Canon soucres are mixed on torps bypassing shields. If the plot demanded, they went through shield to the hull. And I am not talking generations movie. Plenty of shots that were absorbed by shields and plenty where most damage went right through. Of course that usually happens when they want to kill someone with the highest cause of death in star trek: the exploding console.
“And without using them...how do you spawn 50+ mines again? No seriously. Mines...real ones...have a long shared cooldown.”
Without the clusters I have 6 mine launchers and 6 mine dispersal patterns running none stop which I already explained to you. The clusters are only a minor part of the mine deployment system.
They are both torpedoes and mine launchers in 1 weapon. They fire a torpedo and drop a series of mines. That doesn’t make them a pure torpedo launcher. It makes them a hybrid torp/mine weapon. Given that the core mine stuff works on clusters and that mines are created they are perfectly valid to use on a mine boat and still be called a mine boat.
I don’t really care about your silly arbitrary rules. It’s clear that mine boats work and that you are wrong in saying you cannot make a mine boat. A mine boat is about putting mines in space. It doesn’t matter how you do that as long as that’s what you are doing. I have a single energy weapon fitted as it boosts the mines defence, boost mines damage and spawns mines. That’s still a valid fit for a mine boat. You can remove the energy weapon and clusters if you really want to and still have a valid mine boat that works.
If you want to stick to pointless arbitrary rules that's your problem not mine. I am going to keep using my mine layer build despite you pretending it doesn't work or count. Although I am wondering what do you call my ship that does almost zero torp damage puts out 100's of mines and does sustained mine DPS. Apparently its not a mine layer build!!!
lordsteve1 the servers are down now I will try and post my mine build in the mine layer thread I linked to. I don’t want to derail this tread with mine boat builds and designs.
EDIT: A side effect of playing a mine boat is ACC is completely useless. You can free up the skill points that boost ACC and put them in something else. Mines don't have ACC and don't factor in ACC or overflow. They just auto hit, zero misses if in explosion range.
I call BS on the first part. Dispersal patters have a global of 15 seconds and affect only the next mine. Great that is 8 mines you tossed out. You MAYBE able to toss out 4 more with the mines shared cooldown to toss out 4 more. That's 12. You can't get more than that on an attack run before your mines start to explode. So you literally can't do this without resorting to torps, consoles and things that are not MINES...or you do what a real mine layer would do...which is to mine an area to hell and have things come into it. However that playstyle only works in solo play as any group content will be over by the time you have put down enough mines. So...yeah 50 mines without those torps is pure BS.
As for why those items are not mines...because they are NOT MINES. You can use whatever the hell you want, but if you are using mostly torps and and consoles to lay down mines instead of actual mine weapons, that isn't being honest with a mine boat. A mine layer...sure...but you have yet to show me that a real mine boat...one that ONLY uses mine weapons is viable. You have showns that a combination of consoles, mines and torpedoes can be made to be okayish. Just like you can make an okayish boat that is a tact sci hybrid using a mix of beams, cannons, torps and mines. That doesn't prove that any of those components maybe weak and need a bit more help than others.
Well you have a history of calling BS on things that are true and correct but you misunderstand. Not only have I already explained how I had 6 mine launchers dropping mines without clusters but I gave a link to another thread explaining it. 5 launchers at the same time with 5 Dispersal patterns at the same time is a lot more than 8 mines being tossed out. Now I did say 6 launchers and 6 dispersal patterns but the 6th and only the 6th has a part cooldown crossover on my build. Then on top of this add the other weapons which produce mines but you do not want to count as mines and you hit the 100’s of mines out.
I have already explained twice how I did this and gave a link to a thread explaining more so given that and along with how you got so confused in the last thread between sci and cruisers ships and confused between the best sci consoles I am not wasting time explaining this again. Just because you do not understand something doesn’t means its BS.
My mine layer is a real mine boat. A mine boat is a ship that produces a vast amount of mines and does its main damage by mines. The simple fact is 100% of the weapon slots on my ship are producing mines, doing mine damage and boosted by mine tactical consoles. That’s a mine boat no matter what silly arbitrary rules you create. So you are wrong in saying mine boats cannot be created.
“but you have yet to show me that a real mine boat...one that ONLY uses mine weapons is viable.”
Yes I have. If the weapon does mine damage, is boosted by mine tactical consoles, works with mine powers, is recorded in the damage logs as a mine it’s a mine weapon. Only you could call that not a mine weapon.
I didn't fail to show anything. You failed to read what I put and created arbitrary rules to say a weapon that does 100% mine damage and is boosted by mine stuff is not a mine weapon. Anyway its very clear how I had 100's of mines in the field, I am not explaining it again. Go back and read. Its a mine boat and viable no matter how silly rules you create.
I am not doing anything to global cool down which you would realise if you bothered to read my posts. Based on this thread and the other threads you clearly have some sort of problem with reading. Everything you have asked for has been explained multiple times including how to spam a large amount of mines without clusters. If you want an answer go back and read the thread again as its clearly explained right down to the ships and key items both in this thread and the other thread I linked to. I am not wasting time explaining again, you have had two explanations, I am not doing a 3rd.
This is like the time you couldn't understand I was flying a Exotic based Cruiser despite me clearly explaining.
"which are not boosted by dispersal pattern but boosted by concentrate firepower mind you are mines and not torps. "
They are mines and torps together in one weapon. Why is that so hard for you to understand? They are clearly mine based weapons that deal 100% mine damage and the fact you refuse to admit that shows you are the one full of BS.
How can a weapon that deals 0% torp damage, deploys mines and does 100% mine damage and boosted by mine consoles not be classed as a mine weapon?
I am not doing anything to global cool down which you would realise if you bothered to read my posts. Based on this thread and the other threads you clearly have some sort of problem with reading. Everything you have asked for has been explained multiple times including how to spam a large amount of mines without clusters. If you want an answer go back and read the thread again as its clearly explained right down to the ships and key items both in this thread and the other thread I linked to. I am not wasting time explaining again, you have had two explanations, I am not doing a 3rd.
This is like the time you couldn't understand I was flying a Exotic based Cruiser despite me clearly explaining.
"which are not boosted by dispersal pattern but boosted by concentrate firepower mind you are mines and not torps. "
They are mines and torps together in one weapon. Why is that so hard for you to understand? They are clearly mine based weapons that deal 100% mine damage and the fact you refuse to admit that shows you are the one full of BS.
