And I'd like to note the P'Jem mission in particular. Sure the Klingons were right about Sokketh but instead of providing proof they just got insulted about honour and tried to destroy us. Asking for proof from a Captain of Starfleet's current enemy isn't unreasonable. In fact its a lot more reasonable than s/he should have been.
That's my favorite one, right there. Klingon gets intel that a Federation ambassador and former Councillor might be an Undine, right? So he flies all the way to the Federation core worlds during a declared war against the Federation to... decloak in front of the ambassador's Starfleet escort and demand that they hand him over to an enemy combatant?
In what universe does that seem sensible even by Klingon standards?
He's just lucky it wasn't forty years earlier and he wasn't trying that with the Cardassians: remember what that one guy did to Picard when he was similarly stupid in the backstory of "The Wounded"? Instead of taking a cheap shot, the commander of the escorting ship actually bothers to entertain this request and ask for evidence.
The Klingon takes umbrage at this ridiculous demand and says "talk to my disruptors". Of course, he's flying an uncloaked bird-of-prey against a light cruiser and gets blown out of space in thirty seconds.
And consider the fact that J'mpok wanted a war with the Federation several years before anyone knew the Undine had disregarded the agreement from "In the Flesh". Way back in 2387 or '88, he tried to start a fight for no other reason than that Worf had been in command of a Klingon task force that was trashed by Nero, despite the fact that Worf had actually personally boarded the Narada and nearly spared us having to watch that mediocre movie. Martok laughed Jimmy Pok out of the High Council chambers, which was the beginning of their feud.
The Undine were never anything more to Jimmy Pok than an excuse to withdraw from the Khitomer Accords so he could declare war on the Federation to occupy a disputed region without having to fend off accusations of oathbreaking (i.e. maintaining quv).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
What was there to talk about? They have no legitimate reason to be skulking around the Federation's Core Worlds when there is a war on.....I would not have even bothered to answer their hails and immediately engaged them before they could threaten the lives of the Federation Citizens in the P'Jem system as was my Duty. Even if I bothered to listen to them, nothing would have changed. The idea of handing over any Federation citizen to them was completely absurd....believing their own propaganda and assuming that Starfleet Captains were sniveling cowards who would comply with such a demand to save their own skins would quickly prove a fatal mistake on their part.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
What was there to talk about? They have no legitimate reason to be skulking around the Federation's Core Worlds when there is a war on.....I would not have even bothered to answer their hails and immediately engaged them before they could threaten the lives of the Federation Citizens in the P'Jem system as was my Duty. Even if I bothered to listen to them, nothing would have changed. The idea of handing over any Federation citizen to them was completely absurd....believing their own propaganda and assuming that Starfleet Captains were sniveling cowards who would comply with such a demand to save their own skins would quickly prove a fatal mistake on their part.
That's kind of my point. The Klingon was incredibly stupid to think a Starfleet Captain would hand over a Federation citizen based solely on his word, and that by even asking for evidence was very reasonable on the Starfleet Captain's part.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
Yeah, as I recall, Jimmy Pok invaded first (after spending the better part of ten years agitating for war with the Gorn and then taking the Orion Syndicate onboard as allies) and only then made a token effort to get his "ally" that had spent the better part of the same ten years trying to prevent a war onboard.* Like I said, the Undine were just a convenient excuse.
After the war, sure, the Federation ended up with egg on its face, but there's this funny thing about breaking an alliance: it means your former ally is no longer obligated to put up with your cr*p.
* This of course coming twenty years or so after the most devastating war in modern history from which even the Klingon Empire was still recovering.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If the person in question hadn't turned out to have been a Undine Infiltrator, anything other than a flat refusal skirted "Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer". But yeah, you're 100% right
If the person in question hadn't turned out to have been a Undine Infiltrator, anything other than a flat refusal skirted "Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer". But yeah, you're 100% right
If it had been the real Sokketh? Handling him over would have been dereliction of duty.
Discussing it with that Klingon captain? that's a matter of gathering intelligence. He obviously went to a lot of risk to meet you. If you can find out why simply by asking nicely? the information might be useful later.
If the person in question hadn't turned out to have been a Undine Infiltrator, anything other than a flat refusal skirted "Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer". But yeah, you're 100% right
If it had been the real Sokketh? Handling him over would have been dereliction of duty.
Discussing it with that Klingon captain? that's a matter of gathering intelligence. He obviously went to a lot of risk to meet you. If you can find out why simply by asking nicely? the information might be useful later.
Actually giving up Soketh would be "Misbehavior Before the Enemy", I'd say violations of Sections (2), (5), (8) and (9) of Article 99 if using the UCMJ as a guide. In a better age such a captain would be cashiered and shot for it.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
Yeah, as I recall, Jimmy Pok invaded first (after spending the better part of ten years agitating for war with the Gorn and then taking the Orion Syndicate onboard as allies) and only then made a token effort to get his "ally" that had spent the better part of the same ten years trying to prevent a war onboard.* Like I said, the Undine were just a convenient excuse.
