I do not consider the term „carrying“ a team-mate which lacks just 2k for a run to potentially succeed due the overall hit points to melt vs the overall mission timer. Thats on the house when running with me but I can see that others with a more elitist attitude or the chronic habit to split hairs might refer to them as being completely inadequate. It’s just not me but each to his own.
I'm not using it as a term of disparagement. I'm just speaking on a strictly technical level: That if you're not able to perform the basic damage requirements of the mission without someone else to do it for you, you're being carried. If that person attempts the run without others to carry him, maintaining the same level of performance, he fails. Period. That means he's being carried. I'm not saying I mind carrying people, I'm just saying: Those people are being carried. They're not succeeding on their own merits. 10K isn't even adequate to be carried by the rest of the team if everyone operates on that same level, because pulls only 50K total, shy of the 60K (55.55K) needed to pass.
How people feel about it is wholly irrelevant: The math doesn't care about your feelings.
So... by that logic everyone doing less than 200k in HSE are carried.
I wonder who carried who in those HSE runs then...
In ISA, if your DPS is so high that you kill the cube, the sphere, the nanite generators AND the nanite transformers in less time than the nanite spheres need to even reach the nanite transformer, no teamplay or even thinking of any kind is happening, required or even desirable. That is map-breaking DPS.
Exactly! Its not even map-breaking DPS, it's potential record-run breaking DPS. I mean come on, soloing a side in ISA is childs play but why leave out all those multiple options to increase your numbers so much further when outsourcing the hot stuff to players taking on a support role.
And the fact that the game allows that is why many maps aren't played, to answer the question asked in the OP. Too many players have stopped caring about tactics in favor of ever higher DPS beyond the threshold that the game's content actually supports.
Yea, I noticed that and agree here as well. So many player just care about thier own DPS via the powerful gear they gather. They could do so much better when learning some minor strategies and game mechanics which benefit others or whole teams. I wonder how many good players are out there by now who could easily dish out 300K instead of just 200k in ISA or even much, much more than that. Instead they sadly run into an invisible wall by stacking the odds aggainst their favor with their team mates.
But as I wrote earlier, when the matchmaking works, which it sometimes does, that is not a problem. Those who find fun in that kind of game experience can then have it, without those who have a different, more dramatic and tension-rich game in mind loosing their own flavour of fun.
I shal cross my fingers for that to happen. Players will get better and improve as it is the nature of this game. If the matchmaking ever works only those handfull of players who don't will be left behind having to tend to the easiest map in game as if it would be some NWS. You know, bringing tractor beam repulsors and all to cope with it. No idea to what point the others will have outgrown by then but oh well.
In any case, I'm glad we understand each other on this one.
So there it is, and it's not my build or skills that got me an AFK ban. I frequently finish in the op 3 in CCA, I NEVER got an AFK ban until Random TFO's appeared, and I have been playing Advanced queues for the last 5 years. Most of my builds are at or near full Mk. XV status, along with a long list of passive buffs and active enhanced traits, so I can normally pull my share, even when there are obvious noobs in the mission not following the correct tactical path. I'll take the suggestion somewhere above, and do some more tests on Random, but I'm not going to waste my time subsidizing the "rich getting richer" while having my own reputation progress throttled by the fallout...
No team in STO can get 1 mil ISA DPS straight that you would need to hand out an afk pen for players that manage at least 10k DPS. Teams can't do so in private and they can't certainly do so in public. Thats just the way it is at the moment. Now if you or others do lees is something I cannot tell but I also do not feel the need to take balme for any AFK pens players might get then.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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I theorize that, using ordinary pets, if there is ONLY one player, the delays will be minimal in most cases, but if 2 or more players have pets, drop items, etc then it's going to freeze, usually during the 'escape' scene (escort the escaping ships phase), and completely bug out either during the cruiser attack phase, or delayed cruiser spawns, followed by either a complete failure of the Battleships to show up (and about 15 to 30 minutes of waiting), or, if the pets are persistent, the mission will either freeze entirely, or 'complete' without further combat.
I have an alternate theory: That because you're KDF, your pets spawn as "Klingons", which must be killed to proceed.
hm, that...is a very reasonable theory.
Oh boy, looks like they messed with advanced of SB1 again. Just ended up in one random with my kling. No problem there with pets now but instead the critters are at -55.
If anybody is curious how a Diamond build plays like on normal when there is nothing broken now is ur chance peeps.
