I don't notice anything out of order with turrets in general tbh... And I wouldn't say its a 50% DPS hit.. Maybe 20-30% at most.
One thing that can help though is the Trait from the T6 Defiant. Withering Barrage.
Gives you longer Scatter volleys.
My turret runs would parse between 35-50k dps.
More then adequate for just about any content in the game.
Nothing wrong with a good turret build in the right hands.
People who are much better pilots then I were taking turret builds well above 75k at one point.
Probably a handful have even broken 100k with all turrets.
A source of confusion with those is that most parsed runs were using the old plasma consoles and pre-13 balance, before they got nerfed into the dirt.
Again, turrets are usable in most general content, but it would be nice to see some content added that reinforces those builds under controlled circumstances. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah as another posted, (near 100k+ with plasma explosion consoles)
I was flying with 1 plasma explosion console at the time. So was def not Plas-Ex Doping.
Wasn't using keybinds either, just conventional tray clicking.. And I still hit over 50k on numerous occasions.
Just didn't have the room on board for more PlasEx consoles. Because I was experimenting with using several 2 piece +Disruptor damage console sets.
Bio turret and console + Hydrodynamic tac console and uni console set.
*Oh and I guess it was actually 7 turrets and 1 single cannon; Elachi Crescent cannon + Crit Sev console set.
(Which all gave meager cat1 disruptor damage buffs. + some extra radiation from the hydrodynamic tac console for kemo).
So this build was in no way optimal or anywhere near 100% DPS efficiency (compared to loading up on Plasma explosion consoles).
That all said, I was still face rolling everything without any noticeable issues though, so not sure what the issue you have with them is... ? Perhaps its your piloting and not the gear/ship ?
Conversely, I had a Disruptor beam build (Nandi) at the time utilizing similar sets and (1) plasma explosion console which got up to 77k pre nerf.
So going from beams to turrets (+1 single cannon - Elachi Crescent) wasn't that severe of a drop in damage output all things considered. It was nowhere near the estimated 50% damage output reduction you suggest. Sorry.
I'll try to it out again though, just to see, and post my results. Haven't actually used it much since the space nerfs. But I'm sure it'll perform just fine, since it never made use of PlasEx doping to begin with. Nor OSS for that matter. Nandi cant use intel powers/abilities.
AP is a good build if you have the Crystalline Energy Torpedo, as it is enhanced by AP-boosting consoles...
Disruptors can get in on this thanks to the Entoiled Technology set; you'll have to settle for the 2-piece bonus because for some silly reason there isn't a turret weapon option - something the Krenim Temporal Manipulation package does offer. One does wonder, though, when we'll have access to the tetryon torpedo used by the Tzenkethi...
More relevant, a cannon/turret combo on a maneuverable ship can be just plain fun to fly; bonus points if you have... appropriate music cued up (a recent discovery in this vein is the soundtrack for House of the Dying Sun, which is legitimately available for the low, low price of free; you can't go too wrong with Homeworld or Ace Combat tuneage, either). Since I'd brought up tetryons, I would point out that they're a fairly cheap energy type to experiment in this vein with (credit to Timberwolf for the basis). Take the abovementioned set with the turret option; tack on piercing-tetryon dual cannons and turrets (you can replay 'Installation 18' for these); add the TPG consoles (replay 'Midnight' for these).
I don't really see where the turret hate is coming from. Turrets benefit from all cannon abilities, turrets fire in every direction and with that firing arc can fire every moment of an engagement. I think it's a pushback against it's low damage but given how they work it's no surprise it's damage isn't on par with the smaller firing arc cannons. Not even omni-beams have the same damage as beam arrays for the same reason.
It's about how you fit your ship. Fit it right any weapon can be made to work.
I don't really see where the turret hate is coming from. Turrets benefit from all cannon abilities, turrets fire in every direction and with that firing arc can fire every moment of an engagement. I think it's a pushback against it's low damage but given how they work it's no surprise it's damage isn't on par with the smaller firing arc cannons. Not even omni-beams have the same damage as beam arrays for the same reason.
It's about how you fit your ship. Fit it right any weapon can be made to work.
Absolutely, it's rigid DPS/Meta-adhering thinking, that if a weapon system isn't delivering a high DPS output, it's not worth slotting.
I switched my regular polaron turrets for Vaadwaur polaron turrets, and although their DPS figure was slightly lower than the original turrets, the various other boosts delivered by the Vaadwaur, such as turn, or rapid, etc, meant that overall performance received an improvement, which made that ~10-15% loss of DPS a very acceptable tradeoff.
