Only reason I'd consider doing elite queues is that they give more of the Elite Marks and those are a pain to get. I don't chase DPS. I'm not here to conquer Everest, I'm here to have fun. My minimum gear goal is VR or UR Mk 14s. I'll try for the better stats but I'll use whatever comes my way. I do my best in an STF but don't have the time or desire to spend millions on getting the epic gear with the best combination of mods. I like using the special consoles of ships even though I know those are generally sub-optimal or downright crappy. I don't care if someone posts the DPS in the group chat. I find it interesting even if the parsers aren't perfect.
It's more that you get those elitist players in the group that are either rude to others; saying they suck or whatnot. (assuming the others are doing their best and not just AFKing or griefing) or bail the instant something goes slightly wrong leaving the 4 other players to have little chance to not fail.
I too have ranted at my screen about a player doing something stupid, but unless it's obviously an AKFer or someone purposely sabotaging the run, I keep my opinion to myself and stick it out through the whole run. Anyway... I think a lot play with the chat box closed so ranting in group chat about it is only seen by the other players in the group.
It also doesn't help that in pugs there is zero communication, so if someone doesn't know 'how to do it' their only way to learn it is to fail STFs many times till they figure it out.
Problem is Elite Space mostly cause they've made it far to difficult even for 95% of player base. Elite ground is something else entirely - as many end game players with Mk XIV Ultra or better gear had a fair chance at success...
Elite Space however they've taken to the level of being a bit absurd. An Advanced Space mission offers almost if not more challenge than many Elite Ground missions... Honestly I think the biggest reason many queue's are so quite is solely because they've made far too many too difficult in my opinion.
While people can play the normal queue's those aren't as busy either simply because they don't offer any REP token's you get in Advanced or Elite runs.
I don’t think that elite space maps are too difficult. Not from a challenge point of view. I made numerous HSE runs with my fleet and the moment a group sums up 150k (so 30k/player) the timer can be beaten. I don’t know the figures for the other maps as far as the DPS checks are concerned but technically far more players in game than you think can do most of them. Judging from the DPS data given and with the exception of fez it would not surprise me if 25% of the players who happened to have been parsed in ISA have a fair shot at most them.
The only thing that makes them difficult, and much more difficult than elite grounds, is economic aspects. The combination of hard DPS checks linked to fails together with minute long, tedious tasks to do is what makes them to be simply ignored by everybody. In my opinion most ground maps have a much more appealing stage design as well. Few hard DPS checks, more soft DPS checks where alternatives are given; Time gates more fun integrated in the terrain to cover instead of do something stupid for X minutes.
Adding to that a cost comparison between ground and space builds is what settles the situation. You simply get more for your buck on ground and that from all perspectives, hence why more peeps go for it.
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Problem is Elite Space mostly cause they've made it far to difficult even for 95% of player base. Elite ground is something else entirely - as many end game players with Mk XIV Ultra or better gear had a fair chance at success...
Elite Space however they've taken to the level of being a bit absurd. An Advanced Space mission offers almost if not more challenge than many Elite Ground missions... Honestly I think the biggest reason many queue's are so quite is solely because they've made far too many too difficult in my opinion.
While people can play the normal queue's those aren't as busy either simply because they don't offer any REP token's you get in Advanced or Elite runs.
Players are just as much to blame, so many refuse to improve and just queue up to be carried. Some people must just target something and autofire...had a infected advanced where one player did 2k dps and one did 4k...people refuse to listen...you ask them to help with the objectives and they flat out ignore you.
Had it a few times where you try and help someone and they basically say "F-U...I'll do it how I want".
So what we conclude from this is that the average DPS Masturbator clocks in at 10-30K. This, however, does not reflect the makeup of the playerbase at ALL
Spot on. People here are vastly over-estimating the damage capability of the average player. Well under 10K would be closer to reality. Many don't even hit 1K. Making assumptions based on ISA, and the tiny subset of players that happen to get captured by a logger, is crazy.
