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Some love for torpedoes please.

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  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Torps do work but the odds are stacked against you. You've gotta be committed to working with their mechanics, rather than just spamming and expecting them to work.
    It's all about managing cooldowns and maximizing shield pen.

    I think one thing that would make them much more effective and appealing would be a mechanic whereby a shield's resistance drops as it's HP's drop. This way using a shield stripping build or ability would still be effective to help your torps even if it never fully removes all the shields.
    Right now most of the torp damage is wasted on the shields, and even a tiny sliver of health can stop practically a full spread. But shields with only 10% HP or less really should be at risk of letting more damage though or just collapsing fully.

    It's sad really. I can't bring myself to 'drop' my FT5-U Rhode Island torpedo boat build. I have it kitted with with mostly KT Rapid Reload torpedoes which, in concert with three torpedo cooldown DOFFS, means that there is basically NO cooldown time on them.

    Still - even with high Drain-X, getting through the shields of anything larger than a frigate is a pain.

    Umm...that is a terrible way to kit out a torp boat. Those torps have terrible shield pen and have very little burst power. What you want is some high powered torp with long cooldowns...like neutronic combined with short timered ones like missles, omega and hypers to trigger the doffs to lower the cooldown rates on the high powered long timered torps. Neutronic also has the benefit of ripping shield apart when fired every 2-4 seconds...which makes the other torps do more damage. Also the omega and hyper have good shield pen damage through their plasma damage. Also things like PeP and grav torps to combine with TS is good to toss in as well...especially to combine with the rep trait that loweres sci cooldowns with torp power ups to make more use of sci powers...like tykens + energy siphon to lower their shield powers to make neutronic bursts more useful. Yes, that means you need to micro manage your torp attacks more...that is the challenge of playing this style. Just like using cannons has a challenge of keeping things in a 45 degree arc. It's what you get for not being a BFAW boat. So...yeah...the issue ain't torps in general...the issues is YOUR torp ship exactly.

    Why so aggressive towards everyone?

    Geezzz....you need to cool down a bit and stop biting everyone's head off just because they voice an opinion.

    People can use whatever they want and many pick weapons because of how they look. The KT torps looks brilliant imo and they are not that terrible either. You can make a perfectly serviceable torp boat using them.
    It still doesn't change the fact that most torps are dammed tough to use and can be infuriating if you are new to the game and trying to get them to work.
    At low tiers when leveling you feel great using a Tachyon Beam and slotting a HY photon through and open shield facing, at high levels that just doesn't happen anymore. At Lvl 60 you'll be lucky to see any shield facing drop fully without having some serious attention focused on drains, specifically shield drains.
    Torps go from being a great hard hitting killing move weapon at low level to an extremely situational and half arsed weapon at the top end.

    And all these fancy torps like Neutronic, grav, PEP etc; they are really doing more from the exotic damage proc that the actual torps themselves. They are merely delivery systems for science attacks. So even recommending those torps isn't really improving the torps themselves on someone's ship.
    The real issue is how the kinetic damage mechanic interacts with shields and resistances.
    SulMatuul.png
  • alphagoralphagor Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    Let's just go and ignore Nausican and Crystalline torp spreads doing 80k crits in a single swoop, melting shields and hull like butter. PeP and Gravimetric? Those things don't hit like a train, it's more like an aircraft carrier stacked with traincars falling jet-propelled face down on you. Torps are amazing. Not your everyday kinetic photons maybe, yeah, kinetic could use a rework, but torps man, those are savage. You think FAW cruisers are nasty, you never tried exotic torps OR energy torps.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    It would have been nice if they had taken the idea of how Torpedoes are more effective against hulls an weak against shields, and then expanded it into the other weapon-types. like that Torpedoes are good against hulls an weak to shields as said, but then beams might be strong against shields an weak to hulls, while cannons might be equally useful against both. Though I could see the reverse of cannons being better against shields an weak to hulls, and beams being largely equally useful against both. In the end this could be hard to implement, or quite easy, depends on if they could copy/paste over the mechanic used for reducing the effective power of torpedoes against shields to the beam/cannon type.
  • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    They DID give torps some love. The grav torps with even a TS1 will do some decent damage.

    Mines on the other hand...yeah those really do need some love.

