I almost laughed at the end of this fictional blurb, as though they were trying to inject a little propaganda symbolism in there.
Of course, the Klingon Empire had a lot of involvement in the Iconian War. They shouldered the butcher's bill for the other two empires(yes, the Federation is an empire), and were made to look like chumps while doing so. It would make quite a bit of sense if J'mpok isn't quite so keen to throw more of his depleted forces in after that. Especially since he's rightly viewing it as his nation has gotten the raw end of this Galactic Alliance.
Eh, did we fight the same Iconian War?
The Heralds attacked the surface of New Romulus and, of course, destroyed 'old' Romulus. The first thing lost besides the Romulan homeworld was a Federation starbase. All other attacks (especially those on the Spheres) had as many Federation ships as Klingon ones.
The only thing the Klingons did that the other members of the Alliance did not, was leading and taking the initiative for a infiltration mission. And I guess I don't need to remind anyone what great a success that mission was
Problem is, per Cryptic's own blogs from earlier in the time war, there's nothing "destined" about it except that time police from one particular variant future have decided that theirs is the "correct" one no matter who it hurts and how much tampering with the timeline was required to create that version of the future.
The alternative has been shown to either be a timeline edit war that results in the obliteration of the Milky Way via giant temporal anomaly or the galaxy is absorbed into a Tuterian Sphere Builder Expanse. I'd say the timeline where our species don't go extinct is the correct one.
And I'd say the correct one is the one that existed before people started scr*wing with it for kicks. Put the Na'Kuhl homeworld back, blow up the Krenim Mary Sueperweapon's temporal core so Random Hammy Guy #12's species isn't destroyed and he doesn't use it, and let's get back to the timeline that existed before all this temporal nonsense took place.
Which would in fact fulfill Larry Niven's law of time travel: In any universe where intentional time travel is possible, it won't happen because eventually somebody is going to travel back in time and kill its inventor before he does it so they can think straight again. That I would pay to see.
"The Klingon Empire is dying, and I think it deserves to die."
A marquee moment for Ezri, where we saw the knowledge Curzon had interact with someone who didn't share Curzon and later Jadzia's overwhelming affection for the Klingon Empire and generate a new perspective, surely one of the best advantages of the joining process. She was able to see the corruption hid behind words of honor and glory and call it out for what it was. What made it hit so hard was that Worf, and through him we, had gotten to see that corruption operating in real time ever since "Sins of the Father" with the Duras trying to scapegoat him to cover their own tracks and that they had so much political power that the Chancellor himself had to kneel before it.
Judging by Archer's lawyer though, the Klingon Empire has been in a state of decline since before Enterprise when the warrior caste seized power and made the Klingon Empire revolve around their way of thinking and accomplishments in battle over anything else. The concept that they use war to weed out the weak, cowardly, and dishonorable taking primacy as the only way that gets done is a huge symptom of their problems.
In the end only one thing needs to be shown. Any civilization that cannot survive without constantly being in a war of expansion is already collapsing. See: Empire, Rome.
The Klingons are a civilization in need of a revolution.
And Nicole Deboer dropping in, in command of the Aventine would be choice.
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I almost laughed at the end of this fictional blurb, as though they were trying to inject a little propaganda symbolism in there.
Of course, the Klingon Empire had a lot of involvement in the Iconian War. They shouldered the butcher's bill for the other two empires(yes, the Federation is an empire), and were made to look like chumps while doing so. It would make quite a bit of sense if J'mpok isn't quite so keen to throw more of his depleted forces in after that. Especially since he's rightly viewing it as his nation has gotten the raw end of this Galactic Alliance.
On the other hand The Alliance placed Captain Kagran as the general commander of forces in that war, which turned out to be a huge mistake, like those designers of classic naval Battleships who believed in big decisive naval battles with their big guns wiping out opposing forces, he with his impatience threw an entire allied fleet at an Iconian Sphere and only got back a few people and scrap.
It's hardly the honorable soldiering on of the Dominion War when the Klingons were the only ones able to rapidly modify their ships to resist the Breen Energy Draining Weapon. It was just bad strategy and unwilling to accept that there would be no victory through direct combat against an obviously superior foe.
Furthermore J'Mpok's stubbornness is the reason his forces are so depleted he spent half a decade whittling down his own forces against the Federation over the Undine issue. Even if you say he was right since there was Undine infiltration, he still played into the Iconian's hands by not finding another option besides full scale war.
And whose fault is it that the Klingon economy doesn't have the developed resources for mass ship building?
Agreed. If J'mpok is smart, he'll withdraw the Klingon Empire from the Alliance. With how it's bleeding his people dry. And it would be pleasing if he did so with a political hammer's blow.
Likewise, I do wish they built more on Donatra stuff. I wonder who had the bright idea of having her go from Empress Donatra to all of a sudden Robo-Rommy. Out of nowhere too.
Withdrawing from the alliance is suicide for a variety of reasons.
First the current threat, the Hurq don't care whose allied with who, if they fight separately then they'll just work their way down until they can conquer Qo'nos again when the Klingons have no allies left.
Second, political suicide, as what the Klingons will see is a General reborn who wants to take the battle to legendary enemies, while the Chancellor stays his blade. The exact thing that made Gowron so paranoid towards the end of the Dominion War.
Sure wish Martok had killed J'mpok and taken his rightful place as leader of the Klingon Empire. J'mpok is being a coward, hiding behind the very Federation he once declared war on to prevent the Klingon Empire tearing itself apart from within, like a cowering simpering little babe.
"Each time we have allied ourselves with the Federation, with the Romulans, the Empire has emerged weaker for it."
Jm'Pok is in something of a pickle......he almost certainly knows the Klingons are destined to join the Federation, and while he clearly doesn't like that, trying to fight (Manifest) Destiny only makes things worse, kinda like how in the Terminator universe Skynet's every attempt to avert it's ultimate demise at the hands of John Connor merely makes him stronger. Trying to prevent the Federation from Manifesting it's Destiny on them just makes the Feds even stronger relative to them. He can't stop it, and can't walk away either....as the Romulans begin their march through the Federation's agencies, and Starfleet bridges everywhere fill up with sexy Romulan women with SRO.
If Player behavior is a guide for how the future goes.....future Romulans will venerate D'Tan as the shrewdest Romulan to ever have lived.
Problem is, per Cryptic's own blogs from earlier in the time war, there's nothing "destined" about it except that time police from one particular variant future have decided that theirs is the "correct" one no matter who it hurts and how much tampering with the timeline was required to create that version of the future.
The alternative has been shown to either be a timeline edit war that results in the obliteration of the Milky Way via giant temporal anomaly or the galaxy is absorbed into a Tuterian Sphere Builder Expanse. I'd say the timeline where our species don't go extinct is the correct one.
"Each time we have allied ourselves with the Federation, with the Romulans, the Empire has emerged weaker for it."
The Federation never tried to stab the Klingons in the back, just curb it's more aggressive impulses.
It was the Klingons who walked out on the Khitomer Accords. Why? To go to war with Cardassia because they believed the Detapa Council had been infiltrated by Changelings. What happened? The Klingons had been infiltrated by a Changeling who wanted to wipe out Cardassia. Result, a Federation Klingon War that weakened both sides. What happened next? The Cardassians were weakened leading them to ally with the Dominion giving the Dominion a free foothold in the Alpha Quadrant.
Allied with the Romulans. Well hell, that's taking your life into your own hands.
Then there's starting another series of wars over the Undine issue, which was just a false flag operation by the Iconians designed to weaken us by infighting. The truth is, the Klingon Empire is their own worst enemy, and always have been. Except maybe in that timeline where they're an agrarian society known for their epic poetry.
If Player behavior is a guide for how the future goes.....future Romulans will venerate D'Tan as the shrewdest Romulan to ever have lived.
Equal parts luck and skill, but for damn sure D'tan has done a masterful job twirling the Feds and KDF both around his little finger, and all without any overt lies or subterfuge. He has essentially played us to our faces with nothing but the truth.
If it weren't for the fact he's quite benevolent, D'tan could be a very dangerous man. Romulan passion tempered by Vulcan wisdom... a greater dagger one could never hope for.
i think j'mppok pick a fight he couldnt win with the federation. but gorowon sorry speeled his name wrong. he started the decline of the empire
Eh, I have to disagree there; the decline of the Empire started well before Gowron was Chancellor. I don't remember the name of the DS9 episode, but Ezri Dax made an excellent point about it to Worf once.
"The Klingon Empire is dying, and I think it deserves to die."
A marquee moment for Ezri, where we saw the knowledge Curzon had interact with someone who didn't share Curzon and later Jadzia's overwhelming affection for the Klingon Empire and generate a new perspective, surely one of the best advantages of the joining process. She was able to see the corruption hid behind words of honor and glory and call it out for what it was. What made it hit so hard was that Worf, and through him we, had gotten to see that corruption operating in real time ever since "Sins of the Father" with the Duras trying to scapegoat him to cover their own tracks and that they had so much political power that the Chancellor himself had to kneel before it.
Judging by Archer's lawyer though, the Klingon Empire has been in a state of decline since before Enterprise when the warrior caste seized power and made the Klingon Empire revolve around their way of thinking and accomplishments in battle over anything else. The concept that they use war to weed out the weak, cowardly, and dishonorable taking primacy as the only way that gets done is a huge symptom of their problems.