DPS doesn't really matter for most of the game. But asking those players to queue for Elites is nonsensical. They may try, but when they get insta-gibbed, and don't know why, they aren't going to do it again. People like to win, and get something for it. Repeatedly failing and getting nothing is, literally, madness.
Also feel I should note that DPS score in ISA doesn't necessarily translate well to other STF's.
The problem with DPS being the be-all-end-all is that, whilst it IS, there are other ways of contributing (keeping in mind this is Elite content we're discussing).
I mean, I only do approx 20k in my Rhode Island torpedo boat in ISA. So with that in mind, how is it that I can hold my own in Elite content? Not saying I am great at it - but by use of sci abilities (predominently drain) I certainly make myself useful to the team and I can usually keep myself alive - which means I can help keep other team members alive.
Quite. The healer is a much under-estimated class in this game. DPS isn't that relevant if you can tank for days. But generally, someone putting out 1K isn't going to be able to deal with 10K incoming, which is why suggesting they queue for all Elite runs is crazy talk. They will annoy themselves and everyone else.
Anyone can queue for whatever they want of course, but I think most people would rather succeed and get rewards, than make repeated futile attempts with no reward.
Problem is Elite Space mostly cause they've made it far to difficult even for 95% of player base. Elite ground is something else entirely - as many end game players with Mk XIV Ultra or better gear had a fair chance at success...
Elite Space however they've taken to the level of being a bit absurd. An Advanced Space mission offers almost if not more challenge than many Elite Ground missions... Honestly I think the biggest reason many queue's are so quite is solely because they've made far too many too difficult in my opinion.
While people can play the normal queue's those aren't as busy either simply because they don't offer any REP token's you get in Advanced or Elite runs.
I'm sorry...but what?!? Elite can be done very much so with mark XIV VR/UR items just fine. I have ships that can do 20% or more of a sucessful elite map with such gear. And they ain't even the lockbox/lobi items either. Just fleet and mission and crafted gear. Advanced mission is a joke that can be soloed by what this game deems to be good players...but in the gaming world would be classified as average to poor gamers. Hell I suck at games and I can solo most of the advanced maps. That ain't right.
yeah, as if gear has anything to do with difficulty at this point...hell I could put most STO players into a maximum geared, maximum specced ship and they'd still only do 10k DPS.
You are correct in your statements, but you completely ignore the fellow in front of the keyboard who is the source of the utter failure.
Consider the player and not the gear and strathkin's statement is spot on.
Another reason why this graph is almost certainly correct: The devs pretty much design the encounters around this DPS bracket...seriously. If you think about it, they definately have data on that too, and the fact that we see encounters coming out specifically designed around the curve we see in that graph should be evidence enough that those are accurate numbers concerning the player base.
Also, what I have read up to now from those trying to dispute the graph are more or less opinions based on subjective observation...saying that this graph makes you biased, so you can't really see the actual truth, is literally the same argument climate change deniers use to dispute the numbers from actual studies on the climate.
"Your data is wrong because I say so and it doesn't fit my own observation" is pretty much their argument here. Being sceptical is one thing, but to just deny evidence in favour of one's own opinion is a sign of ignorance and stubborness.
Obviously Cryptic is designing their difficulties around similar numbers.
I am not ignoring the player. I said I am a terrible gamer and I can do elite just fine. Other games, it's easy mode only for me. You'd basically have to not even try to do worse than me. And that was my point...this playerbase doesn't try. It's not the gear needed that makes it hard for people to do elite. I can come up with a build a brand new f2p player with no money spent can put together in about 6 months time of playing like an hour or two a day to get elite ready. And anyone who has been at this game for any length of time can get together in like a week or less. Getting elite gear with no money spent as a fresh new player is piddly time for an MMO to do the hardest content in the game.
