Shadow... it is a Fortress. When it arrives, the screen goes white, and when it fades... there's the Fortress. It doesn't move. It just appears. Its the Dreadnaught we actually FIGHT at the end you're thinking about.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
i guarantee you lucas was probably thinking of none of that when he made the death star a sphere...he likely did it purely because he wanted something that could be mistaken for a moon
Right. Movies are made to look cool. So are video games. If any actual numbers are mentioned, odds are extremely high the writers just made it up on the spot.
The Death Star was made to look like a moon so the characters could mistake it for one. The second Death Star was made much larger than the first one not because there was any practical need to, but because the script called for them to fly whole ships up the tailpipe they shot the torpedoes in the first time.
Just like that, the real reason the Fortress is the size it is just so that we can comfortably fly our effing dreadnoughts inside it.
Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
^^ Agreed on all counts!
Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
The reason I believe there is at least catastrophic damage to the vessel is the final sequence after we blow the main power core --secondary explosions start rippling through the thing and we're given a time limit to get the hell out of there. At least in some versions, if you don't get out in time you blow up and have to respawn. And in at least some versions, you see the vessel from outside with the skin blistering and bubbling and sprouting fire from countless spots across the surface. We do know it doesn't all go up in one big boom, which would probably be supernova-like in intensity, because we aren't instructed to warp out and away to avoid such a wave of destruction and that the Dyson Sphere it is inside of in some versions of the mission doesn't end up with a large percentage of its interior surface scorched into ash with all surface structures obliterated.
That lack of final complete explosion doesn't mean the damage isn't horrifically, catastrophically bad. The "riddled with explosions" animation sequence makes it pretty clear it's being consumed from within by a catastrophic firestorm of multiple chain explosions caused by the destruction of the power core. It looks devastatingly bad, and combined with the dialogue about having destroyed it the implication is the thing is a gutted, burned out hulk when we're finished with it.
We don't really see why our ships blow up if we don't get out in time though. Given that the Voth can disable our ships whenever they want (which for some reason worked in that one episode just before the Undine showed up, while it doesn't work in the Battlezone) it may well be caused by something that blows up on the inside of the ship, some specific component which causes major damage to our hulls - or some side effect of the damage that isn't that serious to a Fortress of that size but which is sufficient to destroy our much smaller and more primitive ships.
Or it's simply to add something interesting to the mission.
It is true that there are many explosions, but those could simply be power conduits blowing up. Given that the power core is the only seriously important thing we destroy, I doubt it could be much else.
There is nothing that links our actions with what happens so the explosions are likely just for show. I know, that's an out-of-universe explanation but we lack any convincing in-universe explanation.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
^^ Agreed on all counts!
Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
Just remember, a species centuries more advanced than would look 'magicial' like we would look magical to a caveman, or even to someone from 1,000 years ago.
And in the process showed again his lack of general knowledge as there are multiple non-sperical moons in our own solar system.
True, but they're nowhere near as big as the Death Star. The most recent number I'm aware of is 160 km diameter for DS1, 80 km radius. Phobos (one of those irregular moons) is only 11.2 km in radius on average. Funny thing about gravity, it tends to force things into spherical shapes when they get massive enough.
Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
^^ Agreed on all counts!
Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
Just remember, a species centuries more advanced than would look 'magicial' like we would look magical to a caveman, or even to someone from 1,000 years ago.
You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.* Great example? Dyson spheres. It's been calculated that to build a solid sphere around a G2V star (e.g. Sol) would require the cannibalization of every object in the entire star system just to get enough mass to work with. And a lot of that mass will be materials you can't use: there's fun elements like mercury and gallium that will melt at room temperature or slightly above and do wacky things when they come into contact with "normal" metals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaMWxLCGY0U
* Especially in a society like the Voth that actively clamps down on independent thinkers and innovators on the off-chance they might come up with something against Doctrine.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i guarantee you lucas was probably thinking of none of that when he made the death star a sphere...he likely did it purely because he wanted something that could be mistaken for a moon
Right. Movies are made to look cool. So are video games. If any actual numbers are mentioned, odds are extremely high the writers just made it up on the spot.
The Death Star was made to look like a moon so the characters could mistake it for one. The second Death Star was made much larger than the first one not because there was any practical need to, but because the script called for them to fly whole ships up the tailpipe they shot the torpedoes in the first time.