In the end only one thing needs to be shown. Any civilization that cannot survive without constantly being in a war of expansion is already collapsing. See: Empire, Rome.
The Klingons are a civilization in need of a revolution.
That's a very good post captain3, and I commend and respect you for it. All the thoughts I was going to write down, you've already covered. This is what's wrong with J'mpok, a symptom of a larger problem with the Empire.
It struck me pretty hard during the Klingon 1-10 level missions when our Captain and his/her crew get dragged into a dispute between the House of Martok and the House of Torg. Even though the Empire was at war with the Federation at the time we ended up killing at least as many fellow Klingons as we did Starfleet Officers, whittling down warriors who could have been used in the front lines. Heck, we lost two experienced officers in just becoming Captain!
As for the 'main' issue, you don't have to look back too far to take a different look at the Klingons sitting out from battling the Hur'q. Remember the Borg conference at the start of the Dominion arc? They want to 'hold out' and let the Federation and roms handle it, leaving their fleet nice and intact. They were blatantly called out on this point even during the conference. An opportunist will go on about the 'glory and honor' of victory in battles, while sending his forces after empires with depleted fleets from fighting the Hur'q. Note his comment in the Alliance summit during the Temporal arc. He openly believes the peace won't last. I wonder if he even WANTS it to last. Or would he rather sharpen the blades and go after the Federation, knowing they're weakened? There may indeed have to be a revolution to stop something like that.
And I'd say the correct one is the one that existed before people started scr*wing with it for kicks. Put the Na'Kuhl homeworld back, blow up the Krenim Mary Sueperweapon's temporal core so Random Hammy Guy #12's species isn't destroyed and he doesn't use it, and let's get back to the timeline that existed before all this temporal nonsense took place.
Which would in fact fulfill Larry Niven's law of time travel: In any universe where intentional time travel is possible, it won't happen because eventually somebody is going to travel back in time and kill its inventor before he does it so they can think straight again. That I would pay to see.
You'll get no argument from me, I hate time travel.
I also do wish they'd have shown in game just how the Nakhul of the 31st century got their star back. Annorax learned his lesson, and because he did, no one else benefited from it.
It's so beautiful. From a writing standpoint, she condensed the preceding what? Decade of TNG era storytelling about the Klingon empire into a minute and thirty conversation.
Everything she said wasn't just things we'd heard about, but things we'd seen and watched Worf go through. His father's name being dragged through the mud, the killer going Scot free and his honor remaining untainted, and him not even getting much of his proper respect for being the genuine article. Instead any respect he got from his people was usually them trying to bribe him to support them, like a backroom Ferengi.
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
Then I suppose I am fortunate not to have read it. Though as a ship man myself I first heard about it through the arrival of the Vesta class. I'm not a fan of the novelverse, not Destiny, the Caeliar origin of the Borg, Borg Supercubes (which makes the Borg sound like Bond Villains), Seven hacking a Doomsday Machine, just no.
But the concept of shy little Ezri finding her grounding and becoming a kick TRIBBLE captain of a new experimental bleeding edge starship? I'm down for that.
That's a very good post captain3, and I commend and respect you for it. All the thoughts I was going to write down, you've already covered. This is what's wrong with J'mpok, a symptom of a larger problem with the Empire.
It struck me pretty hard during the Klingon 1-10 level missions when our Captain and his/her crew get dragged into a dispute between the House of Martok and the House of Torg. Even though the Empire was at war with the Federation at the time we ended up killing at least as many fellow Klingons as we did Starfleet Officers, whittling down warriors who could have been used in the front lines. Heck, we lost two experienced officers in just becoming Captain!
Most kind.
A lot of people knock Star Trek Discovery for the changes they made visually (myself counted strongly among them) but I will give them great credit for how they depicted the nakedly chaotic Klingon feudalism. As soon as they lost a strong unifying leader they carried on with the war that none of them were previously interested in and didn't even try to do anything useful, just mindlessly slaughtering like they were going for some kind of interstellar massacre high score.
There has to be a saying somewhere that says, "Klingons are never too focused on a common enemy, to keep them from taking the time to kill one another."
And because of those early missions both House of Martok and House of Torg lost their heirs. And Torg's discommendation aside, that's Empire less power, less warriors for future causes. Perhaps even the future extinction of their houses.
As for the 'main' issue, you don't have to look back too far to take a different look at the Klingons sitting out from battling the Hur'q. Remember the Borg conference at the start of the Dominion arc? They want to 'hold out' and let the Federation and roms handle it, leaving their fleet nice and intact. They were blatantly called out on this point even during the conference. An opportunist will go on about the 'glory and honor' of victory in battles, while sending his forces after empires with depleted fleets from fighting the Hur'q. Note his comment in the Alliance summit during the Temporal arc. He openly believes the peace won't last. I wonder if he even WANTS it to last. Or would he rather sharpen the blades and go after the Federation, knowing they're weakened? There may indeed have to be a revolution to stop something like that.
J'mpok is the worst type of Klingon. The type who doesn't actually believe in all this talk about Klingon strength, and only truly believes the empire will be safe, once they've conquered everyone else. And that conquest can proceed by hook or by crook. Even Worf, as honorable as he is pointed out that, "In war, there is nothing more honorable than victory. "
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Problem is, per Cryptic's own blogs from earlier in the time war, there's nothing "destined" about it except that time police from one particular variant future have decided that theirs is the "correct" one no matter who it hurts and how much tampering with the timeline was required to create that version of the future.
The alternative has been shown to either be a timeline edit war that results in the obliteration of the Milky Way via giant temporal anomaly or the galaxy is absorbed into a Tuterian Sphere Builder Expanse. I'd say the timeline where our species don't go extinct is the correct one.
And I'd say the correct one is the one that existed before people started scr*wing with it for kicks. Put the Na'Kuhl homeworld back, blow up the Krenim Mary Sueperweapon's temporal core so Random Hammy Guy #12's species isn't destroyed and he doesn't use it, and let's get back to the timeline that existed before all this temporal nonsense took place.
Which would in fact fulfill Larry Niven's law of time travel: In any universe where intentional time travel is possible, it won't happen because eventually somebody is going to travel back in time and kill its inventor before he does it so they can think straight again. That I would pay to see.
There is no point of origin though. In Star Trek canon there are DOZENS of inventors from multiple eras of history. Heck you'd also have to destroy the Guardian of Forever.... which claims to be older than the universe. Wait... maybe THAT's where the Guardian came from? A crazy Bajoran went around destroying every time machine she could find as soon as it was invented then they all fused into a temporal relic of untold power?
Heh, seriously though, I have often pondered what the timeline looked like in Terminator BEFORE time travel was invented. Obviously, John Conner wasn't leader of the Resistance, but who was?
Similarly, the past in Star Trek is tainted by time travel. We have no idea what it looked like originally. I mean, Spock had HIMSELF as one of his teachers growing up....
I almost laughed at the end of this fictional blurb, as though they were trying to inject a little propaganda symbolism in there.
Of course, the Klingon Empire had a lot of involvement in the Iconian War. They shouldered the butcher's bill for the other two empires(yes, the Federation is an empire), and were made to look like chumps while doing so. It would make quite a bit of sense if J'mpok isn't quite so keen to throw more of his depleted forces in after that. Especially since he's rightly viewing it as his nation has gotten the raw end of this Galactic Alliance.
Or....
It's more like I have bigger fish to fry, such as expansion or there's another, more immediate menace or greater glory coming their way.
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
Then I suppose I am fortunate not to have read it. Though as a ship man myself I first heard about it through the arrival of the Vesta class. I'm not a fan of the novelverse, not Destiny, the Caeliar origin of the Borg, Borg Supercubes (which makes the Borg sound like Bond Villains), Seven hacking a Doomsday Machine, just no.
But the concept of shy little Ezri finding her grounding and becoming a kick **** captain of a new experimental bleeding edge starship? I'm down for that.
Yeah, but that's exactly it, though. In DS9 we have this young ensign fresh out of the Academy and working on her certification as a ship's counselor, who is suddenly thrown into the deep end because she's the only Trill available, and constantly struggles with how does she distinguish her own identity from memories of a dozen people she's never even heard of. And then in the novels suddenly she decides she's not important enough, flips to command track because apparently the only worthwhile course for a main cast member in Star Trek is starship command, then -- and this is the really fun part -- inherits command of her ship during a Borg attack and becomes this hypercompetent CO who gets there faster and does everything better than anyone else in the fleet to the point where I've joked that Novel!Ezri is secretly a STO player character (because her storyline after "What You Leave Behind" is basically the Fed tutorial and leveling missions in a nutshell). Hence, Super-Dax.
And they broke up her and Julian so they could ship him with Faith Salie's character from the Jack Pack. #dieforourship
(Doesn't help that when she previously turned up in a STO blog, they wrote her WRT a group of Klingons like she was Jadzia instead of Ezri.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What if J'mpok, who obviously did more delving than Martok had done in the catacombs, found out the original solution to pushing back the Hur'q (like an ancient weapon) and decided to keep it with the Klingons and let the other Galactic Powers waste time, lives and resources.
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
The Klingon Empire has been stagnating for centuries, like it or not it's dying. Rome is a good example of an Empire stagnating then falling due to external pressure and more importantly, internally.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
Then I suppose I am fortunate not to have read it. Though as a ship man myself I first heard about it through the arrival of the Vesta class. I'm not a fan of the novelverse, not Destiny, the Caeliar origin of the Borg, Borg Supercubes (which makes the Borg sound like Bond Villains), Seven hacking a Doomsday Machine, just no.