As for the data given...the issue is that the way the sample is collected is flawed for a general population view. It takes a view of a map that is favored by DPS chasers. It is only collecting from a data sample that DPS chasers comes in contact with. It is not what the average playerbase looks like. It COULD be...but if it was, it would only be so by shear coincedence and not because of the data model. The data model basically does not apply. Going well it's the ONLY data so we will apply it to EVERYTHING is not how you do these things. Might wanna learn some basic statistical modeling before you claim to be on the side of global climate change scientists and calling those who have issue with what you did because it breaks so many statistical modeling rules that it isn't even funny the deniers who claim because I said so. We actually have math and logic and science on our side. You basically are saying it is so because we have no other data so damn everything else. That ain't far off from the data is wrong because it doesn't fit my own observation (which BTW is a data point).
And no, cryptic is NOT designing content around those numbers. Normal content...i.e. what you should NORMALLY be playing at as a NORMAL player is being made for like 3k DPSers to be able to complete. ADVANCED content is centered around that number. Guess what DPS chasers are.
sorry but you are just throwing around numbers and assumptions you are convinced of, nothing more. Unless you can actually back up your opinion with data, I'd go with the data that is presented to me.
For example, you give an arbitrary number of 3k dps for normal queues...well, how do you back that up? because 5 people doing 3k dps each in even normal queues will have a hard time and might not complete any optional.
And as I said before, my experience in public queues goes absolutely contrary to yours.
What do you base your math and logic on, so far all you presented is your opinion, extrapolated to fit your preconception of the game and the playerbase. That's at least what I read in your statements...literally zero provable data sets.
So yes, excuse me if I prefer to stick with the data, that seems to match more or less how the game difficulty is designed ( know you are disputing also this point, but you do it also without any shred of evidence, so whatever)
Please help me out. I’m currently not familiar with many elite space maps where such an approach would not lead to a certain fail. In most you get either a direct fail condition offered by saying remove X amount of hit points in y amount of seconds or an indirect one where mission assets need to be protected (leading to a similar task).
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Problem is Elite Space mostly cause they've made it far to difficult even for 95% of player base. Elite ground is something else entirely - as many end game players with Mk XIV Ultra or better gear had a fair chance at success...
Elite Space however they've taken to the level of being a bit absurd. An Advanced Space mission offers almost if not more challenge than many Elite Ground missions... Honestly I think the biggest reason many queue's are so quite is solely because they've made far too many too difficult in my opinion.
While people can play the normal queue's those aren't as busy either simply because they don't offer any REP token's you get in Advanced or Elite runs.
I'm sorry...but what?!? Elite can be done very much so with mark XIV VR/UR items just fine. I have ships that can do 20% or more of a sucessful elite map with such gear. And they ain't even the lockbox/lobi items either. Just fleet and mission and crafted gear. Advanced mission is a joke that can be soloed by what this game deems to be good players...but in the gaming world would be classified as average to poor gamers. Hell I suck at games and I can solo most of the advanced maps. That ain't right.
Problem is Elite Space mostly cause they've made it far to difficult even for 95% of player base. Elite ground is something else entirely - as many end game players with Mk XIV Ultra or better gear had a fair chance at success...
Elite Space however they've taken to the level of being a bit absurd. An Advanced Space mission offers almost if not more challenge than many Elite Ground missions... Honestly I think the biggest reason many queue's are so quite is solely because they've made far too many too difficult in my opinion.
While people can play the normal queue's those aren't as busy either simply because they don't offer any REP token's you get in Advanced or Elite runs.
I don’t think that elite space maps are too difficult. Not from a challenge point of view. I made numerous HSE runs with my fleet and the moment a group sums up 150k (so 30k/player) the timer can be beaten. I don’t know the figures for the other maps as far as the DPS checks are concerned but technically far more players in game than you think can do most of them. Judging from the DPS data given and with the exception of fez it would not surprise me if 25% of the players who happened to have been parsed in ISA have a fair shot at most them.
