I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Klingons have a tendency to go battle-happy and slaughter their enemies instead of capturing them, but even when they do take prisoners they don't treat them well. Rura Penthe is basically a Soviet-style gulag and prisoners of war and political prisoners seem to get mixed into gen pop.
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Klingons have a tendency to go battle-happy and slaughter their enemies instead of capturing them, but even when they do take prisoners they don't treat them well. Rura Penthe is basically a Soviet-style gulag and prisoners of war and political prisoners seem to get mixed into gen pop.
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
Wouldn't signing the Seldonis IV Convention have been part of the Khitomer Accords?
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Klingons have a tendency to go battle-happy and slaughter their enemies instead of capturing them, but even when they do take prisoners they don't treat them well. Rura Penthe is basically a Soviet-style gulag and prisoners of war and political prisoners seem to get mixed into gen pop.
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
Wouldn't signing the Seldonis IV Convention have been part of the Khitomer Accords?
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
Seldonis IV was signed during the Cardassian War between the Federation and Cardassia
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Klingons have a tendency to go battle-happy and slaughter their enemies instead of capturing them, but even when they do take prisoners they don't treat them well. Rura Penthe is basically a Soviet-style gulag and prisoners of war and political prisoners seem to get mixed into gen pop.
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
Wouldn't signing the Seldonis IV Convention have been part of the Khitomer Accords?
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
Seldonis IV was signed during the Cardassian War between the Federation and Cardassia
Right, but that doesn't say it was just between them. It likely would've involved all major powers of the region with an interest, except the Romulans of course.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
Of course since this is motivated by profit the Orions doing this are probably only going to do it with people that didn't have a high value as slaves. That or the Feds would have to pay more for them.
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Klingons have a tendency to go battle-happy and slaughter their enemies instead of capturing them, but even when they do take prisoners they don't treat them well. Rura Penthe is basically a Soviet-style gulag and prisoners of war and political prisoners seem to get mixed into gen pop.
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
Wouldn't signing the Seldonis IV Convention have been part of the Khitomer Accords?
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
Seldonis IV was signed during the Cardassian War between the Federation and Cardassia
Right, but that doesn't say it was just between them. It likely would've involved all major powers of the region with an interest, except the Romulans of course.
What needs to be created is a galactic Geneva Convention where all POWs are to be well cared for.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Of course since this is motivated by profit the Orions doing this are probably only going to do it with people that didn't have a high value as slaves. That or the Feds would have to pay more for them.
Of course, and the Federation which has vast resources and doesn't really value money for money's sake would pay it.
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Klingons have a tendency to go battle-happy and slaughter their enemies instead of capturing them, but even when they do take prisoners they don't treat them well. Rura Penthe is basically a Soviet-style gulag and prisoners of war and political prisoners seem to get mixed into gen pop.
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
Wouldn't signing the Seldonis IV Convention have been part of the Khitomer Accords?
It's like you think that the Federation and Starfleet don't run sting operations or attack Klingon prisons to recover prisoners. It's the Klingons who think anyone who got captured is garbage that you leave in the trash as they have no honor if they can't escape themselves.
As for a Truth and Reconciliation committee, I would imagine that would have to be completed before they even submit their application.
Now that you mention this, I wonder if certain parts of the Orion Syndicate don't make an effort to acquire Fed prisoners just so they can sell them back to Starfleet. I mean the way the Klingons treat a lot of them they have minimal security, so they might be able to just buy them...
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
Seldonis IV was signed during the Cardassian War between the Federation and Cardassia
Right, but that doesn't say it was just between them. It likely would've involved all major powers of the region with an interest, except the Romulans of course.
What needs to be created is a galactic Geneva Convention where all POWs are to be well cared for.
the problem being, the Federation has a habit of breaking their treaties with the Klingons, then acting the part of the wounded when the Klingons turn on them for breaking their word.
Had the Federation upheld their treaty obligations in the first place, J'mpok would not have had casus belli to evict them from the Hromi cluster in the first place.
under such conditions, a 'new treaty' is just worthless paper.
What? So it's the Federation's fault for not going to war with the Gorn? Did the Klingons even share the evidence of Undine infiltration? Just we're going to war, you follow now!
That's why he pulled out of the Khitomer Accords. Now it's never cut and dry. The Klingons were right, the Gorn had been infiltrated. But so had the Klingons. But in the long run, the war was playing right into enemy hands seeing as how that's what the Undine and the Iconians wanted. It would be an excusable mistake if it wasn't exactly the same play that the Founders had run on the Klingons in the Klingon-Cardassian War, that then precipitated the Second Federation-Klingon War, which preceded the Dominion War, weakening all powers. They played themselves.
And he had already pulled out of the Khitomer Accords when he decided that, "now that we're not friends anymore, we want the Hromi cluster." Which since he knew the Federation would never acquiesce to that request was simply a declaration of war.
The simple fact of the matter is, the Klingons pull out of any treaty where the other side doesn't do what they want them to.
"No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts. Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time. Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."
This guy doesn't care about treaties, he's just a smart enough politician to provide himself with pretext before he acts. He was more than happy to take actions he knew the Federation wouldn't back him on so he can blame them for violating agreements.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
> @theraven2378 said: > Michael Eddington has a point here
Ah, yes.....the Maquis. Someone got triggered by my post about how the Feds turn a blind eye to Klingon depredations against Federation shipping and border worlds.....how many Federation citizens did the bureaucrats in Paris abandon to the Cardassians?
> @patrickngo said: > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: » > > > @theraven2378 said: > > Michael Eddington has a point here > > Ah, yes.....the Maquis. Someone got triggered by my post about how the Feds turn a blind eye to Klingon depredations against Federation shipping and border worlds.....how many Federation citizens did the bureaucrats in Paris abandon to the Cardassians? > > > > > enough to create an insurgency that got the attention of the top levels of the Federation,and drew down the full might and wrath of the Dominion?
I expect that Starfleet and Paris were grateful to the Dominion for solving that problem for them......not that they would admit it publicly, of course.