After the war, sure, the Federation ended up with egg on its face, but there's this funny thing about breaking an alliance: it means your former ally is no longer obligated to put up with your cr*p.
* This of course coming twenty years or so after the most devastating war in modern history from which even the Klingon Empire was still recovering.
what you're missing, is that from the Klingon point of view, the Federation broke faith first...and not for the first time. The Gorn (Federation allies) were raiding into Klingon space, which was his whole cassus belli before the undine were revealed, and the Federation's 'efforts' were lackluster at best-think about it, the 'raid' on the talks was clearly a false-flag, the Klingons knew they didn't do it, but the Gorn and Federation were united in claiming that they did.
consider the possibility now, that the people in charge already felt they had reason to distrust the Federation already, given that the Federation's made a habit of ignoring their territory going back to before it was founded (see: Enterprise, then TOS, several times in the movies...)
The fact that the Federation prolonged the cardassian mess (an active Federation support of it would likely have resolved things much faster, uncovered the truth sooner, and resulted in fewer casualties on all sides since the presence of that ally would have likely moderated conduct by klingon troops and Cardies would have surrendered faster, allowing a more complete inquiry that may have cleared the Detapa Council. By refusing to join their ally, the Feds put themselves under suspicion as also being compromised while simultaneously eliminating their ability to influence the war in a less destructive path.)
when Ja'Rod survived the assassination/replacement attempt, and Jimmy sent h im to 'fact find', he came back with sufficient evidence that the gorn war didn't turn into a sacking, thus the Gorn hegemony is an autonomous client state, (india in the 1940s) instead of a subjugated victim (South Vietnam after 1975, or the Ukraine in 1936, or anyone colonized by the French or Belgians in Africa)
to many Klingons, it was "there goes the Federation again, stabbing us in the back". it's how J'mpok got the influence he did.
yet, the actual war against the Federation followed some really rather strict limitations. The Empire didn't broaden the front, or turn it into a war of attrition, they made exactly ONE strike into Sol system, and it was against a limited target, the move at P'jem may have been made by an officer with more discipline than sense, but it was after a surgical target, and they didn't resort to orbital bombardment when they really could have (and saved a lot of time and effort doing so, I might add.)
Their actual prosecution of hte war doesn't fit with your paradigm, Starsword. Klingons are quite capable of unleashed atrocity, and they tend to do so when the target is seen as unworthy of respect. There was likely less bloodshed on P'jem, than in a typical klingon riot on Qo'noS or a labor dispute over Ty'Gokor.
by their standards, they handled the whole situation with 'kid gloves', rather than exerting the full might and fury of the Empire's collective force.
something to consider about Klingon psychology; They're more likely to respect a rioter throwing rocks, than a fully armored man in a tank who surrenders without firing a shot.
that has implications. to them, the Federation was surrendering without a shot far too often to trust in the federation's honor.
Honestly, you give the Empire too much credit. It is not a great medium or long-term survival strategy to randomly attack anyone who disagrees with you, since all that does is give them an excellent reason to attack you in turn and disagree with you in any event. J'mpok's initial characterization was definitly the kind of reactionary "return to the old ways" style of figure whose nostalgic obsession with a nonexistant past overrides more reasoned behavior. As previous posters noted, Klingon aggressiveness against the Cardassians drove them straight into the Dominion, and it turned out that the Changelings had infiltrated the Klingons to high levels. Cryptic even acknowledged this in "Stop the Signal" when one Klingon officer turned out to be Undine. The fact that Cryptic spun around so fast on making the KDF completely right instead of ambiguously right was depressing, because in real life your belief in your motives matters almost nothing in international politics; rather, it is how well you can persuade and demonstrate to others that they are valid. I would also point out that any attack on a homeworld would incite a proportionate response, and it wasn't the Klingons who came up with the Genesis Device, made functional Augments (pre-warp humans), or split off to make their own high-tech insidious empire (Romulans)... I rather suspect there wouldn't be a Qo'nos, if even an Empire, after a gloves-off Federation was finished with them. To paraphrase from another series, an unambiguously good civilizaion wouldn't need so many rules and regulations; it is not the time to learn why the Federation/Starfleet has so many.