The only thing that makes them difficult, and much more difficult than elite grounds, is economic aspects. The combination of hard DPS checks linked to fails together with minute long, tedious tasks to do is what makes them to be simply ignored by everybody. In my opinion most ground maps have a much more appealing stage design as well. Few hard DPS checks, more soft DPS checks where alternatives are given; Time gates more fun integrated in the terrain to cover instead of do something stupid for X minutes.
Adding to that a cost comparison between ground and space builds is what settles the situation. You simply get more for your buck on ground and that from all perspectives, hence why more peeps go for it.
I haven't tried HSE since the "balance pass" so I can't really speak to the dps needed for that one, but Korfez Elite cannot be beat with 5 players doing 30k dps I promise you that. You need 5 players doing at least 75k+. I've tried to pug it a few times with a fleetmate and we can no longer get past the first wave let alone come close to beating it. Both of us can do 100k+ dps ourselves, but I think the handful of times we attempted it I personally had trouble just destroying a handful of ships.
Please help me out. I’m currently not familiar with many elite space maps where such an approach would not lead to a certain fail. In most you get either a direct fail condition offered by saying remove X amount of hit points in y amount of seconds or an indirect one where mission assets need to be protected (leading to a similar task).
Yeah that's an ignorant statement by altran considering that nearly all missions are on some kind of timer and even if you can "tank for days" the timer will expire at some point and you will fail the mission.
I haven't tried HSE since the "balance pass" so I can't really speak to the dps needed for that one, but Korfez Elite cannot be beat with 5 players doing 30k dps I promise you that. You need 5 players doing at least 75k+. I've tried to pug it a few times with a fleetmate and we can no longer get past the first wave let alone come close to beating it. Both of us can do 100k+ dps ourselves, but I think the handful of times we attempted it I personally had trouble just destroying a handful of ships.
Yo, post S13 Fez I agree on 75k roughly. I did it only with the TSC one time since then and we made it.
Here is the video Tune & Eli made. While they used thier sci builds I picked the scim I use for ISA splits in Diamond with Feli.
HSE is not that tough if you build ur ship to be able to take some beating. 30k is anything else but smooth sayling there but enough to get the timer barly done. I tested that a few times with the peeps from my fleet where all kinds of mixed players between 10k and open end are welcome to join. The less DPS you round up with your team the more tougher it gets with less than 150k in sum most likely leading to a fail.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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IMO, nothing at the highest difficulty setting in the game is even capable of being "too difficult." Not unless it's literally impossible to succeed by any means. In a game with multiple difficulty levels, the purpose of the highest level is to be as hard as possible.
But then it's also meant to be rewarding enough that improving your build and learning strategies to overcome the difficulty is worth it. Which in STO, the promised land of Easy Mode quickie rewards, it most certainly isn't.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Elite rewards just aren't interesting. They only mitigate a grind for another grind and it's not that much of a mitigation. Advanced is good enough for me since I'll never be top 1% dps performance guru even cheesing it in a T6 AP scimitar setup.
Um, no. I play this game to have fun and Elite STFs are not fun. I've only just gotten to where I can pull 10k dps on my ships. I'm no dps chaser anyway and there's no way I'm spending the time or money (virtual or otherwise) to rank up the 50k+ of the lowest dps chasers.
If I do any stf it will be normal/advanced or the RAs. I've had enough ragging from others waving their epeens to not want to give them another target.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Not doing elite queues because I do not like afk penalties. With no hope of getting any reward and knowing I will be penalized for even trying, there is zero reason for me to pursue elite queues.
It would be nice to try, I could use the marks and mats. And I sympathize with the plight of not enough people playing them. Not going to happen till something makes them approachable. What that may be, I don't know. Maybe I magically get better at playing (probably not), maybe the afk penalty becomes sane (not holding my breath).
I find advanced is just fine. Plus I hear/see the word parsing and elite far too often and I can't be bothered with some nerd fiddling with himself over a load of numbers whilst slurping vague utterances through his retainer. Zone chat is bad enough.
> @sisteric said:
> sophlogimo wrote: »
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> That is still warped, because most players will never show up in that statistic.