The federation absolutely broke their treaty obligations, and it's not really the first time they've done that. (every time during the not-allied days Federation starships treated the Neutral, or Demilitarized, zones as a shortcut in violation of THOSE treaties counts. The violations (multiple) of the treaty of Algeron...)
In the Path to 2409, the Federation president declared that the Treaty of Algeron was null and void due to the collapse of the Romulan government that signed it. Or did you mean before then?
J'mpok made a HUGE blunder with the Gorn situation. He asked the Federation to discard their treaty with the Gorn based on very little evidence. You talk about "honoring treaties"... Well the Fed treaty with the Gorn predates their treaty with the Empire. If not for the Fed-KDF treaty, J'mpok might have been staring at an invasion of Klingon space by Fed fleets aiming to cut-off Klingon supply lines going to their war effort with the Gorn.
> @theraven2378 said:
> Michael Eddington has a point here
Ah, yes.....the Maquis. Someone got triggered by my post about how the Feds turn a blind eye to Klingon depredations against Federation shipping and border worlds.....how many Federation citizens did the bureaucrats in Paris abandon to the Cardassians?
0. In fact they sent the FLAGSHIP of the Federation fleet to assist with relocating some of those Federation citizens who were left homeless as part of the treaty.
Its obvious the Federation was also infiltrated by the Undine or Bluejill. Influencing policy makers and maybe were involved with those denying proof of Undine hostility. I think once the mainstream federation really knew that this threat and the Klingons were right about everything after the Undine Vulcan incident. Section thirty one and others in the Federation took it seriously and the Undine infiltrators were taken out or captured. By then it was too late the war was already ongoing between the Federation and Klingons. This was all the scheme by the Iconians at the time. So It really was not federations fault or the Kingons fault because each side was played against each other like a fiddle. They even tricked the Undine influencing the events that followed with the Klingons and federation going to war. This is what the Iconians wanted. When the alliance was formed the Iconians were not happy. They go and kill most of the high council maybe to disable the Klingon empire. They took a major offensive against Kronos and New Romulus. Because the Iconians feared all the factions working together again.
Iconian war last mission spoilers below
Maybe its because of the actions of the Sela and the Klingon that tried to save the Iconians and because the world heart being taken because of these acts and the act of Sela took. Caused the Iconians to become what they are in the future. Thus they destroy Romulus because of Selas act and send major offensive after Kdf and Romulan Republic more then they did the federation because of the events that happened in the past. The only reason all three factions are still around is because they worked together. Without that they would have all fallen to the heralds upon the Iconians return. So basically what happened to end the Iconian war was a Major Predestination Paradox. Both events had to happen in order for reality to become what it is today.
Except the Federation had a treaty with the GORN, not the UNDINE, but their actions were to preserve the Undine infiltration of the GORN HEGEMONY, and their actions POST- gorn war underscore this. The KDF trotted out real, live, infiltrators and then executed them,
That doesn't prove anything other than the KDF captured Undine. The bottom line is that J'mpok didn't really try to provide evidence. Just look at the "diplomatic" emissaries he sent to Vulcan. Instead of showing the fed player evidence of their claims they open fire for "insulting" them. That says a lot about how much J'mpok actually tried to convince the Feds that his word was true.
and the Federation...retrenched in their denials in the face of that evidence, effectively siding with the people who'd subverted their GORN allies, which is why KING Slaathis sits in a non-voting but self-governing seat in the Klingon High Council instead of in an observer's seat in Paris. The KDF effectively gave the GORN people their country back-as a protectorate, but it's a hell of a lot more autonomous than it would be under Federation stewardship (*you can ask the Cardassians about that. Thirty years on and they're still under occupation.
The Gorn aren't free. The Klingon Council tells Slathis how to rule Gornar. The Orion Syndicate has more influence in the affairs of the Empire than Slathis.
Utopia Planitia raid demonstrates that Klingon cloaking tech is sufficient to get a strike force right into the Sol system itself, if they were the butchers Fed-Fans claim (and Discovery wold make them be) Earth would have gotten "Breen part two-this time with Cloaking and tricobalt warheads!!" instead they got a limited 'because we can' strike on ONE shipyard, done almost as an afterthought.
How long has it been since you played that? When I did it... (several times, because it's fun) I had to hijack a Fed ship and steal it's transponder code to get to Utopia Planitia, and that precluded a full scale attack. Also the Klingon admiralty mentioned that if I didn't leave quickly after the raid was finished I'd get overwhelmed by the counter-attack. Also when it's over the admiralty estimates it'll be a matter of DAYS until the damage is fixed.
Its obvious the Federation was also infiltrated by the Undine or Bluejill. Influencing policy makers and maybe were involved with those denying proof of Undine hostility. I think once the mainstream federation really knew that this threat and the Klingons were right about everything after the Undine Vulcan incident. Section thirty one and others in the Federation took it seriously and the Undine infiltrators were taken out or captured.
The path to 2409 suggests that Federation intelligence already knew, and were quietly trying to find them. One of the entries talks about how a Federation ship had the crew scanned for Undine. It's just that Intelligence hadn't yet figured out what the undine were doing and seemed to be more concerned with learning the Undine's plans than removing them.
Official Federation statements and Federation officials declined to believe it even when the Klingons were executing Undine infils publicly and broadcasting it. Powerful figures within the Federation Council even tried to claim the infiltrators were 'benign'-that is, they outright and officially denied the threat in the face of public evidence to the contrary, and sustained their condemnation of the Empire's actions.
That is, the Federation did not bother to investigate themselves, even against the recommendation of their own tactical experts and experts with prior contact with species 8472.
and they levied sanctions, which they did not lift, and they denied the evidence supplied was even evidence prior to, during, and after, in order to weasel out of the mutual defense treaties post Dominion War, treaties that were, in turn, the basis of Federation leases in the Hromi sector. (an area leased, per "Road to 2409" to the Federation from Klingon holdings as part of a treaty of alliance and mutual defense.)