How can a weapon that deals 0% torp damage, deploys mines and does 100% mine damage and boosted by mine consoles not be classed as a mine weapon?
So if you are not doing anything to global, please explain how you unlease 50+ mines using what i classified as mines because that is what you claimed was possible. I conceed that with cluster torps, you can have a viable mine spewing boat...but that is not what I classified as a mine boat. I claim that what I classified as a mine boat is not viable. You claimed it was using 6 disperal patters...which if you can't reduce global is 4 too many...and 6 launchers, you can drop 50+ mines...without doing it for miniutes outside the combat range and luring them in. You have yet to explain in ANY way how you do this. So stop attempting to move the goal post and try to go back to those cluster TORPEDOES...which you are buffing by a TORPEDO BOFF powers and not mine one. So stop stalling. Stop pulling BS. Oh wait, that is all you have ain't it. I mean there is no other reason why you keep trying to go back to those cluster torps. You claimed you can make a viable 50+ mine dropping ship without it...so how? By using 4 extra dispersal patters that does literally nothing because of global cooldowns somehow? You do realize that you are literally showing off how badly you actual know this game now right? Yeah you tossed out BS...running mines...real mines only is not viable despite what you claimed to the contrary (remember you said it was possible). And your "theory" of how to do it is hogwash where you didn't even account for global cooldowns before saying to load up on 6 dispersal patterns. Might wanna give it up now.
It’s all in my older posts on page 2 and again in the link if you bothered to read either you would see how all those extra dispersal patterns don’t suffer from global cooldowns and so there are 50+ mines in space. Then master of the minded controls the mines to hit the chosen target. Although I am sure once you read it you will create more arbitrary pointless rules, to rule it all invalid even though it works. It’s clear you do not want to admit mine boats work or admit that we can have 100’s of mines in space for sustained mine DPS. The fact you say spawning mines and doing mine damage doesn’t count as a mine boat or mine weapons just shows how desperate you are. Anyway take my build I posted twice, removed the clusters and its still a valid workable mine boat.
No goalposts have been moved you just misread what I put and yet again are showing how badly you know the game. Just like you did in the sci thread where you proved yourself clueless.
It’s not claimed, theory or BS. The link proves plenty of other people run similar mine boats although the others tend to favour Kinetic Magnetic over my style. But still mine boats are real and work even if you want to discount them as mine boat due to some silly made up rules that only you use.
I am not going play your stupid game about what you think is a real mine or not. That’s your BS that you can keep. For the rest of us it’s pretty clear what mine is. You’re the one spreading BS about how a mine hitting and doing mine damage is not a real mine and so does not count.
The link proves 50 to 100’s of mines in space is real and works with or without clusters. So keep pretending its all BS while the rest of us enjoy flying mine boats with mass numbers of mines in space.
Well, I totalled up the number of mines a ship could -potentially- put out if everything could be deployed simultaneously (or close to, say in under 10s)
Heavy tachyon mine
Vorgon mine trait (assuming one omni, faw I.. I counted this as two mines)
4x mines (each deploying 4 mines)
Dpb3x2 (a2b build, for arguments sake) - 16 mines each
Harraser drone console (I think they spam chroniton mines, 4 for each of the two drones)
Adv chroniton torp (hyt3 =/= dpb3) - 16 mines
Breen cluster (cluster =/= dpb3) - 16 mines
Vaad cluster (ignored due to impossibility of firing vaad and breen simultaneously)
Elite echentis mine launchers
Elite echentis dpb3 - 16x4 mines
Totalling that up, hypothetically the ship could disgorge 149 mines in a perfect scenario, so 50 mines is potentially possible
edit - brainfarted; I stated 10s duration then added a poer with a 15s gcd, lol ..so either count it as in 15s or 133 mines)
***
That said, this method is basically mine faw with an 'overload' every two minutes which is why I believe for a 'free' mineboat the vorgon Xyfius or the Breen Chell Boalg are superior mine ships
Why? Kinetic Magnet (intel) - as opposed to a mass murder every 2 minutes, kM lets you (double gcd) designate a target every 20s, debuffs their resistance and affects targettable projectiles (thats not to say I don't plan to get that master of the mined for boss eradication)
(Why not command options? Concentrate is good, however you risk having the hyt 'stolen' by allies with torps doing your build no good)
***
As to my setup (Chell Boalg for my build simply as sci/int was pretty useless slot wise compared to tac/int on the Xyfius), I go with 3x pwo and:
Adv chroniton (hyt cluster modes it)
Vaad cluster (not tied to adv chronitons cd, so you can fire both in sequence then km to ensure everything hits)
Harpengh (hits hard, looks great, lethal aoe that propagates and does not eat hyt casts)
Rom hyper plas torp (hits hard if accidently hyt'd, is affected by kinetic magnet, gives you three chances to restore cd)
(Rear is three mines, one on manual deployment (long cd) and a bioneural as why not?)
Its not a pure mine boat, but its great fun for my rom to pootle about in - as to tac consoles, 3x mine and 1 torp (the krenim console for epg too) works well due to the amount of mines in the build
I have always loved torps... and have mostly torp sci, and torpedo bombers forever. I remember testing the brel and was one of the first to build a full torpedo bomber. Since those days Cryptic has done ALOT to make torpedos better. People forget they used to have silly long global cool downs on launchers and its hard to remember life before torpedo doffs. They also added plenty of great gear like the Terran rep console with the -0.5 shared torp cool down. Also they added phasic artillary to the temporal spec to give destructable torp and mine weapons default hit points.
Still there are some major issues with torps... that mostly just come down to most other weapon types being >. Here are my current issues with torps.
- For Canon loving ships like escorts.... flight speed. The simple fact is if you have a proper built canon ship... all but the biggest targets will be dead before your torpedos get there.
- For Beam loving ships like cruisers... firing arc. The only viable cruiser builds with torps are going to have to involve 360 weapons in the rear weapon slots. So a crafted 360 + a mission 360 + a borg cutting beam... after that you can either slot a rep/mission heavy turret and not carry any type of firing buff for it... or perhaps load a mine but a cruiser with mines is not going to be great
- for science ships... torps make the most sense. On a science ship you can debuff targets, strip shields, kill sub system power ect. So torpedo weapons are logical. The main beef here of course is Target sub systems have recently gotten changed for the better.... and now running a science ship with only one beam or a few turrets ect in the back mean the ships free target sub system skills are very weak if not useless. Old target sub only needed one beam to proc... now as a nrg weapon buff a ship with 2-3 energy weapons at most is just not going to work... adding more energy weapons means dropping mines completely, or loosing a front firing weapon. Sci ships with out torp doffs and only 1-2 torps are just not going to provide enough DPS to be considered viable.