    Maybe a total overhaul to make them somewhat less situational and limited?

    Right...because getting some love = a total overhaul of the weapon system which the dev team they have now barely understand at all. That is just some minor thing and not a major overhaul of a base game system. Yep...that what that term means. How aboput NO. Torps got some love. It's not just the grav torps. With things like the missles with low cooldowns to trigger the proj doffs, torp builds got plenty of love lately. If you can't make a decent torp build now, the issue ain't the game system...the issue is you not knowing enough about the game. We don't fix that by changing the game to suit YOU being ignorant.
    I was specifically talking about mines, you know. The key issue is that mines are basically completely useless. They have very few specialty sets (Only Ferengi, Hirogen, and Hazari spring to mind, compared to dozens of torps), subpar Bridge abilities (Dispersal Patterns are rare and comparatively limited), and generally are going to do less than sticking a torpedo launcher on the aft weapons for deterring pursuit.
    Mines need a SERIOUS boost. Something like increasing damage to frontal shield arcs, or the like.

  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    They DID give torps some love. The grav torps with even a TS1 will do some decent damage.

    Mines on the other hand...yeah those really do need some love.

    Maybe a total overhaul to make them somewhat less situational and limited?

    Right...because getting some love = a total overhaul of the weapon system which the dev team they have now barely understand at all. That is just some minor thing and not a major overhaul of a base game system. Yep...that what that term means. How aboput NO. Torps got some love. It's not just the grav torps. With things like the missles with low cooldowns to trigger the proj doffs, torp builds got plenty of love lately. If you can't make a decent torp build now, the issue ain't the game system...the issue is you not knowing enough about the game. We don't fix that by changing the game to suit YOU being ignorant.
    I was specifically talking about mines, you know. The key issue is that mines are basically completely useless.
    They are not useless my mines often do more DPS then my torpedoes. The problem with mines is most people don’t know how to use them and don’t take the right combo of stuff to make them decent and they don’t take mine bridge powers. Putting a well placed large mine field in the right spawn point does high damage. You can wipe out entire waves of ships within seconds.

    The problem with mines is that most of the unique and special mines do rubbish or half the damage of basic normal mines. For example the Competition mine sounds good but in practises does less damage then basic mines. Same for the Tethered Q mine its completely rubbish doing worse than half the damage of basic mines.

    All they need to do is fix the few bugs and fix the unique special mines so they are worth using and fix the traits which should work with mines but are broken.

  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Torpedos needed substantial buffing but instead they nerfed them badly in the nerf patch.

    People just need to make peace with the fact that they aren't meant to use torpedos and move on.
    Its been pointed out to you before Torpedoes had a number of buffs in that nerf patch. Most of my torpedo boats when up in damage after that patch by a large amount. All my high yield based torp boats gained massively.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    It would have been nice if they had taken the idea of how Torpedoes are more effective against hulls an weak against shields, and then expanded it into the other weapon-types. like that Torpedoes are good against hulls an weak to shields as said, but then beams might be strong against shields an weak to hulls, while cannons might be equally useful against both. Though I could see the reverse of cannons being better against shields an weak to hulls, and beams being largely equally useful against both. In the end this could be hard to implement, or quite easy, depends on if they could copy/paste over the mechanic used for reducing the effective power of torpedoes against shields to the beam/cannon type.

    Therein lay the problem though.

    Beams = effective against shields AND hull
    Torpedoes = useless against shields, lacklustre against hull*

    * Unless it is, ironically, one of the torpedoes that actually does energy-based damage.

    Except you are leaving out one aspect, as you are comparing beams to torpedoes, and the change would also affect cannons. One of the issues with torpedoes, mind you not all torpedoes, is that they are as said lackluster against shields. As such I would look at it like this, and use all three types, but mind you the numbers are merely for comparison.

    Beams: Beams would be equally effective against the hull of a ship, as they would be to the shields of a ship. As such I would say it would be 100% damage against hull, and 100% against shields.
    Cannons: Cannons though I think would be better against the shields of a ship, while weaker against the hull of the ship. An so would deal only 25% damage against hull, but 175% against the shields of a ship. Though I could see this being only tagged on dual-heavy cannons maybe.
    Torpedoes: Now I would keep this the same, with them being really effective against the hull of a ship, but weak against the shields of a ship. So only doing 25% damage against the shields of a ship, but 175% damage against the hull of the ship, which would be like it is now basically.