But the concept of shy little Ezri finding her grounding and becoming a kick **** captain of a new experimental bleeding edge starship? I'm down for that.
Yeah, but that's exactly it, though. In DS9 we have this young ensign fresh out of the Academy and working on her certification as a ship's counselor, who is suddenly thrown into the deep end because she's the only Trill available, and constantly struggles with how does she distinguish her own identity from memories of a dozen people she's never even heard of. And then in the novels suddenly she decides she's not important enough, flips to command track because apparently the only worthwhile course for a main cast member in Star Trek is starship command, then -- and this is the really fun part -- inherits command of her ship during a Borg attack and becomes this hypercompetent CO who gets there faster and does everything better than anyone else in the fleet to the point where I've joked that Novel!Ezri is secretly a STO player character (because her storyline after "What You Leave Behind" is basically the Fed tutorial and leveling missions in a nutshell). Hence, Super-Dax.
And they broke up her and Julian so they could ship him with Faith Salie's character from the Jack Pack. #dieforourship
(Doesn't help that when she previously turned up in a STO blog, they wrote her WRT a group of Klingons like she was Jadzia instead of Ezri.)
Really? Wow. I mean on the one hand I can understand Ezri getting fully acclimated to the symbiont and drawing on Dax's lifetime of experience to mature more rapidly. But her basically shifting her entire persona by deciding she's not important enough (really?) that's certainly a character...alteration (I'm trying to be charitable). I mean she's a psychiatrist knowing herself and having confidence in who she is with all those Daxes in her head, was a major part of her journey. It was her journey. I mean I can understand her ending up in the command chair and then getting a taste for it like Beverly and Deanna did, but you're describing....a mid-life crisis that works out ok.
I'm on the fence about that though, cause I actually liked Sarina a lot with Julian. It was an adorable relationship.
But I mean, Bashir and Dax is like Loxley and Bagel, you can't miss.
What if J'mpok, who obviously did more delving than Martok had done in the catacombs, found out the original solution to pushing back the Hur'q (like an ancient weapon) and decided to keep it with the Klingons and let the other Galactic Powers waste time, lives and resources.
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
That's perfectly in line with J'Mpok as displayed. Part of the reason he brought Martok down may have been to see if he knew about such a thing, verifying that he didn't, he plays it close to the chest.
Martok can then go off, get himself killed along with other warriors who think like him or would follow him, and then when they're all dead J'mpok had no further problems from challengers and gets rid of his nemesis without even raising a finger. Shrewd. Treacherous and deceitful on a level that would give a Romulan Imperial an erection, but definitely shrewd.
The Klingon Empire has been stagnating for centuries, like it or not it's dying. Rome is a good example of an Empire stagnating then falling due to external pressure and more importantly, internally.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
Especially when they actively suppress new ideas and different frames of thinking. A genius scientist like Kurak gets no respect, no medical profession to speak of, and the only art is art that glorifies past battles or new battles. It's a one track mind civilization.
You could say the same thing about the Ferengi except business and economics thrives on diversification. Even if the Ferengi only believe in commerce, commerce is something that can keep a civilization going for a long time since commerce provides for other sectors of life. Even their religion and spirituality is centered around it. Commerce unlike war is constructive rather than destructive. Commerce allows for the existence of other civilizations.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
Then I suppose I am fortunate not to have read it. Though as a ship man myself I first heard about it through the arrival of the Vesta class. I'm not a fan of the novelverse, not Destiny, the Caeliar origin of the Borg, Borg Supercubes (which makes the Borg sound like Bond Villains), Seven hacking a Doomsday Machine, just no.
But the concept of shy little Ezri finding her grounding and becoming a kick **** captain of a new experimental bleeding edge starship? I'm down for that.
Yeah, but that's exactly it, though. In DS9 we have this young ensign fresh out of the Academy and working on her certification as a ship's counselor, who is suddenly thrown into the deep end because she's the only Trill available, and constantly struggles with how does she distinguish her own identity from memories of a dozen people she's never even heard of. And then in the novels suddenly she decides she's not important enough, flips to command track because apparently the only worthwhile course for a main cast member in Star Trek is starship command, then -- and this is the really fun part -- inherits command of her ship during a Borg attack and becomes this hypercompetent CO who gets there faster and does everything better than anyone else in the fleet to the point where I've joked that Novel!Ezri is secretly a STO player character (because her storyline after "What You Leave Behind" is basically the Fed tutorial and leveling missions in a nutshell). Hence, Super-Dax.
And they broke up her and Julian so they could ship him with Faith Salie's character from the Jack Pack. #dieforourship
(Doesn't help that when she previously turned up in a STO blog, they wrote her WRT a group of Klingons like she was Jadzia instead of Ezri.)
Really? Wow. I mean on the one hand I can understand Ezri getting fully acclimated to the symbiont and drawing on Dax's lifetime of experience to mature more rapidly. But her basically shifting her entire persona by deciding she's not important enough (really?) that's certainly a character...alteration (I'm trying to be charitable). I mean she's a psychiatrist knowing herself and having confidence in who she is with all those Daxes in her head, was a major part of her journey. It was her journey. I mean I can understand her ending up in the command chair and then getting a taste for it like Beverly and Deanna did, but you're describing....a mid-life crisis that works out ok.
I'm on the fence about that though, cause I actually liked Sarina a lot with Julian. It was an adorable relationship.
But I mean, Bashir and Dax is like Loxley and Bagel, you can't miss.
What if J'mpok, who obviously did more delving than Martok had done in the catacombs, found out the original solution to pushing back the Hur'q (like an ancient weapon) and decided to keep it with the Klingons and let the other Galactic Powers waste time, lives and resources.
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
That's perfectly in line with J'Mpok as displayed. Part of the reason he brought Martok down may have been to see if he knew about such a thing, verifying that he didn't, he plays it close to the chest.
Martok can then go off, get himself killed along with other warriors who think like him or would follow him, and then when they're all dead J'mpok had no further problems from challengers and gets rid of his nemesis without even raising a finger. Shrewd. Treacherous and deceitful on a level that would give a Romulan Imperial an erection, but definitely shrewd.
The Klingon Empire has been stagnating for centuries, like it or not it's dying. Rome is a good example of an Empire stagnating then falling due to external pressure and more importantly, internally.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
Especially when they actively suppress new ideas and different frames of thinking. A genius scientist like Kurak gets no respect, no medical profession to speak of, and the only art is art that glorifies past battles or new battles. It's a one track mind civilization.
You could say the same thing about the Ferengi except business and economics thrives on diversification. Even if the Ferengi only believe in commerce, commerce is something that can keep a civilization going for a long time since commerce provides for other sectors of life. Even their religion and spirituality is centered around it. Commerce unlike war is constructive rather than destructive. Commerce allows for the existence of other civilizations.
Humanity was warlike until they nearly wiped themselves out due to wars, they adapted and instead of living in the past, they moved forward (granted that the Vulcans gently nudged them on). That said, the human civilization by the time of the 25th century is one of the strongest and most unpredictable.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
What if J'mpok, who obviously did more delving than Martok had done in the catacombs, found out the original solution to pushing back the Hur'q (like an ancient weapon) and decided to keep it with the Klingons and let the other Galactic Powers waste time, lives and resources.
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
That's perfectly in line with J'Mpok as displayed. Part of the reason he brought Martok down may have been to see if he knew about such a thing, verifying that he didn't, he plays it close to the chest.
Martok can then go off, get himself killed along with other warriors who think like him or would follow him, and then when they're all dead J'mpok had no further problems from challengers and gets rid of his nemesis without even raising a finger. Shrewd. Treacherous and deceitful on a level that would give a Romulan Imperial an erection, but definitely shrewd.
Well that's the thing about Klingons, their sense of honor doesn't map to how we in the Western world define it. There's actually two words in tlhIngan Hol that are translated as honor. They talk a lot about integrity and strength of character (batlh), but the reality is a lot more like A Song of Ice and Fire minus the dragons and White Walkers: it's wrapped up in feudal politics, maintaining appearances while trying to raise the star of your family (quv), which means a lot of backstabbing and court intrigue. This is especially true with professional politicians like Gowron and J'mpok who don't have a whole lot of external honor (respect from others, also quv) as war leaders: Gowron is, well, check TNG and "The Way of the Warrior", while J'mpok launched a wildcat invasion of Romulan space after Hobus only to have Admiral Taris kick his moqDu' up between his ears and send him running back home to Qo'noS (which is how she ended up as praetor).
Whereas Martok, original flavor, is a common-born professional soldier with a track record of competence if not necessarily brilliance as a manager (which is really what a general in any military organization is).
The Klingon Empire has been stagnating for centuries, like it or not it's dying. Rome is a good example of an Empire stagnating then falling due to external pressure and more importantly, internally.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
Especially when they actively suppress new ideas and different frames of thinking. A genius scientist like Kurak gets no respect, no medical profession to speak of, and the only art is art that glorifies past battles or new battles. It's a one track mind civilization.
You could say the same thing about the Ferengi except business and economics thrives on diversification. Even if the Ferengi only believe in commerce, commerce is something that can keep a civilization going for a long time since commerce provides for other sectors of life. Even their religion and spirituality is centered around it. Commerce unlike war is constructive rather than destructive. Commerce allows for the existence of other civilizations.
