Personally I think people are overthinking the genocide part of this. We are playing from their perspective. What's done is done. No changing that but in the end the Tzenkethi were right. These eggs are a threat. How they handled it is questionable but what other choice is there? If the KDF knew what was coming they would have been there right with the Tzenkethi.
I wouldn't call it "overthinking", quite the opposite actually. While some of what you say may be true from a story POV (I doubt the "no choice" though) I wouldn't want it in my gaming experience. This has nothing to do with "thinking" whatsoever, but with my personal feeling of it being inappropriate to do as a player.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
The autofire has always been there BUT the new implementation of it meant that the ship started firing simply by getting into range.
I had to neither target anything nor tickle the spacebar to activate the weapons they just went ballistic.
Most of my ships use autofire for the beams and NONE decided to instigate combat when I flew into range before this updated feature landed.
KDF did meander down the road with the great tribble hunts of olden days, I vaguely remember an episode with piles of the furballs to murder in STO, but they had the honour and sense to know that simply nuking a planet from orbit was overkill.
No changing that but in the end the Tzenkethi were right. These eggs are a threat.
True and...
How they handled it is questionable but what other choice is there? If the KDF knew what was coming they would have been there right with the Tzenkethi.
...
W-wha... WHAT?!
Like, seriously? Just questionable? What other choice?
Well, I dunno...how about, you know, TELLING the rest of the galaxy and providing proof, which they had? And not ticking off everyone by committing genocide against several species in the process and refusing to justify their actions?
Heck, even silently blockading planets would be a much less insane plan than exterminating everything indiscriminately.
Ability tray's were locked for me while flying/running around as Neth Parr. Don't know if that's a bug or if it's intentional, but it's a pain in the backside either way.
(If it's intentional, we've had pre-built ships before with the Dyson and Obelisk as examples, but this is just annoyingly stupid and unnecessary)
Also had a glitch on Draconis where the 'bomb team' didn't move from the start area of the mission. When it came time for me to 'order them to begin', I went back to the start area to see if I could nudge them or something and they just warped straight to the egg room...
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
The autofire has always been there BUT the new implementation of it meant that the ship started firing simply by getting into range.
I had to neither target anything nor tickle the spacebar to activate the weapons they just went ballistic.
Didn't notice that, however, there is also a setup for how autofire behaves. If that became changed by this mission, it would be annoying but not decidedly something new.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
When I ran it on my f2p accountI noticed the bomb team were lagging behind and went back to discover that apparently they had access to the stealth drones and were stood taking turns using them.
Of course such things would count as potential fun for the player so weren't given to us to emphasise the boring drudgery of wiping out primitives.
No changing that but in the end the Tzenkethi were right. These eggs are a threat.
True and...
How they handled it is questionable but what other choice is there? If the KDF knew what was coming they would have been there right with the Tzenkethi.
...
W-wha... WHAT?!
Like, seriously? Just questionable? What other choice?
Well, I dunno...how about, you know, TELLING the rest of the galaxy and providing proof, which they had? And not ticking off everyone by committing genocide against several species in the process and refusing to justify their actions?
Heck, even silently blockading planets would be a much less insane plan than exterminating everything indiscriminately.
Is what the Tzenkethi doing all that different than what the Alliance was considering doing to the Iconians?
I doubt the Tzenkethi are actively looking to wipe out species over this, they are just hell bent on eliminating a threat. Unfortunately, I think they see it as collateral damage, survive at all costs. Should they have got others involved? Absolutely they should have but that is thinking rationally.
Is what the Tzenkethi doing all that different than what the Alliance was considering doing to the Iconians?
Errr, yeah, very much!
In the case of the Alliance, not only was it a desperate attempt after several failed, including altering the timeline more or less harmlessly (which didn't help at all), not only a lot of people in the Alliance were against that, but also:
-it was a joint effort between many species from 4 quadrants against a single species bent to first enslave and later annihilate the entire galaxy
-those who were for making sure all Iconians are killed off expected to pay for that later (either by the survivors or eventually history), so they knew it was wrong, but saw it as necessary
-it didn't involve collateral damage with other species getting blown up (except the Tuterians, but it was due to outside circumstances)
and most importantly:
-yes, the Alliance considered doing it, BUT ended up NOT going through it.
Now, compare to the Tzenkethi crusade:
-no joint effort whatsoever.
-no regrets, in fact the guy in charge is quick to call deception on an entire species based on a sensor read not supported by another one, almost looking for an excuse to blow something up
-so much collateral damage the civilian deaths are probably higher than Hur'q ones so far
No changing that but in the end the Tzenkethi were right. These eggs are a threat.
