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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    I don't think J'mpok COULD have successfully conquered the Federation. I think he tried his best and the laughable result was the Fed/Klingon war story arc. I think anything he said about how he wasn't really trying was just political stuff to avoid looking bad.
    I see nothing in the Fed/Klingon war that indicates he wanted to, or even tried to, actually conquer the Federation.

    If anything, the entire Fed/KDF war seemed like a ploy to get the Federation actively participating in the Undine conflict(even if it meant fighting the Klingons as well), despite the fact the Federation had been trying its hardest to bury its head in the sand and act like nothing was going on.
    I don't believe that because he started acting belligerent BEFORE finding any Undine at all.

    From: https://sto.gamepedia.com/Accolade/Lore
    This is a heavily condensed version, and one that skips most of the Romulan infighting, legal disputes about androids and photonics, and the stuff about the Cardassians and Ferengi...

    3:3, The Romulan war was started under Martok by General Mojog. This began by attempting to annex part of the RSE during the Romulan civil war, starting with Khitomer.
    4:4 This ticked off the Federation council enough for a public vote on whether to officially denounce this act. The Klingon councillors didn't like that Martok actually cared whether the Feds approved of capturing Khitomer.

    5:4 conflicts start between the Gorn and Klingons when a Gorn ship(probably controlled by Undine, but this isn't confirmed) attacks and destroys a Klingon ship.

    7:5 The actual war didn't start for a few years and it was the Klingons who attacked at Gila VI.

    Chapter 8.8 Martok sends a fleet into Romulan space after Nero, Worf is one of the commanders. They get trashed and most of the ships destroyed.

    9:2, Martok tells the Romulans he has no interest in helping them after the Hobus disaster and even makes a veiled threat.

    9:3, J'mpok starts calling for the Empire to get payback for the loss of the fleet that pursued Nero.

    10:2, Klingon fleets start attacking Romulan space and capture Tranome Sar and Nequencia. Slathis makes a pact with the Nausicaans to get the ships he needs to hold off the continued Klingon advance.

    11:1 Nausicaan raiders start pillaging worlds and shipping near the Klingon-Gorn border.

    12:2, J'dah(an ally of J'mpok's) attempts to assassinate the Federation ambassadors who were attempting to broker a truce between the Klingons and Gorn. Following this the war resumed with vigor.

    12:4, J'mpok gathers a fleet loyal to him, invades Zeta Pictoris, and gets handed his targ on a platter by Taris.

    13:2, Aennik Okeg attempts to negotiate a peace between the Gorn and Klingons. But the talks never even get started, and collapse when a Gorn/Nausicaan fleet attacks Ogat. Then Martok declares negotiations at an end.

    13:3, J'mpok demands that Martok launcha full invasion of Gorn space, when Martok urges caution, J'mpok calls him a "weak old man".

    14:2 the conflict between Martok and J'mpok reaches a boiling point and culminates in their fateful duel.

    15:1, J'mpok starts negotiations with Melani Di'an and rather quickly forges an alliance.

    16:5, Ja'rod gets ambushed by a small group of Undine, but manages to kill two and interrogate the third.

    18:2 J'mpok uses his power as Chancellor to erase past ruling against House of Duras after allying with them.

    19:5 yet another Federation sponsored attempt at peace between Klingons and Gorn. Yet another bombing and dissolution of talks. Some suggested that J'mpok's real goal was to assassinate the Klingon ambassador appointed by Martok.

    20:4, Ja'rod briefs J'mpok and the Council on the Undine threat. The immediate response is a massive invasion of Gorn space.

    20.5: AFTER his invasion of Gorn space J'mpok demands that the Federation help subjugate Gornar. There is no discussion of what evidence he provided to the Federation of the Undine presence. It's entirely possible he declined to provide evidence. This is when he removes the Empire from the Khitomer Accords.

    22:3 Councillor Konjah is revealed to be an Undine and his entire house is hunted down and executed.

    22:5, special Fed council session about the Undine threat is called.. Chakotay recommends trying to help the Empire fight the Undine.

    23:1, The Klingons and Orions finally attack Gornar.

    24:1, Gornar gets conquered.

    24:3, J'mpok finally finds Undine hiding among the Gorn.

    25:3 J'mpok decides to renege on the treaty ceding Hromi to the Federation.

    26:1 J'mpok responds by attacking Korvat.

    26:6, a Gorn fleet acting as part of the KDF attacks K-7

    27:1, the KDF begins a campaign to capture the Archanis sector.

    28:1, When Okeg tries to begin peace talks, J'mpok responds with "No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts, peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time. Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."