The federation absolutely broke their treaty obligations, and it's not really the first time they've done that. (every time during the not-allied days Federation starships treated the Neutral, or Demilitarized, zones as a shortcut in violation of THOSE treaties counts. The violations (multiple) of the treaty of Algeron...)
When a Klingon calls you 'dishonorable' he generally specifically means your word's no good, that your promises are lies, and that you can't be counted on in a pinch.
all of which, the Federation demonstrated in spades in the run-up to, conduct of, and aftermath of, the Gorn war, as well as the events leading to the Klingon decision to evict Federation colonists from the Hromi sector.
The fascinating thing is that the Federation already had evidence of their own of Undine infiltrators, don't forget the USS Cochrane.
But does that make a war against the Gorn to excise their Undine infiltration lawful? Or strategically valid?
And is the Treaty of Algeron even still in effect? The Romulan Star Empire is defunct, and the Romulan Republic hasn't said anything about it, let alone inherited it the force of that treaty.
The sad thing is that the Federation has repeatedly shown that the Klingons could rely on them in a pinch. That's what actually made the alliance a real thing in the first place.
And what force does it have for the Klingoons to evict anyone from Federation territory?
> @theraven2378 said:
> Michael Eddington has a point here
Ah, yes.....the Maquis. Someone got triggered by my post about how the Feds turn a blind eye to Klingon depredations against Federation shipping and border worlds.....how many Federation citizens did the bureaucrats in Paris abandon to the Cardassians?
No one has ever been able to explain to me why settling on the Cardassian border in war time was in any way a good idea or allowed.
very likely. There's a dirty secret in Star Trek. "Race=Politics". It's actually highlighted by outliers like Worf, but there's a definite 'expectation' in-universe that your species will determine your allegiances-unless the alternative is the Federation, of course, in that situation your'e a 'trailblazing individual', but what the Maquis did? Oh, now, that's just plain unacceptable, they seceded from the "Human" government and pursued their own domestic and foreign policy without first kissing the ring of the Federation Council.
The entire problem with the Maquis was that what they were doing was going to trigger a second Federation-Cardassian War. Like you said. Race=Politics for a lot of species. The Cardassians were supplying their colonists with weapons and ships, there's no way they thought that the Federation wasn't doing the same for their colonists, so anything that the Maquis did was going to blow back on the Federation.
Utopia Planitia raid demonstrates that Klingon cloaking tech is sufficient to get a strike force right into the Sol system itself, if they were the butchers Fed-Fans claim (and Discovery wold make them be) Earth would have gotten "Breen part two-this time with Cloaking and tricobalt warheads!!" instead they got a limited 'because we can' strike on ONE shipyard, done almost as an afterthought.
which kinda suggests that some in important circles in the Empire suspected the reason for the Federation's lethal vacillation was that they were infiltrated by the TRUE enemy, but only to the point of being paralyzed in a manner best cured with a hard slap to the face.
that the slap took ten years to execute? well, vulcans are stubborn...
Actually the Raid Utopia Planitia proved that they needed intel to do it even with cloaking technology, they needed to torture access codes out of a Starfleet Captain in order to breach the Gravimetric nets.
The Breen who raided San Fransisco got off their few shots and then got completely annihilated, none of them got out.
The Klingons had no such altruistic motives. J'mpok is one of those classic Klingons who simply view the Federation as their largest target for conquest, they had no expectation that the Federation would ever come around.
But like I said, the Federation already had their own evidence of Undine infiltration. The thing that's never been answered is what were they doing about it? Counterintelligence? Recon? They had an Undine infiltrator in the same prison they kept the Female Founder in. What else did they have?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
No one has ever been able to explain to me why settling on the Cardassian border in war time was in any way a good idea or allowed.
That's a recurring thing in episodes involving minor Federation colonies. "Enterprising" colonists would build them anywhere that was (at the time) legally Federation territory, seemingly without the backing of the government. My best guess is that it's an aspect of the Federation's "free will" approach towards government.
But like I said, the Federation already had their own evidence of Undine infiltration. The thing that's never been answered is what were they doing about it? Counterintelligence? Recon? They had an Undine infiltrator in the same prison they kept the Female Founder in. What else did they have?
Yeah the Empire wishes they knew as much about Undine infiltration techniques as the Feds do. The only reason the Empire had ANY idea what was going on is that some of the infiltrators failed to dispose of their victims.
Further, when your 'ally' shows you evidence of that kind of infiltration, you don't downplay the significance even after you're proven wrong.
That's when J'mpok FAILED to do and apparently didn't really try to do. See, he never showed them proof that a war against the Gorn was justified. THAT is what the Federation refused to accept. A few recordings of an Undine? Ok you found an Undine... so? Not adequate for starting a war against their ally.
the Federation itself[/i], an entity and organization that had centuries of experience with Klingon political psychology, what justifies which sorts of conflicts, and how conflicts are resolved with Klingons.
The "Vulcan hello" comes to mind. Which was rather appropriately used in orbit of Vulcan when some Klingon was dumb enough to go there.
The exact reasons as to why J'mpok and the Klingon Empire went to war with the Federation almost don't matter.
It was exactly what the Undine and Iconians wanted. J'mpok played into their hands by starting a pointless war that wasted thousands of lives on both sides that almost cost them everything later when the Iconians revealed their hand. What gets me is that J'mpok must have had at least SOME awareness a war is exactly what the Undine wanted. Infiltrators from the same faction found in both the Federation and the Empire? As well as some found in the trigger-event Gorn? Surely that implies the Undine are a threat to both Federation and Empire and that the logical thing to do is team up against them? Or if J'mpok is too frightened of SF Command or the Federation Council's infiltration, find aspects of the Federation willing to work with the Klingons. Individual ship Captains or Admirals who express anti-Undine sentiments. Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31. Literally anything that gives the Undine what they want.
Especially when its the exact same trick the Changelings used with the Cardassians during the Dominion War. In that instance the Klingons were wrong. Not an inspiring track-record. J'mpok could have at least shown hard proof-if he had any.
