As for the data given...the issue is that the way the sample is collected is flawed for a general population view. It takes a view of a map that is favored by DPS chasers. It is only collecting from a data sample that DPS chasers comes in contact with. It is not what the average playerbase looks like. It COULD be...but if it was, it would only be so by shear coincedence and not because of the data model. The data model basically does not apply. Going well it's the ONLY data so we will apply it to EVERYTHING is not how you do these things. Might wanna learn some basic statistical modeling before you claim to be on the side of global climate change scientists and calling those who have issue with what you did because it breaks so many statistical modeling rules that it isn't even funny the deniers who claim because I said so. We actually have math and logic and science on our side. You basically are saying it is so because we have no other data so damn everything else. That ain't far off from the data is wrong because it doesn't fit my own observation (which BTW is a data point).
The only thing I can agree in this paragraph is the fact that the data is collected around one queue, ISA. As such the data is relevant about the population that runs ISA only.
Also, it is the convention of the STO Community to use ISA as the basis of measuring your DPS output for comparison to others. And in that context, can be applied to the STO community at large as an overall measuring stick of DPS capability. The amount of data collected is enough to make it statistically relevant to this population.
I used to pug Elite space queues with a bud of mine that I play with regularly, but ever since the balance pass pugs fail so completely at Elite that we don't really bother anymore. There is no point in doing Elites in a pug when failure is all but guaranteed. Now don't get me wrong I don't mind failure, but I need there to be at least a small possibility of success and there is near zero chance in Elite pugs.
Well, that depends on which elites you play...Rhi Station, Bug Hunt, and Viscous Cycle rarely fail while something like Korfez rarely succeeds.
I just keep to playing Rhi station on Elite. I used to play Undine Infiltration as well in the past, but since the infamous fire extinguisher bug, i have refrained from playing it. No point in running the first part successfully if the mission has a 50% chance to end up in an auto-fail because of a stupid, yet-to-be-fixed glitch
Hmm, hadn't heard of that one... I queue up for UIE each time I queue for other elites, but I haven't played it in a long time because it's never the first one to pop.
I used to pug Elite space queues with a bud of mine that I play with regularly, but ever since the balance pass pugs fail so completely at Elite that we don't really bother anymore. There is no point in doing Elites in a pug when failure is all but guaranteed. Now don't get me wrong I don't mind failure, but I need there to be at least a small possibility of success and there is near zero chance in Elite pugs.
Well, that depends on which elites you play...Rhi Station, Bug Hunt, and Viscous Cycle rarely fail while something like Korfez rarely succeeds.
I find the elite ground queues a lot more doable with a pug team. So I agree that. I haven't tried Vicious cycle since the nerf so I will have to take your word on that one.
> @sophlogimo said: > It doesn't matter how bad your build is. > It doesn't matter how bad you think you play. > It doesn't matter if there are some "I never want to fail, I'll rather not play than fail!" naysayers in your team. > > Queue up on Elite. The only way those queues get filled is if people queue up. Publicly. Not in some private group that guarantees a swift victory by overpowering anything the mission. Play with a risk to fail. > > And if you get shred to pieces, it doesn't matter. Queue up. You'll enable others to play, you'll possibly have a few glorious moments even then, and even if not, you might find out something about your ship or your captain. > > Queue up. On Elite. Publicly. > > > > (Every replier who misses the point gets a virtual cookie.)
I just keep to playing Rhi station on Elite. I used to play Undine Infiltration as well in the past, but since the infamous fire extinguisher bug, i have refrained from playing it. No point in running the first part successfully if the mission has a 50% chance to end up in an auto-fail because of a stupid, yet-to-be-fixed glitch
From my experience Undine Infiltration Elite has dead long before the fire extinguisher bug reared it's ugly head. The few times when the queue seem to have revived for a short period of time were mostly ruined by noobs who failed the interrogation part of the mission. One time the mission failed within 10 seconds. Yeah, a mission failed before even a single shot was fired.