Only in moderation. Unchecked, it stifles innovation from company heads using whatever means they can get away with to eliminate competitors and pad their bottom lines (see repealing net neutrality), and leads to greater instability by stifling social mobility.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yeah Klingon honour doesn't seem to be the same thing that we associate honour with. I remarked to a friend of mine last night that if I had to pick a word that I feel best accurately describes klingon honour would be "Reputation." So long as the Klingon and his/her House (and family) look good to their peers and enjoy a good reputation then nothing else matters. Its not real honour. Add in all the lives, ships and resources lost to feudalism and corrupt politics and its no wonder the Klingon Empire is in decline.
It seemed to be implied in that Enterprise episode where Archer was being tried by a Klingon court that the Empire has been in decline since before even that era. It suggests that Klingon culture was perhaps different before the rise of the warrior caste. I might have liked to seen early Klingon culture. As to looking toward the future I do wonder how they accept joining the Federation. Seems like it would take some kind of revolution or civil war as other posters have said.
Well, SOMETHING significant certainly had to give for the Klingons to join the Federation (as they're said to in several potential futures). Otherwise it's not really plausible: why would the nobles who rule the Empire willingly adopt Federation-style egalitarianism when the status quo is to their benefit?
One thing I wrote in an upcoming fanfic chapter was a banned Klingon political party called qaStaHvIS nItebHa' Qap HoS (literally "Strength in Working Together"), which is basically a Klingon Marxist group. They end up getting a safe haven on the Federation side of the border where their ideas can presumably percolate across.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There's an old Klingon proverb that reverberated through my head while I read the conversation between Martok and Jm'pok - "Only a fool fights in a burning house." Either Jm'pok doesn't see the fire, or he completely misunderstands the point of the proverb. If they leave the fighting to the Feds and Roms, as Jm'pok would prefer, the fire they fight might yet consume the entire galaxy, and trust me, Jm'pok is no Kahless to fight off the threat all by himself. Their best bet to save the Klingon people is in fact to remain in alliance with the other great powers of this half of the galaxy, to fight beside them and show them how a Klingon defeats Hur'q.
For that matter, that helps explain the Federation ambassador at the Temporal Accords being a Klingon in full regalia; what, are they supposed to leave defense of the entire galaxy to the Feds, who are (in a Klingon view) pretty much rubbish at fighting? That just leaves wars continually washing up against the Empire's doorstep. In alliance with Feds, though, they can stay out there on the front lines, showing those fools how it's done. They don't have to soften to Feddie-bear levels - the Feds are tied by their own words into respecting cultural differences. (Of course, as Quark observed, they're more insidious than that - and, like root beer, once you've tasted enough of Federation standards, you start to like them. )
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
Then I suppose I am fortunate not to have read it. Though as a ship man myself I first heard about it through the arrival of the Vesta class. I'm not a fan of the novelverse, not Destiny, the Caeliar origin of the Borg, Borg Supercubes (which makes the Borg sound like Bond Villains), Seven hacking a Doomsday Machine, just no.
But the concept of shy little Ezri finding her grounding and becoming a kick **** captain of a new experimental bleeding edge starship? I'm down for that.
Yeah, but that's exactly it, though. In DS9 we have this young ensign fresh out of the Academy and working on her certification as a ship's counselor, who is suddenly thrown into the deep end because she's the only Trill available, and constantly struggles with how does she distinguish her own identity from memories of a dozen people she's never even heard of. And then in the novels suddenly she decides she's not important enough, flips to command track because apparently the only worthwhile course for a main cast member in Star Trek is starship command, then -- and this is the really fun part -- inherits command of her ship during a Borg attack and becomes this hypercompetent CO who gets there faster and does everything better than anyone else in the fleet to the point where I've joked that Novel!Ezri is secretly a STO player character (because her storyline after "What You Leave Behind" is basically the Fed tutorial and leveling missions in a nutshell). Hence, Super-Dax.
And they broke up her and Julian so they could ship him with Faith Salie's character from the Jack Pack. #dieforourship
(Doesn't help that when she previously turned up in a STO blog, they wrote her WRT a group of Klingons like she was Jadzia instead of Ezri.)
Really? Wow. I mean on the one hand I can understand Ezri getting fully acclimated to the symbiont and drawing on Dax's lifetime of experience to mature more rapidly. But her basically shifting her entire persona by deciding she's not important enough (really?) that's certainly a character...alteration (I'm trying to be charitable). I mean she's a psychiatrist knowing herself and having confidence in who she is with all those Daxes in her head, was a major part of her journey. It was her journey. I mean I can understand her ending up in the command chair and then getting a taste for it like Beverly and Deanna did, but you're describing....a mid-life crisis that works out ok.
I'm on the fence about that though, cause I actually liked Sarina a lot with Julian. It was an adorable relationship.
But I mean, Bashir and Dax is like Loxley and Bagel, you can't miss.
What if J'mpok, who obviously did more delving than Martok had done in the catacombs, found out the original solution to pushing back the Hur'q (like an ancient weapon) and decided to keep it with the Klingons and let the other Galactic Powers waste time, lives and resources.
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
That's perfectly in line with J'Mpok as displayed. Part of the reason he brought Martok down may have been to see if he knew about such a thing, verifying that he didn't, he plays it close to the chest.
Martok can then go off, get himself killed along with other warriors who think like him or would follow him, and then when they're all dead J'mpok had no further problems from challengers and gets rid of his nemesis without even raising a finger. Shrewd. Treacherous and deceitful on a level that would give a Romulan Imperial an erection, but definitely shrewd.
The Klingon Empire has been stagnating for centuries, like it or not it's dying. Rome is a good example of an Empire stagnating then falling due to external pressure and more importantly, internally.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
Especially when they actively suppress new ideas and different frames of thinking. A genius scientist like Kurak gets no respect, no medical profession to speak of, and the only art is art that glorifies past battles or new battles. It's a one track mind civilization.
You could say the same thing about the Ferengi except business and economics thrives on diversification. Even if the Ferengi only believe in commerce, commerce is something that can keep a civilization going for a long time since commerce provides for other sectors of life. Even their religion and spirituality is centered around it. Commerce unlike war is constructive rather than destructive. Commerce allows for the existence of other civilizations.
Humanity was warlike until they nearly wiped themselves out due to wars, they adapted and instead of living in the past, they moved forward (granted that the Vulcans gently nudged them on). That said, the human civilization by the time of the 25th century is one of the strongest and most unpredictable.
I think there's a key difference between Klingons and humans in war.
Humans believe in saving lives and preserving people.
Klingons believe with religious fervor that there is nothing better than dying in battle.
What if J'mpok, who obviously did more delving than Martok had done in the catacombs, found out the original solution to pushing back the Hur'q (like an ancient weapon) and decided to keep it with the Klingons and let the other Galactic Powers waste time, lives and resources.
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
That's perfectly in line with J'Mpok as displayed. Part of the reason he brought Martok down may have been to see if he knew about such a thing, verifying that he didn't, he plays it close to the chest.
Martok can then go off, get himself killed along with other warriors who think like him or would follow him, and then when they're all dead J'mpok had no further problems from challengers and gets rid of his nemesis without even raising a finger. Shrewd. Treacherous and deceitful on a level that would give a Romulan Imperial an erection, but definitely shrewd.
Well that's the thing about Klingons, their sense of honor doesn't map to how we in the Western world define it. There's actually two words in tlhIngan Hol that are translated as honor. They talk a lot about integrity and strength of character (batlh), but the reality is a lot more like A Song of Ice and Fire minus the dragons and White Walkers: it's wrapped up in feudal politics, maintaining appearances while trying to raise the star of your family (quv), which means a lot of backstabbing and court intrigue. This is especially true with professional politicians like Gowron and J'mpok who don't have a whole lot of external honor (respect from others, also quv) as war leaders: Gowron is, well, check TNG and "The Way of the Warrior", while J'mpok launched a wildcat invasion of Romulan space after Hobus only to have Admiral Taris kick his moqDu' up between his ears and send him running back home to Qo'noS (which is how she ended up as praetor).
Whereas Martok, original flavor, is a common-born professional soldier with a track record of competence if not necessarily brilliance as a manager (which is really what a general in any military organization is).
I think that was a significant part of the rise of the warrior caste Quv, took primacy because it's faster and flashier to raise your family's Quv in battle than it is to showcase your Batlh over time by being a Klingon of integrity and principle. The victory of the loud over the substantive.
Gowron had gone bad before that. Right after Redemption he was rewriting the history books to erase Starfleet's involvement and assistance in his rise.
The Klingon Empire has been stagnating for centuries, like it or not it's dying. Rome is a good example of an Empire stagnating then falling due to external pressure and more importantly, internally.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
Especially when they actively suppress new ideas and different frames of thinking. A genius scientist like Kurak gets no respect, no medical profession to speak of, and the only art is art that glorifies past battles or new battles. It's a one track mind civilization.
You could say the same thing about the Ferengi except business and economics thrives on diversification. Even if the Ferengi only believe in commerce, commerce is something that can keep a civilization going for a long time since commerce provides for other sectors of life. Even their religion and spirituality is centered around it. Commerce unlike war is constructive rather than destructive. Commerce allows for the existence of other civilizations.
Only in moderation. Unchecked, it stifles innovation from company heads using whatever means they can get away with to eliminate competitors and pad their bottom lines (see repealing net neutrality), and leads to greater instability by stifling social mobility.