My suggestions to make torpedoes even better are simple....
1) to address the main reason they don't get put on escorts, increase their flight speed 2-3x current.
2) to address the issue with cruisers, adjust ALL torps to have 180 degree firing arcs (same as single canons) this will allow broadsiding cruisers to slot one without loosing more DPS then its worth. Also add a new Crafted 260 or perhaps even 360 torpedo. Considering how most escorts now have 2 rear slots and many of the best options only have 1... a 360 torpedo wouldn't be as over powered as it would have been years back when every escort could have slotted a 360 torp in the back.
3) for science ships... change target sub systems to add effects when firing torpedos. Currently each nrg shot with target subs running has a chance to knock system offline and drains a small bit of power (stacking to 10). When firing torps with the Tsub ability up, torps should inflict more drain the base amount and have 3x the chance to disable. So target subs should look like this...
Right now;
Target Shields 1 - Upgrades all energy weapons for 10sec
*6% chance to knock system offline
* drain 4.5 shield power for 10s (stacks max 10 times)
Changed to;
Target Shields 1 - Upgrades all weapons for 10sec
*6% chance to knock system offline with energy weapons 18% chance with torpedos and mines
* drain 4.5 shield power for 10s (stacks max 10 times) torpedo hits under this effect apply 5 stacks.
A change to the flight speed, and firing arc of torpedoes, unless it is tied to them being used on specific ship-types, is that it would also buff them on other ships that don't need the buff. It might be better to take the idea into more of a boff-ability concept, such as giving tactical a new torpedo enhancement buff that buffs the travel speed of torpedoes for a duration, while for engineering having a ability you can toggle on that increases your slotted torpedoes (and maybe even dual/dual heavy cannons) firing arc at the cost of some damage output, placing these in atleast a lt. com or higher seat would make them largely secluded to ships that have these high seats.
A change to the flight speed, and firing arc of torpedoes, unless it is tied to them being used on specific ship-types, is that it would also buff them on other ships that don't need the buff. It might be better to take the idea into more of a boff-ability concept, such as giving tactical a new torpedo enhancement buff that buffs the travel speed of torpedoes for a duration, while for engineering having a ability you can toggle on that increases your slotted torpedoes (and maybe even dual/dual heavy cannons) firing arc at the cost of some damage output, placing these in atleast a lt. com or higher seat would make them largely secluded to ships that have these high seats.
I'm not sure I believe that increasing the speed or firing arc on torpedos would overly advantage any ship class anymore.
I would have agreed a 360 degree torp would be OP for escorts back when escorts where all 4 fore hard points and 3 rear... with raiders loosing one rear. At that point sure there would be little opportunity cost to slotting a 360 in the back. However these days ? The 4 /3 escorts and 4 / 2 raiders are laughably outgunned anyway. 5 /2 and 5 / 1 are the new standard DPS fast little ships... and at that point with all the current +dmg / +acc sets tied to Heavy turrets and Omni beams, there would be a real painful opportunity cost on those ships of slotting a 360 torp... I mean would you remove your bio-heavy phaser/disruptor or martok 360 weapon or put them in the front for an extra forward firing torp ? I wouldn't even if they did fly at the same speed as my DHC it would likely be a DPS loss compared to the NRG buff from those sets.
360 degree torps may be a bit much for sci ships... but I would argue even 3 fore points on sci ships with torp doffs right now is enough to be firing a constant stream of torps anyway... in such a case a rear torp wouldn't be of much use anyway.
The only real ships I see winning would be cruisers looking to broadside and have torps... which right now is completely unviable.
Still another option is some form of Duty officer... I guess space warfare specialist that increases torp speed... if they make it a projectile doff they may as well not bother. Pretty much every torpedo outside of perhaps the Bio-photon are useless with out 2-3 torp doffs.
However they do it though hopefully at some point they do make a few more torp tweaks. As I stated they have made quite a few over the years... I'm sure they will add more torp stuffs at some point they haven't forgotten torps they just seem to hit them with a bunch of changes all at once every few years.
Wait, dispersal pattern doesn't suffer from global cooldown?!? Since when?!? Because that changes everything!!! Okay I need to check this out.
As I said before the ones on your own ship do but the ones on your other sources do not. As per my build on page 2 and in the link I gave you I have 2 mine launchers and 2 bridge dispersal pattern on my ship. Then 4 more mine launchers and 4 more dispersal pattern from other sources that run constantly. Then on top of that traits, clusters and consoles that produce more mines. It was clearly posted where I got the extra mine launchers & dispersal patterns from but you either failed to read or just ignored it. Just like you did in the sci tread.
Anyway I clearly said I have 5 mine launcher and 5 dispersal pattern without a cooldown problem with a part cooldown cross over on the 6th launcher and 6th dispersal pattern.
I made it very clear to you what ship and build I was using and how I got 50 to 100+ mines in space. I gave you my ship build layout and link to a thread to back it up. All I have had from you in return in BS and irrelevant rules.
So keep pretending mine boats are not possible with your irrelevant rules while the rest of us enjoy flying real mine boats. Nothing you say can stop us using and having fun spamming a large amount of mines, doing sustained mine DPS on our real mine boats that work.
A change to the flight speed, and firing arc of torpedoes, unless it is tied to them being used on specific ship-types, is that it would also buff them on other ships that don't need the buff. It might be better to take the idea into more of a boff-ability concept, such as giving tactical a new torpedo enhancement buff that buffs the travel speed of torpedoes for a duration, while for engineering having a ability you can toggle on that increases your slotted torpedoes (and maybe even dual/dual heavy cannons) firing arc at the cost of some damage output, placing these in atleast a lt. com or higher seat would make them largely secluded to ships that have these high seats.
I'm not sure I believe that increasing the speed or firing arc on torpedos would overly advantage any ship class anymore.