The few times the mission was a success in 2016 and 2017 was when players actually listened to me when I told them not to attempt to interrogate anyone if the do not know how to do it. I would complete that part of the mission myself if necessary.
There's a huge difference between a queue that's bugged to the point of being impossible to complete, one that fails often because of silly mistakes, and another that has the difficulty ramped up to eleventy.
I play the elite queues that I can manage on a pug. I'm not one of the top five* players - not by a long shot - so I've given up entirely on the likes of Korfez.
*Not percentile. The way Korfez is now you'd probably have to be one of the literal top five to stand a better than even chance.
more folks would play the ques if it was all solo play that scaled as you add more folks... i signed up for regular quests that never popped... let alone going in for advanced/elite that can fail after waiting god knows how long. only ques I do now are event ques... preferable the short ones like Crystal Entity (love that que - wish all grind content is that short)
.. preferable the short ones like Crystal Entity (love that que - wish all grind content is that short)
Not sure what there is to 'love' about CCA. A mission where the biggest challenge is often getting into weapons range before the target is already dead.
Average 1,520 dilithium-equivalent per minute. 2,070 if you get the nukemark daily.
That is, for those days when for some reason you don't already hit the quota with Admiralty.
It doesn't matter whether I'm capable of doing it or not. I play the game to have fun, and I don't have fun doing raids.
This. I play STO because I want to have fun, not constantly respawn because my ship isn't geared for elite queues (and I can't be bothered to even try to gear it, even IF I had the means, which I don't).
I prefer to run some RAs when I need marks. They're more fun and I don't 'die' as much, if at all. I also enjoy the battlezones once in awhile.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Had it a few times where you try and help someone and they basically say "F-U...I'll do it how I want".
And that is completely fine, because this is just a game.
Ummm...yeah no. If you want to be a little sociopath, go play a single player game. When you join a MMO, you need to adopt the norms of the community...and going I'm gonna ruins everyone else's run because I wanna ain't gonna fly.
But the norms of the community are "we want pet tabs and space barbie".
Who doesn't want Space Barbie like this??
Capt. Vaana Lanza 'Kirking it up'
Or like these??
But on the topic; No thank you, for several reasons...
-> I only have one build (out of many) which has all UR gear, and that's a definite Glass Cannon: I'm not bringing a knife to a gun fight, and I'm definitely not spending to upgrade this, or any other build, just to be 'within the threshold', for the following reasons:
-> Toxicity of the playerbase. I keep Chat minimized anyway, but I'd rather not be the reason for someone with Space-Rage to lose their sh*t and start screeching...
-> Hard Fail Conditions. I'm not someone who thinks 'If I don't try, I can't lose...', and I don't mind not completing an objective first time every time without a need to respawn (If I was, Kirkette, there, would not have accepted the No Captain challenge ) But I'm not going to risk wasting my time on a goal/reward which could be lost, because someone else fluffs it. Like the Tzenkethi RA, for example. It's a really cool RA, and I enjoy it, but I rarely actually play it, because I'm not prepared to walk away with nothing, because someone else has gotten so involved in blasting on cruisers, that they forget about the torpedoes. I'm not prepared to waste that time, when I could be doing something else instead. Especially when I know that I'm not good enough to solo the instance, and thus can't carry stragglers...
-> Completel lack of interest in the rewards. With a few exceptions, I don't do Reputation. Those exceptions are, Romulan (ie getting it up to Level 3 to unlock the next missions on New Romulus, and Terran (because I keep hearing that the Terran Warp Core is The Business, so I want to try one for myself...)
So in all honesty, there's no reason for me to queue up for the content...
Post edited by silverlobes#2676 on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
[...]I play STO because I want to have fun, not constantly respawn because my ship isn't geared for elite queues (and I can't be bothered to even try to gear it, even IF I had the means, which I don't).
I prefer to run some RAs when I need marks. They're more fun and I don't 'die' as much, if at all. I also enjoy the battlezones once in awhile.
And it doesn't bother you that the opponents in Advanced just melt away, and on Normal are basically just target practice?