    In this example using a pairing of cannons with torpedoes, you would actually get to use the torpedo's high damage against the hull of ships via ripping them down by using your cannons. Even if it were made that the damage against the hull for torpedos, and the shields for cannons were upped to 185-195% without further reducing the damage they deal against shields/torpedos an hull/cannons, they would actually be even more complimenting an imperative to beams.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    asuran14 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    It would have been nice if they had taken the idea of how Torpedoes are more effective against hulls an weak against shields, and then expanded it into the other weapon-types. like that Torpedoes are good against hulls an weak to shields as said, but then beams might be strong against shields an weak to hulls, while cannons might be equally useful against both. Though I could see the reverse of cannons being better against shields an weak to hulls, and beams being largely equally useful against both. In the end this could be hard to implement, or quite easy, depends on if they could copy/paste over the mechanic used for reducing the effective power of torpedoes against shields to the beam/cannon type.

    Therein lay the problem though.

    Beams = effective against shields AND hull
    Torpedoes = useless against shields, lacklustre against hull*

    * Unless it is, ironically, one of the torpedoes that actually does energy-based damage.
    One of the issues with torpedoes, mind you not all torpedoes, is that they are as said lackluster against shields. As such I would look at it like this, and use all three types, but mind you the numbers are merely for comparison.
    Since the so called nerf patch I never had any problems with shields. Torpedoes are not lacklustre against shields, I have never had shields last longer then seconds if that long.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    alphagor wrote: »
    Let's just go and ignore Nausican and Crystalline torp spreads doing 80k crits in a single swoop, melting shields and hull like butter. PeP and Gravimetric? Those things don't hit like a train, it's more like an aircraft carrier stacked with traincars falling jet-propelled face down on you. Torps are amazing. Not your everyday kinetic photons maybe, yeah, kinetic could use a rework, but torps man, those are savage. You think FAW cruisers are nasty, you never tried exotic torps OR energy torps.

    Yeah I agree with you on that, but I see energy-based , and exotic torpedoes as kinda a sub-type in torpedos. Which is why I suggested turning the static damage reduction applied to torpedoes hitting shields into a dynamic one, which changes based on either the ship's shield power stat, or the remaining hp of the shield facing impacted. Such a change might not effective the energy torpedoes at all, and only minimally effect the extic, while being quite a boost to the other straight kinetic types.
  • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    They DID give torps some love. The grav torps with even a TS1 will do some decent damage.

    Mines on the other hand...yeah those really do need some love.

    Maybe a total overhaul to make them somewhat less situational and limited?

    Right...because getting some love = a total overhaul of the weapon system which the dev team they have now barely understand at all. That is just some minor thing and not a major overhaul of a base game system. Yep...that what that term means. How aboput NO. Torps got some love. It's not just the grav torps. With things like the missles with low cooldowns to trigger the proj doffs, torp builds got plenty of love lately. If you can't make a decent torp build now, the issue ain't the game system...the issue is you not knowing enough about the game. We don't fix that by changing the game to suit YOU being ignorant.
    I was specifically talking about mines, you know. The key issue is that mines are basically completely useless.
    They are not useless my mines often do more DPS then my torpedoes. The problem with mines is most people don’t know how to use them and don’t take the right combo of stuff to make them decent and they don’t take mine bridge powers. Putting a well placed large mine field in the right spawn point does high damage. You can wipe out entire waves of ships within seconds.

    The problem with mines is that most of the unique and special mines do rubbish or half the damage of basic normal mines. For example the Competition mine sounds good but in practises does less damage then basic mines. Same for the Tethered Q mine its completely rubbish doing worse than half the damage of basic mines.

    All they need to do is fix the few bugs and fix the unique special mines so they are worth using and fix the traits which should work with mines but are broken.