I would have agreed a 360 degree torp would be OP for escorts back when escorts where all 4 fore hard points and 3 rear... with raiders loosing one rear. At that point sure there would be little opportunity cost to slotting a 360 in the back. However these days ? The 4 /3 escorts and 4 / 2 raiders are laughably outgunned anyway. 5 /2 and 5 / 1 are the new standard DPS fast little ships... and at that point with all the current +dmg / +acc sets tied to Heavy turrets and Omni beams, there would be a real painful opportunity cost on those ships of slotting a 360 torp... I mean would you remove your bio-heavy phaser/disruptor or martok 360 weapon or put them in the front for an extra forward firing torp ? I wouldn't even if they did fly at the same speed as my DHC it would likely be a DPS loss compared to the NRG buff from those sets.
360 degree torps may be a bit much for sci ships... but I would argue even 3 fore points on sci ships with torp doffs right now is enough to be firing a constant stream of torps anyway... in such a case a rear torp wouldn't be of much use anyway.
The only real ships I see winning would be cruisers looking to broadside and have torps... which right now is completely unviable.
Still another option is some form of Duty officer... I guess space warfare specialist that increases torp speed... if they make it a projectile doff they may as well not bother. Pretty much every torpedo outside of perhaps the Bio-photon are useless with out 2-3 torp doffs.
However they do it though hopefully at some point they do make a few more torp tweaks. As I stated they have made quite a few over the years... I'm sure they will add more torp stuffs at some point they haven't forgotten torps they just seem to hit them with a bunch of changes all at once every few years.
Well I would agree that if we are talking about just buffing the travel speed, or the firing arc of torpedoes. then it would not be that appealing to use compared to other options we have (though people don't always fallow the trends others do). Now if we are talking about a torpedo that has 160-10 degree firing arc, as well as travels 2-3 times faster than the torpedoes do now, well that is quite a different story as the appeal is quite a bit higher on such a torpedo.
Issue I see with adding such a change to doffs is that well how many doff slots do you have, and are you going to want to waste a slot for a buff to the travel speed and/or firing arc over merely buffing something else that is as good out the gate. Creating a pair of boff abilities that are tied to the higher engineering and tactical seats, which gives a speed increase or firing arc increase would make ships with those tier of slots quite appealing to those that like torpedoes.
I mean imagine if in the lt commander/commander rank engineering seat you could get a boff ability that increased the firing arc of your torpedoes on your ship, or a lt commander/commander tactical seat boff ability that increased your torpedoes travel speed by 2-3 times, such a set of boff abilities would to me be quite appealing for those ship types. Also this would lock such boff abilities to those heavy career focused ships, giving them something that might make them more appealing to use, since heavy engineering focused ships are not always that appealing.
> @postinggum said:
> They released both a starship trait and miracle worker ability that boosts energy weapon damage following a torp. As always the good stuff has something of a paywall.
Which trait and miracle worker ability?
Trait - Super charged Weapons from Star Cruiser tac/ scimi tac/ Martok battlecruiser for you energy weapons up to 3 stacks of +10% damage 1.5% critH, 6.6% critD for 20sec and it activate off torp spread for 3 stacks when hitting multiple targets
Miracle worker - Mixed Armaments Synergy. Lt-Commander giving 30-50% boost for 10 sec with base cd of 45 sec
In other words double energy weapon fire power for a decent proportion of time. if only there were a ship sale coming up.
Choose a torp with some control aspect like pep or gravimetric and thats a ton of utility from a TS1 and a single weapon slot.
A change to the flight speed, and firing arc of torpedoes, unless it is tied to them being used on specific ship-types, is that it would also buff them on other ships that don't need the buff. It might be better to take the idea into more of a boff-ability concept, such as giving tactical a new torpedo enhancement buff that buffs the travel speed of torpedoes for a duration, while for engineering having a ability you can toggle on that increases your slotted torpedoes (and maybe even dual/dual heavy cannons) firing arc at the cost of some damage output, placing these in atleast a lt. com or higher seat would make them largely secluded to ships that have these high seats.
I'm not sure I believe that increasing the speed or firing arc on torpedos would overly advantage any ship class anymore.
I would have agreed a 360 degree torp would be OP for escorts back when escorts where all 4 fore hard points and 3 rear... with raiders loosing one rear. At that point sure there would be little opportunity cost to slotting a 360 in the back. However these days ? The 4 /3 escorts and 4 / 2 raiders are laughably outgunned anyway. 5 /2 and 5 / 1 are the new standard DPS fast little ships... and at that point with all the current +dmg / +acc sets tied to Heavy turrets and Omni beams, there would be a real painful opportunity cost on those ships of slotting a 360 torp... I mean would you remove your bio-heavy phaser/disruptor or martok 360 weapon or put them in the front for an extra forward firing torp ? I wouldn't even if they did fly at the same speed as my DHC it would likely be a DPS loss compared to the NRG buff from those sets.
360 degree torps may be a bit much for sci ships... but I would argue even 3 fore points on sci ships with torp doffs right now is enough to be firing a constant stream of torps anyway... in such a case a rear torp wouldn't be of much use anyway.
The only real ships I see winning would be cruisers looking to broadside and have torps... which right now is completely unviable.
Still another option is some form of Duty officer... I guess space warfare specialist that increases torp speed... if they make it a projectile doff they may as well not bother. Pretty much every torpedo outside of perhaps the Bio-photon are useless with out 2-3 torp doffs.
However they do it though hopefully at some point they do make a few more torp tweaks. As I stated they have made quite a few over the years... I'm sure they will add more torp stuffs at some point they haven't forgotten torps they just seem to hit them with a bunch of changes all at once every few years.
Well I would agree that if we are talking about just buffing the travel speed, or the firing arc of torpedoes. then it would not be that appealing to use compared to other options we have (though people don't always fallow the trends others do). Now if we are talking about a torpedo that has 160-10 degree firing arc, as well as travels 2-3 times faster than the torpedoes do now, well that is quite a different story as the appeal is quite a bit higher on such a torpedo.
Issue I see with adding such a change to doffs is that well how many doff slots do you have, and are you going to want to waste a slot for a buff to the travel speed and/or firing arc over merely buffing something else that is as good out the gate. Creating a pair of boff abilities that are tied to the higher engineering and tactical seats, which gives a speed increase or firing arc increase would make ships with those tier of slots quite appealing to those that like torpedoes.