Just like that, the real reason the Fortress is the size it is just so that we can comfortably fly our effing dreadnoughts inside it.
You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.
But artistic licence does. Fiction writers don't need to resolve practical engineering and logistical problems, they can just write them away...or ignore them.
You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.
But artistic licence does. Fiction writers don't need to resolve practical engineering and logistical problems, they can just write them away...or ignore them.
Well, obviously. That comment was more directed at smokebailey specifically: she has this habit of claiming these things are possible in real life (not fiction) and that us not knowing how to do them doesn't mean they aren't, even or perhaps especially when they violate basic laws of physics.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The reason I believe there is at least catastrophic damage to the vessel is the final sequence after we blow the main power core --secondary explosions start rippling through the thing and we're given a time limit to get the hell out of there. At least in some versions, if you don't get out in time you blow up and have to respawn. And in at least some versions, you see the vessel from outside with the skin blistering and bubbling and sprouting fire from countless spots across the surface. We do know it doesn't all go up in one big boom, which would probably be supernova-like in intensity, because we aren't instructed to warp out and away to avoid such a wave of destruction and that the Dyson Sphere it is inside of in some versions of the mission doesn't end up with a large percentage of its interior surface scorched into ash with all surface structures obliterated.
That lack of final complete explosion doesn't mean the damage isn't horrifically, catastrophically bad. The "riddled with explosions" animation sequence makes it pretty clear it's being consumed from within by a catastrophic firestorm of multiple chain explosions caused by the destruction of the power core. It looks devastatingly bad, and combined with the dialogue about having destroyed it the implication is the thing is a gutted, burned out hulk when we're finished with it.
We don't really see why our ships blow up if we don't get out in time though. Given that the Voth can disable our ships whenever they want (which for some reason worked in that one episode just before the Undine showed up, while it doesn't work in the Battlezone) it may well be caused by something that blows up on the inside of the ship, some specific component which causes major damage to our hulls - or some side effect of the damage that isn't that serious to a Fortress of that size but which is sufficient to destroy our much smaller and more primitive ships.
Or it's simply to add something interesting to the mission.
It is true that there are many explosions, but those could simply be power conduits blowing up. Given that the power core is the only seriously important thing we destroy, I doubt it could be much else.
There is nothing that links our actions with what happens so the explosions are likely just for show. I know, that's an out-of-universe explanation but we lack any convincing in-universe explanation.
The ability to remotely TRIBBLE with ship systems is seen in other places in Star Trek, and usually only works once - once the target's gotten a chance to figure out what you did, they implement some arbitrary countermeasure and it never works again.
As for what happens to us if we don't get out: We're basically surfing down the spillway right after we blew the dam. The path of least resistance is right behind us.
And in the process showed again his lack of general knowledge as there are multiple non-sperical moons in our own solar system.
True, but they're nowhere near as big as the Death Star. The most recent number I'm aware of is 160 km diameter for DS1, 80 km radius. Phobos (one of those irregular moons) is only 11.2 km in radius on average. Funny thing about gravity, it tends to force things into spherical shapes when they get massive enough.
Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
^^ Agreed on all counts!
Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
Just remember, a species centuries more advanced than would look 'magicial' like we would look magical to a caveman, or even to someone from 1,000 years ago.
You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.
Yeah. Except that's not what she said at all. Instead she referred to Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law, which says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In that sense, smokebailey is absolutely right: just because we may have a hard time fathoming how the Voth can build something so big and vast, doesn't mean it can't be done. I dunno, maybe they're siphoning the required matter from a parallel universe? Who knows!? Her point simply was, that just because *our* Engineers would be stumped on how to do so, doesn't mean there can't be a more technologically advanced race out there to whom these, to us seemingly unsurmountable, obstacles are far less challenging. And to us, indeed, their feat might well appear as 'magic.' And that's a far stretch for saying smokebailey used "magical thinking."
And also, keep in mind, that all which is required for good SciFi is that it can elicit a suspension of disbelief. It doesn't all have to be possible, in the absolute, just so long as we can believe it long enough to enjoy the show.
And in the process showed again his lack of general knowledge as there are multiple non-sperical moons in our own solar system.