How much access did the Federation have to visit? What did the 'perpetrator' actually say? Did it actually say anything directly to a SF Officer or did the Klingons simply make recordings? (Which can be faked.) Did the Klingons actually have an Undine in custody that outright admitted to the infiltration of the Gorn government or had otherwise been publically exposed as a Gorn government infiltrator?
In Facility 4028 Starfleet has an Undine captive. That's proof too. Starfleet actively engages against Undine several times during the early missions. It proves the Federation aren't cooperating with the Undine so why continue the war?
And I'd like to note the P'Jem mission in particular. Sure the Klingons were right about Sokketh but instead of providing proof they just got insulted about honour and tried to destroy us. Asking for proof from a Captain of Starfleet's current enemy isn't unreasonable. In fact its a lot more reasonable than s/he should have been.
The exact reasons as to why J'mpok and the Klingon Empire went to war with the Federation almost don't matter.
It was exactly what the Undine and Iconians wanted. J'mpok played into their hands by starting a pointless war that wasted thousands of lives on both sides that almost cost them everything later when the Iconians revealed their hand. What gets me is that J'mpok must have had at least SOME awareness a war is exactly what the Undine wanted. Infiltrators from the same faction found in both the Federation and the Empire? As well as some found in the trigger-event Gorn? Surely that implies the Undine are a threat to both Federation and Empire and that the logical thing to do is team up against them? Or if J'mpok is too frightened of SF Command or the Federation Council's infiltration, find aspects of the Federation willing to work with the Klingons. Individual ship Captains or Admirals who express anti-Undine sentiments. Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31. Literally anything that gives the Undine what they want.
Especially when its the exact same trick the Changelings used with the Cardassians during the Dominion War. In that instance the Klingons were wrong. Not an inspiring track-record. J'mpok could have at least shown hard proof-if he had any.
apparently having perpetrator in custody isn't 'hard proof'.
The part you're missing is "perpetrator of what"?
He had evidence to suspect the Undine may have been working on infiltrating the Hegemony, he did NOT have proof that a war was warranted.
But yeah this is why Romulans think Klingons are STUPID. Tricking them into fighting their allies is seemingly child's play. Heck the Changeling pretending to be Martok almost tricked Worf into assassinating Gowron. Why not kill him himself? Because if it's Worf then the Empire has a reason to fight the Federation.
I wonder why B'Vat was hell-bent on sparking a eternal Fed-KDF war when he knew the Iconians were right around the corner. I doubt Krog or whoever left out that detail, given a Iconian victory meant their doom as well
I wonder why B'Vat was hell-bent on sparking a eternal Fed-KDF war when he knew the Iconians were right around the corner. I doubt Krog or whoever left out that detail, given a Iconian victory meant their doom as well
It's not clear if he had some convoluted plan or if he was just insane. But past B'Vat says he thinks his future self is a madman. Was he crazy like a fox, or the regular crazy? I don't know.
And I'd like to note the P'Jem mission in particular. Sure the Klingons were right about Sokketh but instead of providing proof they just got insulted about honour and tried to destroy us. Asking for proof from a Captain of Starfleet's current enemy isn't unreasonable. In fact its a lot more reasonable than s/he should have been.
That's my favorite one, right there. Klingon gets intel that a Federation ambassador and former Councillor might be an Undine, right? So he flies all the way to the Federation core worlds during a declared war against the Federation to... decloak in front of the ambassador's Starfleet escort and demand that they hand him over to an enemy combatant?
In what universe does that seem sensible even by Klingon standards?
He's just lucky it wasn't forty years earlier and he wasn't trying that with the Cardassians: remember what that one guy did to Picard when he was similarly stupid in the backstory of "The Wounded"? Instead of taking a cheap shot, the commander of the escorting ship actually bothers to entertain this request and ask for evidence.
The Klingon takes umbrage at this ridiculous demand and says "talk to my disruptors". Of course, he's flying an uncloaked bird-of-prey against a light cruiser and gets blown out of space in thirty seconds.
And consider the fact that J'mpok wanted a war with the Federation several years before anyone knew the Undine had disregarded the agreement from "In the Flesh". Way back in 2387 or '88, he tried to start a fight for no other reason than that Worf had been in command of a Klingon task force that was trashed by Nero, despite the fact that Worf had actually personally boarded the Narada and nearly spared us having to watch that mediocre movie. Martok laughed Jimmy Pok out of the High Council chambers, which was the beginning of their feud.
The Undine were never anything more to Jimmy Pok than an excuse to withdraw from the Khitomer Accords so he could declare war on the Federation to occupy a disputed region without having to fend off accusations of oathbreaking (i.e. maintaining quv).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
What was there to talk about? They have no legitimate reason to be skulking around the Federation's Core Worlds when there is a war on.....I would not have even bothered to answer their hails and immediately engaged them before they could threaten the lives of the Federation Citizens in the P'Jem system as was my Duty. Even if I bothered to listen to them, nothing would have changed. The idea of handing over any Federation citizen to them was completely absurd....believing their own propaganda and assuming that Starfleet Captains were sniveling cowards who would comply with such a demand to save their own skins would quickly prove a fatal mistake on their part.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
What was there to talk about? They have no legitimate reason to be skulking around the Federation's Core Worlds when there is a war on.....I would not have even bothered to answer their hails and immediately engaged them before they could threaten the lives of the Federation Citizens in the P'Jem system as was my Duty. Even if I bothered to listen to them, nothing would have changed. The idea of handing over any Federation citizen to them was completely absurd....believing their own propaganda and assuming that Starfleet Captains were sniveling cowards who would comply with such a demand to save their own skins would quickly prove a fatal mistake on their part.
That's kind of my point. The Klingon was incredibly stupid to think a Starfleet Captain would hand over a Federation citizen based solely on his word, and that by even asking for evidence was very reasonable on the Starfleet Captain's part.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
Yeah, as I recall, Jimmy Pok invaded first (after spending the better part of ten years agitating for war with the Gorn and then taking the Orion Syndicate onboard as allies) and only then made a token effort to get his "ally" that had spent the better part of the same ten years trying to prevent a war onboard.* Like I said, the Undine were just a convenient excuse.