I mean imagine if in the lt commander/commander rank engineering seat you could get a boff ability that increased the firing arc of your torpedoes on your ship, or a lt commander/commander tactical seat boff ability that increased your torpedoes travel speed by 2-3 times, such a set of boff abilities would to me be quite appealing for those ship types. Also this would lock such boff abilities to those heavy career focused ships, giving them something that might make them more appealing to use, since heavy engineering focused ships are not always that appealing.
letting torps move faster might be a good start, but i think making them all act like destructable torpedos being able to get another target when the target is destroyed might be actually better and more helpful like the experimental proton charge weapon for the additional slot (the xindi escort weapon)
letting torps move faster might be a good start, but i think making them all act like destructable torpedos being able to get another target when the target is destroyed might be actually better and more helpful like the experimental proton charge weapon for the additional slot (the xindi escort weapon)
I can agree with letting torpedoes switch to a different target within a certain range when their primary target dies, would be quite a nice change. Though i could see that as more of a starship or character trait, or even as part of one of the spec tree talents.
Another idea would be to tie the travel speed of torpedoes to either your weapon power, or aux power levels based on which is higher, it does make sense that weapon power would not affect the damage of torpedoes but travel speed is another story imo. This could either be innate to torpedoes, or as a trait that you could take, which would apply a travel speed buff to your torpedoes based of your aux or weapon power (whichever is the highest).
So what you are saying is that all mine ship (my definition of mines) is viable because you can make it work using a specific type of ship...i.e. frigate carrier that can use a pet that has mines and dispersal pattern?!? And using only 3 of the weapon slot no less...but that is being nit picky really. You do realize that I can make a viable all torp ships using ANY of the T6 ships in this game...right? Or an all cannon one...even the DD with is a lumbering beast. And all beams goes without saying. So yeah...I am gonna go with mines still needs some love.
Well it’s not the only ship mine boats work on as command battlecruisers make great mine boats as well among others. Anyway I have always agreed since the start mines need some love. What I disagreed with is your strange definition of a mine boat, and in you saying mine boats are not viable.
“You do realize that I can make a viable all torp ships using ANY of the T6 ships in this game...right?”
Do you realise that without your irrelevant rules I can make a useable mine boat that does mine only damage on any T6 ship.
Yes mines could use some improvement mostly in the unique mines as many of them are useless and need fixing. But mine boats are viable and nowhere near as bad as you make out.
So what you are saying is that all mine ship (my definition of mines) is viable because you can make it work using a specific type of ship...i.e. frigate carrier that can use a pet that has mines and dispersal pattern?!? And using only 3 of the weapon slot no less...but that is being nit picky really. You do realize that I can make a viable all torp ships using ANY of the T6 ships in this game...right? Or an all cannon one...even the DD with is a lumbering beast. And all beams goes without saying. So yeah...I am gonna go with mines still needs some love.
Well it’s not the only ship mine boats work on as command battlecruisers make great mine boats as well among others. Anyway I have always agreed since the start mines need some love. What I disagreed with is your strange definition of a mine boat, and in you saying mine boats are not viable.
“You do realize that I can make a viable all torp ships using ANY of the T6 ships in this game...right?”
Do you realise that without your irrelevant rules I can make a useable mine boat that does mine only damage on any T6 ship.
Yes mines could use some improvement mostly in the unique mines as many of them are useless and need fixing. But mine boats are viable and nowhere near as bad as you make out.
Only if you define torps as mines. I do not...and NOTHING you have said leads to believe that things that are buffed by torp boffs abilities but not mine boff abilities are mines. Yeah the mines those torps spawn does mine damage...doesn't mean the torps that spawns the mines are mines. You and I are going to never agree on this. So when I say mine boat, you know damn well I mean no cluster torps. And that is not viable. I don't care that you seem to think that torps are mines. And it is not arbitrary. I gave you damn good reason why i consider them not mines. You personally don't have to accept that...but from my stance...mine boats are not viable...in the sense that I can take any T6 ship, use all mines (what I consider mines) and have it be viable.
It very much is arbitrary and not a damn good reason and you don't even need the clusters to make mine boats on command ships. Weapons can be more than one thing at the same time. Like a bio-neural torpedo is both a torpedo and an energy turret in one. Clusters are the same they are both a torpedo and mine in one.
You say a weapon that deploys mines, is boosted by mine consoles, does mine damage, works with most mine ability’s is not a mine based weapon. Anyone who has that attitude is clearly not worth wasting time with. So bye, I am not wasting anymore time with someone who has not only been so foolish time and time again but just like the sci thread you have made dozens of comments which show how badly you know and understand the game.
On the mine boat back and forth.... I think you both have wildly differing ideas of what "viable" means. lol
A Mine only ship is horrible >.<
Fun I'm sure and that is the point I for all of us I hope... but not fun in the look my teammates don't hate me and these NPCs are popping like I'm Kirk. No more like a hahaha look at that stupid NPC that just slowly VERY slowly flew right into my nest of mines that took me 30s to setup. Never mind that ANY of the other ship weapons used in those slots would have slaughtered those NPCs in half the time.
Mines need some love yes... they did get a buff to flight speed. They got the Mask signiture buff ages back. Still for the most part they are pretty damn weak... and any of the harder NPCs are using FAW and AOEs even the NPCs tend to shot most of them down. Phasic Artillary from the temp spec for sure helps with that... still its a spec solution, other weapons don't require the use of a specfic spec to be playable. For most content mines are just not useful at all. I am going to be honest I am in one of the harder ques and I see someone messing around dropping mulitple mine patterns... I wouldn't take a bet that people start warping and taking their leaver penalties. That is how bad mines are.
Still having said that... I don't believe they ever need to be as good as the other weapon types really. Their niche and fun... and I think that is likely ok. A few buffs perhaps... but I don't want to play a game where everyone is dropping mines all the time either.
EDIT... to be clear I fly a few torp bombers for fun still a few t6 fleet varos in my garage. On all of them I use a dispesal pattern 3. I sometimes run Plasma mines as they do a TON of dmg on big targets like gates ect thanks to the varo extra plasma dmg buffs. Still the only mines I find really useful are quantum cause they do actually move fast enough to hit targets, and for some content the Bio Photons with [radius]x2 and the Nukura web mines again against some of the bigger targets. With out cloak bonus dmg and a ship that can logically slot a Dispersal 3 though mines are just so bad.