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> A Statistically significant number of the player base is in that chart. So makes the chart statistically accurate for this discussion.
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> No, because the selection is biased.
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> Biased only to those that play ISA. The system in which that data is pulled is not strictly of DPS League players. But of any player that got recorded using that software in that specific Queue. Non DPSers will be recorded in that effort. And the number of non-DPSers recorded is significantly large enough to be statistically relavent and be considered statistically accurate representation of the entire player base.
It is biased...because it is getting at least 20% of the player who cares enough abput dps to parse. ISA run where there is nobody parsing does not get uploaded so not represented...and that is before we even get into the biased player base of the queue. So not a statistically accurate model...by a long shot.
If your concerned about the level of Bias based on Intent...there is no way to collect that data with the software. So there is no way to account for Bias based on intent for the need of the Data. I do know that a Non-DPSer can collect and upload such data. I have done this. And my intent was only to see where I was at when compared to others. I did it completely out of curiosity. I do it maybe once or twice a year where I make several run to get a semi-refined view of what I am doing. But my build are based purely on what I like to do in the game and how I like to play.
Also, the purpose of statisics is to collect enough information to extrapolate what the entire population data based on a limited number of data points. The fact that some people are not recording their ISA runs is very reason why we have to do Statistics to make sense of the data that has been collected in order to generate some informed facts about the population as a whole.
SO unless you can present data that shows that people are purposely poisioning the data from the majority of the recorded runs, your argument is not valid for this level of data collection.
Comments
It's more that you get those elitist players in the group that are either rude to others; saying they suck or whatnot. (assuming the others are doing their best and not just AFKing or griefing) or bail the instant something goes slightly wrong leaving the 4 other players to have little chance to not fail.
I too have ranted at my screen about a player doing something stupid, but unless it's obviously an AKFer or someone purposely sabotaging the run, I keep my opinion to myself and stick it out through the whole run. Anyway... I think a lot play with the chat box closed so ranting in group chat about it is only seen by the other players in the group.
It also doesn't help that in pugs there is zero communication, so if someone doesn't know 'how to do it' their only way to learn it is to fail STFs many times till they figure it out.
I don’t think that elite space maps are too difficult. Not from a challenge point of view. I made numerous HSE runs with my fleet and the moment a group sums up 150k (so 30k/player) the timer can be beaten. I don’t know the figures for the other maps as far as the DPS checks are concerned but technically far more players in game than you think can do most of them. Judging from the DPS data given and with the exception of fez it would not surprise me if 25% of the players who happened to have been parsed in ISA have a fair shot at most them.
The only thing that makes them difficult, and much more difficult than elite grounds, is economic aspects. The combination of hard DPS checks linked to fails together with minute long, tedious tasks to do is what makes them to be simply ignored by everybody. In my opinion most ground maps have a much more appealing stage design as well. Few hard DPS checks, more soft DPS checks where alternatives are given; Time gates more fun integrated in the terrain to cover instead of do something stupid for X minutes.
Adding to that a cost comparison between ground and space builds is what settles the situation. You simply get more for your buck on ground and that from all perspectives, hence why more peeps go for it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Players are just as much to blame, so many refuse to improve and just queue up to be carried. Some people must just target something and autofire...had a infected advanced where one player did 2k dps and one did 4k...people refuse to listen...you ask them to help with the objectives and they flat out ignore you.
Had it a few times where you try and help someone and they basically say "F-U...I'll do it how I want".
Spot on. People here are vastly over-estimating the damage capability of the average player. Well under 10K would be closer to reality. Many don't even hit 1K. Making assumptions based on ISA, and the tiny subset of players that happen to get captured by a logger, is crazy.
DPS doesn't really matter for most of the game. But asking those players to queue for Elites is nonsensical. They may try, but when they get insta-gibbed, and don't know why, they aren't going to do it again. People like to win, and get something for it. Repeatedly failing and getting nothing is, literally, madness.
I think you get cookies from me for a change. Why can’t every player in game simply share this attitude?
