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How do you stop people from using (aka spamming) all beams?

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  • fluffymooffluffymoof Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    This thread is not happening, right?

    Are you aware that in S13 fire at will got a serious de-buff contributing to a game wide DPS drop of up to 40%?
    ^This, the S13 nerf dropped beams DPS maxes, anywhere from 40-50%, and in some cases, many top DPSers got more then 50% DPS drop.

    They nerfed the OPness of beams into the ground, and most other playstyles should be pretty easily able to compete if built right.

    NERF IT MORE THEN!!!!

    OK, in all seriousness, this response is quite correct. Beams were nerfed to the undiscovered 8th level of hell.

    What I've found to be really FUN lately is to use the T4 Defiant quad cannon in place of a torp and the Retro Blue Phasers. So my phaser build is:

    Front:Quad cannon, Beam, Beam, Beam or Cannon

    Rear: Beam, Borg Cutting Beam, Omni-directional Phaser (there's one from episode rewards), Undine Heavy bio-molectular Phaser Turret.

    Although I try not to run with tons and tons of cannons, it is kind of neat to see a BFAW + Cannon Rapid Fire combo. Yes, my build costs Zen now, but the Phonics Box event ALONE netted me an additional 7,400 Zen. That's more than enough to snag from the store. Yes, you have to do reputations, but who HASN'T or ISN'T doing them?
    One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!

    If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,891 Arc User
    @taylor1701d


    Hate to tell you this I have played many MMO's over the years and most nerf's happen because of Flavor of the month builds/spec's/class' get flooded and the devs take note of that and find a way to fix it and usually ends up with nerf's being the fix to that FotM stuff causing the nerf not whiners.

    Yup...pretty much.

    People would reroll new classes just because one class is so obviously dominate...can't tell you how many posts I've seen on various forums of people asking should I play this class or that class, not because they like them but because they're currently the strongest classes in game.



    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • blackshap9#1072 blackshap9 Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    This thread is not happening, right?

    Are you aware that in S13 fire at will got a serious de-buff contributing to a game wide DPS drop of up to 40%?
    ^This, the S13 nerf dropped beams DPS maxes, anywhere from 40-50%, and in some cases, many top DPSers got more then 50% DPS drop.

    They nerfed the OPness of beams into the ground, and most other playstyles should be pretty easily able to compete if built right.

    And about 40-50% of those players affected quit playing STO all together and moved on to other games.
    Elite Dangerous picked up many of the STO abandoners, and much of the fleeing PvP community.


    Why ?

    Because they were sold power creep. STO practically shoved it down their throat post DR. And they bought it legitimately.
    Only to have the whiners complain and complain and complain, until finally the DEVs thought a balance pass was in order to reign in game power.
    So their builds that they had paid good money for and spent a lot time acquiring suddenly became a lot less potent and desirable overnight.
    So they said to themselves; "Why should I support this product if they (Devs) will just keep moving the goal posts whenever it suits there needs, negating all the hard work and money I pumped into my build."

    And I for one don't blame them one bit.




    Hope those whiners realize, they are directly responsible for the mass exodus of players after s13. And devs have some responsibility in that they sold tons of power to make $$ and never took the care to make sure that new items and traits were balanced upon release.

    The first mass exodus of PvP and PvE players actually happened during Delta Rising, when they introduced the the power creep they're reigning in now.

    This exodus is just of those that were reliant on that power creep. Those of us that never bought into it, or cared about it, will just keep right on going.

    The ones leaving this time, are the ones that whined to get the power creep in Delta Rising. Which proves the point, power creep is fine, as long as it's balanced. But when it isn't, and it's running rampant through the game like a drunk bull in a china shop. It's highly detrimental to it.

    Before you blame the dev's for this. Blame the players that whined enough to get the power creep in the first place. The dev's gave them what they wanted. The dev's discovered that was a mistake. Now the dev's have to fix the problem. So it's not entirely the dev's fault here. But at least you can give them credit. They're taking the blame for their mistake, but showing that they're willing to fix it. Can the players say the same?