For me, the trick with mines is to not set them on autofire (okay, small fib - I have two chronitons on auto, web on a keybound manual with dbp3 so I can drop both in two key presses in the gcd interval) so you can drop mines point blank
As I said previously, kinetic magnet makes a mine build work amazingly well when teamed with manual fire and trolliton mines (why do I use chronitons? Stacking speed debuff makes it easier for other mines to chase the mob) while master of the mined is the equivalent of hacking the pentagon to fire all nukes at a guy who beat you in an fps - incredible overkill (that guy with the 50 to 100 odd mines out could likely total a tzenkethi dread with it)
The way I view mines is they are torpedos ready to fire outside the ship - thus when you use km, you are essentially firing a mass of torpedos at a target - you use them not as mines but a directional weapon
My typical mine alpha is
Approach target (turning 360 to deploy a bioneural from the aft if at 12km for distraction)
Fire hyt chroniton cluster, Vaad follows swiftly followed by a harpengh and maybe hyper rom torps
At 8 to 7km activate dpb3 and web mine (so it drops nearer 6)
Activate kinetic magnet, attracting both cluster mines, the web mines and other mines (and rom torps, if fired) while debuffing dr
Peel out, turn to resume torpedoing and make sure to doge the tric explosions
Repeat until death
Someone in another thread suggested perhaps the answer might be slightly expanding their firing ARC so I created the following Poll to get others thoughts or ideas...
Torps are fine the way they are, you just have to "LEARN" how to use them. I've seen people pull 200k+ on CCA (given it has no shields to worry about) with only torps. Just look though all the rep skills/traits, ship traits, and some of the recent rep weapon set bonus's. Thing with torps you can not have them auto firing, but fire then at the right time and in cases of having 2+ torps - fire then in the correct order so each of their buffs will help others. One of the rep sets (think terran) has a activatable bonus that for 20 secs any of your torps that hits the target will cause you to fire another torp of the one that hit and keep firing as long as you don't miss (if i read the tooltip correctly, if this is correct, just think how this would be with hy3 or spread 3)
Honestly, at the moment, I think the biggest issue is that there's a lack of options for Kinetic damage. Missiles, Mines, and torpedos. It'd be interesting to get something like mass-driver cannons (counterparts to DHCs), cannon banks (Beam arrays), etc
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They are both torpedoes and mine launchers in 1 weapon. They fire a torpedo and drop a series of mines. That doesn’t make them a pure torpedo launcher. It makes them a hybrid torp/mine weapon. Given that the core mine stuff works on clusters and that mines are created they are perfectly valid to use on a mine boat and still be called a mine boat.
I don’t really care about your silly arbitrary rules. It’s clear that mine boats work and that you are wrong in saying you cannot make a mine boat. A mine boat is about putting mines in space. It doesn’t matter how you do that as long as that’s what you are doing. I have a single energy weapon fitted as it boosts the mines defence, boost mines damage and spawns mines. That’s still a valid fit for a mine boat. You can remove the energy weapon and clusters if you really want to and still have a valid mine boat that works.
If you want to stick to pointless arbitrary rules that's your problem not mine. I am going to keep using my mine layer build despite you pretending it doesn't work or count. Although I am wondering what do you call my ship that does almost zero torp damage puts out 100's of mines and does sustained mine DPS. Apparently its not a mine layer build!!!
Sure but not right now. It’s very fun to use, won’t break any DPS records but all upgraded can do 50 to 100k depending on content.
I do not have one written up and about to head to work. If I haven’t sent it to you in 24hours I forgot so please remind me. One of the old threads which might give ideas
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/13244615
EDIT: A side effect of playing a mine boat is ACC is completely useless. You can free up the skill points that boost ACC and put them in something else. Mines don't have ACC and don't factor in ACC or overflow. They just auto hit, zero misses if in explosion range.
Well you have a history of calling BS on things that are true and correct but you misunderstand. Not only have I already explained how I had 6 mine launchers dropping mines without clusters but I gave a link to another thread explaining it. 5 launchers at the same time with 5 Dispersal patterns at the same time is a lot more than 8 mines being tossed out. Now I did say 6 launchers and 6 dispersal patterns but the 6th and only the 6th has a part cooldown crossover on my build. Then on top of this add the other weapons which produce mines but you do not want to count as mines and you hit the 100’s of mines out.
I have already explained twice how I did this and gave a link to a thread explaining more so given that and along with how you got so confused in the last thread between sci and cruisers ships and confused between the best sci consoles I am not wasting time explaining this again. Just because you do not understand something doesn’t means its BS.
My mine layer is a real mine boat. A mine boat is a ship that produces a vast amount of mines and does its main damage by mines. The simple fact is 100% of the weapon slots on my ship are producing mines, doing mine damage and boosted by mine tactical consoles. That’s a mine boat no matter what silly arbitrary rules you create. So you are wrong in saying mine boats cannot be created.
Yes I have. If the weapon does mine damage, is boosted by mine tactical consoles, works with mine powers, is recorded in the damage logs as a mine it’s a mine weapon. Only you could call that not a mine weapon.
This is like the time you couldn't understand I was flying a Exotic based Cruiser despite me clearly explaining.
"which are not boosted by dispersal pattern but boosted by concentrate firepower mind you are mines and not torps. "
They are mines and torps together in one weapon. Why is that so hard for you to understand? They are clearly mine based weapons that deal 100% mine damage and the fact you refuse to admit that shows you are the one full of BS.
How can a weapon that deals 0% torp damage, deploys mines and does 100% mine damage and boosted by mine consoles not be classed as a mine weapon?
No goalposts have been moved you just misread what I put and yet again are showing how badly you know the game. Just like you did in the sci thread where you proved yourself clueless.
It’s not claimed, theory or BS. The link proves plenty of other people run similar mine boats although the others tend to favour Kinetic Magnetic over my style. But still mine boats are real and work even if you want to discount them as mine boat due to some silly made up rules that only you use.
I am not going play your stupid game about what you think is a real mine or not. That’s your BS that you can keep. For the rest of us it’s pretty clear what mine is. You’re the one spreading BS about how a mine hitting and doing mine damage is not a real mine and so does not count.
The link proves 50 to 100’s of mines in space is real and works with or without clusters. So keep pretending its all BS while the rest of us enjoy flying mine boats with mass numbers of mines in space.