If someone's aim is only to boost their DPS output to better levels, then they're not really going to appreciate what something which doesn't further that goal, offers
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Took a Fleet Arbiter and put 8 Advanced Fleet Phaser Turrets (Dmgx3 CrtD) on it. Geared it with anything that boosted weapon/phaser damage and took it out for a bit.. I'll admit.. it did better then I thought.
Sure, the per shot damage is anemic compared to dual heavy cannons, dual beam banks, or even single beams.. but it does make up for it somewhat with volume and speed. I just chained Scatter Volley and never stopped firing.. it was actually pretty cool.
It's a very fun build, not 'optimal' but definitely viable. I just did a couple Red Alerts and a Battlezone, nothing too intensive, but it took things out at a pretty respectable pace. I suspect that it would get a significant boost if I upgraded the turrets to Mark XIV and added the Withering Barrage trait. Now I just need a Ship sale, and an Upgrade weekend and I'll probably try and see how much I can squeeze out of it.
Is it going to top DPS charts? Not even close.. but it's definitely viable and quite a bit of fun to play.
Took a Fleet Arbiter and put 8 Advanced Fleet Phaser Turrets (Dmgx3 CrtD) on it. Geared it with anything that boosted weapon/phaser damage and took it out for a bit.. I'll admit.. it did better then I thought.
Sure, the per shot damage is anemic compared to dual heavy cannons, dual beam banks, or even single beams.. but it does make up for it somewhat with volume and speed. I just chained Scatter Volley and never stopped firing.. it was actually pretty cool.
It's a very fun build, not 'optimal' but definitely viable. I just did a couple Red Alerts and a Battlezone, nothing too intensive, but it took things out at a pretty respectable pace. I suspect that it would get a significant boost if I upgraded the turrets to Mark XIV and added the Withering Barrage trait. Now I just need a Ship sale, and an Upgrade weekend and I'll probably try and see how much I can squeeze out of it.
Is it going to top DPS charts? Not even close.. but it's definitely viable and quite a bit of fun to play.
CRF looks neat too... Like a chaingun or something. Very satisfying.
Took a Fleet Arbiter and put 8 Advanced Fleet Phaser Turrets (Dmgx3 CrtD) on it. Geared it with anything that boosted weapon/phaser damage and took it out for a bit.. I'll admit.. it did better then I thought.
Sure, the per shot damage is anemic compared to dual heavy cannons, dual beam banks, or even single beams.. but it does make up for it somewhat with volume and speed. I just chained Scatter Volley and never stopped firing.. it was actually pretty cool.
It's a very fun build, not 'optimal' but definitely viable. I just did a couple Red Alerts and a Battlezone, nothing too intensive, but it took things out at a pretty respectable pace. I suspect that it would get a significant boost if I upgraded the turrets to Mark XIV and added the Withering Barrage trait. Now I just need a Ship sale, and an Upgrade weekend and I'll probably try and see how much I can squeeze out of it.
Is it going to top DPS charts? Not even close.. but it's definitely viable and quite a bit of fun to play.
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with those observations: They're effective builds, and definitely fun, even if not necessarily chart-toppers. If you've got the spare ec, try swapping the turrets from phaser to polaron, so you can experience that beautiful drain effect. Very different effect on the target, but very effective and safisfying to unleash
My only real gripe with such builds, is that they're more geared towards taking down one target at a time, because scatter volley doesn't put a target on everything in the same way BFAW will hit everything within range, so a less effective build for Red Alerts than beams, simply due to the multiple targets. But, as Trevor Philips once observed, "it gets the job done..."
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I also like using the pulse phaser turrets because it's fun to watch them track the target. That and there's the occasional glitch with the visuals that makes the cannon and turret fire do some weird zig-zagging thing when first fired.
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Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
what's this nonsense about "how you fly your ship" with turrets? they are by default 360. just stick to your target (under 10 km) and it'll go boom sooner or later. for single target it's east mode.
unless they nerf procs to be from per shot to per activation...
if they put in a function that'll let you auto follow a target within 10km... you dont even need to control your ship just tab to next target...
what's this nonsense about "how you fly your ship" with turrets? they are by default 360. just stick to your target (under 10 km) and it'll go boom sooner or later. for single target it's east mode.
unless they nerf procs to be from per shot to per activation...
if they put in a function that'll let you auto follow a target within 10km... you dont even need to control your ship just tab to next target...
They have nerfed the proc from per shot to per cycle
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
what's this nonsense about "how you fly your ship" with turrets? they are by default 360. just stick to your target (under 10 km) and it'll go boom sooner or later. for single target it's east mode.
unless they nerf procs to be from per shot to per activation...
if they put in a function that'll let you auto follow a target within 10km... you dont even need to control your ship just tab to next target...