    Never said they weren't damaging. The issue is utility. Mines, you need very specific setups, planning, etc. As I detailed in the rest of the paragraph, you need to specifically get mine powers, know where to place mines, etc. Whereas torpedoes, most tac Boffs have torp powers, they fire faster, and you can use them for both actively pursuing a target or just about any other situation.
    Just saying, mines need more utility overall.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    It would have been nice if they had taken the idea of how Torpedoes are more effective against hulls an weak against shields, and then expanded it into the other weapon-types. like that Torpedoes are good against hulls an weak to shields as said, but then beams might be strong against shields an weak to hulls, while cannons might be equally useful against both. Though I could see the reverse of cannons being better against shields an weak to hulls, and beams being largely equally useful against both. In the end this could be hard to implement, or quite easy, depends on if they could copy/paste over the mechanic used for reducing the effective power of torpedoes against shields to the beam/cannon type.

    Therein lay the problem though.

    Beams = effective against shields AND hull
    Torpedoes = useless against shields, lacklustre against hull*

    * Unless it is, ironically, one of the torpedoes that actually does energy-based damage.
    One of the issues with torpedoes, mind you not all torpedoes, is that they are as said lackluster against shields. As such I would look at it like this, and use all three types, but mind you the numbers are merely for comparison.
    Since the so called nerf patch I never had any problems with shields. Torpedoes are not lacklustre against shields, I have never had shields last longer then seconds if that long.

    An what torpedoes are you using? The patch did not affect all torpedoes equally, many of the exotic an energy based torpedoes are an have been really quite good.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Never said they weren't damaging. The issue is utility. Mines, you need very specific setups, planning, etc. As I detailed in the rest of the paragraph, you need to specifically get mine powers, know where to place mines, etc. Whereas torpedoes, most tac Boffs have torp powers, they fire faster, and you can use them for both actively pursuing a target or just about any other situation.
    Just saying, mines need more utility overall.
    Well you said they where useless which to me reads not damaging. The utility is there you can do the same with mines just most do not know how to. For example I take Hot Pursuit for 100% chase distance and Seeking Mine Subroutine so I can drop 18+ to 30+ mines and have them actively pursuing my chosen target. Its kind off like a 20+ high yield torpedo shot.

    The problem is many of the mines like Tethered Quantum Mine, Modulating Competition Mine Launcher or Thoron Infused Quantum are really poor and hurt your build. We really need those special mines to be fixed.


    asuran14 wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    It would have been nice if they had taken the idea of how Torpedoes are more effective against hulls an weak against shields, and then expanded it into the other weapon-types. like that Torpedoes are good against hulls an weak to shields as said, but then beams might be strong against shields an weak to hulls, while cannons might be equally useful against both. Though I could see the reverse of cannons being better against shields an weak to hulls, and beams being largely equally useful against both. In the end this could be hard to implement, or quite easy, depends on if they could copy/paste over the mechanic used for reducing the effective power of torpedoes against shields to the beam/cannon type.

    Therein lay the problem though.

    Beams = effective against shields AND hull
    Torpedoes = useless against shields, lacklustre against hull*

    * Unless it is, ironically, one of the torpedoes that actually does energy-based damage.
    One of the issues with torpedoes, mind you not all torpedoes, is that they are as said lackluster against shields. As such I would look at it like this, and use all three types, but mind you the numbers are merely for comparison.
    Since the so called nerf patch I never had any problems with shields. Torpedoes are not lacklustre against shields, I have never had shields last longer then seconds if that long.

    An what torpedoes are you using? The patch did not affect all torpedoes equally, many of the exotic an energy based torpedoes are an have been really quite good.
    At the moment Delphic and Neutronic as main with cluster and Hargh’peng as secondary. My builds are focused around high yield shots so the nerf patch gave me a very large DPS increase.
  • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    Well you said they where useless which to me reads not damaging. The utility is there you can do the same with mines just most do not know how to. For example I take Hot Pursuit for 100% chase distance and Seeking Mine Subroutine so I can drop 18+ to 30+ mines and have them actively pursuing my chosen target. Its kind off like a 20+ high yield torpedo shot.