I think it now scales to the lowest level player, I did one today which was -44. Sooo much FaW…. I felt like a god..... Then I went and played the story mission version and well... they no longer exploded like confetti, but they still died fast, so fast that at least one of my Thrai's carrier pets survived the entire final battle including the engagement vs J'Ula. I'm not even using upgraded pets just the defaults!
So... by that logic everyone doing less than 200k in HSE are carried.
I wonder who carried who in those HSE runs then...
Well, given that the 200K figure is more of a spitball than rigidly hard, with the figure being debated to be possibly as low as 160K, it looks like @Obitus and @sf911 carrying the team, they were pretty close to that 200K bar.
I was only fortunate enough to run a few times with @Obitus or @sf911 but became to know both of them as exceptionally good players, even when using different play styles, and certainly capable of turning every PvE situation for the good for a team.
Granted, the parts of the log only shows the dmg/dps figures and therefore give only a partial approximation about what was going on but even judging from that I don’t know any group of players in game who would seriously agree that any form of “carrying” took place by whatever definition on those matches.
Perhaps it would help if you would earn some PvE merits for your own to give your definitions for the success of teamed PvE a more common acceptance?
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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But sadly most people around these days don't know this and are just drunk on DPS.
While it is certainly possible for any slightly above average player to over-DPS the minor obstacles/side quest/twist ISA may hold game sided I can ensure you that every single player who sets any form of noticeable DPS records is fully aware of those obstacles/side quest/twist. They need to be as we have rules as to what kind of play we accept on being legit there and what isn’t.
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I theorize that, using ordinary pets, if there is ONLY one player, the delays will be minimal in most cases, but if 2 or more players have pets, drop items, etc then it's going to freeze, usually during the 'escape' scene (escort the escaping ships phase), and completely bug out either during the cruiser attack phase, or delayed cruiser spawns, followed by either a complete failure of the Battleships to show up (and about 15 to 30 minutes of waiting), or, if the pets are persistent, the mission will either freeze entirely, or 'complete' without further combat.
I have an alternate theory: That because you're KDF, your pets spawn as "Klingons", which must be killed to proceed.
hm, that...is a very reasonable theory.
Oh boy, looks like they messed with advanced of SB1 again. Just ended up in one random with my kling. No problem there with pets now but instead the critters are at -55.
If anybody is curious how a Diamond build plays like on normal when there is nothing broken now is ur chance peeps.
I think it now scales to the lowest level player, I did one today which was -44. Sooo much FaW…. I felt like a god..... Then I went and played the story mission version and well... they no longer exploded like confetti, but they still died fast, so fast that at least one of my Thrai's carrier pets survived the entire final battle including the engagement vs J'Ula. I'm not even using upgraded pets just the defaults!
Yea that with the level scaling could very well be.
Sadly I did not have the time yet to enjoy the new missions so can’t comment on it. Filling reput projects and preparing for the upgrade weekend is somewhat time-consuming for me.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
So... by that logic everyone doing less than 200k in HSE are carried.
I wonder who carried who in those HSE runs then...
Well, given that the 200K figure is more of a spitball than rigidly hard, with the figure being debated to be possibly as low as 160K, it looks like @Obitus and @sf911 carrying the team, they were pretty close to that 200K bar.
Yeah, well, they'd both agree that if they'd gone in alone, they'd be completely obliterated and wouldn't have able to complete the mission without team support.
By the way, it is really fun to queue up for Gravity Kills these days. I enourage everyone to do it!
Funny thing. I really like Gravity kills, and got pretty good at it. I stopped playing cause the loot tended to fall into the gravity well and eventually dying to get it I quit playing it. Sometimes it's the little things that eventually break the camels back.
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
why oh why is Herald Sphere not been removed from the TFO queue list ?, biggest waste of time against reward I've played in this game. Stage 2 always fails where 15 ships always escape and the payout in marks is a measly 28-32. Even Azura Nebula with Cryptic's RNG occasionally TRIBBLE you over with T'Liss spawning making it impossible to obtain 10 pts for the optional is better than Herald Sphere.
I think time i'll just log out and switch character rather than play that one
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
By the way, it is really fun to queue up for Gravity Kills these days. I enourage everyone to do it!
Funny thing. I really like Gravity kills, and got pretty good at it. I stopped playing cause the loot tended to fall into the gravity well and eventually dying to get it I quit playing it. Sometimes it's the little things that eventually break the camels back.
Oh yea I agree on Gravity Kills, just have a different reason why I stopped playing it much.
I (used to) love this map and ran it a lot especially when it was new. It’s a beautiful (black hole) map, with lovely tasks, no time gates and most of all (via the pull) some new conditions for a team to encounter. The map is so cool that it basically invites a player to seek new build options. Nothing too serious, a few boff abilities here, a doff there and perhaps with an item or two one is good to go.