They have nerfed the proc from per shot to per cycle
That is incorrect. Procs have always been 'per cycle'. There was for a while a bug with Fire at Will that made it proc the per-cycle procs every shot, and a few procs that were changed to per-shot due to them massively overperforming with Fire at Will due to that bug. This bug was fixed. Outside of the topic of those abilities that were reverted to per-cycle when Fire at Will was fixed, turrets were completely unaffected by this bugfix, and the change to those few abilities were felt the same by every weapon type.
Took a Fleet Arbiter and put 8 Advanced Fleet Phaser Turrets (Dmgx3 CrtD) on it. Geared it with anything that boosted weapon/phaser damage and took it out for a bit.. I'll admit.. it did better then I thought.
Sure, the per shot damage is anemic compared to dual heavy cannons, dual beam banks, or even single beams.. but it does make up for it somewhat with volume and speed. I just chained Scatter Volley and never stopped firing.. it was actually pretty cool.
It's a very fun build, not 'optimal' but definitely viable. I just did a couple Red Alerts and a Battlezone, nothing too intensive, but it took things out at a pretty respectable pace. I suspect that it would get a significant boost if I upgraded the turrets to Mark XIV and added the Withering Barrage trait. Now I just need a Ship sale, and an Upgrade weekend and I'll probably try and see how much I can squeeze out of it.
Is it going to top DPS charts? Not even close.. but it's definitely viable and quite a bit of fun to play.
That's the appeal of it, yeah. And as mentioned throughout the thread... it is viable. But it would be nice to see some consoles or traits designed to help that kind of build out.
Unfortunately people have just been debating whether turrets are bad (they aren't) rather than gestating ideas on what they'd like to see. A problem with the culture on this forum, I think; it can be hard to discuss anything if anyone senses even the slightest hint of negativity, so nothing gets discussed.
They're fun but nonoptimal builds. I'd like to see them get something to flesh their identity out more.
what's this nonsense about "how you fly your ship" with turrets? they are by default 360. just stick to your target (under 10 km) and it'll go boom sooner or later. for single target it's east mode.
unless they nerf procs to be from per shot to per activation...
if they put in a function that'll let you auto follow a target within 10km... you dont even need to control your ship just tab to next target...
Cannons are far less effective at distance than up close. When flying my BoP I don't drop cloak until 5km and I try to stay outside of 2km to avoid the warp core breach. Beams also suffer diminishing returns over greater distance, but with cannons you aren't firing when you point the wrong way, so you have to maximize your impact moreso than with beams.
A turret build with scatter volley might make a good weapon setup for a tank build if you use threat and torp spread or other AOE attacks to maintain aggro, (an accomplishment in itself!) With the Defiant trait and constant cycling between targets, I could see this build drawing fire from everything that's not getting hammered by the battlecruisers.
3 ranks of long-range targeting sensors almost completely neutralizes the distance penalty with energy weapons...and no one smart running an energy weapon build would ever NOT have those 3 ranks, so the damage drop-off is a non-issue
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3 ranks of long-range targeting sensors almost completely neutralizes the distance penalty with energy weapons...and no one smart running an energy weapon build would ever NOT have those 3 ranks, so the damage drop-off is a non-issue
LRTSs are pointless for a gutpuncher. Even in a cruiser I get up close and personal, so for me it makes sense to sacrifice those LTRS ranks in favor of more hull and shield capacity.
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
Turrets were quite nice if using builds like "Protonic Kool-Aid", which relied on constant procs. But when the per-shot mechanic was replaced with per firing cycle for the cannon weapon types, that pretty much decapitated their desirability IMO. I still use Kool-Aid builds, but switched over to beam arrays.
Turrets are still fun, though... It is still nice to see a constant stream of fire going out to a target. Individually, the turrets do a small amount of damage, but using 8 of them and with keeping your weapon power level high, they still do good damage.
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Unfortunately people have just been debating whether turrets are bad (they aren't) rather than gestating ideas on what they'd like to see. A problem with the culture on this forum, I think; it can be hard to discuss anything if anyone senses even the slightest hint of negativity, so nothing gets discussed.
They're fun but nonoptimal builds. I'd like to see them get something to flesh their identity out more.
To touch on that subject..
I honestly don't think they should be made any better. Why? Because if you went too far with improvements, they would easily make everything else obsolete. Why would anyone use Beams or Cannons if Turrets were on par power wise? They're fun to play yes, but they're also incredibly easy.. they don't take any real positioning to use. You just slap them on your ship, fly into the middle of a pack and start spraying everywhere. They don't take the skill and positioning that cannons take and with Scatter Volley they can be even easier against large packs then Fire At Will. The downside is that they aren't as effective.