As for Klingon "Honor," Star Trek has neatly encapsulated why so many RL honor systems, especially martial ones, cause so much strife and pain. The Klingon sense of honor is entirely focused inwards, with outsiders at best considered near-honorable, even when they prove themselves loyal allies (See Worf, who will likely never considered be culturally Klingon to anyone outside of House Martok, even though his knowledge probably rivals any loremaster). What else justifies military-grade warships targeting unaffiliated civilian vessels from under cloak, or battle fleets expelling civilian populations as honorable? Consider Khitomer, a sneak attack on a nonmilitary colony; the Klingons still held a grudge against the entire Romulan people for decades after the fact. Yet they have no problem attacking civilian targets of others, and respond to criticism with essentially, "You made me hit you." Who in their right mind would trust someone like that? Especially given how easily Romulans in TNG, Changelings in DS9, and Undine and Iconians in STO have all manipulated the Klingons into doing their bidding. In fact, however annoying this trend is from a storytelling perspective, the Klingon vulnerability to manipulation is canonically well-established. It is even reasonable that the Federation might assume the Klingons had themselves been infiltrated YET AGAIN and that trusting their allegations was suicidal.
As a first aside, I would be wary of using certain RL examples. While it may be true that British rule in India was better than British rule in Africa as a general rule... that's still a horribly low bar and does not lend itself to a reasoned debate. As an example, the reasons for the American Revolution come across as almost petty compared to the reasons for other rebellions, revolts, and revolutions... more taxes and restriction of free speech compared to actual/equivalent slavery, induced famines, massacres, legally mandated second/third-class status. But do you see any American patriot agreeing with those sentiments? It's going to be worse where massacres and oppression were commonplace.
As a total aside: I kinda wish Cyrptic would bring more in of the Gorn separatists, because the ambiguity of being a Gorn "collaborator" in the KDF vs. a potential "terrorist" in the resistance is straight out of Deep Space Nine's Bajoran storylines. Or even the Orion Syndicate: how do a bunch of slavers and smugglers bypass Klingon rules? But the Gorn aren't attractive humans with earrings and crinkly noses, so I guess they don't get fun storylines... And the Orions are probably not PG enough...
as you said, "They made the Klingons completely right" about the Undine infiltration, which might indicate to a thinking man that Klingon Intelligence got a thorough revamping after t he near-disaster of the Dominion War...you know, like happens to countries that barely survive a moment of blistering incompetence (with body-counts) here in the real world. one might even suspect that their culture and policies may have changed, fundamentally, between Kirk's era, and the present.
HAH! It got revamped... House Pegh is in charge now! Yeah, those guys you revile for being morons.
Also, if Klingon customs are so idiosyncratic that they're meaningless to outsiders, then outsiders have no reason to care about them. Kinda like how most Romulans seem to think Klingons keep targs around for the witty conversation.
The Klingons possess the capacity to launch a first strike, and the Federation's so authoritarian that decapitation would be catastrophic. The klingons did not do this, even though it's the obvious move given both technical and 'rules of engagement' on a traditional level. They chose a limited border squabble instead of a campaign that would have leveled the federation's infrastructure in hours and left it without command or control.
“Turn the conflict to your advantage,” S’taass replied slowly. “It is a common mistake for people to refuse to deal with their enemies. You can learn from them. Watch them. Discover their motivations. Subvert them. Compromise them. You know by now that the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been allies and enemies alternately for centuries now, yes? Why? Because we are enemies of the Federation when we must be, and allies when we need to be.”
S’taass turned his head again to face her directly and said, “When Gornar was taken, the Gorn were subjugated, and the Federation protested. They fought the Klingons because they wanted to… protect my people’s independence. They fought the Klingons because they did not believe that the Undine threat was as grave as the Klingons said. But it was. And through that war the Federation saw the Undine threat for its reality. Fighting the Federation was the only way that the Empire could prepare them to fight the Undine.”
The goal of the war was to get the Feds to pull their heads out of their butts and get with the program, not conquer it. Why do you think they help foil B'Vat's attempt to unleash a Planet Crusher on the Federation and J'mpok sent you to Utopia Planitia instead of Earth in the "Second Star on the Right" mission with those codes that were only going to work once? He knew Starfleet would be deeply embarrassed by the raid, but they'd have the yards back on line in weeks, if not days....and they'd get over it, because UP is a completely legitimate target by anyone's laws of warfare. Glassing France and/or the US West Coast, OTOH, that's something they'd never forgive...or forget. The Federation isn't Stalinist Russia....the Active Fleets, and the Vulcan, Tellarite and Andorian Governments will still be around even if Earth is destroyed. They aren't going to sit paralyzed, afraid to do anything without orders from the Boss (inconveniently reduced to his component atoms floating about in Earth's stratosphere) lest they be shot for "treason".....they will act, and quickly. Starfleet will form a new chain of command around the senior living Admiral (most likely T'Nae at Starbase 39), a Provisional Federation Council will be appointed by the member species, they will Elect a new President...the contingency plans for this almost certainly exist...and a vendetta will begin that will end badly for the Klingons, win or lose.
I don't think J'mpok COULD have successfully conquered the Federation. I think he tried his best and the laughable result was the Fed/Klingon war story arc. I think anything he said about how he wasn't really trying was just political stuff to avoid looking bad.