    Couple things here.
    There was a healthy enough PvP playerbase up until DR (granted, it was never as big as the pve player base but it was there). Then literally in the first few weeks after DR, many PvP players left because they opposed what was now possible in PvP thanks to OP ship traits, upgrade system, and Specialization abilities. (which is what you state)

    On the PvE side a lot of people left because their T5's were being "outclassed" by a new lineup of T6's. And the expense of upgrading their gear with boatloads of their precious dil. This is what a lot of fleet mates said to me when they decided to leave the game at that time.

    Now, you and I know a T5 is about as good as a T6... and that upgrading doesn't even need to be done for most content in the game. But to them it felt like they were being double dipped on hero ships, and paying too much (in their opinion) for the upgrade system.
    Can't say I blame them, they saw what was coming down the pipe at the outset.


    Where I disagree with you is where you say players leaving now asked for the power they were given and are as much to blame as the Devs.
    I myself never really heard that clamoring for moar power. If anything before DR people might've asked for better returns on science based skills, or that cannons were more powerful then beams (pre LoR), or that Tac Captains always outclassed Engi and Sci captains in combat due to their captain skills, GDF, APA.

    I never heard anyone saying, "Man, I wish there was more power in game" ..or "Things don't die fast enough" ..or "Gee whiz, I wish I could upgrade my weapons because this game is too hard, and my weapons barely do any damage !"
    Just never saw that myself. Maybe I'm misremembering .. But I don't remember it. If you have examples please share.


    And I don't blame the Devs in the sense they just wanted to make more money for STO, that's fine by me, because every MMOrpg game needs a little power creep to keep things fresh, and push people into new content (or old).
    But like you said, the approach they took was that of a bull running rampant through a china shop.
    Add to that a poor QA testing scheme, and here we are, like 2.5 years later.

    I remember pre LoR a really high DPS was like 20-40k DPS.
    And right before the S13 rebalance the highest hitters were scoring like 500-800k DPS. A 10x-15x increase in raw power from where we started at the outset of LoR.
    I think we can agree that's not normal for even the most power creep hungry games.


    I'll just say that I do give the Devs praise and appreciate their work. This is still my favorite game after all, and I wouldn't play it otherwise.
    So yes, they've created an experience I really enjoy, especially impressive considering their limited budget.

    It just bothers me knowing that this rebalance led to many people leaving the game, (all you have to do is look at DPS channel activity before rebalance and after to see just how many people quit, or just don't care anymore).
    I resent that the once busy DPS channels are pretty much ghost towns now.
    I resent that PUG queues have become even more atrocious since S13 with the average to low end players utility falling somewhere between "useless" and "borg tickler" in PvE missions.

    It's noticeably more frustrating to use PUG queues now.

    Which leads to even emptier queues btw - another huge issue STO is dealing with atm.



    I'm not saying the S13 rebalance wasn't needed... But, it was the Devs themselves who built up power for so long that there was no other alternative 2 years after DR. So they kind of brought it on themselves to be fair.


    And now... well, they're busy trying to re-sell us power. I just hope this time they don't let it get out of control again.

    I hate seeing this games population decline (and seeing fleet friends leave game) because of things like the "S13 balance pass" that could've totally been prevented or mitigated with a little careful planning.

    It bothers me because I want this game to be as successful as possible, and bleeding player base every few major updates is not a way to keep this operation healthy.

    Anyway, I just hope we don't find ourselves in the same situation a year or two down the line or I will be really discouraged.

    Applause for the BEST post I have ever read in the forum explain the current state of the game. *clapping*

    Unfortunately they seem to be making the same mistake again making engineer cruiser TANK ships unbeatable. Tanking is one of the most boring ways to play (IMO) and now with tank carriers you don't have to do much but sit there and press buttons... no thinking involved.