The problem with Turrets is that if you boosted them from 'viable' to 'desirable' they would become the new meta overnight and everyone would use them. As it is, there is just starting to be some actual parity between Cannons and Beams, to come along and make Turrets far better then either would be counter productive to that cause.
I like the idea of the turret build, and it's fun to play.. but honestly, I don't think they can do all that much to make them more powerful. They're not even intended to be used as a full build, they're supposed to complement cannons. I honestly think they're about as good as they're going to get.
I honestly don't think they should be made any better. Why? Because if you went too far with improvements, they would easily make everything else obsolete. Why would anyone use Beams or Cannons if Turrets were on par power wise? They're fun to play yes, but they're also incredibly easy.. they don't take any real positioning to use. You just slap them on your ship, fly into the middle of a pack and start spraying everywhere. They don't take the skill and positioning that cannons take and with Scatter Volley they can be even easier against large packs then Fire At Will. The downside is that they aren't as effective.
The problem with Turrets is that if you boosted them from 'viable' to 'desirable' they would become the new meta overnight and everyone would use them. As it is, there is just starting to be some actual parity between Cannons and Beams, to come along and make Turrets far better then either would be counter productive to that cause.
I like the idea of the turret build, and it's fun to play.. but honestly, I don't think they can do all that much to make them more powerful. They're not even intended to be used as a full build, they're supposed to complement cannons. I honestly think they're about as good as they're going to get.
That's why you do so in the form of a console or trait that only procs under circumstances the developers consider to be safe. It doesn't even have to be damage-focused. Everyone playing STO just thinks in terms of damage.
It could be something as simple as a console that applies stacks of itself onto targets when using turrets, and when a max amount of stacks is reached, creates small gravity wells around them, rewarding people for grouping targets up with scatter volley.
Or a trait that causes Scatter Volley on turrets to no longer have the 45 degree restriction if they're within [x]km of your ship.
Or another console that peppers the areas turrets hit with small clouds of plasma that slows ships, when activated.
Basically, anything that gives turrets a little more identity. You just have to identify what turrets do that you want to exemplify and reward. It doesn't have to be damage focused. Not everything in the game needs to have a +15% energy damage bonus attached to it, or be yet another 2 minute recharge, 8 second duration damage buff. There's way too much of that in STO.
I honestly don't think they should be made any better. Why? Because if you went too far with improvements, they would easily make everything else obsolete. Why would anyone use Beams or Cannons if Turrets were on par power wise? They're fun to play yes, but they're also incredibly easy.. they don't take any real positioning to use. You just slap them on your ship, fly into the middle of a pack and start spraying everywhere. They don't take the skill and positioning that cannons take and with Scatter Volley they can be even easier against large packs then Fire At Will. The downside is that they aren't as effective.
The problem with Turrets is that if you boosted them from 'viable' to 'desirable' they would become the new meta overnight and everyone would use them. As it is, there is just starting to be some actual parity between Cannons and Beams, to come along and make Turrets far better then either would be counter productive to that cause.
I like the idea of the turret build, and it's fun to play.. but honestly, I don't think they can do all that much to make them more powerful. They're not even intended to be used as a full build, they're supposed to complement cannons. I honestly think they're about as good as they're going to get.
That's why you do so in the form of a console or trait that only procs under circumstances the developers consider to be safe. It doesn't even have to be damage-focused. Everyone playing STO just thinks in terms of damage.
It could be something as simple as a console that applies stacks of itself onto targets when using turrets, and when a max amount of stacks is reached, creates small gravity wells around them, rewarding people for grouping targets up with scatter volley.
Or a trait that causes Scatter Volley on turrets to no longer have the 45 degree restriction if they're within [x]km of your ship.
Or another console that peppers the areas turrets hit with small clouds of plasma that slows ships, when activated.
Basically, anything that gives turrets a little more identity. You just have to identify what turrets do that you want to exemplify and reward. It doesn't have to be damage focused. Not everything in the game needs to have a +15% energy damage bonus attached to it, or be yet another 2 minute recharge, 8 second duration damage buff. There's way too much of that in STO.
Some of those ideas sound pretty cool, and I am right on board with you.
While I would love to see something like this, my gut says that Cryptic has no real interest in pushing turret boat builds. I might be wrong, I'm basing that on nothing but my gut feeling, it just doesn't seem like all turrets was ever an option that Cryptic intended for players to use.