Of course, everything in moderation. Even the most beneficial thing can be poisoned by excess.
Yeah Klingon honour doesn't seem to be the same thing that we associate honour with. I remarked to a friend of mine last night that if I had to pick a word that I feel best accurately describes klingon honour would be "Reputation." So long as the Klingon and his/her House (and family) look good to their peers and enjoy a good reputation then nothing else matters. Its not real honour. Add in all the lives, ships and resources lost to feudalism and corrupt politics and its no wonder the Klingon Empire is in decline.
It seemed to be implied in that Enterprise episode where Archer was being tried by a Klingon court that the Empire has been in decline since before even that era. It suggests that Klingon culture was perhaps different before the rise of the warrior caste. I might have liked to seen early Klingon culture. As to looking toward the future I do wonder how they accept joining the Federation. Seems like it would take some kind of revolution or civil war as other posters have said.
Reputation. EXCELLENT translation for Quv.
It was "Judgment" and Kolos all but stated outright that the shift happened within his lifetime, his parents were respected despite having purely intellectual roles his father a teacher and his mother a biologist, and they advised him to be a lawyer.
Discovery showed that a century later the Klingons weren't a threat at all because they were constantly fighting each other. T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell gave us the modern unified Klingon empire, but truthfully that was only a bandage. It didn't change the trajectory, it just slowed down the decline.
Well, SOMETHING significant certainly had to give for the Klingons to join the Federation (as they're said to in several potential futures). Otherwise it's not really plausible: why would the nobles who rule the Empire willingly adopt Federation-style egalitarianism when the status quo is to their benefit?
One thing I wrote in an upcoming fanfic chapter was a banned Klingon political party called qaStaHvIS nItebHa' Qap HoS (literally "Strength in Working Together"), which is basically a Klingon Marxist group. They end up getting a safe haven on the Federation side of the border where their ideas can presumably percolate across.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me. As in most societies, the elites are vastly outnumbered by the Klingons who get passed over and overlooked despite their jobs keeping the empire functioning. In that regard Martok could likely be won over to their cause considering how Kor treated him. While Worf would be an ideal leader for such a cause, or just a symbol, we'd need a young new hot shot Klingon one who can make it as a warrior, but sees the value in the movement's ideals. A true believer. A Damar if you will.
There's an old Klingon proverb that reverberated through my head while I read the conversation between Martok and Jm'pok - "Only a fool fights in a burning house." Either Jm'pok doesn't see the fire, or he completely misunderstands the point of the proverb. If they leave the fighting to the Feds and Roms, as Jm'pok would prefer, the fire they fight might yet consume the entire galaxy, and trust me, Jm'pok is no Kahless to fight off the threat all by himself. Their best bet to save the Klingon people is in fact to remain in alliance with the other great powers of this half of the galaxy, to fight beside them and show them how a Klingon defeats Hur'q.
For that matter, that helps explain the Federation ambassador at the Temporal Accords being a Klingon in full regalia; what, are they supposed to leave defense of the entire galaxy to the Feds, who are (in a Klingon view) pretty much rubbish at fighting? That just leaves wars continually washing up against the Empire's doorstep. In alliance with Feds, though, they can stay out there on the front lines, showing those fools how it's done. They don't have to soften to Feddie-bear levels - the Feds are tied by their own words into respecting cultural differences. (Of course, as Quark observed, they're more insidious than that - and, like root beer, once you've tasted enough of Federation standards, you start to like them. )
I've thought for a very long time that the Klingon psyche is completely warped in regard to the Hur'q. It's like they're an abuse survivor. The Hur'q were their first contact. Their first contact with alien life was a massive invasion force that conquered the proud Klingon people. They're still carrying around that scar; just like Martok. Their military isn't called the Klingon Imperial Fleet, it's the Klingon Defense Force. The Hur'q put the fear into them. When the Hur'q were gone they set out into the galaxy and conquered other people. That's not a simple lack of empathy. They were building buffer zones around themselves in case the Hur'q came back. Many Klingons have dreamed of facing the Hur'q. Everyone wants to fight the Boogey Man. The older warriors though like J'mpok are scared, because they know the history.
Conversely to your second point, the only powers that have ever truly staved off the Klingon Empire are the Romulans and the Federation. The idea that the Federation is rubbish at fighting isn't supported by the history. They don't like fighting, but as Quark also observed, it isn't wise to sleep on them. Take away their Holosuites, food, and safety for a prolonged period of time hew-mons can be just as vicious and bloodthirsty as any Klingon.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
It was "Judgment" and Kolos all but stated outright that the shift happened within his lifetime, his parents were respected despite having purely intellectual roles his father a teacher and his mother a biologist, and they advised him to be a lawyer.
Discovery showed that a century later the Klingons weren't a threat at all because they were constantly fighting each other. T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell gave us the modern unified Klingon empire, but truthfully that was only a bandage. It didn't change the trajectory, it just slowed down the decline.
Which Klingon was it that said "Dying with honor is easy, living every day with honor? Now THAT is a challenge worthy of a true warrior!"
It seems most Klingons aren't equal to such a challenge.
If J'mpok is relying on an ancient weapon or method or whatever was used by the Klingons against the Hur'q the first time around, it may be a bit of a gamble, esp. if the Hur'q learned from previous experience, had evolved over the centuries, or are harbringers of something even worse....
Hmmm, what if this solution was stolen by Quark (most likely a paid agent/mercenary) to be bid off to the highest bidder) while J'mpok thinks it's safely stored away for the big masterstroke?
Well that's the thing about Klingons, their sense of honor doesn't map to how we in the Western world define it. There's actually two words in tlhIngan Hol that are translated as honor. They talk a lot about integrity and strength of character (batlh), but the reality is a lot more like A Song of Ice and Fire minus the dragons and White Walkers: it's wrapped up in feudal politics, maintaining appearances while trying to raise the star of your family (quv), which means a lot of backstabbing and court intrigue. This is especially true with professional politicians like Gowron and J'mpok who don't have a whole lot of external honor (respect from others, also quv) as war leaders: Gowron is, well, check TNG and "The Way of the Warrior", while J'mpok launched a wildcat invasion of Romulan space after Hobus only to have Admiral Taris kick his moqDu' up between his ears and send him running back home to Qo'noS (which is how she ended up as praetor).
Whereas Martok, original flavor, is a common-born professional soldier with a track record of competence if not necessarily brilliance as a manager (which is really what a general in any military organization is).
I think that was a significant part of the rise of the warrior caste Quv, took primacy because it's faster and flashier to raise your family's Quv in battle than it is to showcase your Batlh over time by being a Klingon of integrity and principle. The victory of the loud over the substantive.
Gowron had gone bad before that. Right after Redemption he was rewriting the history books to erase Starfleet's involvement and assistance in his rise.
To borrow another concept from A Game of Thrones, "Do you still believe good commanders make good kings?" (Let's not beat around the bush, the Klingon Empire is for all intents and purposes an elective monarchy, with the Chancellor standing in for a king.)
This might be best to explain in terms of history. Martok was a good commander, but in Cryptic's version of events he proved a less-than-capable ruler in peacetime. The feud between him and J'mpok started over foreign policy towards the Federation and Gorn and escalated to the point where Martok lost his temper during a Council meeting and tried to discommendate him. The meeting where J'mpok killed him was actually an attempt to turn back the clock and avert civil war (which it did, but obviously not in the way Martok hoped). IOW, rather like Ulysses Grant, he's a good general but a poor statesman (the Grant Administration was horrifically corrupt), whereas J'mpok has proven to be a questionable war leader at best (reference putting Emperor Darwin Award and Zapp Kagran in charge of anything ever), but a reasonably good statesman.
(Which is something I dealt with in one of my other fics. Scroll down to A Matter of Honor, warnings for language and mild adult themes. #shamelessplug)
All of which does not change the fact that, in the short term, Gowron was a better choice than the other option(s) (I'm sure there were other candidates, but he and Duras were the front-runners to succeed K'mpec), and Martok was a better choice than Gowron. ETA: And it may play into what's going on in Kael's story: perhaps they're deciding to bury the hatchet and try to play to each other's strengths, let Martok be the general and J'mpok be the statesman.
Essentially, the Klingon Empire is a study in contradictions (as indeed are most societies). The culture worships war heroes, but it also fears them: since coups and mutinies are not just common but accepted means of advancement, an up-and-coming warrior is a threat to those above them, as we see with Gowron trying to pull an Uriah Gambit on Martok after Second Chin'toka (either Martok gets himself killed, or his reputation, quv, is ruined and no one would accept him if he did challenge Gowron). For real-world comparisons, you can look at the Roman Empire -- it's fair to say that Emperor Valentinian III doomed the Western Empire by murdering General Flavius Aetius after the latter's victory over Attila the Hun at the Catalaunian Plains, out of fear Aetius planned to overthrow him. Or you can look at many armies in the Arab world today, which often suffer from poor training, discipline, and morale in part because the kings and dictators they serve fear to allow their senior officers to become effective enough to mount a coup (they themselves often came to power that way). Which leads to inefficiency due to overcentralization of command-and-control (for fear that the regime may lose control of the army), which is compounded by classism (also present in the Klingon Empire, reference Kor initially blacklisting the common-born Martok from becoming an officer).
In contrast, the Federation may laud its heroes, but (like Western governments) it has a tradition of the military being subservient to the elected civilian government and the constitution that governs the government, rather than being a means by which the government gains and/or maintains its authority. Which doesn't mean it goes unchallenged, c.f. "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost".