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Quite. The healer is a much under-estimated class in this game. DPS isn't that relevant if you can tank for days. But generally, someone putting out 1K isn't going to be able to deal with 10K incoming, which is why suggesting they queue for all Elite runs is crazy talk. They will annoy themselves and everyone else.
Anyone can queue for whatever they want of course, but I think most people would rather succeed and get rewards, than make repeated futile attempts with no reward.
sorry but you are just throwing around numbers and assumptions you are convinced of, nothing more. Unless you can actually back up your opinion with data, I'd go with the data that is presented to me.
For example, you give an arbitrary number of 3k dps for normal queues...well, how do you back that up? because 5 people doing 3k dps each in even normal queues will have a hard time and might not complete any optional.
And as I said before, my experience in public queues goes absolutely contrary to yours.
What do you base your math and logic on, so far all you presented is your opinion, extrapolated to fit your preconception of the game and the playerbase. That's at least what I read in your statements...literally zero provable data sets.
So yes, excuse me if I prefer to stick with the data, that seems to match more or less how the game difficulty is designed ( know you are disputing also this point, but you do it also without any shred of evidence, so whatever)
Please help me out. I’m currently not familiar with many elite space maps where such an approach would not lead to a certain fail. In most you get either a direct fail condition offered by saying remove X amount of hit points in y amount of seconds or an indirect one where mission assets need to be protected (leading to a similar task).
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I haven't tried HSE since the "balance pass" so I can't really speak to the dps needed for that one, but Korfez Elite cannot be beat with 5 players doing 30k dps I promise you that. You need 5 players doing at least 75k+. I've tried to pug it a few times with a fleetmate and we can no longer get past the first wave let alone come close to beating it. Both of us can do 100k+ dps ourselves, but I think the handful of times we attempted it I personally had trouble just destroying a handful of ships.
No thank you, I'd rather not.
Yeah that's an ignorant statement by altran considering that nearly all missions are on some kind of timer and even if you can "tank for days" the timer will expire at some point and you will fail the mission.
Yo, post S13 Fez I agree on 75k roughly. I did it only with the TSC one time since then and we made it.
Here is the video Tune & Eli made. While they used thier sci builds I picked the scim I use for ISA splits in Diamond with Feli.
HSE is not that tough if you build ur ship to be able to take some beating. 30k is anything else but smooth sayling there but enough to get the timer barly done. I tested that a few times with the peeps from my fleet where all kinds of mixed players between 10k and open end are welcome to join. The less DPS you round up with your team the more tougher it gets with less than 150k in sum most likely leading to a fail.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
But then it's also meant to be rewarding enough that improving your build and learning strategies to overcome the difficulty is worth it. Which in STO, the promised land of Easy Mode quickie rewards, it most certainly isn't.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If I do any stf it will be normal/advanced or the RAs. I've had enough ragging from others waving their epeens to not want to give them another target.
It would be nice to try, I could use the marks and mats. And I sympathize with the plight of not enough people playing them. Not going to happen till something makes them approachable. What that may be, I don't know. Maybe I magically get better at playing (probably not), maybe the afk penalty becomes sane (not holding my breath).
If your concerned about the level of Bias based on Intent...there is no way to collect that data with the software. So there is no way to account for Bias based on intent for the need of the Data. I do know that a Non-DPSer can collect and upload such data. I have done this. And my intent was only to see where I was at when compared to others. I did it completely out of curiosity. I do it maybe once or twice a year where I make several run to get a semi-refined view of what I am doing. But my build are based purely on what I like to do in the game and how I like to play.
Also, the purpose of statisics is to collect enough information to extrapolate what the entire population data based on a limited number of data points. The fact that some people are not recording their ISA runs is very reason why we have to do Statistics to make sense of the data that has been collected in order to generate some informed facts about the population as a whole.
SO unless you can present data that shows that people are purposely poisioning the data from the majority of the recorded runs, your argument is not valid for this level of data collection.
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