    The problem is many of the mines like Tethered Quantum Mine, Modulating Competition Mine Launcher or Thoron Infused Quantum are really poor and hurt your build. We really need those special mines to be fixed.
    Again, I said basically. They're incredibly, INCREDIBLY niche, requiring a build around them to make them really work. Not saying they can't. Comparatively, with exactly one trait, I can pull 1,263 DPS with a SINGLE torpedo launcher. Whereas mines, I would need at least two, maybe three perks, with specific builds and powers to make them do that. Torpedoes are easy to access, and easily match the damage of mines with more range, easier use, and fewer countermeasures. Mines are fragile (using the plasma autoturret and the Xindi Bioplasma turret, I have almost never actually been hit by a mine), require careful placement, and are overall a lot harder to work.
    My suggestions would be either adding autoturret mines (something that can keep an enemy from recovering shields by the time they get hit), or adding some form of mine launcher that enables them to work against a forward arc just as well. That, or making them specialize in debuffs.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    While I agree mines are not as easy to access all the problems you describe can be fixed in game without much work. I often do 60k to 100k+ dps and mines are often at the top of my DPS weapons chart above all my torpedoes. My mines are not fragile and cannot be taken out with an autoturret or bioplasma. My mine range is longer then my torpedoes so my mines don’t require careful placement. I can just dump them and let them auto track.

    While I do specialise heavily into mines you don’t need to. You only really need one trait to make mines functional, fire and forget. Photon Mines with Hot Pursuit pretty much match the range of torpedoes and Seeking Mine Subroutine have a longer range then torpedoes.

    “Comparatively, with exactly one trait, I can pull 1,263 DPS with a SINGLE torpedo launcher. Whereas mines, I would need at least two, maybe three perks, with specific builds and powers to make them do that.”
    I don’t. With 1 trait I get more like 6 to 10k+ dps from 1 single mine launcher. With 1 trait and 1 bridge power I can drop 16 mines on 1 target more if I mix in a cluster.
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    On the matter of mines. if we did not have the cluster-torpedoes it would have been interesting if they had made a tactical, or engineer boff ability that caused your next torpedo fired to carry along a load of mines with it (that might be affected still by the mine-boff abilties). I like the mine-laying aspect of mines, but I also like the ability to use the cluster-torp of varying styles on a group of grav-welled enemies, which with a cluster-torp like boff ability could have been really fun. Like some interplay of weapon and boff usage.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    At the moment Delphic and Neutronic as main with cluster and Hargh’peng as secondary. My builds are focused around high yield shots so the nerf patch gave me a very large DPS increase.

    I can see why you got quite a nice chunk of dps from the changes, even seeing if you are using the full delphic set for the free high-yields, but also looks like some of the damage is exotic (specifically radiation). Not sure how a similar build would fair if it were using a more pure-kinetic damage build, as it would deal more with the kinetic damage reduction innately tied to hitting a shield facing.

    Even if a change to overall torpedoes does not happen, it would be nice to see some torpedo types get abit of work. like the trico, chroniton, and transphasic specifically.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    They DID give torps some love. The grav torps with even a TS1 will do some decent damage.

    Mines on the other hand...yeah those really do need some love.

    Maybe a total overhaul to make them somewhat less situational and limited?

    Right...because getting some love = a total overhaul of the weapon system which the dev team they have now barely understand at all. That is just some minor thing and not a major overhaul of a base game system. Yep...that what that term means. How aboput NO. Torps got some love. It's not just the grav torps. With things like the missles with low cooldowns to trigger the proj doffs, torp builds got plenty of love lately. If you can't make a decent torp build now, the issue ain't the game system...the issue is you not knowing enough about the game. We don't fix that by changing the game to suit YOU being ignorant.
    I was specifically talking about mines, you know. The key issue is that mines are basically completely useless.
    They are not useless my mines often do more DPS then my torpedoes. The problem with mines is most people don’t know how to use them and don’t take the right combo of stuff to make them decent and they don’t take mine bridge powers. Putting a well placed large mine field in the right spawn point does high damage. You can wipe out entire waves of ships within seconds.

    The problem with mines is that most of the unique and special mines do rubbish or half the damage of basic normal mines. For example the Competition mine sounds good but in practises does less damage then basic mines. Same for the Tethered Q mine its completely rubbish doing worse than half the damage of basic mines.

    All they need to do is fix the few bugs and fix the unique special mines so they are worth using and fix the traits which should work with mines but are broken.