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Humans are also smart enough to know when to adapt their culture, adaptability creates stronger cultures and progression in fields of science and technology. Progression improves a culture (Example being the Age of Enlightenment and the abolition of slavery by the British in 1833) where as the Klingons still practice slavery, a practice humanity stopped.
Humans on the galactic stage have been called on as neutral mediators (See Archer getting Vulcan and Andoria to sign a treaty in 2152). Klingons, not so much. They say that honor comes in victory but where's the honor in killing civilians and the use the of POWs as slave labor?
Come to think of it, what ever happened to Federation POWs captured by the Klingons and did the Klingons sign any agreements on the fair treatment of POWs?
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It was "Judgment" and Kolos all but stated outright that the shift happened within his lifetime, his parents were respected despite having purely intellectual roles his father a teacher and his mother a biologist, and they advised him to be a lawyer.
Discovery showed that a century later the Klingons weren't a threat at all because they were constantly fighting each other. T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell gave us the modern unified Klingon empire, but truthfully that was only a bandage. It didn't change the trajectory, it just slowed down the decline.
Which Klingon was it that said "Dying with honor is easy, living every day with honor? Now THAT is a challenge worthy of a true warrior!"
It seems most Klingons aren't equal to such a challenge.
I'm not even sure most Klingons are even aware of that challenge.
If J'mpok is relying on an ancient weapon or method or whatever was used by the Klingons against the Hur'q the first time around, it may be a bit of a gamble, esp. if the Hur'q learned from previous experience, had evolved over the centuries, or are harbringers of something even worse....
Hmmm, what if this solution was stolen by Quark (most likely a paid agent/mercenary) to be bid off to the highest bidder) while J'mpok thinks it's safely stored away for the big masterstroke?
Well that's the thing about Klingons, their sense of honor doesn't map to how we in the Western world define it. There's actually two words in tlhIngan Hol that are translated as honor. They talk a lot about integrity and strength of character (batlh), but the reality is a lot more like A Song of Ice and Fire minus the dragons and White Walkers: it's wrapped up in feudal politics, maintaining appearances while trying to raise the star of your family (quv), which means a lot of backstabbing and court intrigue. This is especially true with professional politicians like Gowron and J'mpok who don't have a whole lot of external honor (respect from others, also quv) as war leaders: Gowron is, well, check TNG and "The Way of the Warrior", while J'mpok launched a wildcat invasion of Romulan space after Hobus only to have Admiral Taris kick his moqDu' up between his ears and send him running back home to Qo'noS (which is how she ended up as praetor).
Whereas Martok, original flavor, is a common-born professional soldier with a track record of competence if not necessarily brilliance as a manager (which is really what a general in any military organization is).
I think that was a significant part of the rise of the warrior caste Quv, took primacy because it's faster and flashier to raise your family's Quv in battle than it is to showcase your Batlh over time by being a Klingon of integrity and principle. The victory of the loud over the substantive.
Gowron had gone bad before that. Right after Redemption he was rewriting the history books to erase Starfleet's involvement and assistance in his rise.
To borrow another concept from A Game of Thrones, "Do you still believe good commanders make good kings?" (Let's not beat around the bush, the Klingon Empire is for all intents and purposes an elective monarchy, with the Chancellor standing in for a king.)
This might be best to explain in terms of history. Martok was a good commander, but in Cryptic's version of events he proved a less-than-capable ruler in peacetime. The feud between him and J'mpok started over foreign policy towards the Federation and Gorn and escalated to the point where Martok lost his temper during a Council meeting and tried to discommendate him. The meeting where J'mpok killed him was actually an attempt to turn back the clock and avert civil war (which it did, but obviously not in the way Martok hoped). IOW, rather like Ulysses Grant, he's a good general but a poor statesman (the Grant Administration was horrifically corrupt), whereas J'mpok has proven to be a questionable war leader at best (reference putting Emperor Darwin Award and Zapp Kagran in charge of anything ever), but a reasonably good statesman.
(Which is something I dealt with in one of my other fics. Scroll down to A Matter of Honor, warnings for language and mild adult themes. #shamelessplug)
All of which does not change the fact that, in the short term, Gowron was a better choice than the other option(s) (I'm sure there were other candidates, but he and Duras were the front-runners to succeed K'mpec), and Martok was a better choice than Gowron. ETA: And it may play into what's going on in Kael's story: perhaps they're deciding to bury the hatchet and try to play to each other's strengths, let Martok be the general and J'mpok be the statesman.
Well, Martok was actually correct in the long term and J'mpok ended up leading a war that weakened both the Federation and the Empire while a much greater foe loomed in the shadows pleased at out our predictable progress. It's more of what people criticize Wakanda about. Leadership of a nation being decided via combat isn't that great when you have someone who will be a self destructive leader who is a better fighter.
As for Gowron it's interesting. I've seen it brought up on other blogs in recaps of TNG. They never actually solved the mystery of who poisoned K'mpec. Worf killed Duras for personal reasons, but the murder mystery was inconclusive. Gowron won the civil war and ended up Chancellor almost by default. For all we know though, he did poison K'mpec and was an honorless dog the whole time.
The Duras' main strike against them was their longstanding alliance with the Romulans and resulting treasonous actions. But that's when viewed from a Federation perspective. From the Klingon perspective though they had immense reputation, power, and were masters at navigating Klingon politics. They likely would've provided a more stable Klingon regime.
That said, they would've also certainly accelerated the deterioration of the Klingon cultural state and allied with the Dominion, so yeah Gowron was the better of two bad choices. Damn shame Worf never wanted the job.
Essentially, the Klingon Empire is a study in contradictions (as indeed are most societies). The culture worships war heroes, but it also fears them: since coups and mutinies are not just common but accepted means of advancement, an up-and-coming warrior is a threat to those above them, as we see with Gowron trying to pull an Uriah Gambit on Martok after Second Chin'toka (either Martok gets himself killed, or his reputation, quv, is ruined and no one would accept him if he did challenge Gowron). For real-world comparisons, you can look at the Roman Empire -- it's fair to say that Emperor Valentinian III doomed the Western Empire by murdering General Flavius Aetius after the latter's victory over Attila the Hun at the Catalaunian Plains, out of fear Aetius planned to overthrow him. Or you can look at many armies in the Arab world today, which often suffer from poor training, discipline, and morale in part because the kings and dictators they serve fear to allow their senior officers to become effective enough to mount a coup (they themselves often came to power that way). Which leads to inefficiency due to overcentralization of command-and-control (for fear that the regime may lose control of the army), which is compounded by classism (also present in the Klingon Empire, reference Kor initially blacklisting the common-born Martok from becoming an officer).
In contrast, the Federation may laud its heroes, but (like Western governments) it has a tradition of the military being subservient to the elected civilian government and the constitution that governs the government, rather than being a means by which the government gains and/or maintains its authority. Which doesn't mean it goes unchallenged, c.f. "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost".
The Klingon Empire is worse than that since their military isn't unified, but instead tribalized, each House maintaining their own private fleets that are pledged to the Empire. So each individual faction is its own military power. So in order to attain power you have to gain the loyalty of the individual houses.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Humans are also smart enough to know when to adapt their culture, adaptability creates stronger cultures and progression in fields of science and technology. Progression improves a culture (Example being the Age of Enlightenment and the abolition of slavery by the British in 1833) where as the Klingons still practice slavery, a practice humanity stopped.
Humans on the galactic stage have been called on as neutral mediators (See Archer getting Vulcan and Andoria to sign a treaty in 2152). Klingons, not so much. They say that honor comes in victory but where's the honor in killing civilians and the use the of POWs as slave labor?
Come to think of it, what ever happened to Federation POWs captured by the Klingons and did the Klingons sign any agreements on the fair treatment of POWs?
That is a very good question.....one I have little doubt Starfleet and the Federation Council goes to great lengths to avoid answering, lest it cause public unrest. Between "The Final Reflection" (the Ur-document for the modern portrayal of Klingons), STO DOFF missions for the KDF, and the occasional movie and ST episodes.....I would say that fate was rather grim, and would violate Forum TOS to discuss in any detail. I wonder if there will be a "Truth and Reconciliation" committee set up when the Klingons join the Federation, where they have to account for each of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Federation citizens that fell into their hands over the centuries and were never heard from again.
I'm guessing.....not. It would make them look bad to have to admit just how many of their own people they had callously abandoned to a cruel fate, and worse, it would interfere with their current diplomacy and worse than that....their political career. The needs of the Few outweigh those of the Many, or the One.
The truth is, the Klingon Empire is their own worst enemy, and always have been. Except maybe in that timeline where they're an agrarian society known for their epic poetry.
wow. you're REALLY hitting the wayback machine with THAT reference. i've read that book.
One thing I do wonder (tangentially related) is what happened with the HOUSE of Martok. Drex is still alive (unfortunately his son M'Ven, Martok's grandson, dies in the Torg arc), but did Dad take back his position as joH ("lord") when he came back from the dead? And what does Lady Sirella, the only thing Martok fears, think of all this?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In my opinion, The Final Reflectionshould have been used as the source document for Klingons - but it was not, as has been evident since STTMP. The closest we have is a passing reference to klin zha in K'Valk's dialog when you release him from the brig aboard IKS Targ in the "Boarding Party" segment of the mission "Doomsday Device" (and he doesn't even call it klin zha kinta, just says that Klingons shouldn't be "moved about like pieces in a klin zha game").