    29:1, KDF invades Cestus 3.

    So, yes, J'mpok is a warmongering jerk who wanted to annex the Gorn BEFORE anyone even saw an Undine. Also he personally attacked the Romulans when the Empire wasn't actually at war with them! If not for the instabilities due to the Romulan civil war and Hobus, Taris might have done a lot more than just blow up several of his ships in retaliation for his attack.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Path came first. a lot first. (I considered it out of character for the Klingons to allow the federation to use their territory in the first place-it didn't make sense at the time I read it the first time.)
    It wasn't "allow to use". It is flat stated that Hromi was Federation space. It used to be Klingon space, but not now.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    You're ignoring one thing above all else. The Federation will NOT help the Empire attack a third party unless the Federation has reason to declare war. So all your claims about how the Federation was somehow OBLIGATED to help the Empire attack the Gorn are complete nonsense. Now if the Gorn had invade Klingon space then yes, the Federation would have a reason to act against the Gorn, but that's exactly what Slathis and Xrathis didn't do.
    With confrontational people you have to take a side.
    If the Empire hadn't had a peace treaty with the Federation, the Feds would have given them the "Vulcan hello" and dictated terms afterwards. Instead Nan Bacco and Aennik Okeg tried to maintain the fragile peace instead of kicking Martok and J'mpok in the teeth like they deserved.
    you're trying to pretend that the only view that matters, is the Federation's view.
    Oh really? What about the Gorn and Romulans? Taris showed J'mpok what her viewpoint on his aggressive actions was. ALL of Martok and J'mpok's attacks against the Romulans were based on seeing them as vulnerable and weak. It was naked aggression against a race they were at peace with(yes, really, this is post-Dominion war, the RSE isn't hostile to EITHER the Feds or KDF) who fought alongside them during the Dominion War. For all their talk of "honor", Klingons are as un-trustworthy as you try to make the Feds. And this is why the Federation tried to force the attacks against the Romulans to stop. Because the Klingons were trying to start a war out of BOREDOM. I now wonder if maybe the Khitomer massacre all those years ago wasn't as unprovoked as the Klingons say. On a good day Klingons are like that annoying neighbor dog that barks all the time, on a bad day they're a pack of rabid dogs that needs to be shot.

    Slathis wasn't even Gorn king when hostilities started! That was his father Xrathis! I don't think J'mpok made Gornar a vassal state because he was being nice. I think he wanted the war to be done with quickly because he didn't want to fight for every inch of Gorn and Nausicaan space.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    czechmarkczechmark Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Whereas the Federation descends from the United Nations position that your borders are your borders and you aren't allowed to expand them at the expense of another country without the freely given consent of the people who actually live there. (The fact that this still happens on Earth just proves what a complete waste of air the UN is.)

    To be fair to the UN, the UN is not a sovereign state, and thus has none of the rights and authority such states possess (the right to use coersive force - military or police action - is one such right). This was by design - the UN was intended as a forum for nations to come together, resolve disputes, and origanize international pressure (economic or military) to deal with grave offenders of international treaties. That is still a pretty radical concept, since previous international custom held that whatever you did in your borders regarding your own subjects/citizens (including persecution and mass killings) was your own business. As such, it is only when actual nations contribute effort to the cause, that the UN can to do anything (UN peacekeepers are always standard troops from other countries, for example; the UN has no right to an army). The problem is not that countries will try and evade the rules, it is that other countries may be reluctant to act on such breaches at all. One of the reasons that "ethnic cleaning" is used instead of "genocide" is for that reason; genocide is actionable under the Geneva Convention and states are in deriliction of treaty if they don't send military forces in to stop it, but ethnic cleansing merits stern letters and worthless sanctions (see http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CrimeOfGenocide.aspx). Hence why even if UN has condemned various invasions, if no concensus is reached by key members (the Security Council) or worse, a permanent member of the Security Council is involved (US, UK, France, Russia, China), there may be nothing anyone else can do.

    Sadly, improving the UN would require a majority of nations great and small to sacrifice a measure of their national soverignty, which given history and current political disputes, remains highly unlikely.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    one of the main ways you hold an Empire, is to make it clear that attacks will face retaliation. (check on Rome at its high point, or China during theirs.)

    not 'may' or 'might' or 'when it is convenient', but Will face retaliation.

    ...

    The Gorn attacked a Klingon ship-there will be retaliation, and it will be disproportional, 'to discourage others' from doing the same.
    And this is why the Federation condemned it. As you say, it's excessive retaliation.

