One thing I dislike about the prequels (before TOS stuff) is that they seemingly place Earth in wars where it's besieged and humanity faces destruction or enslavement.
If that had actually happened, the Starfleet of TOS time would have been a lot more military focused and less space hippieish.
(And on a different tangent, if you read the old, very old original Star Trek comic book, in some issues the nacelles were actually rockets, shooting out flame.)
TRIBBLE has effectively retconned TOS out of existence, almost certainly by design. The Federation as we saw in TOS could not exist after the events of Season 1 of TRIBBLE. Now the Federation is a dark and edgy place intended to send a thrill up the legs of it's Millennial target audience. Soon that ethos will be ret-conned here as well.
TOS was written in the height of the Cold War and reflects the general hawkish consensus on the Soviets (KDF) and Romulans (Red China) between the parties in the US at that time. As the US and Russia could not win a direct conflict with each other thanks to MAD, the Feds and KDF were said to be too evenly matched to be able to risk a war prosecuted to a decisive conclusion. By TNG, the political left here had the smug certainty that they were above primitive things such as fighting....hence episodes like "The Enterprise Incident", where in a alternate universe the Federation was losing a 20 year long war with the Klingons, who less than a century ago were a economic basket case that had to swallow it's pride and ask the Feds for help to stave off total economic collapse but by then were capable of beating the Feds in a war of attrition. But at least it took a realistic amount of time for the KDF to do it in TNG....as opposed to TRIBBLE where the Kling-orcs are easily able to bring the Federation they supposedly feared so much to it's knees in a few short months, which begs the question...why didn't they do it in the 22nd Century when it would have been even easier?. The War itself was just as implausible as the McGuffin they came up to end it....with Bomb Girl using nuclear blackmail to force her own people to abandon their greatest military achievement since freeing themselves from the Hur'q in the very hour of total victory. L'Rell would be the most hated ruler in Klingon history for cheating them out of their hard earned victory, not acclaimed a hero to be emulated by folks like Martok.
IMO, if the Klingons managed to pull the mask off the Feds and reveal the true nature of it's founding species.....it would not be long before they bitterly came to regret having done it. The Federation is more or less a support group for hardened killers trying to "be better people". You only need to crack a history book to see what humans are capable of if properly motivated, and the Andorians, Vulcans, and probably the Tellarites as well are at least just as bad....and given the extremes the Vulcans resorted to in order to establish peace on their world, possibly a whole lot worse.
Gotta admit though, when we finally DID see round... they looked good.
Y'know what, I'll just say it. Without exception, the modernization of the Constitution-class is objectively the single greatest thing to come out of DSC so far. As much as I adore the Crossfield, I can't help but feel just a little disappointed that we can't have the DSC Enterprise as the hero ship for this show...
why didn't they do it in the 22nd Century when it would have been even easier?
The thinking was probably- why bother? The Federation is too weak to be a threat, who knows if they'll even last and don't collapse on their own.
A century later, they turn around, and suddenly the Federation has vastly expanded its borders. But they still don't really care, because they are busy with themselves. But someone comes out and says: "Hey, the Federation is a real threat, if we don't stop them, they will conquer us." And then there is a big battle, and the person warning everyone about the Federation is killed by the Federation. So now the Klingons think: "He might have a point, we should take them. And this Kol guy is handing out cloaking tech for everyone joining him, cloaking tech sounds like something you don't want to miss out if you want to last against the other houses."
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However, T'Kuvma never advocated the war of sheer genocide against the Federation that Kol had taken them down. T'Kuvma's entire shtick was "we will draw a line in the sand that they won't cross" basically forming a "wall" in space, and not a war of conquest. L'rell stopped the Klingons from winning because, if they had beaten the Federation, everything T'Kuvma was trying to fight for would have been undone as this common enemy would no longer exist, and the Klingons would just go back to destroying themselves via infighting again.
T'Kuvma did not care if Klingons murdered everyone in the Federation. At no point does he give any indication that he cares about the lives of those in the Federation. In fact, it is the opposite. He denounces them for "inter-species co-mingling" because that is "icky". He denounces them for being liars and manipulators, who must be destroyed before the Federation "corrupts the purity" of Klingons. On top of that, he lied to the High Council and the Federation in order to manipulate them into doing what he wanted... which was murdering each other. T'Kuvma was a manipulative, racist, xenophobic caricature, not any kind of respectable leader.
Because, ultimately, what T'Kuvma started, and she finished, quite literally saved the Empire from destroying itself via infighting.
Everything L'rell did, she did for herself. She lies and manipulates everyone one around her, just like Kol AND T'Kuvma.
All T'Kuvma wanted, was to start a war with the Federation because murdering the icky, degenerate aliens next door would give the Klingons a common enemy. If the Klingons stopped murdering the icky, degenerate aliens next door, then they would have to deal with their own issues (which, they seemed incapable of doing, and is why they needed a common enemy). At best, L'rell becomes the new "common enemy" that prevents the Empire from collapsing. At worst, without a common enemy, the Empire continues to decay right out from under L'rell. Nice going, L'rell.