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
During the most recent Fed/Klink conflict, few prisoners could be taken, as the weapons used tended to destroy the losing craft in a battle. Since the alliance, of course, they're not prisoners, they're rescued personnel who are immediately repatriated (at least, officially... ).
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
TOS movie era? Out-of-universe, it was meant as a way to make things dramatic by saying that the enemies have no interest in leaving you alive. In-universe it makes more sense as Kirk reminding the crew that the Klingons have no qualms against killing their enemies. It's not that he's expecting his crew to get exterminated if they lose, but that most of them would get killed before the Klingons even thought about prisoners.
Given that the Orions are now mixed into the empire, it's really hard to say where captured Federation officers end up. You might end up mining dilithium... or you might get tossed into Hassan's gladiatorial ring. Maybe even sold to a race the Federation has no diplomatic contact with.
Comments
Eh, did we fight the same Iconian War?
The Heralds attacked the surface of New Romulus and, of course, destroyed 'old' Romulus. The first thing lost besides the Romulan homeworld was a Federation starbase. All other attacks (especially those on the Spheres) had as many Federation ships as Klingon ones.
The only thing the Klingons did that the other members of the Alliance did not, was leading and taking the initiative for a infiltration mission. And I guess I don't need to remind anyone what great a success that mission was
Which would in fact fulfill Larry Niven's law of time travel: In any universe where intentional time travel is possible, it won't happen because eventually somebody is going to travel back in time and kill its inventor before he does it so they can think straight again. That I would pay to see.
One of my favorite scenes in all of DS9.
Oh please God no. Novelverse Super-Dax is the most stereotypically Mary Sue captain in the entire Star Trek EU.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That's a very good post captain3, and I commend and respect you for it. All the thoughts I was going to write down, you've already covered. This is what's wrong with J'mpok, a symptom of a larger problem with the Empire.
It struck me pretty hard during the Klingon 1-10 level missions when our Captain and his/her crew get dragged into a dispute between the House of Martok and the House of Torg. Even though the Empire was at war with the Federation at the time we ended up killing at least as many fellow Klingons as we did Starfleet Officers, whittling down warriors who could have been used in the front lines. Heck, we lost two experienced officers in just becoming Captain!
You'll get no argument from me, I hate time travel.
I also do wish they'd have shown in game just how the Nakhul of the 31st century got their star back. Annorax learned his lesson, and because he did, no one else benefited from it.
It's so beautiful. From a writing standpoint, she condensed the preceding what? Decade of TNG era storytelling about the Klingon empire into a minute and thirty conversation.
Everything she said wasn't just things we'd heard about, but things we'd seen and watched Worf go through. His father's name being dragged through the mud, the killer going Scot free and his honor remaining untainted, and him not even getting much of his proper respect for being the genuine article. Instead any respect he got from his people was usually them trying to bribe him to support them, like a backroom Ferengi.
Then I suppose I am fortunate not to have read it. Though as a ship man myself I first heard about it through the arrival of the Vesta class. I'm not a fan of the novelverse, not Destiny, the Caeliar origin of the Borg, Borg Supercubes (which makes the Borg sound like Bond Villains), Seven hacking a Doomsday Machine, just no.
But the concept of shy little Ezri finding her grounding and becoming a kick TRIBBLE captain of a new experimental bleeding edge starship? I'm down for that.
Most kind.
A lot of people knock Star Trek Discovery for the changes they made visually (myself counted strongly among them) but I will give them great credit for how they depicted the nakedly chaotic Klingon feudalism. As soon as they lost a strong unifying leader they carried on with the war that none of them were previously interested in and didn't even try to do anything useful, just mindlessly slaughtering like they were going for some kind of interstellar massacre high score.
There has to be a saying somewhere that says, "Klingons are never too focused on a common enemy, to keep them from taking the time to kill one another."
And because of those early missions both House of Martok and House of Torg lost their heirs. And Torg's discommendation aside, that's Empire less power, less warriors for future causes. Perhaps even the future extinction of their houses.
J'mpok is the worst type of Klingon. The type who doesn't actually believe in all this talk about Klingon strength, and only truly believes the empire will be safe, once they've conquered everyone else. And that conquest can proceed by hook or by crook. Even Worf, as honorable as he is pointed out that, "In war, there is nothing more honorable than victory. "
Heh, seriously though, I have often pondered what the timeline looked like in Terminator BEFORE time travel was invented. Obviously, John Conner wasn't leader of the Resistance, but who was?
Similarly, the past in Star Trek is tainted by time travel. We have no idea what it looked like originally. I mean, Spock had HIMSELF as one of his teachers growing up.... More so than the guy who's an actual demi-god?
My character Tsin'xing
Or....
It's more like I have bigger fish to fry, such as expansion or there's another, more immediate menace or greater glory coming their way.
Yeah, but that's exactly it, though. In DS9 we have this young ensign fresh out of the Academy and working on her certification as a ship's counselor, who is suddenly thrown into the deep end because she's the only Trill available, and constantly struggles with how does she distinguish her own identity from memories of a dozen people she's never even heard of. And then in the novels suddenly she decides she's not important enough, flips to command track because apparently the only worthwhile course for a main cast member in Star Trek is starship command, then -- and this is the really fun part -- inherits command of her ship during a Borg attack and becomes this hypercompetent CO who gets there faster and does everything better than anyone else in the fleet to the point where I've joked that Novel!Ezri is secretly a STO player character (because her storyline after "What You Leave Behind" is basically the Fed tutorial and leveling missions in a nutshell). Hence, Super-Dax.
And they broke up her and Julian so they could ship him with Faith Salie's character from the Jack Pack.
(Doesn't help that when she previously turned up in a STO blog, they wrote her WRT a group of Klingons like she was Jadzia instead of Ezri.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Klingons swoop in, as heroes, and then has the upperhand/leverage on Starfleet?
Not very honourable, but maybe he's slipping in that department.
Then again, maybe almost being assassinated during the last major Alliance outing gave him cold feet.
The Klingons live in past glories and they are not so stable internally politically. They're only delaying the inevitable.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Really? Wow. I mean on the one hand I can understand Ezri getting fully acclimated to the symbiont and drawing on Dax's lifetime of experience to mature more rapidly. But her basically shifting her entire persona by deciding she's not important enough (really?) that's certainly a character...alteration (I'm trying to be charitable). I mean she's a psychiatrist knowing herself and having confidence in who she is with all those Daxes in her head, was a major part of her journey. It was her journey. I mean I can understand her ending up in the command chair and then getting a taste for it like Beverly and Deanna did, but you're describing....a mid-life crisis that works out ok.
I'm on the fence about that though, cause I actually liked Sarina a lot with Julian. It was an adorable relationship.
But I mean, Bashir and Dax is like Loxley and Bagel, you can't miss.
That's perfectly in line with J'Mpok as displayed. Part of the reason he brought Martok down may have been to see if he knew about such a thing, verifying that he didn't, he plays it close to the chest.
Martok can then go off, get himself killed along with other warriors who think like him or would follow him, and then when they're all dead J'mpok had no further problems from challengers and gets rid of his nemesis without even raising a finger. Shrewd. Treacherous and deceitful on a level that would give a Romulan Imperial an erection, but definitely shrewd.
Especially when they actively suppress new ideas and different frames of thinking. A genius scientist like Kurak gets no respect, no medical profession to speak of, and the only art is art that glorifies past battles or new battles. It's a one track mind civilization.
You could say the same thing about the Ferengi except business and economics thrives on diversification. Even if the Ferengi only believe in commerce, commerce is something that can keep a civilization going for a long time since commerce provides for other sectors of life. Even their religion and spirituality is centered around it. Commerce unlike war is constructive rather than destructive. Commerce allows for the existence of other civilizations.
Humanity was warlike until they nearly wiped themselves out due to wars, they adapted and instead of living in the past, they moved forward (granted that the Vulcans gently nudged them on). That said, the human civilization by the time of the 25th century is one of the strongest and most unpredictable.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Whereas Martok, original flavor, is a common-born professional soldier with a track record of competence if not necessarily brilliance as a manager (which is really what a general in any military organization is).
Then of course, there's Worf.
Only in moderation. Unchecked, it stifles innovation from company heads using whatever means they can get away with to eliminate competitors and pad their bottom lines (see repealing net neutrality), and leads to greater instability by stifling social mobility.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It seemed to be implied in that Enterprise episode where Archer was being tried by a Klingon court that the Empire has been in decline since before even that era. It suggests that Klingon culture was perhaps different before the rise of the warrior caste. I might have liked to seen early Klingon culture. As to looking toward the future I do wonder how they accept joining the Federation. Seems like it would take some kind of revolution or civil war as other posters have said.
One thing I wrote in an upcoming fanfic chapter was a banned Klingon political party called qaStaHvIS nItebHa' Qap HoS (literally "Strength in Working Together"), which is basically a Klingon Marxist group. They end up getting a safe haven on the Federation side of the border where their ideas can presumably percolate across.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
For that matter, that helps explain the Federation ambassador at the Temporal Accords being a Klingon in full regalia; what, are they supposed to leave defense of the entire galaxy to the Feds, who are (in a Klingon view) pretty much rubbish at fighting? That just leaves wars continually washing up against the Empire's doorstep. In alliance with Feds, though, they can stay out there on the front lines, showing those fools how it's done. They don't have to soften to Feddie-bear levels - the Feds are tied by their own words into respecting cultural differences. (Of course, as Quark observed, they're more insidious than that - and, like root beer, once you've tasted enough of Federation standards, you start to like them.