    Also... it's not actually spelled out WHY the Gorn destroyed the Klingon ship. Knowing the way Klingons behave it's possible that the Klingon ship fired on the Gorn ship after the Klingon captain got into an argument with the Gorn captain. Which is the core problem with your idea.
    think of it this way: when you shove a Klingon, he doesn't cower and then call the cops, followed by six months of trauma counseling. He beats your ****, and if you survive, he MIGHT call the cops to come collect you.
    When you apply that sort of behavior to an entire civilization's daily life.... you have people killing each other in bar fights pretty much daily. Which isn't particularly bad when it's drunken morons beating each other to death in a bar. But when it's applied to border disputes... well... that's when your galactic neighbors decide diplomacy is useless, and they treat you like a rabid dog that needs to be put out of everyone's misery.
    you can maybe look at it as 'the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law' drives their thinking, because so much of their laws and social structure are less formal than you're used to experiencing.
    Is it? I doubt that. That sounds more like an excuse to "creatively interpret" anything they don't want to follow the letter of.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    czechmarkczechmark Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    There are a few problems with your analysis...
    patrickngo wrote: »
    see, there's your humanocentric viewpoint. Martok saw the Gorn as attacking the empire. While humans might be just fine with, say, one nation lobbing cruise missiles (or dropping JDAMs) on their citizens, and replying with a sternly worded note, (or, say, launching mortar attacks on civilian areas daily for over a year and doing nothing about it...) Klingons have never, in canon, worked that way until Discovery.

    You have a very... limited view of international relations and human nature. Perhaps the biggest issue is that there is really no inclusive concept of humanity in law (though human rights law, which actually would apply to non-human sapiants, seeks to redress that). Essentially one might be a full person within the territory of their state of residence, but not elsewhere (citizen versus foreign national). As such, a given nation or faction will react swiftly to attacks against those they see as their own, but may be apathetic regarding harm to those seen as outside the group. Not that this is right or should be, but this is how humans seem to work.

    "Sternly written notes" tend to come in when Nation A (United States) is worried that Nation B (Russia/China) will react badly to A using military force against Nation C (North Korea). You r example of people being apathetic about the harm to those they care about does not, and never truly has, existed on Earth anywhere a targeted group has the means to do something about it.
    one of the main ways you hold an Empire, is to make it clear that attacks will face retaliation. (check on Rome at its high point, or China during theirs.)

    not 'may' or 'might' or 'when it is convenient', but Will face retaliation.

    Ah, but then you run into the problem of being hated or despised (see Chapter 19 of Machiavelli's The Prince). As has been demonstrated multiple times in history, punishments designed to inflict fear do not create respect, which implies admiration for a person. Rather, they risk hatred, which can overcome fear responses and motivate horrible reprisals in turn. Quite a few conflict areas are the result of escalating cycles of revenge, where each side feels justified in committing disproportionate acts (much of the Middle-East). I would also point out that Rome and China were both masters of diplomacy, and at their height of power deployed diplomats and spies as well as armies.

    Moreover, no form of earth-based life reacts to overwhelming fear rationally. In general, creatures with fear responses flee from threats, cower and hide, or fight back. No reason to assume that's different in the franchise. The problem with disproportionate response is that it makes hiding and fleeing impossible, especially if something crucial is targeted (say family or home). Fighting is the only response, since destroying the disproportionate retributor is the only sure way to stop the attacks (and get revenge in turn). Take the response to the Borg, after all. They do nothing but devestate their targets, wiping out entire civilizations. Did their appearance cause any of the Alpha-Beta Quadrant species to bend knee? Not in the least. Just because the Klingons might hold such a philosophy does not justify it as valid, nor need you defend it as such.
    Which Taris amply demonstrated when the Klingons attacked the Romulan Empire-but that was a fight both sides had been in before, and a feud that was mutually comfortable. (not to mention an embarrassment for Jimmy-Pok and for Worf, Martok's Rival and closest possible replacement respectively).

    you see, you're still looking at this through the lens of modern western civilization, and in particular, Western European ideas where even a really nasty attack isn't going to be responded to without first appeasing the attackers.

    think of it this way: when you shove a Klingon, he doesn't cower and then call the cops, followed by six months of trauma counseling. He beats your ****, and if you survive, he MIGHT call the cops to come collect you.

    it's a fundamentally different mindset from the modern, urban middle-class western Europe or even Eastern and coastal Americas.

    The Gorn attacked a Klingon ship-there will be retaliation, and it will be disproportional, 'to discourage others' from doing the same.