I'm basing this on nothing other then the fact that in all my years of playing this game, I have never seen anything implemented into this game that was designed to improve turret performance. Honestly, this fact alone makes me want to play one.. makes me feel like I'm rebelling against the system. lol
Anything that says it improves cannons improves turrets. Energy weapon, let alone all dmg buffs boosting turrets should be a no-brainer. I find it hard to believe that you see nothing falling into those categories you could use on your turret ships.
Anything that says it improves cannons improves turrets. Energy weapon, let alone all dmg buffs boosting turrets should be a no-brainer. I find it hard to believe that you see nothing falling into those categories you could use on your turret ships.
I know all of that.
I was referring to anything specific to turrets like what the OP is requesting.
Anything that says it improves cannons improves turrets. Energy weapon, let alone all dmg buffs boosting turrets should be a no-brainer. I find it hard to believe that you see nothing falling into those categories you could use on your turret ships.
I know all of that.
I was referring to anything specific to turrets like what the OP is requesting.
Sure you do and you covered it quite well in your posts. I think as well that turrets have a “designed function” like almost all other weapons. They are good at that but reach their limits otherwise.
The OP tries a bit, as stated mostly out of aesthetic reasons, to stretch the boundaries of this weapons type. Sure it can be done but one is likely to run into the same limitations one would encounter when putting mines and omni beams in front weapon slots. It will work but other stuff will simply work better.
What I would do here is give single cannons a shot for front and turrets in aft. I run with one single cannon on my DHC escorts and I’m often surprised how well it can compete with the other DHCs.
Single cannons have 180° arc so just an edgy brought side but should work especially on carriers with a slow turn rate.
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. I think as well that turrets have a “designed function” like almost all other weapons. They are good at that but reach their limits otherwise.
The OP tries a bit, as stated mostly out of aesthetic reasons, to stretch the boundaries of this weapons type. Sure it can be done but one is likely to run into the same limitations one would encounter when putting mines and omni beams in front weapon slots. It will work but other stuff will simply work better.
Yes, that is what I was trying to say.. you just did a much better job of saying it.
The thing is we have several different weapons, but we only work with one target. What is the point of having a light weapon with a good firing arc? As we use turrets now, in a standard escort setup, dual heavy fore, turrets aft, they add a little damage to your target. What is to point to fire a light weapon at a serious/main target? Hey, I am here, I am firing at you?
In a realistic setting, turrets, a complement weapon system, are there to fire at secundary targets. While you are firing at a main target, your turrets can cover other areas and protect you against incoming fighters, torps, mines, whatever. You cannot do it in this game. The closests thing is fighters that you can setup to attack subsidiary targets. My point, we have complementary weapons, but the game system does not allow us to us it proper.
If I could have a dual heavy cannon in the back, I would not hesitate a moment to slot it in stead of any lighter weapon. Marvelous to make straffing runs where you can hit a target hard and again when you fly over. Also great to punish someone who is on your tail.
So we should have two improvements, no more fore and aft weapons, just all weapons everywhere. Two, a subsidiary target system. A script that makes a weapon to fire only at certain targets or fires at your selected target, unless .... . Capito?
The thing is we have several different weapons, but we only work with one target. What is the point of having a light weapon with a good firing arc? As we use turrets now, in a standard escort setup, dual heavy fore, turrets aft, they add a little damage to your target. What is to point to fire a light weapon at a serious/main target? Hey, I am here, I am firing at you?
Well, turrets help when your target is faster or more maneuverable than you AND they provide a constant source of damage. If anything, they help keep enemy shields low so when you do finally swing around to line up for a full volley, the energy weapons will knock out the rest of the shields so the torps will get through and hit the hull.
In a realistic setting, turrets, a complement weapon system, are there to fire at secundary targets. While you are firing at a main target, your turrets can cover other areas and protect you against incoming fighters, torps, mines, whatever. You cannot do it in this game. The closests thing is fighters that you can setup to attack subsidiary targets. My point, we have complementary weapons, but the game system does not allow us to us it proper.
If I could have a dual heavy cannon in the back, I would not hesitate a moment to slot it in stead of any lighter weapon. Marvelous to make straffing runs where you can hit a target hard and again when you fly over. Also great to punish someone who is on your tail.
So we should have two improvements, no more fore and aft weapons, just all weapons everywhere. Two, a subsidiary target system. A script that makes a weapon to fire only at certain targets or fires at your selected target, unless .... . Capito?
Realistically, the weapons slots are almost all overly generous with firing capabilities.
If a turret, cannon, torpedo, or beam were realistically mounted to the ship, it should take your ship itself into account.