My character Tsin'xing
I think there's a key difference between Klingons and humans in war.
Humans believe in saving lives and preserving people.
Klingons believe with religious fervor that there is nothing better than dying in battle.
Fortunately, humans are incredibly adaptable.
I think that was a significant part of the rise of the warrior caste Quv, took primacy because it's faster and flashier to raise your family's Quv in battle than it is to showcase your Batlh over time by being a Klingon of integrity and principle. The victory of the loud over the substantive.
Gowron had gone bad before that. Right after Redemption he was rewriting the history books to erase Starfleet's involvement and assistance in his rise.
Of course, everything in moderation. Even the most beneficial thing can be poisoned by excess.
Reputation. EXCELLENT translation for Quv.
It was "Judgment" and Kolos all but stated outright that the shift happened within his lifetime, his parents were respected despite having purely intellectual roles his father a teacher and his mother a biologist, and they advised him to be a lawyer.
Discovery showed that a century later the Klingons weren't a threat at all because they were constantly fighting each other. T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell gave us the modern unified Klingon empire, but truthfully that was only a bandage. It didn't change the trajectory, it just slowed down the decline.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me. As in most societies, the elites are vastly outnumbered by the Klingons who get passed over and overlooked despite their jobs keeping the empire functioning. In that regard Martok could likely be won over to their cause considering how Kor treated him. While Worf would be an ideal leader for such a cause, or just a symbol, we'd need a young new hot shot Klingon one who can make it as a warrior, but sees the value in the movement's ideals. A true believer. A Damar if you will.
I've thought for a very long time that the Klingon psyche is completely warped in regard to the Hur'q. It's like they're an abuse survivor. The Hur'q were their first contact. Their first contact with alien life was a massive invasion force that conquered the proud Klingon people. They're still carrying around that scar; just like Martok. Their military isn't called the Klingon Imperial Fleet, it's the Klingon Defense Force. The Hur'q put the fear into them. When the Hur'q were gone they set out into the galaxy and conquered other people. That's not a simple lack of empathy. They were building buffer zones around themselves in case the Hur'q came back. Many Klingons have dreamed of facing the Hur'q. Everyone wants to fight the Boogey Man. The older warriors though like J'mpok are scared, because they know the history.
Conversely to your second point, the only powers that have ever truly staved off the Klingon Empire are the Romulans and the Federation. The idea that the Federation is rubbish at fighting isn't supported by the history. They don't like fighting, but as Quark also observed, it isn't wise to sleep on them. Take away their Holosuites, food, and safety for a prolonged period of time hew-mons can be just as vicious and bloodthirsty as any Klingon.
It seems most Klingons aren't equal to such a challenge.
My character Tsin'xing
Hmmm, what if this solution was stolen by Quark (most likely a paid agent/mercenary) to be bid off to the highest bidder) while J'mpok thinks it's safely stored away for the big masterstroke?
To borrow another concept from A Game of Thrones, "Do you still believe good commanders make good kings?" (Let's not beat around the bush, the Klingon Empire is for all intents and purposes an elective monarchy, with the Chancellor standing in for a king.)
This might be best to explain in terms of history. Martok was a good commander, but in Cryptic's version of events he proved a less-than-capable ruler in peacetime. The feud between him and J'mpok started over foreign policy towards the Federation and Gorn and escalated to the point where Martok lost his temper during a Council meeting and tried to discommendate him. The meeting where J'mpok killed him was actually an attempt to turn back the clock and avert civil war (which it did, but obviously not in the way Martok hoped). IOW, rather like Ulysses Grant, he's a good general but a poor statesman (the Grant Administration was horrifically corrupt), whereas J'mpok has proven to be a questionable war leader at best (reference putting Emperor Darwin Award and Zapp Kagran in charge of anything ever), but a reasonably good statesman.
(Which is something I dealt with in one of my other fics. Scroll down to A Matter of Honor, warnings for language and mild adult themes. #shamelessplug)
All of which does not change the fact that, in the short term, Gowron was a better choice than the other option(s) (I'm sure there were other candidates, but he and Duras were the front-runners to succeed K'mpec), and Martok was a better choice than Gowron. ETA: And it may play into what's going on in Kael's story: perhaps they're deciding to bury the hatchet and try to play to each other's strengths, let Martok be the general and J'mpok be the statesman.
Essentially, the Klingon Empire is a study in contradictions (as indeed are most societies). The culture worships war heroes, but it also fears them: since coups and mutinies are not just common but accepted means of advancement, an up-and-coming warrior is a threat to those above them, as we see with Gowron trying to pull an Uriah Gambit on Martok after Second Chin'toka (either Martok gets himself killed, or his reputation, quv, is ruined and no one would accept him if he did challenge Gowron). For real-world comparisons, you can look at the Roman Empire -- it's fair to say that Emperor Valentinian III doomed the Western Empire by murdering General Flavius Aetius after the latter's victory over Attila the Hun at the Catalaunian Plains, out of fear Aetius planned to overthrow him. Or you can look at many armies in the Arab world today, which often suffer from poor training, discipline, and morale in part because the kings and dictators they serve fear to allow their senior officers to become effective enough to mount a coup (they themselves often came to power that way). Which leads to inefficiency due to overcentralization of command-and-control (for fear that the regime may lose control of the army), which is compounded by classism (also present in the Klingon Empire, reference Kor initially blacklisting the common-born Martok from becoming an officer).
In contrast, the Federation may laud its heroes, but (like Western governments) it has a tradition of the military being subservient to the elected civilian government and the constitution that governs the government, rather than being a means by which the government gains and/or maintains its authority. Which doesn't mean it goes unchallenged, c.f. "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Humans on the galactic stage have been called on as neutral mediators (See Archer getting Vulcan and Andoria to sign a treaty in 2152). Klingons, not so much. They say that honor comes in victory but where's the honor in killing civilians and the use the of POWs as slave labor?
Come to think of it, what ever happened to Federation POWs captured by the Klingons and did the Klingons sign any agreements on the fair treatment of POWs?
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'm not even sure most Klingons are even aware of that challenge.
The accursed lobi crystal consortium.
Well, Martok was actually correct in the long term and J'mpok ended up leading a war that weakened both the Federation and the Empire while a much greater foe loomed in the shadows pleased at out our predictable progress. It's more of what people criticize Wakanda about. Leadership of a nation being decided via combat isn't that great when you have someone who will be a self destructive leader who is a better fighter.
As for Gowron it's interesting. I've seen it brought up on other blogs in recaps of TNG. They never actually solved the mystery of who poisoned K'mpec. Worf killed Duras for personal reasons, but the murder mystery was inconclusive. Gowron won the civil war and ended up Chancellor almost by default. For all we know though, he did poison K'mpec and was an honorless dog the whole time.
The Duras' main strike against them was their longstanding alliance with the Romulans and resulting treasonous actions. But that's when viewed from a Federation perspective. From the Klingon perspective though they had immense reputation, power, and were masters at navigating Klingon politics. They likely would've provided a more stable Klingon regime.
That said, they would've also certainly accelerated the deterioration of the Klingon cultural state and allied with the Dominion, so yeah Gowron was the better of two bad choices. Damn shame Worf never wanted the job.
The Klingon Empire is worse than that since their military isn't unified, but instead tribalized, each House maintaining their own private fleets that are pledged to the Empire. So each individual faction is its own military power. So in order to attain power you have to gain the loyalty of the individual houses.
That is a very good question.....one I have little doubt Starfleet and the Federation Council goes to great lengths to avoid answering, lest it cause public unrest. Between "The Final Reflection" (the Ur-document for the modern portrayal of Klingons), STO DOFF missions for the KDF, and the occasional movie and ST episodes.....I would say that fate was rather grim, and would violate Forum TOS to discuss in any detail. I wonder if there will be a "Truth and Reconciliation" committee set up when the Klingons join the Federation, where they have to account for each of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Federation citizens that fell into their hands over the centuries and were never heard from again.
I'm guessing.....not. It would make them look bad to have to admit just how many of their own people they had callously abandoned to a cruel fate, and worse, it would interfere with their current diplomacy and worse than that....their political career. The needs of the Few outweigh those of the Many, or the One.
uhhhh..... Mackenzie Calhoun has been in the game since launch. have you ever read a New Frontier novel?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I don't think the Empire uses POWs as bargaining chips, based in part on an exchange in TWoK, at the end of the Kobayashi Maru:
SAAVIK: Recommendations, Admiral?
KIRK: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.
Now, we know this isn't entirely accurate - but Kirk seemed to honestly believe this. This would tend to indicate that prisoners taken during that era would have been properly interrogated, then either been useless or been offered the choice of languishing in prison or serving the Empire, with repatriation not being one of the options.
During the most recent Fed/Klink conflict, few prisoners could be taken, as the weapons used tended to destroy the losing craft in a battle. Since the alliance, of course, they're not prisoners, they're rescued personnel who are immediately repatriated (at least, officially...
Given that the Orions are now mixed into the empire, it's really hard to say where captured Federation officers end up. You might end up mining dilithium... or you might get tossed into Hassan's gladiatorial ring. Maybe even sold to a race the Federation has no diplomatic contact with.
My character Tsin'xing