True and...
How they handled it is questionable but what other choice is there? If the KDF knew what was coming they would have been there right with the Tzenkethi.
...
W-wha... WHAT?!
Like, seriously? Just questionable? What other choice?
Well, I dunno...how about, you know, TELLING the rest of the galaxy and providing proof, which they had? And not ticking off everyone by committing genocide against several species in the process and refusing to justify their actions?
Heck, even silently blockading planets would be a much less insane plan than exterminating everything indiscriminately.
Is what the Tzenkethi doing all that different than what the Alliance was considering doing to the Iconians?
I doubt the Tzenkethi are actively looking to wipe out species over this, they are just hell bent on eliminating a threat. Unfortunately, I think they see it as collateral damage, survive at all costs. Should they have got others involved? Absolutely they should have but that is thinking rationally.
The thing with genocide is that it violates laws of war which you would imagine every species would have their own version of, even the Tzenketh. With this new weapon they can cast aside their own laws of war but it doesn't invalidate other species laws of war. so anyone in the middle of that genocide, including Neth Parr are war criminals to other species.
You can't excuse a war criminal for their actions.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I like how this turned into a philosophical discussion. The tzenkethi don't exist, there was no genocide, except in a pixelated world.
I couldn't care less. I play the mission, shoot stuff, get my reward and go away. you people are LOL
which is entirely beside the point. You also forget: it was not any of us that brought it here, so playing the blame game is irrelivent since none of us can be blamed. you are pointing the finger in the wrong camp, joke is on you for that regretfully.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
In the DS9 relaunch novels (which I haven't read, wouldn't touch a Trek book with someone else's hands), Ro Laren survived the Dominion's purge of the Maquis worlds. She eventually joined the Bajoran militia and, thanks to some behind the scenes aid from Picard, was recommissioned as a Starfleet LT when Bajor formally joined the Federation. She became Chief of Security on DS9 and, after its destruction and replacement, its commanding officer.
According to the STO novel, however, she turned herself in to the Federation as a deserter. After doing her time in a penal colony (again....) she joined the Bajoran militia and eventually became Chief of Security on DS9. Who this other Ro person is, no clue.
All from Memory Alpha/Beta. Took less time to find the answers than it did to read the pointless specualtion. And I'm a fast reader.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
Well i thought it was good. I cant say i enjoyed it as i am a dyed in the wool good guy....i only play good guys so being the bad guy and killing innocents was distasteful....having said that i do think the mission added to the current story arc and padded out neths background ....hopefully they continue to build on her chatacters background.
A question I'd like to find out about - Since genocide and indiscriminate killing of innocents is a severe response, what event caused the Tzenkethi to embark on such things? These are not the reactions of sensible people. Unless they are compelled to them by having any other choice they could make removed or negated.
I supposed we could just go with the old, "Our leader is insane. We did not know. We were just following orders" thing. But this would be too easy and would not really advance the story. It would be a simple derivative of the Vaadwaur story shown previously. I was completely prepared to dislike the Vaadwaur from the get go. With the Tzenkethi I am less inclined to do so after playing this mission.
Kinda hoping Cryptic goes for something other than the usual obvious plot lines from here. I see these as:
- Plucky rebel creates resistance movement with outside help to overthrow Evil Enemy Leader.
- Evil Enemy Leader isn't evil, just misinformed and misguided. Player enlightens Evil Enemy Leader through various activities which resolve conflict through means other than armed aggression.
- Evil Enemy Leader declares a holy war on player's faction and both sides fight to the complete extinction of one or the other or both.
I am pretty sure they have something worked out. I am equally sure it is whatever took the least amount of effort and money. Further, it will be drawn in strokes so broad a blind man can see it from miles away and we'll need to use concussion protocols after being beaten over the head with it.
The Lukari stories show what this team can accomplish when it wants to. Or is allowed to. Martok's rescue is just as good. But with Scylla and Charybdis it felt like the team was just plugging things into blank spaces. This one kinda feels like the next step down what has become a very worn path.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Well I for one really enjoyed it. I rarely play escorts with lots of firepower so the ship parts were fun. I liked the ground part, and loved the way the Tzenkethi arms swang as they ran and the different weapons was interesting.
The story I found engaging, not the best but not the worst. I look forward to seeing where it goes.
I like how this turned into a philosophical discussion. The tzenkethi don't exist, there was no genocide, except in a pixelated world.
I couldn't care less. I play the mission, shoot stuff, get my reward and go away. you people are LOL
See, where there is a story, however fictional, there is always - at least for most people - a lot of thinking going on. Is X realistic? Is Y doing the right thing? Should R and J become a couple? And yes, also philosophical aspects. Actually the very idea of stories, and this includes fictional actions from fictional people, is to make people think. Even if they're only entertainment they won't work otherwise.