After the war, sure, the Federation ended up with egg on its face, but there's this funny thing about breaking an alliance: it means your former ally is no longer obligated to put up with your cr*p.
* This of course coming twenty years or so after the most devastating war in modern history from which even the Klingon Empire was still recovering.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If the person in question hadn't turned out to have been a Undine Infiltrator, anything other than a flat refusal skirted "Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer". But yeah, you're 100% right
If the person in question hadn't turned out to have been a Undine Infiltrator, anything other than a flat refusal skirted "Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer". But yeah, you're 100% right
If it had been the real Sokketh? Handling him over would have been dereliction of duty.
Discussing it with that Klingon captain? that's a matter of gathering intelligence. He obviously went to a lot of risk to meet you. If you can find out why simply by asking nicely? the information might be useful later.
If the person in question hadn't turned out to have been a Undine Infiltrator, anything other than a flat refusal skirted "Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer". But yeah, you're 100% right
If it had been the real Sokketh? Handling him over would have been dereliction of duty.
Discussing it with that Klingon captain? that's a matter of gathering intelligence. He obviously went to a lot of risk to meet you. If you can find out why simply by asking nicely? the information might be useful later.
Actually giving up Soketh would be "Misbehavior Before the Enemy", I'd say violations of Sections (2), (5), (8) and (9) of Article 99 if using the UCMJ as a guide. In a better age such a captain would be cashiered and shot for it.
I'm glad I'm not the only one struck by the sheer stupidity of the Klingon Captain of the P'Jem mission.
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
Yeah, as I recall, Jimmy Pok invaded first (after spending the better part of ten years agitating for war with the Gorn and then taking the Orion Syndicate onboard as allies) and only then made a token effort to get his "ally" that had spent the better part of the same ten years trying to prevent a war onboard.* Like I said, the Undine were just a convenient excuse.
After the war, sure, the Federation ended up with egg on its face, but there's this funny thing about breaking an alliance: it means your former ally is no longer obligated to put up with your cr*p.
* This of course coming twenty years or so after the most devastating war in modern history from which even the Klingon Empire was still recovering.
what you're missing, is that from the Klingon point of view, the Federation broke faith first...and not for the first time. The Gorn (Federation allies) were raiding into Klingon space, which was his whole cassus belli before the undine were revealed, and the Federation's 'efforts' were lackluster at best-think about it, the 'raid' on the talks was clearly a false-flag, the Klingons knew they didn't do it, but the Gorn and Federation were united in claiming that they did.
consider the possibility now, that the people in charge already felt they had reason to distrust the Federation already, given that the Federation's made a habit of ignoring their territory going back to before it was founded (see: Enterprise, then TOS, several times in the movies...)
The fact that the Federation prolonged the cardassian mess (an active Federation support of it would likely have resolved things much faster, uncovered the truth sooner, and resulted in fewer casualties on all sides since the presence of that ally would have likely moderated conduct by klingon troops and Cardies would have surrendered faster, allowing a more complete inquiry that may have cleared the Detapa Council. By refusing to join their ally, the Feds put themselves under suspicion as also being compromised while simultaneously eliminating their ability to influence the war in a less destructive path.)
when Ja'Rod survived the assassination/replacement attempt, and Jimmy sent h im to 'fact find', he came back with sufficient evidence that the gorn war didn't turn into a sacking, thus the Gorn hegemony is an autonomous client state, (india in the 1940s) instead of a subjugated victim (South Vietnam after 1975, or the Ukraine in 1936, or anyone colonized by the French or Belgians in Africa)
to many Klingons, it was "there goes the Federation again, stabbing us in the back". it's how J'mpok got the influence he did.
yet, the actual war against the Federation followed some really rather strict limitations. The Empire didn't broaden the front, or turn it into a war of attrition, they made exactly ONE strike into Sol system, and it was against a limited target, the move at P'jem may have been made by an officer with more discipline than sense, but it was after a surgical target, and they didn't resort to orbital bombardment when they really could have (and saved a lot of time and effort doing so, I might add.)
Their actual prosecution of hte war doesn't fit with your paradigm, Starsword. Klingons are quite capable of unleashed atrocity, and they tend to do so when the target is seen as unworthy of respect. There was likely less bloodshed on P'jem, than in a typical klingon riot on Qo'noS or a labor dispute over Ty'Gokor.
by their standards, they handled the whole situation with 'kid gloves', rather than exerting the full might and fury of the Empire's collective force.
something to consider about Klingon psychology; They're more likely to respect a rioter throwing rocks, than a fully armored man in a tank who surrenders without firing a shot.
that has implications. to them, the Federation was surrendering without a shot far too often to trust in the federation's honor.
Honestly, you give the Empire too much credit. It is not a great medium or long-term survival strategy to randomly attack anyone who disagrees with you, since all that does is give them an excellent reason to attack you in turn and disagree with you in any event. J'mpok's initial characterization was definitly the kind of reactionary "return to the old ways" style of figure whose nostalgic obsession with a nonexistant past overrides more reasoned behavior. As previous posters noted, Klingon aggressiveness against the Cardassians drove them straight into the Dominion, and it turned out that the Changelings had infiltrated the Klingons to high levels. Cryptic even acknowledged this in "Stop the Signal" when one Klingon officer turned out to be Undine. The fact that Cryptic spun around so fast on making the KDF completely right instead of ambiguously right was depressing, because in real life your belief in your motives matters almost nothing in international politics; rather, it is how well you can persuade and demonstrate to others that they are valid. I would also point out that any attack on a homeworld would incite a proportionate response, and it wasn't the Klingons who came up with the Genesis Device, made functional Augments (pre-warp humans), or split off to make their own high-tech insidious empire (Romulans)... I rather suspect there wouldn't be a Qo'nos, if even an Empire, after a gloves-off Federation was finished with them. To paraphrase from another series, an unambiguously good civilizaion wouldn't need so many rules and regulations; it is not the time to learn why the Federation/Starfleet has so many.