Okay, Patrick? Just where exactly are you getting this notion that the border worlds were "leased" to the Federation (especially under the Khitomer Accords, which in canon appear to be little more than a peace treaty and mutual defense pact) instead of simply being a disputed border a la Saudi Arabia and Oman (or in Star Trek, the Cardassian-Federation border until that idiotic treaty)? Because there's no reference whatsoever to a lease or rental agreement or anything similar in either official CBS/Paramount canon or any STO-canon that I have access to from the Internet.
That's a serious question, BTW: do they use that statement in the tie-in novel The Needs of the Many or something? Because it sure as hell isn't in The Path to 2409 or any in-game Klingon fluff, even the online version that had Jake Sisko's interviews with Garak and Worf and the like.
Oh, and here's the real reason the Klingons would never agree to the Geneva Conventions: because it would make Jimmy Pok's actions during the war even more criminal than they are already. Forcible deportation of civilian populations, i.e. one form of ethnic cleansing, breaks Article 49 of Geneva Convention IV.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I don't think J'mpok COULD have successfully conquered the Federation. I think he tried his best and the laughable result was the Fed/Klingon war story arc. I think anything he said about how he wasn't really trying was just political stuff to avoid looking bad.
What S'tass said to Kuumarke does ring true though.....J'mPok probably knows enough from B'Vat and Kor's dealings with the Na'Kul to know that they need the Federation to survive what's coming. He undoubtedly hates that, but he has to play the hand he was dealt whether he likes it or not. With that said, I don't think the Klingons could overwhelm the Federation even if they wanted to....and J'mPok is well aware of it, too.
Okay, Patrick? Just where exactly are you getting this notion that the border worlds were "leased" to the Federation (especially under the Khitomer Accords, which in canon appear to be little more than a peace treaty and mutual defense pact) instead of simply being a disputed border a la Saudi Arabia and Oman (or in Star Trek, the Cardassian-Federation border until that idiotic treaty)? Because there's no reference whatsoever to a lease or rental agreement or anything similar in either official CBS/Paramount canon or any STO-canon that I have access to from the Internet.
That's a serious question, BTW: do they use that statement in the tie-in novel The Needs of the Many or something? Because it sure as hell isn't in The Path to 2409 or any in-game Klingon fluff, even the online version that had Jake Sisko's interviews with Garak and Worf and the like.
Oh, and here's the real reason the Klingons would never agree to the Geneva Conventions: because it would make Jimmy Pok's actions during the war even more criminal than they are already. Forcible deportation of civilian populations, i.e. one form of ethnic cleansing, breaks Article 49 of Geneva Convention IV.
I'm wondering too, now.....could have sworn I read it somewhere but now I cannot find it.
I don't think J'mpok COULD have successfully conquered the Federation. I think he tried his best and the laughable result was the Fed/Klingon war story arc. I think anything he said about how he wasn't really trying was just political stuff to avoid looking bad.
This seems a lot more likely, given the remarkable underperformance of the forces under his command when he invaded Romulan space after Hobus. According to the Path to 2409, despite the fact that what was left of the Star Empire was split about fifteen different ways at the time, he got a warbird-sized boot in his rear from Admiral Taris and went running back to Qo'noS, which led to an Imperial reunification and Taris's ascension to praetor, all of which being the exact opposite of what Jimmy wanted. Like I said earlier in the thread, the canon version of J'mpok is a decent statesman but worthless as a military commander. (Seriously, who do you think suggested Zapp Kagran to begin with?)
As far as the Federation eating crow during the Dyson conference, I prefer to interpret that basically as the Federation going along to get along. "Yeah, sure, you're the heroes of the century, whatever, now can we get to dealing with the problem at hand please?"
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I don't think J'mpok COULD have successfully conquered the Federation. I think he tried his best and the laughable result was the Fed/Klingon war story arc. I think anything he said about how he wasn't really trying was just political stuff to avoid looking bad.
What S'tass said to Kuumarke does ring true though.....J'mPok probably knows enough from B'Vat and Kor's dealings with the Na'Kul to know that they need the Federation to survive what's coming. He undoubtedly hates that, but he has to play the hand he was dealt whether he likes it or not. With that said, I don't think the Klingons could overwhelm the Federation even if they wanted to....and J'mPok is well aware of it, too.
Right, but do they need the people of the Federation, or the government of the Federation?
Okay, Patrick? Just where exactly are you getting this notion that the border worlds were "leased" to the Federation (especially under the Khitomer Accords, which in canon appear to be little more than a peace treaty and mutual defense pact) instead of simply being a disputed border a la Saudi Arabia and Oman (or in Star Trek, the Cardassian-Federation border until that idiotic treaty)? Because there's no reference whatsoever to a lease or rental agreement or anything similar in either official CBS/Paramount canon or any STO-canon that I have access to from the Internet.
