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Is damage too high or are hitpoints/resistances too low in PvP?

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    [Mod Hat] Oh look, there's a PVP Feedback forum, who knew? :P [/Mod Hat]
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,889 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Note to self: Never include a "something different about this" option in polls again. People will use it as an excuse to totally avoid the question and talk about their own favorite subject instead, invalidating the poll.

    Without an anti-PvP option of some kind the poll becomes biased. At the very least you need an "I don't care" option.

    People who dont care typically don't vote in such a poll. No need for an option to click that.

    See, you're wrong there. You initially posted this in General Discussion, which implies that you want the opinion of the STO community as a whole, not just the opinion of PvPers. If you hadn't included an alternate option you still would have received all the same responses, as well as numerous complaints of a biased poll.
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]

    See, you're wrong there. You initially posted this in General Discussion, which implies that you want the opinion of the STO community as a whole, not just the opinion of PvPers. [...]

    Yes, and I do. Those who don't want PvP can just not reply. The low number of total votes will demonstrate that then.

    Moreoever, the really disappointing thing about this poll is how, once again, people don't want to talk about the specific subproblem disucssed here, but hijacked it to further their own ideas. Apparently making their own threads about their ideas was too much effort.

    I would have loved to know what people think about the question I asked. Now I won't know, because too many people just don't get the point.

    I think our lovely mod also moved this thread in this sub-section out of spite, where no one is looking.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    who cares? all trying to fix this will do is **** up PVE.

    How would increasing player hitpoints, for instance, "**** up PVE"?

    Because anytime you jack around one "theoretically balanced" side of an equation without adjusting the other side of the equation, you by definition unbalance said equation and, by extension, "**** up" said situation.

    On another note, I still in the like 5 years I've been here not seen the answer to this "question" a Dev posted years ago:

    How does one balance for a 1v1 PvP and a 5v1 PvP at the same time?

    We all know that team PvP is not 5x 1v1s, someone's gonna "get smart" and have the tank team up with the Tac and "focus fire" on someone turning the theoretical 2v2 into a 2v1 which goes the way of numerical superiority allowing the 2 to make a 3v1 somewhere, etc. - and as soon as team PvP decides that it's gonna be 5v5 every encounter, the Sci's bound to pull up with his "capable of scrambling the enemy during a 1v1 GW III and land it on all 5 opponents at once, which no team of 5x tacs or 5x tanks can match with their "3 targets at a time" BFaWs/CSVs/Torp Spreads, and if the enemy does suddenly get 5xtarget CSV/spread, the GW team executes a flanking maneuver keeping at least one target out of the CSV cone at all times...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I think the way to fix this is to make PVE more like PVP from the start. Instead of having hitpoint sponges for bosses and AI that flies in circles until dying, make mastering dmg-type specific resistances, debuffing enemy defenses, survivability, and disabling shields/subsystems necessary to advance in the game. Don’t allow players who haven’t mastered these basic skills advance past levels 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60, forcing them to learn the gameplay necessary for a successful PVP match as part of leveling up. At present, it is hardly a challenge to go from 1-60 using the bare minimum knowledge of what ships are capable of doing.

    Want to advance past the Borg arc? Well, you need to learn how to disable the Queen’s subsystems in order to get any damage through. Want to beat the Romulans? Better bring a particle emission torp and some other cloak detection tech because they’re not going to make it easy for you by firing spike dmg on your rear arc and going back to cloak before you can react. Each enemy NPC type should have its tactics tweaked to TEACH one important aspect of PVP. Then, when players reach STO’s true endgame they won’t get PvPTSD when they are nuked in five seconds. They will know how they died, why they died, and have some basic understanding about how to adapt besides calling for the removal or segregation of PVP in the forums. The Hur’Q AI—the way the swarmers find your rear arc—is something that should be expanded upon, taken in different directions, and applied to every NPC in the game.

    This is actually a decent idea.

    They are kinda doing this....because didn't they release a shield that had a stronger rear arc on it...before the Hur'q? I think it was the Tzenkethi one.
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  • gaalomgaalom Member Posts: 528 Arc User
    Yes they did I noticed that shield too, a interesting new concept.

    I have not pvped since they turned off the war between the feds/kdf. What I remember is flying a dreadnought/heavy cruiser was suicide. Mainly because escorts/bops could nuke cruisers in seconds. It did not matter what you did in your cruiser. Some elements have changed from that time. Specifically the nuking of going down fighting on the tact end and other things. I do not know how strong cruisers tanking is now.