Not all of us put effort into min/max. If you grind and gear for elites, yes, the normal stuff will be target practice. For me, with my Mark XI-XII very rare gear and loads of characters, Normal is just fine.
As for the data given...the issue is that the way the sample is collected is flawed for a general population view. It takes a view of a map that is favored by DPS chasers. It is only collecting from a data sample that DPS chasers comes in contact with. It is not what the average playerbase looks like. It COULD be...but if it was, it would only be so by shear coincedence and not because of the data model. The data model basically does not apply. Going well it's the ONLY data so we will apply it to EVERYTHING is not how you do these things. Might wanna learn some basic statistical modeling before you claim to be on the side of global climate change scientists and calling those who have issue with what you did because it breaks so many statistical modeling rules that it isn't even funny the deniers who claim because I said so. We actually have math and logic and science on our side. You basically are saying it is so because we have no other data so damn everything else. That ain't far off from the data is wrong because it doesn't fit my own observation (which BTW is a data point).
The only thing I can agree in this paragraph is the fact that the data is collected around one queue, ISA. As such the data is relevant about the population that runs ISA only.
Also, it is the convention of the STO Community to use ISA as the basis of measuring your DPS output for comparison to others. And in that context, can be applied to the STO community at large as an overall measuring stick of DPS capability. The amount of data collected is enough to make it statistically relevant to this population.
No...it is a convention of the DPS community of STO to use ISA as the basis for measuring DPS output for comparison. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the DPS community is the same as the STO community. And yes, such arogance is why there are people in the STO community who HATE the DPS community. In fact I refused to join the DPS channels for so long because of views like yours. I did end up joining because...well the queues are dead enough where I wanted more people to play with when I have more time to play...but seriously...no...just no. Your DPS centric map with your DPS centric data can not be used for any relivance for the general population of STO. The sad fact is...there is no hard data about what the average STO player does because cryptic ain't sharing and nobody bothered to try and collect a good sample of what people out there in STO does. That would mean we would need to collect data in RAs (which is the most common queues run by a LONG shot) along with getting DPS records from people playing mission on their own at random. Than we need to get a baseline of what the various DPS people do in those situations so we can get some sort of factor to adjust the data we get so we can convert the collected data into something we could compare to ISA DPS data. Without all of that, we really have no hard way to say what DPS the average STO player is doing beyond acedotal evidence provided by individuals. And going by ancedotal evidence, we have WAY more people saying that the STO population DPS on average is pretty low over those that say that it is pretty high...which 10+k DPS actually is since that is good enough for advanced queues.
^^^ 100% THIS!!!
We may not see eye to eye all the time, dude, but when you're right, you're right
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
[...]I play STO because I want to have fun, not constantly respawn because my ship isn't geared for elite queues (and I can't be bothered to even try to gear it, even IF I had the means, which I don't).
I prefer to run some RAs when I need marks. They're more fun and I don't 'die' as much, if at all. I also enjoy the battlezones once in awhile.
And it doesn't bother you that the opponents in Advanced just melt away, and on Normal are basically just target practice?
Not all of us put effort into min/max. If you grind and gear for elites, yes, the normal stuff will be target practice. For me, with my Mark XI-XII purple gear and loads of characters, Normal is just fine.
It's not that hard to get geared for elite. I have no issues if you don't want to play elite...but claiming that you can't get there with really what is minimal effort is just false. Okay okay...so doing it for like 30 toons can get a bit grindy...but for the 1-5 you main? Yeah...not that hard or long to do it. And despite what people think, you don't need epic gear to do it.
You're missing the point. I'm not saying it's too much trouble to gear for elites. I'm saying that I don't bother gearing for elites, because I don't have fun playing elites. As for getting advanced gear with minimal effort, I don't do team content. That pretty much leaves reputation, which takes me ages. Yes, a few pieces of Mark XIII ultra-rare items have trickled in for my main character. Not enough to ruin the Normal content for me.
[...]