    BTW, since the season 13 nerf, the old beam boats remain the apex build. There was nothing wrong with going for crazy high DPS... it had no effect on the game or the way other people played it. It was a way for people to enjoy themselves after they finished playing the game... why would they nerf that? Who cares if they had 1 milion DPS... how does that effect me? It didn't but by nerfing the DPS it effected THEM and they left... IT MAKES NO SENSE??? Those people were spending a fortune to make new DPS ships... they were stupid to nerf it and I was never even a DPS player. They should have just opened a DPS server to allow them all to play together. I have no faith in these devs... they need to be removed.
  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    The problem isn't that they nerfed things though, the problem is in a lot of cases they went too far.
    Like take the plasma exploders, yeah they were overperforming, but they ended up double nerfing them by chaging the proc mechanics on weapons AND slashing their damage output.
    The end result is that the plasma exploders are now literally "worthless", there is literally no conceivable reason in the game for a person to use them.
    You might argue that a person may still want to increase or decrease threat generation, but the other console types are objectively more useful still.
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
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  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    The problem isn't that they nerfed things though, the problem is in a lot of cases they went too far.
    Like take the plasma exploders, yeah they were overperforming, but they ended up double nerfing them by chaging the proc mechanics on weapons AND slashing their damage output.
    The end result is that the plasma exploders are now literally "worthless", there is literally no conceivable reason in the game for a person to use them.
    You might argue that a person may still want to increase or decrease threat generation, but the other console types are objectively more useful still.

    Thats a lie.

    They said in their blog that everything would retain its value, I ask you not to spread these falsehoods on the forum.

    Sarcasm or just trolling? :p
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
    How do you stop people from using (aka spamming) all beams?
    You don't. Next question.
    tumblr_p7auh1JPC61qfr6udo4_500.gif
  • blackshap9#1072 blackshap9 Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    Thats a lie.

    They said in their blog that everything would retain its value, I ask you not to spread these falsehoods on the forum. [/quote]

    Sarcasm or just trolling? :p
    [/quote]

    a little of both but he is a forum fly that is very trollish
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    Energy weapons (Especially beams) have been dominant in this game for a long **** time however I am not sure how Cryptic could fix this. What ways could Cryptic punish players for using 8 beams on a cruiser rather then using torpedoes (which seem very niche). Rather then just releasing increasingly powerful torpedo weapons.

    Personally, I don't think you should be punished in game for wanting to build ships the actual canon way rather then just spamming beams on all 8 slots.

    Is anyone else sick of spacebar spamming zombie cruisers? At least Escorts require some piloting skill.

    There actually is a solution to this problem called energy torpedos. For example if you have anti proton beams you can hit up the phoenix even to get the crystal torpedo launcher which benefits from the AP consoles your beams use. Disruptor builds can use the naussican torpedo from the one newer mission with the Lukari. There are options now and more are coming out as time progresses with plasma in the lobi store and the latest mission having another energy type torpedo.
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
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  • warrynnpeese#0791 warrynnpeese Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    Energy weapons (Especially beams) have been dominant in this game for a long **** time however I am not sure how Cryptic could fix this. What ways could Cryptic punish players for using 8 beams on a cruiser rather then using torpedoes (which seem very niche). Rather then just releasing increasingly powerful torpedo weapons.

    Personally, I don't think you should be punished in game for wanting to build ships the actual canon way rather then just spamming beams on all 8 slots.

    Is anyone else sick of spacebar spamming zombie cruisers? At least Escorts require some piloting skill.




    For myself I decided to use 3 omni beams (aft weapons), three beams (Fore weapons), and usually 1-2 torp (1 fore, 1 aft), or 1 torp (fore)/1 mine (aft)...usually because of rep set gear/boosts in my Oddy (like the Terran Taskforce Disruptor set which requires the use of a torpedo to get all three set bonuses that I like. Whatever ship I end up using , I always make sure 2 weapons slots and 1 console slot are always open on my ships, (but not for per say the cutting beam- I only use the beam and corresponding console to "save space" for a possible 2 or 3 piece rep set to be added. I tend to try to "stuff" 3-4 rep sets (variating 2-3 pieces per set), AND THE COMBOS ARE FUN!!! (especially when you experiment with the various combos available- and I'm just talkin rep sets alone..... also one day when my main toon can miraculously acquire DOff "Gummarre"- the AEGIS DOff, I'll experiment with the Aegis gear, too!) I will admit I was slightly annoyed about the "change over" (it also inadvertently forced me to experiment with other weapons types I was initially shy of toying around with- Tetryon beams for example with the kick-off of this season, and for someone like me who hasn't had time to "grind" resources (dil, credits, etc), the changeover set me back resource-wize, but I'm still having fun building new ships and upgrading my favorite ones, too!
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  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    The solution is both simple and elegant...