I did so which soon resulted, after some early satisfaction with what I was doing, in heavy frustration as far as my team-mates are concerned. I don’t know how many countless times I did the transport task around 50-60% by myself with four other players doing the rest. Considering how repetitive that can get then I burned out on it rather soon.
It is funny that this map is brought up in this thread because so often players request something to do besides dishing out some deeps around here. I always think of this very map then because from what I was able to witness from pugs and fleet mates alike is that if players have trouble with some minor DPS already they also have trouble with doing other tasks leaving the bulk of PvE to do for those who don’t.
Now while bringing some DPS for others never turns me off from a map, this one did.
That is just too bad.
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I (used to) love this map and ran it a lot especially when it was new. It’s a beautiful (black hole) map, with lovely tasks, no time gates and most of all (via the pull) some new conditions for a team to encounter. The map is so cool that it basically invites a player to seek new build options. Nothing too serious, a few boff abilities here, a doff there and perhaps with an item or two one is good to go.
The catch is that since you have no idea what you're about to get into, you can't actually set your build to work for this queue, or you'll completely cripple yourself if you wind up elsewhere.
The catch is that even if you go in random there is plenty of time at the start to change some boff powers, adjust power levels or squeeze in a more fitting device/console. Players just don’t bother. Don’t get me wrong of course players new to this map need to learn and to get better. It has just been my experience that even seasoned players have trouble to contribute, and well in most cases I recall it turned out to be exactly the same players having trouble with DPS stuff in ISA.
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If you change your boff powers, you'll completely **** your power tray and keybinds, rendering the ship uncontrollable, and that's going to wind up taking several minutes to fix and then go through the flight checklist to make sure all the buttons work. Then you have to change them BACK afterwards, repeating the process. If I'm going to do something merely to undo it later, I can just save a lot of time and hassle simply by leaving it alone for the same end result.
lol.. that's a bit much isn't it?
He's talking about changing one or two powers not a total reconstruction of the build. Swapping EPTS for EPTE to give you more mobility for example. If you unlock your tray, EPTE will just fill the blank spot created by removing EPTS. When you're done you just reload your loadout.. boom done.
I swap Boff Power on a per map basis all the time.. it's really not that hard. If it's only 1 or 2 skills, or swapping a console with no 'clicky' it doesn't take more then a few seconds to do if you already know exactly what you want to do.
I will agree with you that for most players this probably isn't practical, it takes an understanding of power functionality that frankly, the average player probably does not possess.
If you change your boff powers, you'll completely **** your power tray and keybinds, rendering the ship uncontrollable, and that's going to wind up taking several minutes to fix and then go through the flight checklist to make sure all the buttons work. Then you have to change them BACK afterwards, repeating the process. If I'm going to do something merely to undo it later, I can just save a lot of time and hassle simply by leaving it alone for the same end result.
lol.. that's a bit much isn't it?
He's talking about changing one or two powers not a total reconstruction of the build. Swapping EPTS for EPTE to give you more mobility for example. If you unlock your tray, EPTE will just fill the blank spot created by removing EPTS. When you're done you just reload your loadout.. boom done.
I swap Boff Power on a per map basis all the time.. it's really not that hard. If it's only 1 or 2 skills, or swapping a console with no 'clicky' it doesn't take more then a few seconds to do if you already know exactly what you want to do.
I will agree with you that for most players this probably isn't practical, it takes an understanding of power functionality that frankly, the average player probably does not possess.
Thank you very much for explaining it Sea.
Yea, that is pretty much all I do too. Sometimes you end up on a pilot ship with some more options but even only a bit more engine power already feels suffice to gain some speed to get the mission done more effective.
It’s great to hear about ruins’ objections here, really. They underline well why some PvE maps with other than DPS requirements simply feel rejected by so many and why request to make more like it should be met with some skepticism. I mean when those who can’t cant’, those who could won’t and those who can and do get pissed off there is not much left to play.
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He's talking about changing one or two powers not a total reconstruction of the build. Swapping EPTS for EPTE to give you more mobility for example. If you unlock your tray, EPTE will just fill the blank spot created by removing EPTS. When you're done you just reload your loadout.. boom done.
Not quite true. What will happen is that blank spot created by EPTS will be filled by the ghost of the now-deceased EPTS. EPTE will be nowhere to be found. Now I have to scroll the tray OFF the usual "hand click and status tray", open up the keybind tray, manually enter the command to purge ghosts from the tray, place the icon into all the keys that it should go, etc., etc.