For example, if a turret is top mounted and you have a fighter below you, the turret should not be able to fire at it because it cannot fire through your ship to get to it. Yet it can.
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Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
I believe the word you are looking for is 'capish'.
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Realistically, the weapons slots are almost all overly generous with firing capabilities.
If a turret, cannon, torpedo, or beam were realistically mounted to the ship, it should take your ship itself into account.
For example, if a turret is top mounted and you have a fighter below you, the turret should not be able to fire at it because it cannot fire through your ship to get to it. Yet it can.
There's a lot to be said of STO's overall combat not really hitting the mark in replicating the feel of Star Trek, not to mention space combat. Weapons fire is far, far more spastic, and doesn't ever worry about up or down. Just forward and aft. In actual design of the ships, just because you're directly facing a target may not mean one of your fore arrays can even align to fire at it; STO combines up/down arrays into one generic array, even though there's technically way more.
A canon Galaxy would have up to 14 phaser arrays, a fore and aft torpedo launcher and even carry mines. That would be 17 weapon slots on a single ship in STO. The ships have that many not because they're firing them all off all the time; they have that many for coverage - it would be impossible to supply power to more than a couple at a time anyway.
And that's where turrets normally would come into play - they'd be great for eliminating minor threats at low energy cost, or acting as point defense against mines, torpedoes or probes. But the game doesn't work that way, so you have to rationalize behaviors for stuff like turrets or mines that go beyond the scope of canon. Which STO doesn't really attempt. Since the game is a little too focused on damage, and turrets (and mines to some extent) don't have to worry about delivering the damage reliably, not much thought goes into developing them. They just exist for contrarian builders and technically benefit from their big brother's hand me down consoles.
I'd also like to see mines develop more of an identity, but they have far more mechanical issues. Turrets are fun to use and pretty simple to design some small, innocuous content for.
> @seaofsorrows said: > tunebreaker wrote: » > > Anything that says it improves cannons improves turrets. Energy weapon, let alone all dmg buffs boosting turrets should be a no-brainer. I find it hard to believe that you see nothing falling into those categories you could use on your turret ships. > > > > > I know all of that. > > I was referring to anything specific to turrets like what the OP is requesting.
Anything boosting specifically turrets (not cannons in general, but just turrets) would be as silly as anything boosting single beams only, but not dual beams or perhaps not even omnis.
P.S. Ugh how I hate how mobile quoting works on those forums.
Anything boosting specifically turrets (not cannons in general, but just turrets) would be as silly as anything boosting single beams only, but not dual beams or perhaps not even omnis.
I have to admit.. when put like that, it's pretty hard to argue.
I'm now curious how many small aoe effect abilities/procs can be pumped into a turret build. Obviously there's kemocite laced weapons and distributed targeting for Boff slots. There are one or two ship traits that would serve, like the harasser mines one. And some of the energy types include an inherent splash. Somebody help me here, what else is there?
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Yeah as another posted, (near 100k+ with plasma explosion consoles)
I was flying with 1 plasma explosion console at the time. So was def not Plas-Ex Doping.
Wasn't using keybinds either, just conventional tray clicking.. And I still hit over 50k on numerous occasions.
Just didn't have the room on board for more PlasEx consoles. Because I was experimenting with using several 2 piece +Disruptor damage console sets.
Bio turret and console + Hydrodynamic tac console and uni console set.
*Oh and I guess it was actually 7 turrets and 1 single cannon; Elachi Crescent cannon + Crit Sev console set.
(Which all gave meager cat1 disruptor damage buffs. + some extra radiation from the hydrodynamic tac console for kemo).
So this build was in no way optimal or anywhere near 100% DPS efficiency (compared to loading up on Plasma explosion consoles).
That all said, I was still face rolling everything without any noticeable issues though, so not sure what the issue you have with them is... ? Perhaps its your piloting and not the gear/ship ?
Conversely, I had a Disruptor beam build (Nandi) at the time utilizing similar sets and (1) plasma explosion console which got up to 77k pre nerf.
So going from beams to turrets (+1 single cannon - Elachi Crescent) wasn't that severe of a drop in damage output all things considered. It was nowhere near the estimated 50% damage output reduction you suggest. Sorry.
I'll try to it out again though, just to see, and post my results. Haven't actually used it much since the space nerfs. But I'm sure it'll perform just fine, since it never made use of PlasEx doping to begin with. Nor OSS for that matter. Nandi cant use intel powers/abilities.