So yeah, when they're reading/seeing/playing a story, most people will think about it.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I like how this turned into a philosophical discussion. The tzenkethi don't exist, there was no genocide, except in a pixelated world.
I couldn't care less. I play the mission, shoot stuff, get my reward and go away. you people are LOL
See, where there is a story, however fictional, there is always - at least for most people - a lot of thinking going on. Is X realistic? Is Y doing the right thing? Should R and J become a couple? And yes, also philosophical aspects. Actually the very idea of stories, and this includes fictional actions from fictional people, is to make people think. Even if they're only entertainment they won't work otherwise.
So yeah, when they're reading/seeing/playing a story, most people will think about it.
Yeah, other people (such as the person you responded to) simply don't think as much. That's ok, we're all different fortunately
I like how this turned into a philosophical discussion. The tzenkethi don't exist, there was no genocide, except in a pixelated world.
I couldn't care less. I play the mission, shoot stuff, get my reward and go away. you people are LOL
See, where there is a story, however fictional, there is always - at least for most people - a lot of thinking going on. Is X realistic? Is Y doing the right thing? Should R and J become a couple? And yes, also philosophical aspects. Actually the very idea of stories, and this includes fictional actions from fictional people, is to make people think. Even if they're only entertainment they won't work otherwise.
So yeah, when they're reading/seeing/playing a story, most people will think about it.
I agree with all you said there, and would also add: this is Star Trek. Granted, it's an incarnation of Trek as an MMORPG shooter where players are rewarded for blowing up people and starships full of people, but it's still (loosely) part of a franchise celebrated for exploring humanist ideas. Other incarnations of Trek dealing with similar themes re: Just War Theory, military chains of command, genocide, the "just following orders" defense, war crimes, etc. would have had something to say about them. Probably literally something to say in the form of a monologue from Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, or Archer.
Hence the compounded disappointment some of us felt that you not only had to endure this, but you didn't even get the chance to at least click on a faction-appropriate dialogue box saying something about respect for life, the importance of honor, or even the disappointing (for a Romulan, natch) lack of finesse and efficiency. Such would have been a token gesture, but it would at least be grudgingly Trekish. I want to be clear that this isn't really the main disappointment with the mission nor that adding this would salvage it; merely that Trek's traditionally nodded at Big Ideas and saying it's silly for people to treat it thoughtfully goes against one of the biggest appeals of the franchise for a lot of us.
Comments
I had to neither target anything nor tickle the spacebar to activate the weapons they just went ballistic.
Most of my ships use autofire for the beams and NONE decided to instigate combat when I flew into range before this updated feature landed.
KDF did meander down the road with the great tribble hunts of olden days, I vaguely remember an episode with piles of the furballs to murder in STO, but they had the honour and sense to know that simply nuking a planet from orbit was overkill.
W-wha... WHAT?!
Like, seriously? Just questionable? What other choice?
Well, I dunno...how about, you know, TELLING the rest of the galaxy and providing proof, which they had? And not ticking off everyone by committing genocide against several species in the process and refusing to justify their actions?
Heck, even silently blockading planets would be a much less insane plan than exterminating everything indiscriminately.
(If it's intentional, we've had pre-built ships before with the Dyson and Obelisk as examples, but this is just annoyingly stupid and unnecessary)
Also had a glitch on Draconis where the 'bomb team' didn't move from the start area of the mission. When it came time for me to 'order them to begin', I went back to the start area to see if I could nudge them or something and they just warped straight to the egg room...
Stop new content until quality returns
Didn't notice that, however, there is also a setup for how autofire behaves. If that became changed by this mission, it would be annoying but not decidedly something new.
Of course such things would count as potential fun for the player so weren't given to us to emphasise the boring drudgery of wiping out primitives.
Is what the Tzenkethi doing all that different than what the Alliance was considering doing to the Iconians?
I doubt the Tzenkethi are actively looking to wipe out species over this, they are just hell bent on eliminating a threat. Unfortunately, I think they see it as collateral damage, survive at all costs. Should they have got others involved? Absolutely they should have but that is thinking rationally.
In the case of the Alliance, not only was it a desperate attempt after several failed, including altering the timeline more or less harmlessly (which didn't help at all), not only a lot of people in the Alliance were against that, but also:
-it was a joint effort between many species from 4 quadrants against a single species bent to first enslave and later annihilate the entire galaxy
-those who were for making sure all Iconians are killed off expected to pay for that later (either by the survivors or eventually history), so they knew it was wrong, but saw it as necessary
-it didn't involve collateral damage with other species getting blown up (except the Tuterians, but it was due to outside circumstances)
and most importantly:
-yes, the Alliance considered doing it, BUT ended up NOT going through it.