And then, since the tray failed integrity check as a result, I have to go through the entire preflight checklist from scratch to make sure everything is now working again. Depending on how much damage had to be cleaned up and rebound, this could take anything from 5 minutes to half an hour. This is why pilots check to make sure everything on the plane is working BEFORE taking off.
And then, I get to repeat the entire thing on conclusion, completely invalidating the action I previously took, so I may as well not have done it at all.
It would frankly be less hassle to just swap the entire ship. Which is what I would do, EXCEPT IT WON'T LET ME.
I'm not quite sure why you have had that experience, but if you have unlocked the tray previous to the swap then removing an ability leaves the slot empty. I have done this many times so I am not sure what the problem is here. Still, I have no reason to assume that your account is inaccurate so I understand your hesitance. My experience however, has been very different.
It would frankly be less hassle to just swap the entire ship. Which is what I would do, EXCEPT IT WON'T LET ME.
Would indeed be useful if there was option to select ship/loadout when entering a queue.
Although personally, I'd just do GK with whatever and if I fall in while fetching the plot coupons because my speed boosts are on CD so be it. Why spend a lot of effort just to avoid an occasional click of "respawn?"
He's talking about changing one or two powers not a total reconstruction of the build. Swapping EPTS for EPTE to give you more mobility for example. If you unlock your tray, EPTE will just fill the blank spot created by removing EPTS. When you're done you just reload your loadout.. boom done.
Not quite true. What will happen is that blank spot created by EPTS will be filled by the ghost of the now-deceased EPTS. EPTE will be nowhere to be found. Now I have to scroll the tray OFF the usual "hand click and status tray", open up the keybind tray, manually enter the command to purge ghosts from the tray, place the icon into all the keys that it should go, etc., etc.
And then, since the tray failed integrity check as a result, I have to go through the entire preflight checklist from scratch to make sure everything is now working again. Depending on how much damage had to be cleaned up and rebound, this could take anything from 5 minutes to half an hour. This is why pilots check to make sure everything on the plane is working BEFORE taking off.
And then, I get to repeat the entire thing on conclusion, completely invalidating the action I previously took, so I may as well not have done it at all.
False drama by overstatement much? Changing and then restoring a single boff ability takes far less than 5-30 minutes as does changing a single kit ability. Everything else is even easier: changing a single ship's console, power levels, or ground gear.
He's talking about changing one or two powers not a total reconstruction of the build. Swapping EPTS for EPTE to give you more mobility for example. If you unlock your tray, EPTE will just fill the blank spot created by removing EPTS. When you're done you just reload your loadout.. boom done.
Not quite true. What will happen is that blank spot created by EPTS will be filled by the ghost of the now-deceased EPTS. EPTE will be nowhere to be found. Now I have to scroll the tray OFF the usual "hand click and status tray", open up the keybind tray, manually enter the command to purge ghosts from the tray, place the icon into all the keys that it should go, etc., etc.
And then, since the tray failed integrity check as a result, I have to go through the entire preflight checklist from scratch to make sure everything is now working again. Depending on how much damage had to be cleaned up and rebound, this could take anything from 5 minutes to half an hour. This is why pilots check to make sure everything on the plane is working BEFORE taking off.
And then, I get to repeat the entire thing on conclusion, completely invalidating the action I previously took, so I may as well not have done it at all.
False drama by overstatement much? Changing and then restoring a single boff ability takes far less than 5-30 minutes as does changing a single kit ability. Everything else is even easier: changing a single ship's console, power levels, or ground gear.
I agree, it is not an issue at all.
Under the current meta it is easier even for those hesitant to adjust abilities for other map’s needs. The competitive engines grand a substantial speed boost and see to it that a lot of the less DPS centric maps play much more fluent.
Gravity Kills, Tzenkethi Front, Breach, Counterpoint... all feel a lot more fun to play with them.
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Comments
So... by that logic everyone doing less than 200k in HSE are carried.
I wonder who carried who in those HSE runs then...
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
No team in STO can get 1 mil ISA DPS straight that you would need to hand out an afk pen for players that manage at least 10k DPS. Teams can't do so in private and they can't certainly do so in public. Thats just the way it is at the moment. Now if you or others do lees is something I cannot tell but I also do not feel the need to take balme for any AFK pens players might get then.
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My character Tsin'xing
I was only fortunate enough to run a few times with @Obitus or @sf911 but became to know both of them as exceptionally good players, even when using different play styles, and certainly capable of turning every PvE situation for the good for a team.