    Firstly, the concept of proportionality is found in most human cultures, not just Western or American ones. The idea of "an eye for an eye," is not sanctioning revenge, it is limiting it to a "fair" penalty. Weregild, the substitution of money or goods for physical punishment, is a similar idea (and part of the history in developing modern litigation). In fact, the idea was that once the fine was paid or the punishment was done, that was it. Someone pushed it further, they were the criminals now. Applies in both ancient and modern international law as well.

    You also assume this is purely a western culture-based criticism of the Klingons... that is quite incorrect. International law has existed for centuries, diplomacy and limits of self-defense included. Do not underestimate the savvy of ancient cultures, even warrior ones. The ones who survive, like the Romans, knew when and when not to fight. The ones who didn't, like Sparta, were subjugated or exterminated. People do stupid trespasses like the Gorn attack all the time, and it is only when people want war that they act on it in dramatic fashion. For example, the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand was nothing more than an excuse to annex Serbia, starting WWI. In fact Serbia actually all but grovelled, agreeing to every humiliating term except for transfer of Serbian lands to the Empire, for which there was no reasonable basis. The war ended, as you probably know, with the collapse and forced division of the Austria-Hungarian Empire, and it likely could have survived to the present day had the invasion not taken place.
    it balances uncertainties too, with certainties. among the certainties, is that you don't want to cross a Klingon, because the response will not be fun (unless he actually started it. THEN you'd better fight or he won't respect you, if you do, then there will be LOTS of respect, especially if you fight well and hard...even if you lose.)

    the 'uncertainty' being you don't know how MUCH payback they're going to deliver, or when, or where.

    Again, real humans don't react to this situation rationally. You threaten someone with disproportionate force, they will see you as a threat to be destroyed. Period. Anyone who argues that this tactic works clearly thinks they are dealing with subhumans, because actual humans almost invarable resist. No indication that any Trek Species, Klingons included, would be any different.

    Now certainly the Klingons may believe this, and promote it as just and proper. But that does not validate it in practice nor in real-life precedence, nor does it justify it. In fact, this is just another reason why the Federation or any other faction cannot trust Klingons; I disagree with you for potentially valid reasons and you say "die oath-traitor"? Who in their right mind would trust someone like that? Nothing you have said makes that in-game fact any different. Frankly, the Dominion takes that same position: all solids are threats and only disproportionate force will stop them. How did most Alpha-Beta quadrant species react to Dominion tactics once they realized what was happening? By banding together to fight them, and it is only because the Dominion can literally throw away Jem'Hadar soldiers and ships like trash that the battle was even one-sided. All three powers rapidly closed the technology gap, once they had the incentive, and the easy response would have been to surrender. For that matter, the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar strike on what they thought was the Founder Homeworld was just the same: a brutal preemptive strike to deal with Changeling infiltrators and warmongering that gave the Founders an excuse to see Cardassians and Romulans as vermin to be exterminated. Even if they had won, the Jem'Hadar would never have stood down as long as the "killers" of their "gods" were still drawing breath. The Klingons and the Federation would do the same, many Romulans did that in STO, which is one of the more realistic examples.
    Klingons aren't like modern western european cultures-they take things like 'making a promise' a little more seriously (and take making threats a bit LESS seriously), and since they don't have a litigious society where symbolism and exact wording to weasel out are embraced, those deals are written as simply as possible to give them maximum interpretive room. Kirk wasn't given life on Rura Penthe for killing a weakened chancellor, he was given life because it looked a whole lot like he wanted all Klingons dead, and maybe wanted to start a war to get that result.

    Klingons have their own lawyers and courts (The Undiscovered Country, TOS film even), one of whom was played by Michael Dorn played said role, in fact. Referenced again in Enterprise (Judgment) with a Klingon Lawyer whose criticism of the Court's dishonor leaves him imprisoned on Rura Penthe. All canon. Frankly, the Klingons are like the Ferengi: A promise/contract is a promise/contract is a promise/contract, but only among Klingons/Ferengi. The smugglers in Search for Spock gave Captain Kruge exactly what he wanted, and he still killed them. The Duras family was practically a synonym for treachery in TNG, and the House of Torg was such in STO. You are ascribing a standard of honor that many, if not most, Klingons in series do not possess. Worf actually comes accross as a proper Klingon because he believes the stories more than most Klingons, even accepting the discommendation of his family and himself to preserve the Empire, when the honorable solution would have been to slay the Chancellor and the heirs of Duras, civil war regardless. That's not honor, that's political expediency for the High Council. Remember too, in the Undiscovered Country, the Klingon terrorists were cooperating with Federation (mostly human and vulcan) terrorists and Romulan agents against Chancellor Gorkon. Clearly even in the cause of preserving "true" Klingon culture in the face of polluting Federation peacemaking, some high-ranking Klingons are willing to resort to dishonorable conduct and even justify it.
    you can maybe look at it as 'the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law' drives their thinking, because so much of their laws and social structure are less formal than you're used to experiencing.