And no, 10k dps per player, while enough to get the optionals, is NOT a smooth ride, since you can still **** up a lot in this queue...and when somebody **** up...a 50k dps team just won't be able to iron out even tiny trigger mistakes. Same goes with normal, a 15k dps group is hard work, doable, sure, but not at all a smooth ride. Not even sure where you get these arbitrary numbers anyway...your guts apparently, as your whole opinions seem to be based on "feelings" and subjective observation of a queue you seem not to play too often anyway.
Uh. Bring a TBR and the queue is a piece of cake at any team dps if your own ship is at least Mk XII-geared and properly built. You just push back the nanite spheres until the team is done with the transformator.
sorry but that is a level of soffistication you get from DPS channel groups, but not from most individuals in the public queue. And thanks captain obvious for pointing out the obvious, unfortunately the individuals who could profit from your advise will never come to the forum and therefore will never have the pleasure of your revelations.
Since my last answer to coldnapalm seems to have been eaten by the forum, and I have no intention to rewrite it, I just want to point out that everything coldnapalm uses to discredit the graph presented in this thread is actually refuted by the graph itself.
How could it be that the graph shows a very high population of low dpsers, if what he claims is only a samplesize out of mostly DPSers? If the data was really mostly from runs with 5 out of 5 high dps players, why does it show that most players are below the DPS channel thrashold?
Since my last answer to coldnapalm seems to have been eaten by the forum, and I have no intention to rewrite it, I just want to point out that everything coldnapalm uses to discredit the graph presented in this thread is actually refuted by the graph itself.
How could it be that the graph shows a very high population of low dpsers, if what he claims is only a samplesize out of mostly DPSers? If the data was really mostly from runs with 5 out of 5 high dps players, why does it show that most players are below the DPS channel thrashold?
Perhaps there were people in that instance who were being carried, rather than carrying their own water... Trying to discredit the observation, fails, because it's a valid one: The graph's a flawed sample, because it was taken in an instance used primarily by DPSers. Anyone who knows a mission inside out, and who can hit each checkpoint and target on autopilot, is going to achieve a better score than someone who isn't so familiar with it, and, everyone attempting said instance, is more likely to be a DPSChaser, so the use of ISA as a benchmark instance, is flawed. As coldnapalm said, to get accurate views of DPS output across the playerbase, parses need to be run in many different instances, such as Red Alerts, Deep Space Encounters, even just in regular solo mission replays (my personal favorite to run as a 'test mission', is Stranded in Space. For pure ground, I would suggest Facility 4028) That would give a broader sample size, with a variety of results, and give a more accurate view as to 'player averages'
Sit someone in the middle of Reykjavik, with a questionaire of what language people speak as their first language, and no prizes for guessing what most people there qould be speaking as their first language. Does that mean everyone worldwide speaks Icelandic. Of course not. What it does mean, is that the sample used is biased in one direction, and so not an overall representation of language spoken worldwide
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Some members of my Armada completed Korfez Elite yesterday with a combined dps of approximately 225k. So about 45k per team member. That is definitely doable in a premade, but I would probably still avoid pugs.
Comments
The only thing I can agree in this paragraph is the fact that the data is collected around one queue, ISA. As such the data is relevant about the population that runs ISA only.
Also, it is the convention of the STO Community to use ISA as the basis of measuring your DPS output for comparison to others. And in that context, can be applied to the STO community at large as an overall measuring stick of DPS capability. The amount of data collected is enough to make it statistically relevant to this population.
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Well, that depends on which elites you play...Rhi Station, Bug Hunt, and Viscous Cycle rarely fail while something like Korfez rarely succeeds.
I find the elite ground queues a lot more doable with a pug team. So I agree that. I haven't tried Vicious cycle since the nerf so I will have to take your word on that one.
> It doesn't matter how bad your build is.
> It doesn't matter how bad you think you play.
> It doesn't matter if there are some "I never want to fail, I'll rather not play than fail!" naysayers in your team.
>
> Queue up on Elite. The only way those queues get filled is if people queue up. Publicly. Not in some private group that guarantees a swift victory by overpowering anything the mission. Play with a risk to fail.