True, but they're nowhere near as big as the Death Star. The most recent number I'm aware of is 160 km diameter for DS1, 80 km radius. Phobos (one of those irregular moons) is only 11.2 km in radius on average. Funny thing about gravity, it tends to force things into spherical shapes when they get massive enough.
Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
^^ Agreed on all counts!
Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
Just remember, a species centuries more advanced than would look 'magicial' like we would look magical to a caveman, or even to someone from 1,000 years ago.
You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.
Yeah. Except that's not what she said at all. Instead she referred to Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law, which says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In that sense, smokebailey is absolutely right: just because we may have a hard time fathoming how the Voth can build something so big and vast, doesn't mean it can't be done. I dunno, maybe they're siphoning the required matter from a parallel universe? Who knows!? Her point simply was, that just because *our* Engineers would be stumped on how to do so, doesn't mean there can't be a more technologically advanced race out there to whom these, to us seemingly unsurmountable, obstacles are far less challenging. And to us, indeed, their feat might well appear as 'magic.' And that's a far stretch for saying smokebailey used "magical thinking."
And also, keep in mind, that all which is required for good SciFi is that it can elicit a suspension of disbelief. It doesn't all have to be possible, in the absolute, just so long as we can believe it long enough to enjoy the show.
BINGO! A species that is a few hundred years ahead of us can look 'magical', so imagine a species a thousand...or a million years ahead of us, it will be looking like magic, and make scientist and engineers go, "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!"
Little trivia...in WW2, when allied forces had bases on various islands, the local natives, who were living in primitive tribal ways, saw airplanes, and these strange, light skinned men come out of them, and gave them food, water and medicines. Decades later, after the allies lift....and people visited these islands, the natives actually build mock ups of the air planes....essentially shrines and they worshiped the planes, as if they were divine in origin. I heard some accounts of native indigenous americans doing similar in the early days of aviation.
One of my fav Trek folks, Mr. Drexler, uses the same school of thought when he designed the Enterprise J, my second fav ship in Trek. He even made a point how LAUGHABLE that scene in the trailer of Trek 2009 was, seeing all those sweaty guys in boiler suits, and using WELDERS to put together the Enterprise....it was like, "JJ thinks building methods after 1950 is going to remain the same".
And Meimei...we are a rather young race, especially in comparison to the neighboring stars near us, let alone the universe itself...I feel that we, as a species, need to stop seeing ourselves as so superior and the highest form of intelligence...and that anyone else out there would be either BELOW us, or MAYBE equal to us...for LORD FORBID there is someone out there that would make our current science look like nothing and our latest tech look like prehistoric junk. I think we need to adopt a sense of modesty....like the old saying goes, pride com meth before a fall.
> @meimeitoo said:
> starswordc wrote: »
>
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> And in the process showed again his lack of general knowledge as there are multiple non-sperical moons in our own solar system.
>
>
>
>
> True, but they're nowhere near as big as the Death Star. The most recent number I'm aware of is 160 km diameter for DS1, 80 km radius. Phobos (one of those irregular moons) is only 11.2 km in radius on average. Funny thing about gravity, it tends to force things into spherical shapes when they get massive enough.
> smokebailey wrote: »
>
> meimeitoo wrote: »
>
> fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »
>
> Well, for all we know they have a huge conveyor belt that could produce one of those Fortresses in a month if necessary. We just don't know.
>
> Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
> If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
>
> Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
>
> The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
>
> They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
>
>
>
>
>
> ^^ Agreed on all counts!
>
> Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
>
>
>
>
> Just remember, a species centuries more advanced than would look 'magicial' like we would look magical to a caveman, or even to someone from 1,000 years ago.
>
>
>
> You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yeah. Except that's not what she said at all. Instead she referred to Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law, which says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In that sense, smokebailey is absolutely right: just because we may have a hard time fathoming how the Voth can build something so big and vast, doesn't mean it can't be done. I dunno, maybe they're siphoning the required matter from a parallel universe? Who knows!? Her point simply was, that just because *our* Engineers would be stumped on how to do so, doesn't mean there can't be a more technologically advanced race out there to whom these, to us seemingly unsurmountable, obstacles are far less challenging. And to us, indeed, their feat might well appear as 'magic.' And that's a far stretch for saying smokebailey used "magical thinking."
>
> And also, keep in mind, that all which is required for good SciFi is that it can elicit a suspension of disbelief. It doesn't all have to be possible, in the absolute, just so long as we can believe it long enough to enjoy the show.