As for Klingon "Honor," Star Trek has neatly encapsulated why so many RL honor systems, especially martial ones, cause so much strife and pain. The Klingon sense of honor is entirely focused inwards, with outsiders at best considered near-honorable, even when they prove themselves loyal allies (See Worf, who will likely never considered be culturally Klingon to anyone outside of House Martok, even though his knowledge probably rivals any loremaster). What else justifies military-grade warships targeting unaffiliated civilian vessels from under cloak, or battle fleets expelling civilian populations as honorable? Consider Khitomer, a sneak attack on a nonmilitary colony; the Klingons still held a grudge against the entire Romulan people for decades after the fact. Yet they have no problem attacking civilian targets of others, and respond to criticism with essentially, "You made me hit you." Who in their right mind would trust someone like that? Especially given how easily Romulans in TNG, Changelings in DS9, and Undine and Iconians in STO have all manipulated the Klingons into doing their bidding. In fact, however annoying this trend is from a storytelling perspective, the Klingon vulnerability to manipulation is canonically well-established. It is even reasonable that the Federation might assume the Klingons had themselves been infiltrated YET AGAIN and that trusting their allegations was suicidal.
As a first aside, I would be wary of using certain RL examples. While it may be true that British rule in India was better than British rule in Africa as a general rule... that's still a horribly low bar and does not lend itself to a reasoned debate. As an example, the reasons for the American Revolution come across as almost petty compared to the reasons for other rebellions, revolts, and revolutions... more taxes and restriction of free speech compared to actual/equivalent slavery, induced famines, massacres, legally mandated second/third-class status. But do you see any American patriot agreeing with those sentiments? It's going to be worse where massacres and oppression were commonplace.
As a total aside: I kinda wish Cyrptic would bring more in of the Gorn separatists, because the ambiguity of being a Gorn "collaborator" in the KDF vs. a potential "terrorist" in the resistance is straight out of Deep Space Nine's Bajoran storylines. Or even the Orion Syndicate: how do a bunch of slavers and smugglers bypass Klingon rules? But the Gorn aren't attractive humans with earrings and crinkly noses, so I guess they don't get fun storylines... And the Orions are probably not PG enough...
Comments
I'm surprised the Federation have not brought this up, first thing they should have stipulated was that all Federation POWs taken during the war are to be immediately repatriated alive and those who died in captivity so they can reunited with their loved ones.
Furthermore, that the Klingon Empire signs the Seldonis IV Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
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Wouldn't signing the Seldonis IV Convention have been part of the Khitomer Accords?
Now you see that would make Orions the smartest players in the game. Make a side deal with the Federation under the radar to acquire any POWs and return them to the Federation for a moderate fee. The Federation ensures that any prisoners the Orions would send into the aether instead come home while they can get the rest back through traditional end of war repatriation from the Klingons, while the Orions make a tidy profit.
Seldonis IV was signed during the Cardassian War between the Federation and Cardassia
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Right, but that doesn't say it was just between them. It likely would've involved all major powers of the region with an interest, except the Romulans of course.
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What needs to be created is a galactic Geneva Convention where all POWs are to be well cared for.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Of course, and the Federation which has vast resources and doesn't really value money for money's sake would pay it.
I thought that's what the Seldonis IV Convention was.
What? So it's the Federation's fault for not going to war with the Gorn? Did the Klingons even share the evidence of Undine infiltration? Just we're going to war, you follow now!
That's why he pulled out of the Khitomer Accords. Now it's never cut and dry. The Klingons were right, the Gorn had been infiltrated. But so had the Klingons. But in the long run, the war was playing right into enemy hands seeing as how that's what the Undine and the Iconians wanted. It would be an excusable mistake if it wasn't exactly the same play that the Founders had run on the Klingons in the Klingon-Cardassian War, that then precipitated the Second Federation-Klingon War, which preceded the Dominion War, weakening all powers. They played themselves.
And he had already pulled out of the Khitomer Accords when he decided that, "now that we're not friends anymore, we want the Hromi cluster." Which since he knew the Federation would never acquiesce to that request was simply a declaration of war.
The simple fact of the matter is, the Klingons pull out of any treaty where the other side doesn't do what they want them to.
"No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts. Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time. Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."
This guy doesn't care about treaties, he's just a smart enough politician to provide himself with pretext before he acts. He was more than happy to take actions he knew the Federation wouldn't back him on so he can blame them for violating agreements.
Michael Eddington has a point here
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
> Michael Eddington has a point here
Ah, yes.....the Maquis. Someone got triggered by my post about how the Feds turn a blind eye to Klingon depredations against Federation shipping and border worlds.....how many Federation citizens did the bureaucrats in Paris abandon to the Cardassians?
> jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
>
> > @theraven2378 said:
> > Michael Eddington has a point here
>
> Ah, yes.....the Maquis. Someone got triggered by my post about how the Feds turn a blind eye to Klingon depredations against Federation shipping and border worlds.....how many Federation citizens did the bureaucrats in Paris abandon to the Cardassians?
>
>
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> enough to create an insurgency that got the attention of the top levels of the Federation,and drew down the full might and wrath of the Dominion?
I expect that Starfleet and Paris were grateful to the Dominion for solving that problem for them......not that they would admit it publicly, of course.
J'mpok made a HUGE blunder with the Gorn situation. He asked the Federation to discard their treaty with the Gorn based on very little evidence. You talk about "honoring treaties"... Well the Fed treaty with the Gorn predates their treaty with the Empire. If not for the Fed-KDF treaty, J'mpok might have been staring at an invasion of Klingon space by Fed fleets aiming to cut-off Klingon supply lines going to their war effort with the Gorn. 0. In fact they sent the FLAGSHIP of the Federation fleet to assist with relocating some of those Federation citizens who were left homeless as part of the treaty.