    This next part I am sure I will get trolled by people who have topped there ships out, but you can not make a generalization about something from standing at a strong position. From a normal new toon perspective, that has not been set up by a main. The pve end of the game is exceptionally tough right now from delta rising onward. Mainly due to the excessive amounts of heavy aoe damage attacks or heavy single target attacks during the Iconian campaign. Most of which you can not avoid, because you never see them coming. I do not think increasing that difficulty by locking aspects of the game down is a smart move to teach them pvp. Nor do I think you can force feed them a mechanic to teach them pvp. A pvper must WANT to learn in order to do well. I hope the devs understand that when they see threads like these. Thats the fly in the ointment most people want to fly in, not read up, and smash the other person. This game has become complicated over time in a good way. There is so many sets and weapons out there now, and that is a good thing. I doubt people who try out pvp even realize half the stuff is in game.

    Just my two cents. I mainly posted because I would rather not see Delta Rising onward become even more of a pain in the TRIBBLE as it is now is plenty tough. No I am not asking for nerfs, though those missions drive me up the wall, I consider them a challenge. Putting that one aoe ability from delta rising in lockboxes, because it was so powerful kinda proves my point. Just one players thoughts.
  • salvation4salvation4 Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    Just my opinion here..

    Well as many above have stated PvP is a disaster area..When the small bunch of PvPérs see something they cant one shot or take down in 5 seconds or less they bring out the nerf card..What is totally skipped here is that if PvPérs want something nerfed it effects the whole game..EG: The Borg RA has become so laughable now they are like a 2 minute skirmish with the "SUPPOSEDLY MOST LETHAL ENEMY IN STAR TREK LORE" going WTF just happened to us?! Same applies to the Tholian RA and Tzenkheti RA..The Nakhul RA was nuked from orbit into non-exsistance..

    The scaling in PvP is really bad atm because, even with a 100k+ HP and 21K+ shield and an average 45-50% resistance across the board tank (I have a ENG build with these stats) can get nuked so easily in 1v1 in less than 5 seonds against a sci ship with an insane amout of power creep and the amount of allies it can summon including pets and GW and projectors turns the whole thing into a TRIBBLE storm of 1v10, 5v5 is kinda ok but needs more balance, NOT in weapons but in the overall classes (SCI, TAC, ENG) which did'nt happen despite the changes that dropped in S13, and I dont expect them to fix this at all..1v1 is a clear example of how badly unbalanced PvP is and how it effects PvE and the rest of the game through unbalanced classes..

    Baseline the classes need to be balanced properly..SCI still sits at the TOP with a ridiculous amount of creep..TAC in at second and ENG in the dumps with all it tanking abilities in PvP put to shame..In PvE its a different story altogehter..And yeah PvPér need to stop saying something needs to get nerfed because the cant one shot it because it just ruins the remainder of the game like what has happened with the RA's and a declined number of players in the normal instances of PvE which effectively locks out newer players as those cues dont pop but Advanced ones pop more than anything else..Also developers need to stop making weapons of one shot destruction and focus on balancing the game in totality not just one part of the player base crying nerf because we cant oneshot the thing..

    The funiest comment I have seen in a BORG RA was one player saying "the Unimatrix ship should have been destroyed in one shot cause I can do it in PvP"..If this happens the entier game is going to become so lame it wont be even funny to comment.

    We need better enemies like what the Borg RA was years back where you couldnt take down all 4 groups so easily in the alotted time to draw out the unimatrix ship, and not unbalanced power creeps..

    And no..Not many are playing in PvP's atleast when I am on..Group PvP's are dead..

    Just My 2 cents here..
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  • salvation4salvation4 Member Posts: 1,167 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    who cares? all trying to fix this will do is **** up PVE.

    How would increasing player hitpoints, for instance, "**** up PVE"?

    Because anytime you jack around one "theoretically balanced" side of an equation without adjusting the other side

    But no one said the other side wouldn't be adjusted. You could multiply both NPC damage and player hitpoints by the same factor, for zero numerical difference in PvE. I have argued for that in the past. In the context of this question, however, mentioning that would be pointless, because it is about the analysis of the problem, not the complete solution.


    Clearly havent noted the HP of opponents in Elite instances where HP and SHP is a massive factor where the weapons and buffs are scaled in a way to take HP effectively because of the high HP and SHP on both sides..In PvP the same scaling is used for weapons and abilities against opponents with a different HP and SHP and class (ENG, TAC, SCI)..In PvE we dont even have classes to speak of for the NPC's and thats the major difference..