That's a serious question, BTW: do they use that statement in the tie-in novel The Needs of the Many or something? Because it sure as hell isn't in The Path to 2409 or any in-game Klingon fluff, even the online version that had Jake Sisko's interviews with Garak and Worf and the like.
Oh, and here's the real reason the Klingons would never agree to the Geneva Conventions: because it would make Jimmy Pok's actions during the war even more criminal than they are already. Forcible deportation of civilian populations, i.e. one form of ethnic cleansing, breaks Article 49 of Geneva Convention IV.
I'm wondering too, now.....could have sworn I read it somewhere but now I cannot find it.
Whereas the Federation descends from the United Nations position that your borders are your borders and you aren't allowed to expand them at the expense of another country without the freely given consent of the people who actually live there. (The fact that this still happens on Earth just proves what a complete waste of air the UN is.)
* English History 101: William the B*stard had been promised the throne by Harold's predecessor Edward the Confessor, who changed his mind to Harold on his deathbed (under Anglo-Saxon law a deathbed bequeathal was considered of greater precedence than anything agreed earlier in the decedent's life). Harald's father Magnus was similarly promised the throne by Edward, while Sweyn was descended from Cnut the Great, who had been emperor of England, Denmark and Norway. Sweyn wasn't interested, Harold killed Harald at Stamford Bridge, and then William got lucky at Hastings and killed Harold.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Right, but do they need the people of the Federation, or the government of the Federation?
It's kinda a package deal, unless J'mpok has the charisma and political acumen to made a direct appeal to the Federation Citizenry and persuade them to either pressure the current Administration...or Elect a different one...that will change policy in the way he wants. I don't think he would have the first clue how to do that, if it's even possible.
Right, but do they need the people of the Federation, or the government of the Federation?
It's kinda a package deal, unless J'mpok has the charisma and political acumen to made a direct appeal to the Federation Citizenry and persuade them to either pressure the current Administration...or Elect a different one...that will change policy in the way he wants. I don't think he would have the first clue how to do that, if it's even possible.
What I was getting at was the idea that he could achieve the same end result but forcing the Federation to be servants of the empire.
What I was getting at was the idea that he could achieve the same end result but forcing the Federation to be servants of the empire.
I fail to see how the Klingons would be successful in Finlandizing the Federation. As much as the writers in TNG and TRIBBLE wanted us to believe the Klingons were too OP to beat, that scenario just isn't happening unless the Federation simply rolls over and gives up, letting them win by default. And given the true nature of Humans, Andorians , and Vulcans...and perhaps Tellarites, too...that isn't likely to happen.
What I was getting at was the idea that he could achieve the same end result but forcing the Federation to be servants of the empire.
I fail to see how the Klingons would be successful in Finlandizing the Federation. As much as the writers in TNG and TRIBBLE wanted us to believe the Klingons were too OP to beat, that scenario just isn't happening unless the Federation simply rolls over and gives up, letting them win by default. And given the true nature of Humans, Andorians , and Vulcans...and perhaps Tellarites, too...that isn't likely to happen.
I think I'd be MOST worried about the Tellarites! Sure, Andorians are warriors, and Vulcans are Romulans on Prozac, and Humans are...well, we've had ample demonstrations over the centuries of what WE are! But Tellarites? They'd fight like demons out of sheer contrariness! Tell them that they are no match for a Klingon. Tell them you think they're AFRAID of the Klingons. Or just tell them that Klingon fashion trends indicate that Tellarites are the new Targs and everyone should own a couple, and they'd give one outraged squeal and declare war on the Empire without stopping to mention it to the Federation Council. Heck, have you SEEN a boar-spear? They had crossbars on them to keep the wild boars from charging straight UP the impaling spear and goring the hunter! Fighting pigs is no joke!
What I was getting at was the idea that he could achieve the same end result but forcing the Federation to be servants of the empire.
I fail to see how the Klingons would be successful in Finlandizing the Federation. As much as the writers in TNG and TRIBBLE wanted us to believe the Klingons were too OP to beat, that scenario just isn't happening unless the Federation simply rolls over and gives up, letting them win by default. And given the true nature of Humans, Andorians , and Vulcans...and perhaps Tellarites, too...that isn't likely to happen.
I'm not saying I think it was a viable plan, just that it's the sort of plan J'mpok was probably willing to try.
funny enough, it was part of the answers in the Academy lore mission until fairly recently. Might wanna check the edit logs on STOWiki to find out when it was altered there.
Don't be ridiculous, this is the current statement:
On Stardate 81753.16, Chancellor J'mpok informed the Federation ambassador that he was invoking ancient claims to the Hromi Cluster and the sectors surrounding it, an area that had been ceded to the Federation for decades.
That hasn't been changed recently.
J'mpok basically tore up a treaty to give himself an excuse for war.