My character Tsin'xing
Iconian war last mission spoilers below
My character Tsin'xing
The fascinating thing is that the Federation already had evidence of their own of Undine infiltrators, don't forget the USS Cochrane.
But does that make a war against the Gorn to excise their Undine infiltration lawful? Or strategically valid?
And is the Treaty of Algeron even still in effect? The Romulan Star Empire is defunct, and the Romulan Republic hasn't said anything about it, let alone inherited it the force of that treaty.
The sad thing is that the Federation has repeatedly shown that the Klingons could rely on them in a pinch. That's what actually made the alliance a real thing in the first place.
And what force does it have for the Klingoons to evict anyone from Federation territory?
No one has ever been able to explain to me why settling on the Cardassian border in war time was in any way a good idea or allowed.
The entire problem with the Maquis was that what they were doing was going to trigger a second Federation-Cardassian War. Like you said. Race=Politics for a lot of species. The Cardassians were supplying their colonists with weapons and ships, there's no way they thought that the Federation wasn't doing the same for their colonists, so anything that the Maquis did was going to blow back on the Federation.
Actually the Raid Utopia Planitia proved that they needed intel to do it even with cloaking technology, they needed to torture access codes out of a Starfleet Captain in order to breach the Gravimetric nets.
The Breen who raided San Fransisco got off their few shots and then got completely annihilated, none of them got out.
The Klingons had no such altruistic motives. J'mpok is one of those classic Klingons who simply view the Federation as their largest target for conquest, they had no expectation that the Federation would ever come around.
But like I said, the Federation already had their own evidence of Undine infiltration. The thing that's never been answered is what were they doing about it? Counterintelligence? Recon? They had an Undine infiltrator in the same prison they kept the Female Founder in. What else did they have?
Yeah the Empire wishes they knew as much about Undine infiltration techniques as the Feds do. The only reason the Empire had ANY idea what was going on is that some of the infiltrators failed to dispose of their victims. That's when J'mpok FAILED to do and apparently didn't really try to do. See, he never showed them proof that a war against the Gorn was justified. THAT is what the Federation refused to accept. A few recordings of an Undine? Ok you found an Undine... so? Not adequate for starting a war against their ally. The "Vulcan hello" comes to mind. Which was rather appropriately used in orbit of Vulcan when some Klingon was dumb enough to go there.
My character Tsin'xing
It was exactly what the Undine and Iconians wanted. J'mpok played into their hands by starting a pointless war that wasted thousands of lives on both sides that almost cost them everything later when the Iconians revealed their hand. What gets me is that J'mpok must have had at least SOME awareness a war is exactly what the Undine wanted. Infiltrators from the same faction found in both the Federation and the Empire? As well as some found in the trigger-event Gorn? Surely that implies the Undine are a threat to both Federation and Empire and that the logical thing to do is team up against them? Or if J'mpok is too frightened of SF Command or the Federation Council's infiltration, find aspects of the Federation willing to work with the Klingons. Individual ship Captains or Admirals who express anti-Undine sentiments. Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31. Literally anything that gives the Undine what they want.
Especially when its the exact same trick the Changelings used with the Cardassians during the Dominion War. In that instance the Klingons were wrong. Not an inspiring track-record. J'mpok could have at least shown hard proof-if he had any.
How much access did the Federation have to visit? What did the 'perpetrator' actually say? Did it actually say anything directly to a SF Officer or did the Klingons simply make recordings? (Which can be faked.) Did the Klingons actually have an Undine in custody that outright admitted to the infiltration of the Gorn government or had otherwise been publically exposed as a Gorn government infiltrator?
In Facility 4028 Starfleet has an Undine captive. That's proof too. Starfleet actively engages against Undine several times during the early missions. It proves the Federation aren't cooperating with the Undine so why continue the war?
And I'd like to note the P'Jem mission in particular. Sure the Klingons were right about Sokketh but instead of providing proof they just got insulted about honour and tried to destroy us. Asking for proof from a Captain of Starfleet's current enemy isn't unreasonable. In fact its a lot more reasonable than s/he should have been.
He had evidence to suspect the Undine may have been working on infiltrating the Hegemony, he did NOT have proof that a war was warranted.
But yeah this is why Romulans think Klingons are STUPID. Tricking them into fighting their allies is seemingly child's play. Heck the Changeling pretending to be Martok almost tricked Worf into assassinating Gowron. Why not kill him himself? Because if it's Worf then the Empire has a reason to fight the Federation.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
That's my favorite one, right there. Klingon gets intel that a Federation ambassador and former Councillor might be an Undine, right? So he flies all the way to the Federation core worlds during a declared war against the Federation to... decloak in front of the ambassador's Starfleet escort and demand that they hand him over to an enemy combatant?
In what universe does that seem sensible even by Klingon standards?
He's just lucky it wasn't forty years earlier and he wasn't trying that with the Cardassians: remember what that one guy did to Picard when he was similarly stupid in the backstory of "The Wounded"? Instead of taking a cheap shot, the commander of the escorting ship actually bothers to entertain this request and ask for evidence.
The Klingon takes umbrage at this ridiculous demand and says "talk to my disruptors". Of course, he's flying an uncloaked bird-of-prey against a light cruiser and gets blown out of space in thirty seconds.
(Skip to 2:04 if it doesn't go there by itself.)
And consider the fact that J'mpok wanted a war with the Federation several years before anyone knew the Undine had disregarded the agreement from "In the Flesh". Way back in 2387 or '88, he tried to start a fight for no other reason than that Worf had been in command of a Klingon task force that was trashed by Nero, despite the fact that Worf had actually personally boarded the Narada and nearly spared us having to watch that mediocre movie. Martok laughed Jimmy Pok out of the High Council chambers, which was the beginning of their feud.
