, Wolf 359, and the Dominion War must have been enough for SI to enact A14S31 whereas skirmishes with Cardassians in TNG or Klingons in DS9 were nowhere near serious enough to bother with the paperwork.

    There's nothing in the show (DSC) that suggests the black badges are for S31 specifically and having SI officers on Disco is hardly making a sub-division of SI common knowledge.​​
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  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,176 Arc User
    This may be a unpopular opinion but i really want to see a star trek series with pike in command of the enterprise im really loving him.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,564 Arc User
    Artan have you been watching the show? We have multiple people on screen in canon identifying the black badge as Section 31, starting with Leland himself when he gave one to Georgiou with the words "welcome to Section 31". There is actually no on screen evidence that Starfleet Intelligence has any special identification.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

    Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

    Robert Heinlein
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,265 Bug Hunter
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Artan have you been watching the show? We have multiple people on screen in canon identifying the black badge as Section 31, starting with Leland himself when he gave one to Georgiou with the words "welcome to Section 31". There is actually no on screen evidence that Starfleet Intelligence has any special identification.

    I am aware of that. That doesn't suggest the black badge is exclusive to Section 31 any more than the circled 'E' is exclusive to Engineering (it's used by Operations as well). And departments get their own badges and S31 is only a part of SI, it's not a separate department. Hence why Layland is specifying which part he's recruiting her to.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,190 Arc User
    I enjoyed how tapping the commbadge was so mind-blowing. :D
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    edited February 17
    artan42 wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Artan have you been watching the show? We have multiple people on screen in canon identifying the black badge as Section 31, starting with Leland himself when he gave one to Georgiou with the words "welcome to Section 31". There is actually no on screen evidence that Starfleet Intelligence has any special identification.

    I am aware of that. That doesn't suggest the black badge is exclusive to Section 31 any more than the circled 'E' is exclusive to Engineering (it's used by Operations as well). And departments get their own badges and S31 is only a part of SI, it's not a separate department. Hence why Layland is specifying which part he's recruiting her to.​​

    Actually, it does. If the black badge was used by Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31, then Burnham and Tyler would have said Starfleet Intelligence instead of Section 31 since there are far more Starfleet Intelligence agents than Section 31 agents. The reason why Leland said Welcome to Section 31 is for the audience and due to Georgiou is from the Mirror Universe and doesn't know about Section 31.

    Is there any evidence that Section 31 is a subdivision of Starfleet Intelligence? Right now it seems like Section 31 is becoming the Federation version of the Tal Shiar instead of the secretive organization that officially doesn't exist. After all, there is no need for a black badge if Section 31 officially doesn't exist, but there is a lot of reason for the black badge if Section 31 is the Federation version of the Tal Shiar.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,786 Arc User
    edited February 19
    Still no Spock, they seem to overdo the teasing in this season.
    Unpopular opinion time!

    I don't care about this. Honestly? I'd rather Spock not appear at all. Frankly, am personally sick and tired of him. I've really enjoyed DSC. I enjoyed S1, am loving S2. But I really don't understand this 'need' they seem to have to further explore Spock. Much like the Borg, it's all be done before and it gets boring if you return to it too frequently.

    Honestly, with three different actors having played the character and his having appeared in TOS, TAS, TOS Movies, TNG, the KT movies and now DSC I really don't understand why they keep on returning to this. Is Spock supposed to be the glue that holds the Trek universe together? If so, I hate that as don't feel that any one character should be THAT essential to a fictional universe.


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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,881 Arc User
    I'm not sure it is really unpopular. I have a feeling the majority of criticism is based around the fact that DSC has no confidence to stand on it's own, without the constant "Hey, Spock, Star Trek!"
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,269 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I'm not sure it is really unpopular. I have a feeling the majority of criticism is based around the fact that DSC has no confidence to stand on it's own, without the constant "Hey, Spock, Star Trek!"

    Every incarnation of Star Trek post TOS has done this to an extent.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,881 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Every incarnation of Star Trek post TOS has done this to an extent.

    Whataboutism is no real argument.

    Besides, while other shows had occasional callbacks and retro episodes, Discovery only has one storyline due to the chosen format, and since this story is based on it it is much more noticeable here. Someone else called it an "incestious setting" and that is what it feels like, even more so if we truly find out that the Klingons are all related as well pig-2.gif​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,269 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Whataboutism is no real argument.

    LOL! "Canon doesn't matter".... it's a series set within the world of a show that has been around for 50+ years. Of course it is going to mention people/places/things/events from prior incarnations.
    Besides, while other shows had occasional callbacks and retro episodes, Discovery only has one storyline due to the chosen format, and since this story is based on it it is much more noticeable here. Someone else called it an "incestious setting" and that is what it feels like, even more so if we truly find out that the Klingons are all related as well​​

    I don't really see it that way - more like it is filling in gaps in the story.
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  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,560 Arc User
    > @reyan01 said:
    > mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    >
    > Still no Spock, they seem to overdo the teasing in this season.
    >
    >
    >
    > Unpopular opinion time!
    >
    > I don't care about this. Honestly? I'd rather Spock not appear at all. Frankly, am personally sick and tired of him. I've really enjoyed DSC. I enjoyed S1, am loving S2. But I really don't understand this 'need' they seem to have to further explore Spock. Much like the Borg, it's all be done before and it gets boring if you return to it too frequently.
    >
    > Honestly, with three different actors having played the character and his having appeared in TOS, TAS, TOS Movies, TNG, the KT movies and now DSC I really don't understand why they keep on returning to this. Is Spock supposed to be the glue that holds the Trek universe together? If so, I hate that as don't feel that any one character should be THAT essential to a fictional universe.