Now, compare to the Tzenkethi crusade:
-no joint effort whatsoever.
-no regrets, in fact the guy in charge is quick to call deception on an entire species based on a sensor read not supported by another one, almost looking for an excuse to blow something up
-so much collateral damage the civilian deaths are probably higher than Hur'q ones so far
The thing with genocide is that it violates laws of war which you would imagine every species would have their own version of, even the Tzenketh. With this new weapon they can cast aside their own laws of war but it doesn't invalidate other species laws of war. so anyone in the middle of that genocide, including Neth Parr are war criminals to other species.
You can't excuse a war criminal for their actions.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I couldn't care less. I play the mission, shoot stuff, get my reward and go away. you people are LOL
which is entirely beside the point. You also forget: it was not any of us that brought it here, so playing the blame game is irrelivent since none of us can be blamed. you are pointing the finger in the wrong camp, joke is on you for that regretfully.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I really liked this mission, especially being able to play as The Defector and taking command of his vessel. Great job on this one Devs. +1 !! ;D
HER vessel - neth parr is a female
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
According to the STO novel, however, she turned herself in to the Federation as a deserter. After doing her time in a penal colony (again....) she joined the Bajoran militia and eventually became Chief of Security on DS9. Who this other Ro person is, no clue.
All from Memory Alpha/Beta. Took less time to find the answers than it did to read the pointless specualtion. And I'm a fast reader.
When I turn the mission in, I get the console and a food item. Maybe it was near lunch time the Devs hungry when they finished this one?
.good mission overall.
I supposed we could just go with the old, "Our leader is insane. We did not know. We were just following orders" thing. But this would be too easy and would not really advance the story. It would be a simple derivative of the Vaadwaur story shown previously. I was completely prepared to dislike the Vaadwaur from the get go. With the Tzenkethi I am less inclined to do so after playing this mission.
Kinda hoping Cryptic goes for something other than the usual obvious plot lines from here. I see these as:
- Plucky rebel creates resistance movement with outside help to overthrow Evil Enemy Leader.
- Evil Enemy Leader isn't evil, just misinformed and misguided. Player enlightens Evil Enemy Leader through various activities which resolve conflict through means other than armed aggression.
- Evil Enemy Leader declares a holy war on player's faction and both sides fight to the complete extinction of one or the other or both.
I am pretty sure they have something worked out. I am equally sure it is whatever took the least amount of effort and money. Further, it will be drawn in strokes so broad a blind man can see it from miles away and we'll need to use concussion protocols after being beaten over the head with it.
The Lukari stories show what this team can accomplish when it wants to. Or is allowed to. Martok's rescue is just as good. But with Scylla and Charybdis it felt like the team was just plugging things into blank spaces. This one kinda feels like the next step down what has become a very worn path.
The story I found engaging, not the best but not the worst. I look forward to seeing where it goes.
See, where there is a story, however fictional, there is always - at least for most people - a lot of thinking going on. Is X realistic? Is Y doing the right thing? Should R and J become a couple? And yes, also philosophical aspects. Actually the very idea of stories, and this includes fictional actions from fictional people, is to make people think. Even if they're only entertainment they won't work otherwise.
So yeah, when they're reading/seeing/playing a story, most people will think about it.
Yeah, other people (such as the person you responded to) simply don't think as much. That's ok, we're all different fortunately
I agree with all you said there, and would also add: this is Star Trek. Granted, it's an incarnation of Trek as an MMORPG shooter where players are rewarded for blowing up people and starships full of people, but it's still (loosely) part of a franchise celebrated for exploring humanist ideas. Other incarnations of Trek dealing with similar themes re: Just War Theory, military chains of command, genocide, the "just following orders" defense, war crimes, etc. would have had something to say about them. Probably literally something to say in the form of a monologue from Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, or Archer.
Hence the compounded disappointment some of us felt that you not only had to endure this, but you didn't even get the chance to at least click on a faction-appropriate dialogue box saying something about respect for life, the importance of honor, or even the disappointing (for a Romulan, natch) lack of finesse and efficiency. Such would have been a token gesture, but it would at least be grudgingly Trekish. I want to be clear that this isn't really the main disappointment with the mission nor that adding this would salvage it; merely that Trek's traditionally nodded at Big Ideas and saying it's silly for people to treat it thoughtfully goes against one of the biggest appeals of the franchise for a lot of us.