Granted, the parts of the log only shows the dmg/dps figures and therefore give only a partial approximation about what was going on but even judging from that I don’t know any group of players in game who would seriously agree that any form of “carrying” took place by whatever definition on those matches.
Perhaps it would help if you would earn some PvE merits for your own to give your definitions for the success of teamed PvE a more common acceptance?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
While it is certainly possible for any slightly above average player to over-DPS the minor obstacles/side quest/twist ISA may hold game sided I can ensure you that every single player who sets any form of noticeable DPS records is fully aware of those obstacles/side quest/twist. They need to be as we have rules as to what kind of play we accept on being legit there and what isn’t.
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Yea that with the level scaling could very well be.
Sadly I did not have the time yet to enjoy the new missions so can’t comment on it. Filling reput projects and preparing for the upgrade weekend is somewhat time-consuming for me.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Yeah, well, they'd both agree that if they'd gone in alone, they'd be completely obliterated and wouldn't have able to complete the mission without team support.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Funny thing. I really like Gravity kills, and got pretty good at it. I stopped playing cause the loot tended to fall into the gravity well and eventually dying to get it I quit playing it. Sometimes it's the little things that eventually break the camels back.
I think time i'll just log out and switch character rather than play that one
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Oh yea I agree on Gravity Kills, just have a different reason why I stopped playing it much.
I (used to) love this map and ran it a lot especially when it was new. It’s a beautiful (black hole) map, with lovely tasks, no time gates and most of all (via the pull) some new conditions for a team to encounter. The map is so cool that it basically invites a player to seek new build options. Nothing too serious, a few boff abilities here, a doff there and perhaps with an item or two one is good to go.
I did so which soon resulted, after some early satisfaction with what I was doing, in heavy frustration as far as my team-mates are concerned. I don’t know how many countless times I did the transport task around 50-60% by myself with four other players doing the rest. Considering how repetitive that can get then I burned out on it rather soon.
It is funny that this map is brought up in this thread because so often players request something to do besides dishing out some deeps around here. I always think of this very map then because from what I was able to witness from pugs and fleet mates alike is that if players have trouble with some minor DPS already they also have trouble with doing other tasks leaving the bulk of PvE to do for those who don’t.
Now while bringing some DPS for others never turns me off from a map, this one did.
That is just too bad.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
The catch is that even if you go in random there is plenty of time at the start to change some boff powers, adjust power levels or squeeze in a more fitting device/console. Players just don’t bother. Don’t get me wrong of course players new to this map need to learn and to get better. It has just been my experience that even seasoned players have trouble to contribute, and well in most cases I recall it turned out to be exactly the same players having trouble with DPS stuff in ISA.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
lol.. that's a bit much isn't it?
He's talking about changing one or two powers not a total reconstruction of the build. Swapping EPTS for EPTE to give you more mobility for example. If you unlock your tray, EPTE will just fill the blank spot created by removing EPTS. When you're done you just reload your loadout.. boom done.
I swap Boff Power on a per map basis all the time.. it's really not that hard. If it's only 1 or 2 skills, or swapping a console with no 'clicky' it doesn't take more then a few seconds to do if you already know exactly what you want to do.
I will agree with you that for most players this probably isn't practical, it takes an understanding of power functionality that frankly, the average player probably does not possess.
Thank you very much for explaining it Sea.
Yea, that is pretty much all I do too. Sometimes you end up on a pilot ship with some more options but even only a bit more engine power already feels suffice to gain some speed to get the mission done more effective.
It’s great to hear about ruins’ objections here, really. They underline well why some PvE maps with other than DPS requirements simply feel rejected by so many and why request to make more like it should be met with some skepticism. I mean when those who can’t cant’, those who could won’t and those who can and do get pissed off there is not much left to play.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I'm not quite sure why you have had that experience, but if you have unlocked the tray previous to the swap then removing an ability leaves the slot empty. I have done this many times so I am not sure what the problem is here. Still, I have no reason to assume that your account is inaccurate so I understand your hesitance. My experience however, has been very different.
Sad but true.
Although personally, I'd just do GK with whatever and if I fall in while fetching the plot coupons because my speed boosts are on CD so be it. Why spend a lot of effort just to avoid an occasional click of "respawn?"
My character Tsin'xing
I agree, it is not an issue at all.
Under the current meta it is easier even for those hesitant to adjust abilities for other map’s needs. The competitive engines grand a substantial speed boost and see to it that a lot of the less DPS centric maps play much more fluent.
Gravity Kills, Tzenkethi Front, Breach, Counterpoint... all feel a lot more fun to play with them.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.