    Never said they weren't damaging. The issue is utility. Mines, you need very specific setups, planning, etc. As I detailed in the rest of the paragraph, you need to specifically get mine powers, know where to place mines, etc. Whereas torpedoes, most tac Boffs have torp powers, they fire faster, and you can use them for both actively pursuing a target or just about any other situation.
    Just saying, mines need more utility overall.

    Umm no. The issue with mines is more than that. You can't make a mine boat. You can do all torps and do just fine...but all mines...yeah good luck with that.
    Yes you can. One of my favourite builds is a mine boat and I often use it over my torpedo boat as it puts out something silly like 50 to 100 mines at a time and does sustained DPS. I know most people find torpedoes easier to use and there are more torpedo options but Hot Pursuit is a game changer for mines, it more than triples their effectiveness.

    I do admit it’s harder to make a mine boat as there is less knowledge, less advice out there. Since the mine boost, mine boats have been doable and work more then well enough.
  • midnightrider7midnightrider7 Member Posts: 9 Arc User

    In this example using a pairing of cannons with torpedoes, you would actually get to use the torpedo's high damage against the hull of ships via ripping them down by using your cannons. Even if it were made that the damage against the hull for torpedos, and the shields for cannons were upped to 185-195% without further reducing the damage they deal against shields/torpedos an hull/cannons, they would actually be even more complimenting an imperative to beams.[/quote]


    It works that way now. What makes all beam builds so good is that you can make them crit so high. When you take away the crits cannons take down shields faster and torpedoes take down unshielded targets faster then anything else in game. Some of the youtubers have touched on this without going into much detail. I would like to see alot more talk on these kind of builds.

    I don't know what direction the dev's want to go with this game, but these kind of builds do very good in this game. If some of the dps builders would put some time into these builds they could make them alot better than I ever could. Put them out on youtube and it could solve alot of the problems with stf's as well as bring some understanding to why the dev's did what they did in the balance pass.
  • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    ^Also, beams have two major perks besides crit. They work with subsytem abilities, and they universally have better arcs than their counterparts, save turrets.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    They DID give torps some love. The grav torps with even a TS1 will do some decent damage.

    Mines on the other hand...yeah those really do need some love.

    Maybe a total overhaul to make them somewhat less situational and limited?

    Right...because getting some love = a total overhaul of the weapon system which the dev team they have now barely understand at all. That is just some minor thing and not a major overhaul of a base game system. Yep...that what that term means. How aboput NO. Torps got some love. It's not just the grav torps. With things like the missles with low cooldowns to trigger the proj doffs, torp builds got plenty of love lately. If you can't make a decent torp build now, the issue ain't the game system...the issue is you not knowing enough about the game. We don't fix that by changing the game to suit YOU being ignorant.
    I was specifically talking about mines, you know. The key issue is that mines are basically completely useless.
    They are not useless my mines often do more DPS then my torpedoes. The problem with mines is most people don’t know how to use them and don’t take the right combo of stuff to make them decent and they don’t take mine bridge powers. Putting a well placed large mine field in the right spawn point does high damage. You can wipe out entire waves of ships within seconds.

    The problem with mines is that most of the unique and special mines do rubbish or half the damage of basic normal mines. For example the Competition mine sounds good but in practises does less damage then basic mines. Same for the Tethered Q mine its completely rubbish doing worse than half the damage of basic mines.

    All they need to do is fix the few bugs and fix the unique special mines so they are worth using and fix the traits which should work with mines but are broken.

    Never said they weren't damaging. The issue is utility. Mines, you need very specific setups, planning, etc. As I detailed in the rest of the paragraph, you need to specifically get mine powers, know where to place mines, etc. Whereas torpedoes, most tac Boffs have torp powers, they fire faster, and you can use them for both actively pursuing a target or just about any other situation.
    Just saying, mines need more utility overall.

    Umm no. The issue with mines is more than that. You can't make a mine boat. You can do all torps and do just fine...but all mines...yeah good luck with that.
    Yes you can. One of my favourite builds is a mine boat and I often use it over my torpedo boat as it puts out something silly like 50 to 100 mines at a time and does sustained DPS. I know most people find torpedoes easier to use and there are more torpedo options but Hot Pursuit is a game changer for mines, it more than triples their effectiveness.