The thinking was probably- why bother? The Federation is too weak to be a threat, who knows if they'll even last and don't collapse on their own.
This makes no sense. The Klingons happily MURDERED neighboring aliens who could not defend themselves. They only stopped murdering when they were murdered first. Then, they went home and sulked. If they thought the Federation was weak, why did they not come back to continue the murdering?
A century later, they turn around, and suddenly the Federation has vastly expanded its borders. But they still don't really care, because they are busy with themselves. But someone comes out and says: "Hey, the Federation is a real threat, if we don't stop them, they will conquer us." And then there is a big battle, and the person warning everyone about the Federation is killed by the Federation. So now the Klingons think: "He might have a point, we should take them. And this Kol guy is handing out cloaking tech for everyone joining him, cloaking tech sounds like something you don't want to miss out if you want to last against the other houses."
In light of Klingons "murdering anyone who does not murder them first", none of this makes sense.
Many things about the status of the galactic powers during the Discovery era make no sense. You have huge multi-cultural trade hubs on homeworlds (like Qo'nos) yet neither the Federation nor the Klingon Empire seem to know anything about each other. The Federation seems willfully ignorant of their neighbors who are an unstable wreck, just looking for an excuse to murder someone. Even with a perfect cloaking device (something the Romulans won't have for decades), the Federation should not be that badly outmatched. Otherwise, one of the cloaking Empires would have destroyed the Federation in later eras.
In light of Klingons "murdering anyone who does not murder them first", none of this makes sense.
Actually, we know that they don't wage wars of extermination because in ENT and TNG we've seen that they had as slave labor the Kriosian, Valtese, and Arin'sen populations. Obviously these were not peacefully annexed, but the Klingons allowed them to live as vassal states with at least partial autonomy.
This makes no sense. The Klingons happily MURDERED neighboring aliens who could not defend themselves. They only stopped murdering when they were murdered first. Then, they went home and sulked. If they thought the Federation was weak, why did they not come back to continue the murdering?
There is a difference between a chance encounter, a raid, and a war. If the Klingons encountered an alien ship, their first reaction is to shoot it down. But space is really big - by default, you're not going to meet anyone. You might detect them on long-range sensors, but that doesn't mean you have to deal with them.
You will have to go out of your way to do so. If you're on a raid, you probably typically avoid most ships, except the ones that you're intent on raiding or could be hindering your raids. If you're not on a raid, you just ignore other ships. If you're in a war, you're trying to engage anyone you can detect, provided you have a reasonable chance to come out ahead.
So most likely, either the Vulcans intentionally set out to meet the Klingons because they heard of a new species and wanted to know about it, or the Klingons decided the wanted to see whether these Vulcans were of any interest and searched for a ship. Either way, the Klingons weren't interested in anything but a raid here, because they don't care for diplomacy and cultural exchange and all that nonsense, and destroyed the Vulcan ship. They were content with the results.
The Vulcans weren't, and decided they would actively engage Klingon ships and introducing them to
the Vulcan Hello. The Klingons didn't find that all that fun, overall, and decided that they'd try speaking with the Vulcans for a change, to see if they can't get this shooting your ships down that were just flying along to happily raid some weakling colony or homeworld to stop. The Vulcans said "Okay, don't attack us anymore, and we don't attack you. And when we appraoch, we don't want to be attacked or attack you, we just want to talk", and the Klingons probably decided that would work for them (for now).
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I amjust wondering if the Steamrunner will come in an downgraded version. It surely must have been one of the earliest prototypes at this time... ...if i close my eyes and disregard what my eyes caught during first seaon.
LALALA... See no evil,hear no evil... only fantasy left...
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Does that include the equipment slots? Because 1 DHC, 1 Hargh'Peng and 1 Turret are not the same as 3 DHC, 1 Hargh'Peng and 2 Turrets.
TRIBBLE has effectively retconned TOS out of existence, almost certainly by design. The Federation as we saw in TOS could not exist after the events of Season 1 of TRIBBLE. Now the Federation is a dark and edgy place intended to send a thrill up the legs of it's Millennial target audience. Soon that ethos will be ret-conned here as well.