    Everything about codes of honor is letter of the law by definition, even (especially) in oral traditions. Klingon ritual is veritable religion at times, and is clearly very formal. Formal as in you get it wrong and someone declares a duel to the death or stabs you in the chest on the spot. This is straight out of Western notions of Japanese culture, which is, in truth, heavily regulated by manner and custom. Plus what about attacking helpless freighters, in Federation space (not even Klingon space), from under cloak? Hardly sporting.
    To the Klingon mind, the Gorn started the war, and once the war was over, they realized the Gorn didn't start the war, but they couldn't afford an enemy that close, so they did something smart, and made the Gorn dependent on them for a time, while rebuilding them.

    In some ways, Jimmy-pok is a flaming liberal by Klingon standards. he invited the Orions to settle in Klingon territory instead of invading them or repulsing them, he used a much lighter and more reformed hand with the Gorn, and he limited the damage to a single front and a border squabble, instead of pursuing total victory with a lightning offensive against an unprepared Federation (per the path to 2409, sTarfleet was in a drawdown and wasn't ready for war until AFTER the Klingons attacked.)

    To an extent, it doesn't matter what the Klingons "believe," just as beliefs in real life do not automatically justify atrocities in the minds of victims and enemies. I will avoid specific examples... but suffice to say you name a genocide, and you can find all kinds of commentary saying these people are vermin/monsters/infidels/heretics/unclean/scum/criminals/cowards... they should not live. As for limiting his attacks... it is canon, regardless of what you or anyone likes, that the Federation and the Empire are roughly equal in strength, with the usual hometown advantage. Add the Romulans to that mix and you get 1984's Oceania/Eastasia/Eurasia conflict, where any two allies cannot defeat the other. J'mpok couldn't push much further for the same reason the Federation couldn't push further in turn: they are about evenly matched. For the Federation to even try and negotiate with the Klingons after being threatened (and J'mpok started this before the Undine were even a major thing) is a profound act of generosity, given the aggressiveness the Empire was showing at the time. Defeating the Federation would be impossible barring machinations from, say, the Undine or Iconians, who hardly have Klingon interests at heart (except as pest control or target practice). Realistically of course, the Federation never defeated the Klingons, but that it is realistic. Large civilizations tend to implode under internal strife (the Klingons nearly did in The Undiscovered Country when Praxis blew up - it is explicitly noted in the film that the Klingon government felt they would lose if they kept fighting the Federation while recoving from the horrific disaster).

    J'mpok is no liberal, even by Klingon standards. J'mpok's older platform was the reactionary, traditionalist, "we have lost our way" and return to the "ways of our ancestors." In modern human societies, regardless of Western/Eastern, etc., that is hardline conservative, bordering on cultural fundamentalism. His alleged generosity to the Orions is hardly that either... the Orion system is well out of Klingon space, with many other civilizations, including the Federation's members, in the way. No generosity is present if invading someone isn't a realistic option.

    For that matter, if the Klingons were honestly seeking allies against the Undine, why not give that proof to the Gorn before invading them. Even if the Gorn remained hostile, the Klingons could say even to skeptics then, that they had tried to warn the Gorn and give them the honorable chance to destroy the infiltrators. Moreover, do you not think the Gorn would have gladly ripped the Undine apart with their bare claws and teeth if they had known they were infiltrated? The Klingons wouldn't have a subject species with beligerant rebels who would side with the Tal Shiar over anyone else, they'd have an ally AND a score against the Federation. If Klingons would use the brains they have to have (making starships and all) they would have a full army, a full Gorn ally army, the Federation actually conceding their point early on, and the rightful claim to lead a crusade against the Undine. Plus an army that might actually be able to deal with the Iconians, the Tzenkethi, and the H'urq more directly. Posters who feel the Klingons are behaving too stupidly are right. Klingons in the series can be and are smarter than this, though they can also be truly stupid when they choose (see manipulation by Romulans, Dominion, Undine, Romulans again, Iconians...).

    What I do not understand is why you feel the need to defend the Klingons. I get the feeling you don't like Cryptic's disinterest in developing them, which is understandable and valid. Klingons from the show were far more interesting and diverse than the triggerhappy blood knights who dominate STO's character list. Sometimes it is best to acknowledge that the characterization sucks, and hopefully Cryptic will realize this and continue to give us more interesting Klingon characters. We've gotten some already... so one can only hope.
    Post edited by czechmark on
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