And just in case you feel like questioning the accuracy of the wiki again:
> @markhawkman said: > patrickngo wrote: » > > funny enough, it was part of the answers in the Academy lore mission until fairly recently. Might wanna check the edit logs on STOWiki to find out when it was altered there. > > > > Don't be ridiculous, this is the current statement: On Stardate 81753.16, Chancellor J'mpok informed the Federation ambassador that he was invoking ancient claims to the Hromi Cluster and the sectors surrounding it, an area that had been ceded to the Federation for decades. > > > > That hasn't been changed recently. > > J'mpok basically tore up a treaty to give himself an excuse for war. > > And just in case you feel like questioning the accuracy of the wiki again:
It's also phrased the same way in an archived copy of the Path to 2409 I have from the old STO website (the version with Jake's interviews). https://tinyurl.com/yc6djdgk
I think Patrick's conflating Masterverse canon with actual game canon TBH.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
That's my favorite one, right there. Klingon gets intel that a Federation ambassador and former Councillor might be an Undine, right? So he flies all the way to the Federation core worlds during a declared war against the Federation to... decloak in front of the ambassador's Starfleet escort and demand that they hand him over to an enemy combatant?
In what universe does that seem sensible even by Klingon standards?
He's just lucky it wasn't forty years earlier and he wasn't trying that with the Cardassians: remember what that one guy did to Picard when he was similarly stupid in the backstory of "The Wounded"? Instead of taking a cheap shot, the commander of the escorting ship actually bothers to entertain this request and ask for evidence.
The Klingon takes umbrage at this ridiculous demand and says "talk to my disruptors". Of course, he's flying an uncloaked bird-of-prey against a light cruiser and gets blown out of space in thirty seconds.
(Skip to 2:04 if it doesn't go there by itself.)
And consider the fact that J'mpok wanted a war with the Federation several years before anyone knew the Undine had disregarded the agreement from "In the Flesh". Way back in 2387 or '88, he tried to start a fight for no other reason than that Worf had been in command of a Klingon task force that was trashed by Nero, despite the fact that Worf had actually personally boarded the Narada and nearly spared us having to watch that mediocre movie. Martok laughed Jimmy Pok out of the High Council chambers, which was the beginning of their feud.
The Undine were never anything more to Jimmy Pok than an excuse to withdraw from the Khitomer Accords so he could declare war on the Federation to occupy a disputed region without having to fend off accusations of oathbreaking (i.e. maintaining quv).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
What was there to talk about? They have no legitimate reason to be skulking around the Federation's Core Worlds when there is a war on.....I would not have even bothered to answer their hails and immediately engaged them before they could threaten the lives of the Federation Citizens in the P'Jem system as was my Duty. Even if I bothered to listen to them, nothing would have changed. The idea of handing over any Federation citizen to them was completely absurd....believing their own propaganda and assuming that Starfleet Captains were sniveling cowards who would comply with such a demand to save their own skins would quickly prove a fatal mistake on their part.
That's kind of my point. The Klingon was incredibly stupid to think a Starfleet Captain would hand over a Federation citizen based solely on his word, and that by even asking for evidence was very reasonable on the Starfleet Captain's part.
Yeah, as I recall, Jimmy Pok invaded first (after spending the better part of ten years agitating for war with the Gorn and then taking the Orion Syndicate onboard as allies) and only then made a token effort to get his "ally" that had spent the better part of the same ten years trying to prevent a war onboard.* Like I said, the Undine were just a convenient excuse.
After the war, sure, the Federation ended up with egg on its face, but there's this funny thing about breaking an alliance: it means your former ally is no longer obligated to put up with your cr*p.
* This of course coming twenty years or so after the most devastating war in modern history from which even the Klingon Empire was still recovering.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Discussing it with that Klingon captain? that's a matter of gathering intelligence. He obviously went to a lot of risk to meet you. If you can find out why simply by asking nicely? the information might be useful later.
My character Tsin'xing
Actually giving up Soketh would be "Misbehavior Before the Enemy", I'd say violations of Sections (2), (5), (8) and (9) of Article 99 if using the UCMJ as a guide. In a better age such a captain would be cashiered and shot for it.
Honestly, you give the Empire too much credit. It is not a great medium or long-term survival strategy to randomly attack anyone who disagrees with you, since all that does is give them an excellent reason to attack you in turn and disagree with you in any event. J'mpok's initial characterization was definitly the kind of reactionary "return to the old ways" style of figure whose nostalgic obsession with a nonexistant past overrides more reasoned behavior. As previous posters noted, Klingon aggressiveness against the Cardassians drove them straight into the Dominion, and it turned out that the Changelings had infiltrated the Klingons to high levels. Cryptic even acknowledged this in "Stop the Signal" when one Klingon officer turned out to be Undine. The fact that Cryptic spun around so fast on making the KDF completely right instead of ambiguously right was depressing, because in real life your belief in your motives matters almost nothing in international politics; rather, it is how well you can persuade and demonstrate to others that they are valid. I would also point out that any attack on a homeworld would incite a proportionate response, and it wasn't the Klingons who came up with the Genesis Device, made functional Augments (pre-warp humans), or split off to make their own high-tech insidious empire (Romulans)... I rather suspect there wouldn't be a Qo'nos, if even an Empire, after a gloves-off Federation was finished with them. To paraphrase from another series, an unambiguously good civilizaion wouldn't need so many rules and regulations; it is not the time to learn why the Federation/Starfleet has so many.