    Remove all weapons slots from all starship. With no weapons slot there is no way to install beam weapons on starships.
  • fluffymooffluffymoof Member Posts: 430 Arc User

    jaguarskx wrote: »
    The solution is both simple and elegant...

    Remove all weapons slots from all starship. With no weapons slot there is no way to install beam weapons on starships.

    Nerf EVERYTHING. My God, this man gets it!
    One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!

    If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    jaguarskx wrote: »
    The solution is both simple and elegant...

    Remove all weapons slots from all starship. With no weapons slot there is no way to install beam weapons on starships.

    RAMMING SPEED!

    We can then change the name from Star Trek Online, to Space Pong Online.

    Or Space Pinball Online!
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    . What ways could Cryptic punish players for using 8 beams on a cruiser.
    1. Increase the 'additional weapon drain'. Instead of a linear '-10 per' line, make it a more quadratic drain curve.
    2. Sub-divide the weapon hard-points and make 1 fore & aft slot a torpedo only slot.
    3. Nerf the Aux2batt build to uselessness.
    4. Make the Active Doff area only accept 1 of any type doff.
    5. Give +dmg weapon consoles diminishing returns.

    I'm all for the third one no matter what happens. People running around with all systems >100 all the time is a broken mechanic, imo.
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
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  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    Another option might be implementing methods of making mixed weapon/energy type builds a bit more appealing to use compared to the single energy/weapon type builds. Which could be thru either a mechanic either thru a new specialization, or console/ship-trait that gives some form of buff/bonus if you are using a mixed energy/weapon type load out (could tailor the buff gained to what type of mixture of weapons/energy types you are using). Also there is the idea of implementing dual weapon/energy buffing type tactical consoles. Yet I would not mind seeing more need to manually manage your power levels again, sometimes it feels like it is almost like they could take out the ability to manually control your power level without much issues happening.
  • ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    OP : Nobody is stopping you from stepping up your game except you. Others should not be punished for your lack of skill, comprehension or gear EVER. The only time nerfs should be placed is when things a grossly overpowered BFAW was one that needed fixing for years and finally it was. Cannons were grossly underpowered in many situations with a severe drop off that was fixed as far as raw damage there is more or less a balance between them now with each having thier own strengths and weaknesses. This game has a learning curve that can be steep and just throwing gear on randomly doesn't always work and can definetly leave you in the low end of the DPS pool. Not that it really matters as outside of "I have a big johnson brags" the game can be gone all the way to the end with greens and 12's. If you are mad cause you got vaped in PVP thats a fact of life in STO . Why because by it's nature STO is not really geared for PVP with the wide range of builds that one can create ther is no balance in it. Unless some radical changes take place limiting PVP to vanilla pre build ships where it is raw skill and not bulds that win the battle PVP will remain dead to the vast majority of players who wish for an equal footing fight.
    So all I can say in closing OP is instead of crying unfair whaaa nerf this or that learn the dyanmics of the game and how your build works or doesn't. God knows there are more then enough build guides out there.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Didn't aux2bat builds get eclipsed like literally years ago.

    It was. Still it did not stop … slow … peeps to throw in occasional “I hate aux2bat” comments into team chats well into 2016.

    After the S13 balance pass by the way I would still not claim aux2bat to be the best way to manage CD times but again a fairly competitive one. AMP from warp cores is not as potent is it used to be and the penalty for using the lower copies of FAW is now rather tough.

    There a few (expensive) alternatives to aux2bat but the mechanism still gets the job done nicely to keep FAW III global instead of cycling it with FAW II or I for example.