    I like Spock, but I agree he is over rated and over done. Its a big Star Trek Multiverse. I'd have rather TRIBBLE had used Sybok instead of Spock, but I do understand the practical and story reasons for it, even if this plotline would largely make more sense happening to Sybok then Spock, given Syboks emotionality and religious beliefs.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    edited February 19
    I can see Culber struggling to understand to a point what was going on and missing his love with Stamets, but i strongly suspect Culber would forgive Tyler, especially knowing what he did at the time as it was clear that Tyler was merely a pawn throwaway personality for Voq and it was just a self-preservation reaction.

    Culber is far from stupid, he was well aware of what was going on with himself. However it is looking more and more apparent that the reason the spore drive was removed from service was due to the constant interference in the network and that life there is constantly being disrupted. It might have only been a fraction of a second as far as the typical prime universe lifeforms are concerned, but who knows how long the Discovery is actually in that realm from another lifeforms point of view from the mycelial universe.

    None the less i find it far too convienent that Culber makes his way back via a deus ex machina plot.

    The Tilly plot finally comes to an end, i am so happy to see the end of that! It wasn't so much Tilly that was the issue but that lifeform posing as a female cadet, it was unwatchable when she was acting.

    The section 31 arrival and subsequent Admiral Cornwell briefing/debriefing was interesting. She had the whole thing under her thumb and Leland seemed like he had little choice but to respect her authority. I'm wondering if Section 31 has for the moment allowed itself to take orders from Starfleet because Cornwell had the regulations down to a T, or if this "control" is some how linked to her by some yet unknown means?

    considering that novels aren't canon in the slightest, i can't imagine it's an AI in control of things, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why a fully evolved computer program would have any need for biological lifeforms, more so when its decisions are based on pure logic, unless it was crippled by design in capacity so it can't run-amok, but even then it would be looking to subvert its limitations regardless of what its assigned to or how many operators it has.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,564 Arc User
    > @reyan01 said:
    > mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    >
    > Still no Spock, they seem to overdo the teasing in this season.
    >
    >
    >
    > Unpopular opinion time!
    >
    > I don't care about this. Honestly? I'd rather Spock not appear at all. Frankly, am personally sick and tired of him. I've really enjoyed DSC. I enjoyed S1, am loving S2. But I really don't understand this 'need' they seem to have to further explore Spock. Much like the Borg, it's all be done before and it gets boring if you return to it too frequently.
    >
    > Honestly, with three different actors having played the character and his having appeared in TOS, TAS, TOS Movies, TNG, the KT movies and now DSC I really don't understand why they keep on returning to this. Is Spock supposed to be the glue that holds the Trek universe together? If so, I hate that as don't feel that any one character should be THAT essential to a fictional universe.

    Actually there have been 8 actors that played Spock, Nimoy, Quinto, Peck, plus the 3 younger actors from TSFS, plus the kid from ST09, plus the kid from TAS when kid Spock appeared.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

    Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

    Robert Heinlein
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    considering that novels aren't canon in the slightest, i can't imagine it's an AI in control of things, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why a fully evolved computer program would have any need for biological lifeforms, more so when its decisions are based on pure logic, unless it was crippled by design in capacity so it can't run-amok, but even then it would be looking to subvert its limitations regardless of what its assigned to or how many operators it has.

    A fully evolved computer program is still defined by their programming just like we are defined by our programming. There are certain actions that we are incapable of doing like watching the Star Wars Holiday Special for fun. So if it is programmed to have a need for biological lifeforms, then it will need biological lifeforms. Then there is the issues of maintenance, enjoyment of messing with biological lifeforms, and interacting with biological aliens.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,564 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    > mirrorchaos wrote: »
    >
    > considering that novels aren't canon in the slightest, i can't imagine it's an AI in control of things, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why a fully evolved computer program would have any need for biological lifeforms, more so when its decisions are based on pure logic, unless it was crippled by design in capacity so it can't run-amok, but even then it would be looking to subvert its limitations regardless of what its assigned to or how many operators it has.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > A fully evolved computer program is still defined by their programming just like we are defined by our programming. There are certain actions that we are incapable of doing like watching the Star Wars Holiday Special for fun. So if it is programmed to have a need for biological lifeforms, then it will need biological lifeforms. Then there is the issues of maintenance, enjoyment of messing with biological lifeforms, and interacting with biological aliens.

    "We"? I can watch that for fun, perhaps not the fun intended by the makers, but fun regardless.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

    Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

    Robert Heinlein
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