As for Klingon "Honor," Star Trek has neatly encapsulated why so many RL honor systems, especially martial ones, cause so much strife and pain. The Klingon sense of honor is entirely focused inwards, with outsiders at best considered near-honorable, even when they prove themselves loyal allies (See Worf, who will likely never considered be culturally Klingon to anyone outside of House Martok, even though his knowledge probably rivals any loremaster). What else justifies military-grade warships targeting unaffiliated civilian vessels from under cloak, or battle fleets expelling civilian populations as honorable? Consider Khitomer, a sneak attack on a nonmilitary colony; the Klingons still held a grudge against the entire Romulan people for decades after the fact. Yet they have no problem attacking civilian targets of others, and respond to criticism with essentially, "You made me hit you." Who in their right mind would trust someone like that? Especially given how easily Romulans in TNG, Changelings in DS9, and Undine and Iconians in STO have all manipulated the Klingons into doing their bidding. In fact, however annoying this trend is from a storytelling perspective, the Klingon vulnerability to manipulation is canonically well-established. It is even reasonable that the Federation might assume the Klingons had themselves been infiltrated YET AGAIN and that trusting their allegations was suicidal.
As a first aside, I would be wary of using certain RL examples. While it may be true that British rule in India was better than British rule in Africa as a general rule... that's still a horribly low bar and does not lend itself to a reasoned debate. As an example, the reasons for the American Revolution come across as almost petty compared to the reasons for other rebellions, revolts, and revolutions... more taxes and restriction of free speech compared to actual/equivalent slavery, induced famines, massacres, legally mandated second/third-class status. But do you see any American patriot agreeing with those sentiments? It's going to be worse where massacres and oppression were commonplace.
As a total aside: I kinda wish Cyrptic would bring more in of the Gorn separatists, because the ambiguity of being a Gorn "collaborator" in the KDF vs. a potential "terrorist" in the resistance is straight out of Deep Space Nine's Bajoran storylines. Or even the Orion Syndicate: how do a bunch of slavers and smugglers bypass Klingon rules? But the Gorn aren't attractive humans with earrings and crinkly noses, so I guess they don't get fun storylines... And the Orions are probably not PG enough...
Also, if Klingon customs are so idiosyncratic that they're meaningless to outsiders, then outsiders have no reason to care about them. Kinda like how most Romulans seem to think Klingons keep targs around for the witty conversation.
My character Tsin'xing
Sterilize Earth, or nuke Paris and/or San Francisco? You do realize that J'mPok didn't want a war of annihilation, don't you?
The goal of the war was to get the Feds to pull their heads out of their butts and get with the program, not conquer it. Why do you think they help foil B'Vat's attempt to unleash a Planet Crusher on the Federation and J'mpok sent you to Utopia Planitia instead of Earth in the "Second Star on the Right" mission with those codes that were only going to work once? He knew Starfleet would be deeply embarrassed by the raid, but they'd have the yards back on line in weeks, if not days....and they'd get over it, because UP is a completely legitimate target by anyone's laws of warfare. Glassing France and/or the US West Coast, OTOH, that's something they'd never forgive...or forget. The Federation isn't Stalinist Russia....the Active Fleets, and the Vulcan, Tellarite and Andorian Governments will still be around even if Earth is destroyed. They aren't going to sit paralyzed, afraid to do anything without orders from the Boss (inconveniently reduced to his component atoms floating about in Earth's stratosphere) lest they be shot for "treason".....they will act, and quickly. Starfleet will form a new chain of command around the senior living Admiral (most likely T'Nae at Starbase 39), a Provisional Federation Council will be appointed by the member species, they will Elect a new President...the contingency plans for this almost certainly exist...and a vendetta will begin that will end badly for the Klingons, win or lose.
My character Tsin'xing
That's a serious question, BTW: do they use that statement in the tie-in novel The Needs of the Many or something? Because it sure as hell isn't in The Path to 2409 or any in-game Klingon fluff, even the online version that had Jake Sisko's interviews with Garak and Worf and the like.
Oh, and here's the real reason the Klingons would never agree to the Geneva Conventions: because it would make Jimmy Pok's actions during the war even more criminal than they are already. Forcible deportation of civilian populations, i.e. one form of ethnic cleansing, breaks Article 49 of Geneva Convention IV.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
What S'tass said to Kuumarke does ring true though.....J'mPok probably knows enough from B'Vat and Kor's dealings with the Na'Kul to know that they need the Federation to survive what's coming. He undoubtedly hates that, but he has to play the hand he was dealt whether he likes it or not. With that said, I don't think the Klingons could overwhelm the Federation even if they wanted to....and J'mPok is well aware of it, too.