    So if you if you say jack up HP and SHP you nerf all enemies in PvE like what has happened with the RA's..So just increasing stuff doesnt work for the whole..The player classes need to be rebalanced then PvP becomes viable..Not just jack stuff up where the entier game dynamic changes..PvP shows you how out of balance player classes are..
    Adrian-Uss Sovereign NCC-73811 (LVL 65 FED ENG) UR/E MKXV Fleet Intel Assault Cruiser (April 2012) (Main)
    Adu-Uss Firefox NCC-93425-F (LVL 65 FED AoY ENG) UR/VR MKXV Fleet Intel Assault Cruiser (July 2016)
    Jean-Uss Seratoga Ravenna (LVL 60 FED Delta ENG) UC/R MKVI Bajoran Escort (April 2018)
    Dubsa-RRW Mnaudh (LVL 50 FED allied ROM Delta ENG) Warbird (May 2018)
    Marop-IKS Orunthi (LVL 50 KNG Delta ENG) BoP (May 2018)
    Kanak'lan-TRIBBLE (LVL 65 DOM Gamma ENG) TRIBBLE (June 2018)
  • mrdragon97mrdragon97 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    @coldnapalm why do you even/still come here? you are not gonna pvp anyway, your posts about removing pvp are not constructive in any way and are getting really old, just face it, they are not gonna remove it
  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    mrdragon97 wrote: »
    @coldnapalm why do you even/still come here? you are not gonna pvp anyway, your posts about removing pvp are not constructive in any way and are getting really old, just face it, they are not gonna remove it

    Maybe he gets rekt in the past and is still butthurt or so.. nobody knows. ;)


    PVP is well balanced & a lot of Fun.


    Time to go.. . :p

    Regarts
    David
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  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Dude.. if you want a " Hug ".. just let me know and dont worry.. at leasst everything will be ok. <3
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    David
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  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Why would I want a hug from somebody who is delusional? Egotistical much? Oh I know, maybe YOU need the hug to make you feel better about yourself. Do I look like your mom? Go back to mommy if you need a hug to protect you from the big bad world...because the big bad world don't care...and neither do I (other than the shear giggles I get watching some of the stupidity on display).

    oh dissapointed.. it seems you are still mad Bro.

    PS. You know what a " talker " is ? You should watch in the Mirror.. you will see one. B)

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    David
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  • usskentuckyusskentucky Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    I think coldnapalm mad
  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    ..

    Well.. all i see is you runing in every " PvP Thread " and saying allways the same. You dont need to play it.. or like it.. or whatever.. im fine with that.. BUT you should understand that still some Guys like it and want to play it.

    Last 2 Cents

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    David
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  • bindingchainsbindingchains Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    I decided to play a PvP match the other day, something I rarely do in these 6 years I play the game. Someone wiped my ship in a eyeblink, I didnt even have the time to hit a button.

    I have 20K shields and 85K hull, my ship is entirely build around resistance, shield strength, shield heal/regen, basically a support ship that can take a TON beating in PvE because I draw aggro healing. When I realized someone destroyed me in 1 second and half with my shields fully up I never set foot on PvP again...
  • usskentuckyusskentucky Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, 85k Hull isn’t too hard to vape. In PvP you have to equip traits and abilities that act as brief immunities to spike damage. And then you need to use placates to disrupt their fully buffed attacks. Finally, science team away all those nasty debuffs you got hit with. Then you can fight back. It’s not like PVE where you can just creep up on a gang of probes that will neither provoke nor pursue you. In the Arena, YOU are the hunted. Especially if you are big slow tanker hoss that’s easier to shoot than the pilot cannon vapers.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Yeah, 85k Hull isn’t too hard to vape. In PvP you have to equip traits and abilities that act as brief immunities to spike damage. And then you need to use placates to disrupt their fully buffed attacks. Finally, science team away all those nasty debuffs you got hit with. Then you can fight back. It’s not like PVE where you can just creep up on a gang of probes that will neither provoke nor pursue you. In the Arena, YOU are the hunted. Especially if you are big slow tanker hoss that’s easier to shoot than the pilot cannon vapers.

    And just how much shield pen are you using?
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

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  • usskentuckyusskentucky Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    Just whatever inate shield pen (i.e. this effect has 50% shield penetration) is attached to the weapons and abilities I’m firing. Everything is a LOT more effective when you hit someone with a subnuc or disable healing using the engineering ultimate ability or an alpha strike at just the right moment. Then throw in some holds and subsystem disables from various boff abilities like viral matrix or electromagnetic pulse probe. If the player isn’t specced to be resistant to control and drain, and if the player isn’t ready to clear the debuffs and holds with team abilities, a vape like that is totally possible.
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