Except thats not what smoke was saying, smoke was claiming that various things which our present understanding says is impossible in real life are possible in real life. Had nothing to do with the Voth or even STO.
No....what I said was that we don't know everything....that one thing we'd say is impossible today can be totally possible tomorrow.
And Meimei is right....heck....NASA Brookings report said that when (and it said when, not if) that the people to be most devastated, upon actual contact with alien life (or at least proof, such as ruins or discarded technology), it would be engineers and scientists, not so much religious groups.
When I fly down the Voth fortress trench, all I'm grateful for is the fact for gameplay it is remarkably underarmed - in 'reality' each one of those nodes we shoot at would likely be tossing out torpedos or beams if not both
For example DS9 has 48 phaser arrays (rotary mounts); 36 phaser emitters (stationary mounts); 3 phaser emitters (sliding mounts); 48+ torpedo launchers with 5,000+ photon torpedoes ready to go
considering how many DS9s could fit in the fortress; we should be facing a LOT more firepower than we do (not that I'm complaining; I like to live after all)
As to how the fortress was made, the only way I could think of is they have a huge replicator type system secreted someplace; chewing up a random planet via disintegration then subatomic reconfiguration or its a space hulk type thing - multiple ships (be it of Voth or non Voth origin) mashed together over eons and rebuilt into the fortress - a true generation ship
When I fly down the Voth fortress trench, all I'm grateful for is the fact for gameplay it is remarkably underarmed - in 'reality' each one of those nodes we shoot at would likely be tossing out torpedos or beams if not both
For example DS9 has 48 phaser arrays (rotary mounts); 36 phaser emitters (stationary mounts); 3 phaser emitters (sliding mounts); 48+ torpedo launchers with 5,000+ photon torpedoes ready to go
considering how many DS9s could fit in the fortress; we should be facing a LOT more firepower than we do (not that I'm complaining; I like to live after all)
As to how the fortress was made, the only way I could think of is they have a huge replicator type system secreted someplace; chewing up a random planet via disintegration then subatomic reconfiguration or its a space hulk type thing - multiple ships (be it of Voth or non Voth origin) mashed together over eons and rebuilt into the fortress - a true generation ship
Well, DS9 was designed by the Cardassians, quite the militant species. The average Federation station is probably less heavily armed. So I'm not sure DS9 is the best station to compare the fortress to - as it was likely an example of a station that was defended and equipped with military technology more than the average facility.
It seems that the fortress does have some defenses too - at the beginning of the mission, entire ships blow up in mere seconds seemingly just because they get too close to it. No idea why it stops, but there are definitely some defence mechanisms that are quite capable of taking down attackers.
Of course they're no match for ships equipped with hero plot like the player's ships, but many things are not prepared for that
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Shadow's right. Those weapons on DS9... 99% of them are of Federation origin. DS9 wasn't built to be a front line starbase. She started life as an Ore Processing Station. Nothing remotely military about her other than the fact the Cardassians built her.
Nor class stations are not meant to be high end military bases. The only reason DS9 was so successful was because of Federation modification and reenforcement due to her strategic location.
The fact that the Voth fortress isn't well armed, is likely because they are a very peaceful and non-barbaric species then
Neither are the Vulcans, but we saw them use some pretty effective Shock and Awe tactics in the 22nd Century.
Barbaric? No. But potentially aggressive? Yes.
We've seen how many of their higher ups view anything that challenges their Doctrine. And in game they're a tough opponent that favors more defensive tactics that are still very powerful on the attack.
The fact that the Voth fortress isn't well armed, is likely because they are a very peaceful and non-barbaric species then
Neither are the Vulcans, but we saw them use some pretty effective Shock and Awe tactics in the 22nd Century.
Barbaric? No. But potentially aggressive? Yes.
We've seen how many of their higher ups view anything that challenges their Doctrine. And in game they're a tough opponent that favors more defensive tactics that are still very powerful on the attack.
Compared to the barbaric and primitive Federation, our weapons may seem powerful. They are in fact very sophisticated so they will never actually hurt anyone, but rather send them to a special dimension where they can reflect on their sins until they are given the option to return and respawn into this reality.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Comments
That's a Fortress in the background.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Let's assume that the development of a Federation ship probably takes somewhere close to a year or at least a few months.