Heavy tachyon mine
Vorgon mine trait (assuming one omni, faw I.. I counted this as two mines)
4x mines (each deploying 4 mines)
Dpb3x2 (a2b build, for arguments sake) - 16 mines each
Harraser drone console (I think they spam chroniton mines, 4 for each of the two drones)
Adv chroniton torp (hyt3 =/= dpb3) - 16 mines
Breen cluster (cluster =/= dpb3) - 16 mines
Vaad cluster (ignored due to impossibility of firing vaad and breen simultaneously)
Elite echentis mine launchers
Elite echentis dpb3 - 16x4 mines
Totalling that up, hypothetically the ship could disgorge 149 mines in a perfect scenario, so 50 mines is potentially possible
edit - brainfarted; I stated 10s duration then added a poer with a 15s gcd, lol ..so either count it as in 15s or 133 mines)
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That said, this method is basically mine faw with an 'overload' every two minutes which is why I believe for a 'free' mineboat the vorgon Xyfius or the Breen Chell Boalg are superior mine ships
Why? Kinetic Magnet (intel) - as opposed to a mass murder every 2 minutes, kM lets you (double gcd) designate a target every 20s, debuffs their resistance and affects targettable projectiles (thats not to say I don't plan to get that master of the mined for boss eradication)
(Why not command options? Concentrate is good, however you risk having the hyt 'stolen' by allies with torps doing your build no good)
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As to my setup (Chell Boalg for my build simply as sci/int was pretty useless slot wise compared to tac/int on the Xyfius), I go with 3x pwo and:
Adv chroniton (hyt cluster modes it)
Vaad cluster (not tied to adv chronitons cd, so you can fire both in sequence then km to ensure everything hits)
Harpengh (hits hard, looks great, lethal aoe that propagates and does not eat hyt casts)
Rom hyper plas torp (hits hard if accidently hyt'd, is affected by kinetic magnet, gives you three chances to restore cd)
(Rear is three mines, one on manual deployment (long cd) and a bioneural as why not?)
Its not a pure mine boat, but its great fun for my rom to pootle about in - as to tac consoles, 3x mine and 1 torp (the krenim console for epg too) works well due to the amount of mines in the build
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Still there are some major issues with torps... that mostly just come down to most other weapon types being >. Here are my current issues with torps.
- For Canon loving ships like escorts.... flight speed. The simple fact is if you have a proper built canon ship... all but the biggest targets will be dead before your torpedos get there.
- For Beam loving ships like cruisers... firing arc. The only viable cruiser builds with torps are going to have to involve 360 weapons in the rear weapon slots. So a crafted 360 + a mission 360 + a borg cutting beam... after that you can either slot a rep/mission heavy turret and not carry any type of firing buff for it... or perhaps load a mine but a cruiser with mines is not going to be great
- for science ships... torps make the most sense. On a science ship you can debuff targets, strip shields, kill sub system power ect. So torpedo weapons are logical. The main beef here of course is Target sub systems have recently gotten changed for the better.... and now running a science ship with only one beam or a few turrets ect in the back mean the ships free target sub system skills are very weak if not useless. Old target sub only needed one beam to proc... now as a nrg weapon buff a ship with 2-3 energy weapons at most is just not going to work... adding more energy weapons means dropping mines completely, or loosing a front firing weapon. Sci ships with out torp doffs and only 1-2 torps are just not going to provide enough DPS to be considered viable.
My suggestions to make torpedoes even better are simple....
1) to address the main reason they don't get put on escorts, increase their flight speed 2-3x current.
2) to address the issue with cruisers, adjust ALL torps to have 180 degree firing arcs (same as single canons) this will allow broadsiding cruisers to slot one without loosing more DPS then its worth. Also add a new Crafted 260 or perhaps even 360 torpedo. Considering how most escorts now have 2 rear slots and many of the best options only have 1... a 360 torpedo wouldn't be as over powered as it would have been years back when every escort could have slotted a 360 torp in the back.
3) for science ships... change target sub systems to add effects when firing torpedos. Currently each nrg shot with target subs running has a chance to knock system offline and drains a small bit of power (stacking to 10). When firing torps with the Tsub ability up, torps should inflict more drain the base amount and have 3x the chance to disable. So target subs should look like this...
Right now;
Target Shields 1 - Upgrades all energy weapons for 10sec
*6% chance to knock system offline
* drain 4.5 shield power for 10s (stacks max 10 times)
Changed to;
Target Shields 1 - Upgrades all weapons for 10sec
*6% chance to knock system offline with energy weapons 18% chance with torpedos and mines
* drain 4.5 shield power for 10s (stacks max 10 times) torpedo hits under this effect apply 5 stacks.
I'm not sure I believe that increasing the speed or firing arc on torpedos would overly advantage any ship class anymore.
I would have agreed a 360 degree torp would be OP for escorts back when escorts where all 4 fore hard points and 3 rear... with raiders loosing one rear. At that point sure there would be little opportunity cost to slotting a 360 in the back. However these days ? The 4 /3 escorts and 4 / 2 raiders are laughably outgunned anyway. 5 /2 and 5 / 1 are the new standard DPS fast little ships... and at that point with all the current +dmg / +acc sets tied to Heavy turrets and Omni beams, there would be a real painful opportunity cost on those ships of slotting a 360 torp... I mean would you remove your bio-heavy phaser/disruptor or martok 360 weapon or put them in the front for an extra forward firing torp ? I wouldn't even if they did fly at the same speed as my DHC it would likely be a DPS loss compared to the NRG buff from those sets.
360 degree torps may be a bit much for sci ships... but I would argue even 3 fore points on sci ships with torp doffs right now is enough to be firing a constant stream of torps anyway... in such a case a rear torp wouldn't be of much use anyway.
The only real ships I see winning would be cruisers looking to broadside and have torps... which right now is completely unviable.
Still another option is some form of Duty officer... I guess space warfare specialist that increases torp speed... if they make it a projectile doff they may as well not bother. Pretty much every torpedo outside of perhaps the Bio-photon are useless with out 2-3 torp doffs.
However they do it though hopefully at some point they do make a few more torp tweaks. As I stated they have made quite a few over the years... I'm sure they will add more torp stuffs at some point they haven't forgotten torps they just seem to hit them with a bunch of changes all at once every few years.
Anyway I clearly said I have 5 mine launcher and 5 dispersal pattern without a cooldown problem with a part cooldown cross over on the 6th launcher and 6th dispersal pattern.
I made it very clear to you what ship and build I was using and how I got 50 to 100+ mines in space. I gave you my ship build layout and link to a thread to back it up. All I have had from you in return in BS and irrelevant rules.