More relevant, a cannon/turret combo on a maneuverable ship can be just plain fun to fly; bonus points if you have... appropriate music cued up (a recent discovery in this vein is the soundtrack for House of the Dying Sun, which is legitimately available for the low, low price of free; you can't go too wrong with Homeworld or Ace Combat tuneage, either). Since I'd brought up tetryons, I would point out that they're a fairly cheap energy type to experiment in this vein with (credit to Timberwolf for the basis). Take the abovementioned set with the turret option; tack on piercing-tetryon dual cannons and turrets (you can replay 'Installation 18' for these); add the TPG consoles (replay 'Midnight' for these).
It's about how you fit your ship. Fit it right any weapon can be made to work.
I switched my regular polaron turrets for Vaadwaur polaron turrets, and although their DPS figure was slightly lower than the original turrets, the various other boosts delivered by the Vaadwaur, such as turn, or rapid, etc, meant that overall performance received an improvement, which made that ~10-15% loss of DPS a very acceptable tradeoff.
If someone's aim is only to boost their DPS output to better levels, then they're not really going to appreciate what something which doesn't further that goal, offers
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Took a Fleet Arbiter and put 8 Advanced Fleet Phaser Turrets (Dmgx3 CrtD) on it. Geared it with anything that boosted weapon/phaser damage and took it out for a bit.. I'll admit.. it did better then I thought.
Sure, the per shot damage is anemic compared to dual heavy cannons, dual beam banks, or even single beams.. but it does make up for it somewhat with volume and speed. I just chained Scatter Volley and never stopped firing.. it was actually pretty cool.
It's a very fun build, not 'optimal' but definitely viable. I just did a couple Red Alerts and a Battlezone, nothing too intensive, but it took things out at a pretty respectable pace. I suspect that it would get a significant boost if I upgraded the turrets to Mark XIV and added the Withering Barrage trait. Now I just need a Ship sale, and an Upgrade weekend and I'll probably try and see how much I can squeeze out of it.
Is it going to top DPS charts? Not even close.. but it's definitely viable and quite a bit of fun to play.
CRF looks neat too... Like a chaingun or something. Very satisfying.
My only real gripe with such builds, is that they're more geared towards taking down one target at a time, because scatter volley doesn't put a target on everything in the same way BFAW will hit everything within range, so a less effective build for Red Alerts than beams, simply due to the multiple targets. But, as Trevor Philips once observed, "it gets the job done..."
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
unless they nerf procs to be from per shot to per activation...
if they put in a function that'll let you auto follow a target within 10km... you dont even need to control your ship just tab to next target...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
That is incorrect. Procs have always been 'per cycle'. There was for a while a bug with Fire at Will that made it proc the per-cycle procs every shot, and a few procs that were changed to per-shot due to them massively overperforming with Fire at Will due to that bug. This bug was fixed. Outside of the topic of those abilities that were reverted to per-cycle when Fire at Will was fixed, turrets were completely unaffected by this bugfix, and the change to those few abilities were felt the same by every weapon type.
That's the appeal of it, yeah. And as mentioned throughout the thread... it is viable. But it would be nice to see some consoles or traits designed to help that kind of build out.
Unfortunately people have just been debating whether turrets are bad (they aren't) rather than gestating ideas on what they'd like to see. A problem with the culture on this forum, I think; it can be hard to discuss anything if anyone senses even the slightest hint of negativity, so nothing gets discussed.
They're fun but nonoptimal builds. I'd like to see them get something to flesh their identity out more.
Cannons are far less effective at distance than up close. When flying my BoP I don't drop cloak until 5km and I try to stay outside of 2km to avoid the warp core breach. Beams also suffer diminishing returns over greater distance, but with cannons you aren't firing when you point the wrong way, so you have to maximize your impact moreso than with beams.
A turret build with scatter volley might make a good weapon setup for a tank build if you use threat and torp spread or other AOE attacks to maintain aggro, (an accomplishment in itself!) With the Defiant trait and constant cycling between targets, I could see this build drawing fire from everything that's not getting hammered by the battlecruisers.
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LRTSs are pointless for a gutpuncher. Even in a cruiser I get up close and personal, so for me it makes sense to sacrifice those LTRS ranks in favor of more hull and shield capacity.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
Turrets are still fun, though... It is still nice to see a constant stream of fire going out to a target. Individually, the turrets do a small amount of damage, but using 8 of them and with keeping your weapon power level high, they still do good damage.
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To touch on that subject..
I honestly don't think they should be made any better. Why? Because if you went too far with improvements, they would easily make everything else obsolete. Why would anyone use Beams or Cannons if Turrets were on par power wise? They're fun to play yes, but they're also incredibly easy.. they don't take any real positioning to use. You just slap them on your ship, fly into the middle of a pack and start spraying everywhere. They don't take the skill and positioning that cannons take and with Scatter Volley they can be even easier against large packs then Fire At Will. The downside is that they aren't as effective.