If the Fortress is as big as somewhere close to 25 Borg cubes, then it would be around 75 kilometers, or about a thousand Enterprise E's.
Construction of this thing would have taken at least decades, probably centuries. If we also assume similar construction methods of course, which isn't a reasonable assumption as they would never have started the construction if it had taken that long. Even a species that lives longer, won't build something like that if it takes many generations to complete, not in the case of military material (even non-military buildings like the Sagrada Familia have taken only a few generations to complete).
The very fact that they were able to build something like the Fortress, would lead me to think that they are able to repair it and at least quickly reproduce its components. Just like the Federation would not use warp cores that they can't reproduce in the event one is lost, the Voth wouldn't build fortresses that they can't repair. So I'm not all that sure that it would take a long time to replace or repair any of the damage done to it.
They probably do have more than one, that is likely true. Being able to construct something like the fortress, should allow for producing more than one.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
The Death Star was made to look like a moon so the characters could mistake it for one. The second Death Star was made much larger than the first one not because there was any practical need to, but because the script called for them to fly whole ships up the tailpipe they shot the torpedoes in the first time.
Just like that, the real reason the Fortress is the size it is just so that we can comfortably fly our effing dreadnoughts inside it.
^^ Agreed on all counts!
Also, where do they get that much materials to be build ships like that?! And the turn-rate on such a ship must be dismal! You're basically sitting duck, against pretty much anything that attacks you. Unless it were a vessel an entire population is living in, permanently, for a virtually empty warship, it's kind of a useless brick (and a costly one at that).
We don't really see why our ships blow up if we don't get out in time though. Given that the Voth can disable our ships whenever they want (which for some reason worked in that one episode just before the Undine showed up, while it doesn't work in the Battlezone) it may well be caused by something that blows up on the inside of the ship, some specific component which causes major damage to our hulls - or some side effect of the damage that isn't that serious to a Fortress of that size but which is sufficient to destroy our much smaller and more primitive ships.
Or it's simply to add something interesting to the mission.
It is true that there are many explosions, but those could simply be power conduits blowing up. Given that the power core is the only seriously important thing we destroy, I doubt it could be much else.
There is nothing that links our actions with what happens so the explosions are likely just for show. I know, that's an out-of-universe explanation but we lack any convincing in-universe explanation.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
We don't know that much about the Voth, unfortunately. And I think it's perfectly fine if I counter other people's assumptions with my own
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Just remember, a species centuries more advanced than would look 'magicial' like we would look magical to a caveman, or even to someone from 1,000 years ago.
True, but they're nowhere near as big as the Death Star. The most recent number I'm aware of is 160 km diameter for DS1, 80 km radius. Phobos (one of those irregular moons) is only 11.2 km in radius on average. Funny thing about gravity, it tends to force things into spherical shapes when they get massive enough.
You can smoke as much magic vegetable du jour as you like, but "magical thinking" and "willpower" don't resolve practical engineering and logistical problems.* Great example? Dyson spheres. It's been calculated that to build a solid sphere around a G2V star (e.g. Sol) would require the cannibalization of every object in the entire star system just to get enough mass to work with. And a lot of that mass will be materials you can't use: there's fun elements like mercury and gallium that will melt at room temperature or slightly above and do wacky things when they come into contact with "normal" metals.
* Especially in a society like the Voth that actively clamps down on independent thinkers and innovators on the off-chance they might come up with something against Doctrine.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
and that's why artistic depictions of both the event horizon and singularity of black holes are always spherical
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing
Well, obviously. That comment was more directed at smokebailey specifically: she has this habit of claiming these things are possible in real life (not fiction) and that us not knowing how to do them doesn't mean they aren't, even or perhaps especially when they violate basic laws of physics.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The ability to remotely TRIBBLE with ship systems is seen in other places in Star Trek, and usually only works once - once the target's gotten a chance to figure out what you did, they implement some arbitrary countermeasure and it never works again.
As for what happens to us if we don't get out: We're basically surfing down the spillway right after we blew the dam. The path of least resistance is right behind us.