So keep pretending mine boats are not possible with your irrelevant rules while the rest of us enjoy flying real mine boats. Nothing you say can stop us using and having fun spamming a large amount of mines, doing sustained mine DPS on our real mine boats that work.
Well I would agree that if we are talking about just buffing the travel speed, or the firing arc of torpedoes. then it would not be that appealing to use compared to other options we have (though people don't always fallow the trends others do). Now if we are talking about a torpedo that has 160-10 degree firing arc, as well as travels 2-3 times faster than the torpedoes do now, well that is quite a different story as the appeal is quite a bit higher on such a torpedo.
Issue I see with adding such a change to doffs is that well how many doff slots do you have, and are you going to want to waste a slot for a buff to the travel speed and/or firing arc over merely buffing something else that is as good out the gate. Creating a pair of boff abilities that are tied to the higher engineering and tactical seats, which gives a speed increase or firing arc increase would make ships with those tier of slots quite appealing to those that like torpedoes.
I mean imagine if in the lt commander/commander rank engineering seat you could get a boff ability that increased the firing arc of your torpedoes on your ship, or a lt commander/commander tactical seat boff ability that increased your torpedoes travel speed by 2-3 times, such a set of boff abilities would to me be quite appealing for those ship types. Also this would lock such boff abilities to those heavy career focused ships, giving them something that might make them more appealing to use, since heavy engineering focused ships are not always that appealing.
Trait - Super charged Weapons from Star Cruiser tac/ scimi tac/ Martok battlecruiser for you energy weapons up to 3 stacks of +10% damage 1.5% critH, 6.6% critD for 20sec and it activate off torp spread for 3 stacks when hitting multiple targets
Miracle worker - Mixed Armaments Synergy. Lt-Commander giving 30-50% boost for 10 sec with base cd of 45 sec
In other words double energy weapon fire power for a decent proportion of time. if only there were a ship sale coming up.
Choose a torp with some control aspect like pep or gravimetric and thats a ton of utility from a TS1 and a single weapon slot.
letting torps move faster might be a good start, but i think making them all act like destructable torpedos being able to get another target when the target is destroyed might be actually better and more helpful like the experimental proton charge weapon for the additional slot (the xindi escort weapon)
ingame: @Felisean
I can agree with letting torpedoes switch to a different target within a certain range when their primary target dies, would be quite a nice change. Though i could see that as more of a starship or character trait, or even as part of one of the spec tree talents.
Another idea would be to tie the travel speed of torpedoes to either your weapon power, or aux power levels based on which is higher, it does make sense that weapon power would not affect the damage of torpedoes but travel speed is another story imo. This could either be innate to torpedoes, or as a trait that you could take, which would apply a travel speed buff to your torpedoes based of your aux or weapon power (whichever is the highest).
“You do realize that I can make a viable all torp ships using ANY of the T6 ships in this game...right?”
Do you realise that without your irrelevant rules I can make a useable mine boat that does mine only damage on any T6 ship.
Yes mines could use some improvement mostly in the unique mines as many of them are useless and need fixing. But mine boats are viable and nowhere near as bad as you make out.
You say a weapon that deploys mines, is boosted by mine consoles, does mine damage, works with most mine ability’s is not a mine based weapon. Anyone who has that attitude is clearly not worth wasting time with. So bye, I am not wasting anymore time with someone who has not only been so foolish time and time again but just like the sci thread you have made dozens of comments which show how badly you know and understand the game.
A Mine only ship is horrible >.<
Fun I'm sure and that is the point I for all of us I hope... but not fun in the look my teammates don't hate me and these NPCs are popping like I'm Kirk. No more like a hahaha look at that stupid NPC that just slowly VERY slowly flew right into my nest of mines that took me 30s to setup. Never mind that ANY of the other ship weapons used in those slots would have slaughtered those NPCs in half the time.
Mines need some love yes... they did get a buff to flight speed. They got the Mask signiture buff ages back. Still for the most part they are pretty damn weak... and any of the harder NPCs are using FAW and AOEs even the NPCs tend to shot most of them down. Phasic Artillary from the temp spec for sure helps with that... still its a spec solution, other weapons don't require the use of a specfic spec to be playable. For most content mines are just not useful at all. I am going to be honest I am in one of the harder ques and I see someone messing around dropping mulitple mine patterns... I wouldn't take a bet that people start warping and taking their leaver penalties. That is how bad mines are.
Still having said that... I don't believe they ever need to be as good as the other weapon types really. Their niche and fun... and I think that is likely ok. A few buffs perhaps... but I don't want to play a game where everyone is dropping mines all the time either.
EDIT... to be clear I fly a few torp bombers for fun still a few t6 fleet varos in my garage. On all of them I use a dispesal pattern 3. I sometimes run Plasma mines as they do a TON of dmg on big targets like gates ect thanks to the varo extra plasma dmg buffs. Still the only mines I find really useful are quantum cause they do actually move fast enough to hit targets, and for some content the Bio Photons with [radius]x2 and the Nukura web mines again against some of the bigger targets. With out cloak bonus dmg and a ship that can logically slot a Dispersal 3 though mines are just so bad.
As I said previously, kinetic magnet makes a mine build work amazingly well when teamed with manual fire and trolliton mines (why do I use chronitons? Stacking speed debuff makes it easier for other mines to chase the mob) while master of the mined is the equivalent of hacking the pentagon to fire all nukes at a guy who beat you in an fps - incredible overkill (that guy with the 50 to 100 odd mines out could likely total a tzenkethi dread with it)
The way I view mines is they are torpedos ready to fire outside the ship - thus when you use km, you are essentially firing a mass of torpedos at a target - you use them not as mines but a directional weapon
My typical mine alpha is
Approach target (turning 360 to deploy a bioneural from the aft if at 12km for distraction)
Fire hyt chroniton cluster, Vaad follows swiftly followed by a harpengh and maybe hyper rom torps
At 8 to 7km activate dpb3 and web mine (so it drops nearer 6)
Activate kinetic magnet, attracting both cluster mines, the web mines and other mines (and rom torps, if fired) while debuffing dr
Peel out, turn to resume torpedoing and make sure to doge the tric explosions
Repeat until death
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https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1236609/should-torpedos-be-given-a-wider-105-120-arc
And, i agree..,mines deserve more love too.