TOS was written in the height of the Cold War and reflects the general hawkish consensus on the Soviets (KDF) and Romulans (Red China) between the parties in the US at that time. As the US and Russia could not win a direct conflict with each other thanks to MAD, the Feds and KDF were said to be too evenly matched to be able to risk a war prosecuted to a decisive conclusion. By TNG, the political left here had the smug certainty that they were above primitive things such as fighting....hence episodes like "The Enterprise Incident", where in a alternate universe the Federation was losing a 20 year long war with the Klingons, who less than a century ago were a economic basket case that had to swallow it's pride and ask the Feds for help to stave off total economic collapse but by then were capable of beating the Feds in a war of attrition. But at least it took a realistic amount of time for the KDF to do it in TNG....as opposed to TRIBBLE where the Kling-orcs are easily able to bring the Federation they supposedly feared so much to it's knees in a few short months, which begs the question...why didn't they do it in the 22nd Century when it would have been even easier?. The War itself was just as implausible as the McGuffin they came up to end it....with Bomb Girl using nuclear blackmail to force her own people to abandon their greatest military achievement since freeing themselves from the Hur'q in the very hour of total victory. L'Rell would be the most hated ruler in Klingon history for cheating them out of their hard earned victory, not acclaimed a hero to be emulated by folks like Martok.
IMO, if the Klingons managed to pull the mask off the Feds and reveal the true nature of it's founding species.....it would not be long before they bitterly came to regret having done it. The Federation is more or less a support group for hardened killers trying to "be better people". You only need to crack a history book to see what humans are capable of if properly motivated, and the Andorians, Vulcans, and probably the Tellarites as well are at least just as bad....and given the extremes the Vulcans resorted to in order to establish peace on their world, possibly a whole lot worse.
Y'know what, I'll just say it. Without exception, the modernization of the Constitution-class is objectively the single greatest thing to come out of DSC so far. As much as I adore the Crossfield, I can't help but feel just a little disappointed that we can't have the DSC Enterprise as the hero ship for this show...
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The thinking was probably- why bother? The Federation is too weak to be a threat, who knows if they'll even last and don't collapse on their own.
A century later, they turn around, and suddenly the Federation has vastly expanded its borders. But they still don't really care, because they are busy with themselves. But someone comes out and says: "Hey, the Federation is a real threat, if we don't stop them, they will conquer us." And then there is a big battle, and the person warning everyone about the Federation is killed by the Federation. So now the Klingons think: "He might have a point, we should take them. And this Kol guy is handing out cloaking tech for everyone joining him, cloaking tech sounds like something you don't want to miss out if you want to last against the other houses."
Everything L'rell did, she did for herself. She lies and manipulates everyone one around her, just like Kol AND T'Kuvma.
All T'Kuvma wanted, was to start a war with the Federation because murdering the icky, degenerate aliens next door would give the Klingons a common enemy. If the Klingons stopped murdering the icky, degenerate aliens next door, then they would have to deal with their own issues (which, they seemed incapable of doing, and is why they needed a common enemy). At best, L'rell becomes the new "common enemy" that prevents the Empire from collapsing. At worst, without a common enemy, the Empire continues to decay right out from under L'rell. Nice going, L'rell. This makes no sense. The Klingons happily MURDERED neighboring aliens who could not defend themselves. They only stopped murdering when they were murdered first. Then, they went home and sulked. If they thought the Federation was weak, why did they not come back to continue the murdering? In light of Klingons "murdering anyone who does not murder them first", none of this makes sense.
Many things about the status of the galactic powers during the Discovery era make no sense. You have huge multi-cultural trade hubs on homeworlds (like Qo'nos) yet neither the Federation nor the Klingon Empire seem to know anything about each other. The Federation seems willfully ignorant of their neighbors who are an unstable wreck, just looking for an excuse to murder someone. Even with a perfect cloaking device (something the Romulans won't have for decades), the Federation should not be that badly outmatched. Otherwise, one of the cloaking Empires would have destroyed the Federation in later eras.
My character Tsin'xing
There is a difference between a chance encounter, a raid, and a war. If the Klingons encountered an alien ship, their first reaction is to shoot it down. But space is really big - by default, you're not going to meet anyone. You might detect them on long-range sensors, but that doesn't mean you have to deal with them.
You will have to go out of your way to do so. If you're on a raid, you probably typically avoid most ships, except the ones that you're intent on raiding or could be hindering your raids. If you're not on a raid, you just ignore other ships. If you're in a war, you're trying to engage anyone you can detect, provided you have a reasonable chance to come out ahead.
So most likely, either the Vulcans intentionally set out to meet the Klingons because they heard of a new species and wanted to know about it, or the Klingons decided the wanted to see whether these Vulcans were of any interest and searched for a ship. Either way, the Klingons weren't interested in anything but a raid here, because they don't care for diplomacy and cultural exchange and all that nonsense, and destroyed the Vulcan ship. They were content with the results.
The Vulcans weren't, and decided they would actively engage Klingon ships and introducing them to
the Vulcan Hello. The Klingons didn't find that all that fun, overall, and decided that they'd try speaking with the Vulcans for a change, to see if they can't get this shooting your ships down that were just flying along to happily raid some weakling colony or homeworld to stop. The Vulcans said "Okay, don't attack us anymore, and we don't attack you. And when we appraoch, we don't want to be attacked or attack you, we just want to talk", and the Klingons probably decided that would work for them (for now).
LALALA... See no evil,hear no evil... only fantasy left...