Yeah. Except that's not what she said at all. Instead she referred to Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law, which says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In that sense, smokebailey is absolutely right: just because we may have a hard time fathoming how the Voth can build something so big and vast, doesn't mean it can't be done. I dunno, maybe they're siphoning the required matter from a parallel universe? Who knows!? Her point simply was, that just because *our* Engineers would be stumped on how to do so, doesn't mean there can't be a more technologically advanced race out there to whom these, to us seemingly unsurmountable, obstacles are far less challenging. And to us, indeed, their feat might well appear as 'magic.' And that's a far stretch for saying smokebailey used "magical thinking."
And also, keep in mind, that all which is required for good SciFi is that it can elicit a suspension of disbelief. It doesn't all have to be possible, in the absolute, just so long as we can believe it long enough to enjoy the show.
BINGO! A species that is a few hundred years ahead of us can look 'magical', so imagine a species a thousand...or a million years ahead of us, it will be looking like magic, and make scientist and engineers go, "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!"
Little trivia...in WW2, when allied forces had bases on various islands, the local natives, who were living in primitive tribal ways, saw airplanes, and these strange, light skinned men come out of them, and gave them food, water and medicines. Decades later, after the allies lift....and people visited these islands, the natives actually build mock ups of the air planes....essentially shrines and they worshiped the planes, as if they were divine in origin. I heard some accounts of native indigenous americans doing similar in the early days of aviation.
One of my fav Trek folks, Mr. Drexler, uses the same school of thought when he designed the Enterprise J, my second fav ship in Trek. He even made a point how LAUGHABLE that scene in the trailer of Trek 2009 was, seeing all those sweaty guys in boiler suits, and using WELDERS to put together the Enterprise....it was like, "JJ thinks building methods after 1950 is going to remain the same".
And Meimei...we are a rather young race, especially in comparison to the neighboring stars near us, let alone the universe itself...I feel that we, as a species, need to stop seeing ourselves as so superior and the highest form of intelligence...and that anyone else out there would be either BELOW us, or MAYBE equal to us...for LORD FORBID there is someone out there that would make our current science look like nothing and our latest tech look like prehistoric junk. I think we need to adopt a sense of modesty....like the old saying goes, pride com meth before a fall.
No....what I said was that we don't know everything....that one thing we'd say is impossible today can be totally possible tomorrow.
And Meimei is right....heck....NASA Brookings report said that when (and it said when, not if) that the people to be most devastated, upon actual contact with alien life (or at least proof, such as ruins or discarded technology), it would be engineers and scientists, not so much religious groups.
For example DS9 has 48 phaser arrays (rotary mounts); 36 phaser emitters (stationary mounts); 3 phaser emitters (sliding mounts); 48+ torpedo launchers with 5,000+ photon torpedoes ready to go
considering how many DS9s could fit in the fortress; we should be facing a LOT more firepower than we do (not that I'm complaining; I like to live after all)
As to how the fortress was made, the only way I could think of is they have a huge replicator type system secreted someplace; chewing up a random planet via disintegration then subatomic reconfiguration or its a space hulk type thing - multiple ships (be it of Voth or non Voth origin) mashed together over eons and rebuilt into the fortress - a true generation ship
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Well, DS9 was designed by the Cardassians, quite the militant species. The average Federation station is probably less heavily armed. So I'm not sure DS9 is the best station to compare the fortress to - as it was likely an example of a station that was defended and equipped with military technology more than the average facility.
It seems that the fortress does have some defenses too - at the beginning of the mission, entire ships blow up in mere seconds seemingly just because they get too close to it. No idea why it stops, but there are definitely some defence mechanisms that are quite capable of taking down attackers.
Of course they're no match for ships equipped with hero plot like the player's ships, but many things are not prepared for that
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Nor class stations are not meant to be high end military bases. The only reason DS9 was so successful was because of Federation modification and reenforcement due to her strategic location.
The fact that the Voth fortress isn't well armed, is likely because they are a very peaceful and non-barbaric species then
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Neither are the Vulcans, but we saw them use some pretty effective Shock and Awe tactics in the 22nd Century.
Barbaric? No. But potentially aggressive? Yes.
We've seen how many of their higher ups view anything that challenges their Doctrine. And in game they're a tough opponent that favors more defensive tactics that are still very powerful on the attack.
Compared to the barbaric and primitive Federation, our weapons may seem powerful. They are in fact very sophisticated so they will never actually hurt anyone, but rather send them to a special dimension where they can reflect on their sins until they are given the option to return and respawn into this reality.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.