The Undine were never anything more to Jimmy Pok than an excuse to withdraw from the Khitomer Accords so he could declare war on the Federation to occupy a disputed region without having to fend off accusations of oathbreaking (i.e. maintaining quv).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Seriously, given that the Klingon is an enemy combatant from a faction the Starfleet Escort to the 'ambassador,' the sheer fact that the Starfleet Captain was even prepared to entertain the notion from a sworn enemy is very reasonable. Most people would have just laughed in the Klingon's face then informed him he was trespassing in Federation space and blown him out of the sky.
No faction in the galaxy would just hand over a civilian to captain of another faction they're at war with just because they demanded it. Its insane to think otherwise. On top of that, its highly unlikely that the Starfleet Captain is Klingon. Certainly not a member of the Empire. Surely the Klingon captain is aware that the Federation doesn't follow Klingon honour customs?
If J'mpok presented similar 'logic' to the Federation in his claim that the Gorn government was infiltrated by Undine then he's got nobody to blame but himself when the Federation refused to back him.
What was there to talk about? They have no legitimate reason to be skulking around the Federation's Core Worlds when there is a war on.....I would not have even bothered to answer their hails and immediately engaged them before they could threaten the lives of the Federation Citizens in the P'Jem system as was my Duty. Even if I bothered to listen to them, nothing would have changed. The idea of handing over any Federation citizen to them was completely absurd....believing their own propaganda and assuming that Starfleet Captains were sniveling cowards who would comply with such a demand to save their own skins would quickly prove a fatal mistake on their part.
That's kind of my point. The Klingon was incredibly stupid to think a Starfleet Captain would hand over a Federation citizen based solely on his word, and that by even asking for evidence was very reasonable on the Starfleet Captain's part.
Yeah, as I recall, Jimmy Pok invaded first (after spending the better part of ten years agitating for war with the Gorn and then taking the Orion Syndicate onboard as allies) and only then made a token effort to get his "ally" that had spent the better part of the same ten years trying to prevent a war onboard.* Like I said, the Undine were just a convenient excuse.
After the war, sure, the Federation ended up with egg on its face, but there's this funny thing about breaking an alliance: it means your former ally is no longer obligated to put up with your cr*p.
* This of course coming twenty years or so after the most devastating war in modern history from which even the Klingon Empire was still recovering.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Discussing it with that Klingon captain? that's a matter of gathering intelligence. He obviously went to a lot of risk to meet you. If you can find out why simply by asking nicely? the information might be useful later.
My character Tsin'xing
Actually giving up Soketh would be "Misbehavior Before the Enemy", I'd say violations of Sections (2), (5), (8) and (9) of Article 99 if using the UCMJ as a guide. In a better age such a captain would be cashiered and shot for it.
Honestly, you give the Empire too much credit. It is not a great medium or long-term survival strategy to randomly attack anyone who disagrees with you, since all that does is give them an excellent reason to attack you in turn and disagree with you in any event. J'mpok's initial characterization was definitly the kind of reactionary "return to the old ways" style of figure whose nostalgic obsession with a nonexistant past overrides more reasoned behavior. As previous posters noted, Klingon aggressiveness against the Cardassians drove them straight into the Dominion, and it turned out that the Changelings had infiltrated the Klingons to high levels. Cryptic even acknowledged this in "Stop the Signal" when one Klingon officer turned out to be Undine. The fact that Cryptic spun around so fast on making the KDF completely right instead of ambiguously right was depressing, because in real life your belief in your motives matters almost nothing in international politics; rather, it is how well you can persuade and demonstrate to others that they are valid. I would also point out that any attack on a homeworld would incite a proportionate response, and it wasn't the Klingons who came up with the Genesis Device, made functional Augments (pre-warp humans), or split off to make their own high-tech insidious empire (Romulans)... I rather suspect there wouldn't be a Qo'nos, if even an Empire, after a gloves-off Federation was finished with them. To paraphrase from another series, an unambiguously good civilizaion wouldn't need so many rules and regulations; it is not the time to learn why the Federation/Starfleet has so many.
As for Klingon "Honor," Star Trek has neatly encapsulated why so many RL honor systems, especially martial ones, cause so much strife and pain. The Klingon sense of honor is entirely focused inwards, with outsiders at best considered near-honorable, even when they prove themselves loyal allies (See Worf, who will likely never considered be culturally Klingon to anyone outside of House Martok, even though his knowledge probably rivals any loremaster). What else justifies military-grade warships targeting unaffiliated civilian vessels from under cloak, or battle fleets expelling civilian populations as honorable? Consider Khitomer, a sneak attack on a nonmilitary colony; the Klingons still held a grudge against the entire Romulan people for decades after the fact. Yet they have no problem attacking civilian targets of others, and respond to criticism with essentially, "You made me hit you." Who in their right mind would trust someone like that? Especially given how easily Romulans in TNG, Changelings in DS9, and Undine and Iconians in STO have all manipulated the Klingons into doing their bidding. In fact, however annoying this trend is from a storytelling perspective, the Klingon vulnerability to manipulation is canonically well-established. It is even reasonable that the Federation might assume the Klingons had themselves been infiltrated YET AGAIN and that trusting their allegations was suicidal.
As a first aside, I would be wary of using certain RL examples. While it may be true that British rule in India was better than British rule in Africa as a general rule... that's still a horribly low bar and does not lend itself to a reasoned debate. As an example, the reasons for the American Revolution come across as almost petty compared to the reasons for other rebellions, revolts, and revolutions... more taxes and restriction of free speech compared to actual/equivalent slavery, induced famines, massacres, legally mandated second/third-class status. But do you see any American patriot agreeing with those sentiments? It's going to be worse where massacres and oppression were commonplace.
As a total aside: I kinda wish Cyrptic would bring more in of the Gorn separatists, because the ambiguity of being a Gorn "collaborator" in the KDF vs. a potential "terrorist" in the resistance is straight out of Deep Space Nine's Bajoran storylines. Or even the Orion Syndicate: how do a bunch of slavers and smugglers bypass Klingon rules? But the Gorn aren't attractive humans with earrings and crinkly noses, so I guess they don't get fun storylines... And the Orions are probably not PG enough...