I'm wondering too, now.....could have sworn I read it somewhere but now I cannot find it.
This seems a lot more likely, given the remarkable underperformance of the forces under his command when he invaded Romulan space after Hobus. According to the Path to 2409, despite the fact that what was left of the Star Empire was split about fifteen different ways at the time, he got a warbird-sized boot in his rear from Admiral Taris and went running back to Qo'noS, which led to an Imperial reunification and Taris's ascension to praetor, all of which being the exact opposite of what Jimmy wanted. Like I said earlier in the thread, the canon version of J'mpok is a decent statesman but worthless as a military commander. (Seriously, who do you think suggested Zapp Kagran to begin with?)
As far as the Federation eating crow during the Dyson conference, I prefer to interpret that basically as the Federation going along to get along. "Yeah, sure, you're the heroes of the century, whatever, now can we get to dealing with the problem at hand please?"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
What I know offhand is in the Path to 2409, which says that the Klingons cited "ancient claims to the Hromi Cluster and the sectors surrounding it, an area that had been ceded to the Federation for decades." Which goes back to the Game of Thrones thing: Jimmy Pok demanding those sectors back is basically the same thing as any medieval-style "claim on the throne", e.g. William of Normandy, Harald Hardrada, and Sweyn II Estridsson of Denmark all having a "right" to the throne of England occupied by Harold Godwinson.* In other words, it's a pretext to take what you want and stab people you don't like.
Whereas the Federation descends from the United Nations position that your borders are your borders and you aren't allowed to expand them at the expense of another country without the freely given consent of the people who actually live there. (The fact that this still happens on Earth just proves what a complete waste of air the UN is.)
* English History 101: William the B*stard had been promised the throne by Harold's predecessor Edward the Confessor, who changed his mind to Harold on his deathbed (under Anglo-Saxon law a deathbed bequeathal was considered of greater precedence than anything agreed earlier in the decedent's life). Harald's father Magnus was similarly promised the throne by Edward, while Sweyn was descended from Cnut the Great, who had been emperor of England, Denmark and Norway. Sweyn wasn't interested, Harold killed Harald at Stamford Bridge, and then William got lucky at Hastings and killed Harold.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
It's kinda a package deal, unless J'mpok has the charisma and political acumen to made a direct appeal to the Federation Citizenry and persuade them to either pressure the current Administration...or Elect a different one...that will change policy in the way he wants. I don't think he would have the first clue how to do that, if it's even possible.
My character Tsin'xing
I fail to see how the Klingons would be successful in Finlandizing the Federation. As much as the writers in TNG and TRIBBLE wanted us to believe the Klingons were too OP to beat, that scenario just isn't happening unless the Federation simply rolls over and gives up, letting them win by default. And given the true nature of Humans, Andorians , and Vulcans...and perhaps Tellarites, too...that isn't likely to happen.
I think I'd be MOST worried about the Tellarites! Sure, Andorians are warriors, and Vulcans are Romulans on Prozac, and Humans are...well, we've had ample demonstrations over the centuries of what WE are! But Tellarites? They'd fight like demons out of sheer contrariness! Tell them that they are no match for a Klingon. Tell them you think they're AFRAID of the Klingons. Or just tell them that Klingon fashion trends indicate that Tellarites are the new Targs and everyone should own a couple, and they'd give one outraged squeal and declare war on the Empire without stopping to mention it to the Federation Council. Heck, have you SEEN a boar-spear? They had crossbars on them to keep the wild boars from charging straight UP the impaling spear and goring the hunter! Fighting pigs is no joke!
My character Tsin'xing
J'mpok basically tore up a treaty to give himself an excuse for war.
And just in case you feel like questioning the accuracy of the wiki again:
My character Tsin'xing
> patrickngo wrote: »
>
> funny enough, it was part of the answers in the Academy lore mission until fairly recently. Might wanna check the edit logs on STOWiki to find out when it was altered there.
>
>
>
> Don't be ridiculous, this is the current statement: On Stardate 81753.16, Chancellor J'mpok informed the Federation ambassador that he was invoking ancient claims to the Hromi Cluster and the sectors surrounding it, an area that had been ceded to the Federation for decades.
>
>
>
> That hasn't been changed recently.
>
> J'mpok basically tore up a treaty to give himself an excuse for war.
>
> And just in case you feel like questioning the accuracy of the wiki again:
It's also phrased the same way in an archived copy of the Path to 2409 I have from the old STO website (the version with Jake's interviews). https://tinyurl.com/yc6djdgk
I think Patrick's conflating Masterverse canon with actual game canon TBH.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/