>
> And if you get shred to pieces, it doesn't matter. Queue up. You'll enable others to play, you'll possibly have a few glorious moments even then, and even if not, you might find out something about your ship or your captain.
>
> Queue up. On Elite. Publicly.
>
>
>
> (Every replier who misses the point gets a virtual cookie.)
nope
From my experience Undine Infiltration Elite has dead long before the fire extinguisher bug reared it's ugly head. The few times when the queue seem to have revived for a short period of time were mostly ruined by noobs who failed the interrogation part of the mission. One time the mission failed within 10 seconds. Yeah, a mission failed before even a single shot was fired.
The few times the mission was a success in 2016 and 2017 was when players actually listened to me when I told them not to attempt to interrogate anyone if the do not know how to do it. I would complete that part of the mission myself if necessary.
I play the elite queues that I can manage on a pug. I'm not one of the top five* players - not by a long shot - so I've given up entirely on the likes of Korfez.
*Not percentile. The way Korfez is now you'd probably have to be one of the literal top five to stand a better than even chance.
No.
It doesn't matter whether I'm capable of doing it or not. I play the game to have fun, and I don't have fun doing raids.
That is, for those days when for some reason you don't already hit the quota with Admiralty.
This. I play STO because I want to have fun, not constantly respawn because my ship isn't geared for elite queues (and I can't be bothered to even try to gear it, even IF I had the means, which I don't).
I prefer to run some RAs when I need marks. They're more fun and I don't 'die' as much, if at all. I also enjoy the battlezones once in awhile.
Who doesn't want Space Barbie like this??
Capt. Vaana Lanza 'Kirking it up'
Or like these??
But on the topic; No thank you, for several reasons...
-> I only have one build (out of many) which has all UR gear, and that's a definite Glass Cannon: I'm not bringing a knife to a gun fight, and I'm definitely not spending to upgrade this, or any other build, just to be 'within the threshold', for the following reasons:
-> Toxicity of the playerbase. I keep Chat minimized anyway, but I'd rather not be the reason for someone with Space-Rage to lose their sh*t and start screeching...
-> Hard Fail Conditions. I'm not someone who thinks 'If I don't try, I can't lose...', and I don't mind not completing an objective first time every time without a need to respawn (If I was, Kirkette, there, would not have accepted the No Captain challenge
-> Completel lack of interest in the rewards. With a few exceptions, I don't do Reputation. Those exceptions are, Romulan (ie getting it up to Level 3 to unlock the next missions on New Romulus, and Terran (because I keep hearing that the Terran Warp Core is The Business, so I want to try one for myself...)
So in all honesty, there's no reason for me to queue up for the content...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Not all of us put effort into min/max. If you grind and gear for elites, yes, the normal stuff will be target practice. For me, with my Mark XI-XII very rare gear and loads of characters, Normal is just fine.
We may not see eye to eye all the time, dude, but when you're right, you're right
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
You're missing the point. I'm not saying it's too much trouble to gear for elites. I'm saying that I don't bother gearing for elites, because I don't have fun playing elites. As for getting advanced gear with minimal effort, I don't do team content. That pretty much leaves reputation, which takes me ages. Yes, a few pieces of Mark XIII ultra-rare items have trickled in for my main character. Not enough to ruin the Normal content for me.
sorry but that is a level of soffistication you get from DPS channel groups, but not from most individuals in the public queue. And thanks captain obvious for pointing out the obvious, unfortunately the individuals who could profit from your advise will never come to the forum and therefore will never have the pleasure of your revelations.
How could it be that the graph shows a very high population of low dpsers, if what he claims is only a samplesize out of mostly DPSers? If the data was really mostly from runs with 5 out of 5 high dps players, why does it show that most players are below the DPS channel thrashold?
Sit someone in the middle of Reykjavik, with a questionaire of what language people speak as their first language, and no prizes for guessing what most people there qould be speaking as their first language. Does that mean everyone worldwide speaks Icelandic. Of course not. What it does mean, is that the sample used is biased in one direction, and so not an overall representation of language spoken worldwide
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth