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Is damage too high or are hitpoints/resistances too low in PvP?

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  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    Just whatever inate shield pen (i.e. this effect has 50% shield penetration) is attached to the weapons and abilities I’m firing. Everything is a LOT more effective when you hit someone with a subnuc or disable healing using the engineering ultimate ability or an alpha strike at just the right moment. Then throw in some holds and subsystem disables from various boff abilities like viral matrix or electromagnetic pulse probe. If the player isn’t specced to be resistant to control and drain, and if the player isn’t ready to clear the debuffs and holds with team abilities, a vape like that is totally possible.

    exactly
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Just whatever inate shield pen (i.e. this effect has 50% shield penetration) is attached to the weapons and abilities I’m firing. Everything is a LOT more effective when you hit someone with a subnuc or disable healing using the engineering ultimate ability or an alpha strike at just the right moment. Then throw in some holds and subsystem disables from various boff abilities like viral matrix or electromagnetic pulse probe. If the player isn’t specced to be resistant to control and drain, and if the player isn’t ready to clear the debuffs and holds with team abilities, a vape like that is totally possible.

    Oh... OK. Next time in Ker'rat (if I bother, having a good time with Foundry "story" missions, right now)...I will have to keep my eyes peeled for that.

    I don't think I saw any disable stuff going on at all, actually ... but then I think the folks I was watching just weren't that good at it. I think, they still follow that DPS adage: they can't kill you if they are dead. And tried to DPS their way through my Hull.

    It didn't take long to tell they were going through my shields, though. I carry more heals and batteries than most people since I play by myself and am a "refusenik". I do not max out my gear, or "optimize" for every bit of DPS or Crit.

    Yeah, the DPS followers need more help adapting to PvP, me thinks. They don't think of DEFENSE.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    who cares? all trying to fix this will do is **** up PVE.

    How would increasing player hitpoints, for instance, "**** up PVE"?

    Because anytime you jack around one "theoretically balanced" side of an equation without adjusting the other side

    But no one said the other side wouldn't be adjusted. You could multiply both NPC damage and player hitpoints by the same factor, for zero numerical difference in PvE. I have argued for that in the past. In the context of this question, however, mentioning that would be pointless, because it is about the analysis of the problem, not the complete solution.


    First off, part of "problem analysis" is the discussion of complete solutions to the problem. Otherwise, you're just doing "problem identification" - which is nothing more than a whole bunch of "this affects me-too-itis"...

    Secondly, you do realize that a singular variable - say player hull total - is in a heck of a lot more than one equation? And, because of design choices, carries different weights in these different equations, right?

    To use the example in this discussion, player hull total, a Science ship is, by design, only expected to have hull total represent 25% of the "total time to survive" - shield use/healing is where the Sci ship gets the majority of their survival from, while in a lot of cases cruisers are built to be the inverse, hull is 75% of their survivability, and escorts get a chunk of survival out of evading damage in the first place (not being hit in the first place is just as effective, if not more so, than being hit and patching it up).

    So, by "balancing" the player hull vs. NPC dealt damage for, say, cruisers to be "zero sum", you've scrambled the science ship and escort equations. Now, if you're gonna get into tweaking a pile of numbers to keep all three (cruiser, sci, escort survivability) equations "equal" - aren't you in effect gonna wind up with, essentially, "nerfing" player guns in PvP while attempting to keep PvE "zero sum"?

    But yet, wouldn't a straight up nerf of player guns potentially result in the resurrection of "zombie cruisers" that need an entire team's worth of firepower to crack?

    Honestly, I'd say nerf shield pen and nerf the NPCs that caused these ridiculous amounts of shield pen to become necessary would be the more sustainable solution than starting another chain of powercreep and chasing "unintended effects"...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    dareau wrote: »
    aren't you in effect gonna wind up with, essentially, "nerfing" player guns in PvP while attempting to keep PvE "zero sum"?

    Hmmm... I can see that.
    dareau wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd say nerf shield pen and nerf the NPCs that caused these ridiculous amounts of shield pen to become necessary would be the more sustainable solution than starting another chain of powercreep and chasing "unintended effects"...

    I am not sure that shield pen or armor pen needs to be inside the basic skills....in the skill tree. Because that is, basically, doing the same thing. They are upping the hull and shields on T-6 ships only to take them away with penetration.

    Just like immunity inside specialization and traits killed having to learn healing.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • oakland4lifeoakland4life Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    If this was Pre-DR it might be easier to suggest a solution, but since after DR with all the mass flood releases of Traits, Gear and other stuff... not so much easier now. I don't think adding more HP to player ships in PvP will solve the issue since there are some players using Sci and Eng ships can tank a entire fleet of vapers especiialy with immunes and time travel abilities. I think the Trait system is the issue, as it is now with it's freestyle setup most players will make their ships pure super-Vapers or Super-Tanks in PvP. I would suggest revamping the current Trait system or adding separate PvP trait page to a more balance configuration...

    For Canon Species: (Starship Example)
    - 5x Personal Offensive Starship Traits (Personal Attacking Damage, Debuff & Boost, etc.)
    - 5x Personal Defensive Starship Traits (Personal All Resistance Increase, Heals & Reflect, etc.)
    - 3-4x Rep Offensive Starship Traits (Rep Attacking Damage, Debuff & Boost, etc.)
    - 3-4x Rep Defensive Starship Traits (Rep All Resistance Increase, Heals & Reflect, etc.)
    - Universal Traits (Such as Speed & Stealth boost, etc. can be added on either slot, since i see them as both Offensive & Defensive traits to intercept/disengage and cloak hiding/ambush).
    - 1x Alien Character Universal Trait Slot to select 1 extra from any traits.
    - Active Reputation Abilities: 3x separate slots for Starship & Ground since they gonna add more Reps anyways.

    I don't think this alone will solve everything 100% in PvP, but i do believe by revamping the Trait system to a more balanced offensive/defensive setup should significantly reduce the issue of one-shot kills or having indestructible ships by forcing players not to put everything on offense or defense. But if you ask me, Cryptic will do nothing about it. -_-



  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    I don't think this alone will solve everything 100% in PvP, but i do believe by revamping the Trait system to a more balanced offensive/defensive setup should significantly reduce the issue of one-shot kills or having indestructible ships by forcing players not to put everything on offense or defense. But if you ask me, Cryptic will do nothing about it. -_-

    The reason they will do nothing like what you are suggesting: it costs too much of programmer time. Programmer time = $$$$

    The only way to do this, therefore, is set of rules agreed upon in advance among the players. What traits that can and can't be slotted, which special consoles can and can't be in use, on characters with no specialization points allocated in ANY Specialization. And have each player follow those rules.

    Without the need for difficult to acquire consoles or traits from R&D/Lockbox ships and such, and without the need to grind for Specializations...it should make it more friendly for new players who want to get into PvP.

    But from what I understand... Patrickngo tried something like this before. There wasn't a lot of interest in PvP like this.

    +++++++++++

    BTW......I have already requested a way to turn off Specialization or give players a selection button to select none, somehow. But feel that fell on deaf ears. Hence: level up characters with no specialization points allocated is the only way to shut immunities that come through Specialization down.

    Note: I am not interested in PvP...just shutting down all the immunity while I play.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    (because NPCs require ludicrous levels of damage relative to players to kill)

    Except on Normal.

    Cryptic is amping up the "power creep" on damage output by players to NPC hit points on Advanced. Or Elite. Without any concern at all about what that does to Normal or to PvP? Highly unlikely.
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    PvP has thus always been about the instant-kill vs. the nigh-indestructible

    That is a type of PvP that may exist. There are several people who would disagree that PvP has always been this way. It should be a joust.
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    And at this point, anyone left in the PvP game PREFERS it this way

    Of course they do, they have set themselves up to have run of the entire program, the king of the hill, by raising requirements to impossible heights. And can dictate to players the way things will be. Or GTFO. LOL!

    Which is a shame...because PvP has been relegated to the outskirts for this type of attitude and activity. And rightly, so.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    (because NPCs require ludicrous levels of damage relative to players to kill)

    Except on Normal.

    Cryptic is amping up the "power creep" on damage output by players to NPC hit points on Advanced. Or Elite. Without any concern at all about what that does to Normal or to PvP? Highly unlikely.

    to you it may seem unlikely, but it's absolutely accurate. YOu can run normals with white drop gear at mkX and do okay, but that's highly not-recommended at Advanced or Elite levels unless you've got a great team behind you. The power-creep is entirely focused on running that higher content, and what defines that higher content?

    big, thick walls of hitpoints NPC side, virtually no impact with disables, where buff-stripping does exactly nothing except run a quick animation, because the NPC's are not following the same ruleset that players do-they don't suffer from drains, for example, including subsystem attacks, they don't experience a measurable impact from buff-strips like Subnuke, because their abilities are triggering on a timer that does not reset or experience delays, NPC's don't buff, because your buffed defenses are basically half their unbuffed defense, esp. in Advanced or Elite content.

    ruinthefun wrote: »
    PvP has thus always been about the instant-kill vs. the nigh-indestructible

    That is a type of PvP that may exist. There are several people who would disagree that PvP has always been this way. It should be a joust.

    There's a major difference between what PvP has become, and where it began, or even where it was six years ago. Six years ago, a healer on your team was worth something, because you couldn't stack super-healing and still render damage, it was one or the other, and there was a trade off in play that isn't here now if you wanted to pull Thissler-style strikes (Spikes), you had to sacrifice something (usually survivability)-that no longer applies, and in the present, if you grind enough and play the EC markets and lockbox keys well enough, you don't even need a team. Mind that you probably won't be able to find someone who can take you down, at least not without stripping some of your build off first, but getting kills is really, really, really easy if you grind enough EC and spend enough time grinding PvE. To give you an example of how it's changed...

    in 2012, blue MkXI was 'entry level gear' for PvP, meaning you didn't need more than that to NOT be a liability for a pug team in Arena or Ker'rat. Gameplay elements like throttle and power management were actually important, and having a caller, or a healer, on your team was an asset.

    This no longer applies, and hasn't since the middle of 2014 under Dan D'angelo as EP. the focus of development has been toward making each player a little self-sufficient island of immunities and passive buffs that can't be stripped or countered, so long as said little antisocial island spends sufficient time and/or money obtaining the latest broken gear from the current magic-the-gathering-style set (due to be retired in three months from release via a nerf and the introduction of a new flavour of the moment.)


    ruinthefun wrote: »
    And at this point, anyone left in the PvP game PREFERS it this way

    Of course they do, they have set themselves up to have run of the entire program, the king of the hill, by raising requirements to impossible heights. And can dictate to players the way things will be. Or GTFO. LOL!

    Which is a shame...because PvP has been relegated to the outskirts for this type of attitude and activity. And rightly, so.

    the activity, and th e attitude, are the direct result of Cryptic's development policies and focus. Essentially the community you're seeing, that you don't like? that's been actively managed into being. It did not used to be that way, and reversing the trend simply isn't going to happen.

    Providing you with some perspective so you (or anyone else who's got your questions) can digest this...

    2010-2012- PvP was a small minority, but it was friendly, accessible to new players, with a large community that was intent on growing it, it was casual-friendly and there was an organized and even supported effort to provide knowledge and assistance for casuals and new players looking to get into it. this was the era which saw things like "Hilbert's Guide to PvP" being widely accessible to new players, the PvP bootcamp group which worked WITH the Community Manager of the time (Branflakes) to help new PvP players get their feet wet and prepare for the activity. Players were also able to level via PvP on both KDF and Federation sides, deepening and widening the experience base for the activity and reinforcing th e community.

    2013: Branflakes leaves, PvP bootcamp is shut down...several items are intro'ed into circulation via lockboxes that have no counters, short cooldown, and little to no impact on NPC's while being grossly overpowered vs. Players. Raider flanking is introduced, and (amazingly) it has split stats that account for the difference between NPC and player targets. Still, they managed to delay full implementation until three months after the winter event in 2014, but it was a sign of some hope (aborted sign, it turns out) that someone at Cryptic considered player vs player to be worth thinking about. This intelligent move was never to be seen again with any other new ability.

    2014: D'Angelo's tour as EP, the Tantrum of Borticus is thrown, efforts to address balance issues are summarily shut down with the "left amicably" of AdjudicatorHawk, Delta Rising breaks in with stacked power-creep and (again) yet more no-counters/no cooldown/no limits abilities. Godmoding is the rule of the day, and will be so until March of 2015, when it's time to retire the current set to debut the next one. This is where the bulk of the PvP community said enough is enough and walked out, leaving a few cloistered diehards and the powergaming twink community that all this powercreep is truly geared to cater to.

    2016: More powercreep. this time in the form of uncounterable bridge officer abilities that required purchasing a new ship at t he new tier, mostly also requiring abandoning your non-Federation toons to obscurity, since even th e crossfaction versions defaulted to "USS". Temporal powers were hitting right through all shields and resistances, with no counter if you didn't have a temporal seat. (this was seen by Borticus as "great for pvp", indicative of his view of what PvP is.)
    and again, this was a 'set thing' like your magic deck, there to be OP for three to six months' time before being 'nerfed' so that the next big thing could be rolled out.

    2017: Season 13 rolls back a lot of powercreep-for three weeks, before rolling it right back in as soon as someone (*probably borticus or geko) came back from vacation to put the railroad back on the tracks. Matchmaking that was promised in 2010 shows up, but it only applies to three queues that are set up to fail by having their chief reward farmed out to Red Alerts and the Mirror Invasion at better time/effort ratios for both almost immediately. (faster than any rep reward ever debuted.)

    The writing's been on the wall for a while now, and it's merely a matter of time before the current dev who's spoken with pvp players in a non-hostile manner winds up 'leaving Cryptic under amicable terms' in the same manner as every OTHER dev who's treated it as anything other than an undesirable and unwanted boil on the **** of the game.


    @patrickngo Thank you for always putting the stuff I'm too lazy to write out into words. :D Though I couldn't have written it out nearly as well as you did. I particularly appreciate the part you wrote about healers as I was always a healer in PvP, and in recent times have seen the value of a healer go to 0. Actually, about a month ago I re-skilled my engineer for the first time since 2014 from being a healer to DPS because there's just no room for a full healer anymore. That is what ended my time spent playing PvP. It took far too long for me to figure out just how bad PvP has gotten.
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  • rhenvar42rhenvar42 Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    I don't advocate for PVP being removed, but I do think that maybe they could split it into tiers that are based on what gear a person is running. For example, we could have a hardcore PVP level that only allows players with MKXIV epic level gear to play, where is as there could be a casual level that only allows you to use Very rare MK XII gear.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,398 Community Moderator
    guy's this thread has vastly deviated from being civil and such. for now /closed
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