    The traits of the new ugly ships seem to step in here.
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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    Pretty irrelevant. Beams spamming is the center of the support/tank classes and also managing it to optimally perform is a matter of building prowess, besides some certain wealth to it.

    If you kill the "beam spam", there won't be no tank to keep you alive when you spike up with a crit and you get mobed by a bunch of enemy ships in your spiky aoe escort.

    You can build a "canonical" build and still perform slightly above average. It's been proven time and time again. Just study up and ask for help. We're here to help you trek your game up.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I really can't say much here. The only thing I disagree with on beams is the targeting arc. Which should be reduced to 180 degrees. It makes more sense to me than the 250 degree arc.

    As far as the extra power drain. I could see that vary by ship type.

    The more warship types, i.e. escorts and battle cruisers, should get a reduced power usage for weapons. They're designed for battle.

    Standard Cruisers and Carriers, should be the neutral here. The -10 weapon power works here.

    Science ships should really have an increased weapon power cost, say -15. This is because they aren't designed to be in battle.

    Again, this is just me, and looking at the ships for what they are designed to be.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    Aux2Batt builds are still viable. You just gotta know that they don't apply to all the ships who can host 2 copies of a2b or to any build who needs CD reduction. They underperform dps-wise at worst with an 8-10%. Which can be managed with better timing, better stats and better teamplay/teamdebuff.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,251 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Some people used to use torpedos but they severely nerfed them earlier this year to get people to focus only on beams.
    That's not true most torpedoes got a major buff after the bug fixes and new options. Apart from my Rom Hyper which got worse and tribalt which are still broken all my other torpedoe builds have gone up in damage by a large amount.

    The changes to ConFirepower with the fix to torpedo doffs and fix to Subspatial warheads have massively boosted torpedoes. Even shields are no longer a problem due to the new options.

    Mine builds have also had a large buff and are now viable.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,251 Arc User
    orondis wrote: »
    Here are the problems

    1. Most torps are 90 degree weapons. That makes them useless for broadsiding.

    2. Energy weapons and torps seem to have a different damage curve. When you start the game everything feels like Star Trek. Torps are heavy hitters and will usually wipe the opponent out when hitting them through a downed shield (back in ancient Lt Cmdr PvP, a torp strike through a downed shield meant you're living on borrowed time... or dead).

    At LvL 5
    Mk II torp = about 2500
    Mk II beam array = about 150-200 (lets say a max of 800 for a firing cycle)

    So if you're in a light cruiser, with 2 beam arrays and a torp, that torp does more damage then the two beam arrays combined (for one firing cycle).

    At Lvl 60
    Mk XIV Torp = 6000-8000
    Mk XIV beam array = 2000-3000 (lets say a max of 12000 for a firing cycle)

    And there's the problem. One beam array does more damage than a torp. You really rely on that torp hit critting to make it worthwhile.

    3. Firing a torp will lock the others out for a very short duration. Firing a beam array will not.

    4. A slither of shield can make them worthless.

    That’s not true a slither of shields is useless against torps and doesn’t make them worthless. One beam shouldn’t be doing more damage. My torpedos are something like over 20k per torpedo and 1 volley with high yield 1 is over 80k. That’s all without crits or factoring in extra damage from traits which push is over 100k. Its no good looking at base damage as single fire torpedoes scale up in damage better then one beam array.

    Not only is a slither of shields no good at stopping torpedoes on my build 100% shields do not stop my torpedoes.

    I also have a broadside torpedo boat although I admit its hard to get hold of what you need. There are only 4 I think it is broadside torpedoes in game.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Some people used to use torpedos but they severely nerfed them earlier this year to get people to focus only on beams.
    That's not true most torpedoes got a major buff after the bug fixes. Apart from my Rom Hyper which got worse and tribalt which are still broken all my other torpedoe builds have gone up in damage by a large amount.

    Mine builds have also had a large buff and are now viable. The changes to ConFirepower with the fix to torpedo doffs and Subspatial warheads have massively boosted torpedoes.

    Lets not forget the missile packs. While they're a good quick fire weapon. They're damage is a bit low.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
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