    I do admit it’s harder to make a mine boat as there is less knowledge, less advice out there. Since the mine boost, mine boats have been doable and work more then well enough.

    You do know that cluster torps are not mines...right? Otherwise, how the hell do you have 50 mines out at one time considering mines have a long shared cooldown?!? Much less 100. Or are you spending 3 min laying down mines to lure things into it? You do realize that doesn't count...right?
    Clusters drop mines and so are perfectly valid as part of a mine layer build.

    There are lots of variations my 3 fav ships for mine layer builds are Jem’Hadar Dread Carrier, Tact Command Battlecruiser & Vorgon Carrier. It goes along the lines of 2 or 3 clusters & 1 Adv Temporal Torpedo. Take high yield and mine pattern beta and if possible con firepower or Kinetic Magnet but those last two are not needed. Each of those high yield shots via Adv Temporal Torpedo deploys a series of mines backed up by the cluster shots which drop more mines. In the rear slot I take a competition mine and one other mine launcher. Do this on a Vorgon Carrier which gives you 4 Vorgon Frigate. Each of those pets has both a mine launcher & dispersal pattern and you control those mine drops via Master of the mined. Not only do you effectively have 6 mine launchers going none stop with little cross cool down problem but you have 6 sources of mine patterns for sustained mine DPS.

    Master of the mined gives 33% resistance to mines and lets all active mines track towards the selected target even if outside of normal tracking range. Temporal Operative Phasic Artillery gives mines extra hit points combined this stops mines being destroyed all the time.

    Now stack up your mine boosting consoles both universal and tac consoles with +mines & crit serv as when 1 mine crits everything in that volley crits. 16 mines crit hitting at once with stacked crit serv is very high spike damage.

    Alternatively take the above style setup on a Command Cruiser. You lose the pets but with the set gain 2 defence platforms both of which drop mine fields every few seconds. For traits take Reverberation so mines knock shields offline and Hot Pursuit for 100% mine range.

    That’s just two examples out of my builds. If you really want to its possible to do rainbow mines and have Photon, Transphasics, Quantums, Chronitons, Plasma & Ticro mines all just about out at once on the command cruiser.




    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Torpedos needed substantial buffing but instead they nerfed them badly in the nerf patch.

    People just need to make peace with the fact that they aren't meant to use torpedos and move on.
    Its been pointed out to you before Torpedoes had a number of buffs in that nerf patch. Most of my torpedo boats when up in damage after that patch by a large amount. All my high yield based torp boats gained massively.

    What made up for the massive loss in damage from kinetic shearing?

    I've never understood why anyone would play any torp build, or any build at all other than enhanced battle cloak torpedo bomber, and they knifed that in the neck something fierce.
    The fix to projectile doffs which boosted DPS, fix to subspace warheads which on my builds do more damage than the loss from shearing, the change to con firepower which was a DPS boost, the added Reverberation trait which causes torps and mines to destroy shields within seconds so you constantly hit unshielded targets. The boost to torps like the grav torp which now benefits from EPG and Control.

    What I do is spam a massive amount of high yield shots via con firepower. Due to the Delphic torpedo each high yield volley gets extra torpedoes and each high yield creates a long lasting subspace tear via subspace warheads. The tears do large AoE damage and chase down targets. While Reverberation means my mines and torpedoes knock shields offline.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Once again, cluster torps are TORPEDOS. They are not mines. A mine boat needs to have ALL mines. if you need to mix in other weapon types. it just proves my point that mines needs some love so you can use JUST mines.
    Clusters drop mines and are boosted by +mine damage and work with mine traits, mine ability’s like master of mines. Clusters are not boosted by +torp damage and so are clearly fine to use on mine layer boat.

    Anyway if you want to be silly and say mines created by clusters are not real mines and do not count on a mine boat then remove them. Even without the clusters the build I described works and the sustained DPS mine field is created with 50+ mines.
    Let me guess dropping defence platforms that drop mines doesn’t count either in your books!!!
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    @pottsey5g do you have a build link for that mine build you could send me? I'd love to try that out on a few of me ships. :)
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  • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    Honestly, the best thing I could think of for mines and torps would be the ability to have "load" powers that would let you toggle different modes. Something like Damage, Shield break, or Effect
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