The problem with Turrets is that if you boosted them from 'viable' to 'desirable' they would become the new meta overnight and everyone would use them. As it is, there is just starting to be some actual parity between Cannons and Beams, to come along and make Turrets far better then either would be counter productive to that cause.
I like the idea of the turret build, and it's fun to play.. but honestly, I don't think they can do all that much to make them more powerful. They're not even intended to be used as a full build, they're supposed to complement cannons. I honestly think they're about as good as they're going to get.
That's why you do so in the form of a console or trait that only procs under circumstances the developers consider to be safe. It doesn't even have to be damage-focused. Everyone playing STO just thinks in terms of damage.
It could be something as simple as a console that applies stacks of itself onto targets when using turrets, and when a max amount of stacks is reached, creates small gravity wells around them, rewarding people for grouping targets up with scatter volley.
Or a trait that causes Scatter Volley on turrets to no longer have the 45 degree restriction if they're within [x]km of your ship.
Or another console that peppers the areas turrets hit with small clouds of plasma that slows ships, when activated.
Basically, anything that gives turrets a little more identity. You just have to identify what turrets do that you want to exemplify and reward. It doesn't have to be damage focused. Not everything in the game needs to have a +15% energy damage bonus attached to it, or be yet another 2 minute recharge, 8 second duration damage buff. There's way too much of that in STO.
Some of those ideas sound pretty cool, and I am right on board with you.
While I would love to see something like this, my gut says that Cryptic has no real interest in pushing turret boat builds. I might be wrong, I'm basing that on nothing but my gut feeling, it just doesn't seem like all turrets was ever an option that Cryptic intended for players to use.
I'm basing this on nothing other then the fact that in all my years of playing this game, I have never seen anything implemented into this game that was designed to improve turret performance. Honestly, this fact alone makes me want to play one.. makes me feel like I'm rebelling against the system. lol
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
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I know all of that.
I was referring to anything specific to turrets like what the OP is requesting.
Sure you do and you covered it quite well in your posts. I think as well that turrets have a “designed function” like almost all other weapons. They are good at that but reach their limits otherwise.
The OP tries a bit, as stated mostly out of aesthetic reasons, to stretch the boundaries of this weapons type. Sure it can be done but one is likely to run into the same limitations one would encounter when putting mines and omni beams in front weapon slots. It will work but other stuff will simply work better.
What I would do here is give single cannons a shot for front and turrets in aft. I run with one single cannon on my DHC escorts and I’m often surprised how well it can compete with the other DHCs.
Single cannons have 180° arc so just an edgy brought side but should work especially on carriers with a slow turn rate.
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Yes, that is what I was trying to say.. you just did a much better job of saying it.
In a realistic setting, turrets, a complement weapon system, are there to fire at secundary targets. While you are firing at a main target, your turrets can cover other areas and protect you against incoming fighters, torps, mines, whatever. You cannot do it in this game. The closests thing is fighters that you can setup to attack subsidiary targets. My point, we have complementary weapons, but the game system does not allow us to us it proper.
If I could have a dual heavy cannon in the back, I would not hesitate a moment to slot it in stead of any lighter weapon. Marvelous to make straffing runs where you can hit a target hard and again when you fly over. Also great to punish someone who is on your tail.
So we should have two improvements, no more fore and aft weapons, just all weapons everywhere. Two, a subsidiary target system. A script that makes a weapon to fire only at certain targets or fires at your selected target, unless .... . Capito?
Well, turrets help when your target is faster or more maneuverable than you AND they provide a constant source of damage. If anything, they help keep enemy shields low so when you do finally swing around to line up for a full volley, the energy weapons will knock out the rest of the shields so the torps will get through and hit the hull.
Realistically, the weapons slots are almost all overly generous with firing capabilities.
If a turret, cannon, torpedo, or beam were realistically mounted to the ship, it should take your ship itself into account.
For example, if a turret is top mounted and you have a fighter below you, the turret should not be able to fire at it because it cannot fire through your ship to get to it. Yet it can.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
A canon Galaxy would have up to 14 phaser arrays, a fore and aft torpedo launcher and even carry mines. That would be 17 weapon slots on a single ship in STO. The ships have that many not because they're firing them all off all the time; they have that many for coverage - it would be impossible to supply power to more than a couple at a time anyway.
And that's where turrets normally would come into play - they'd be great for eliminating minor threats at low energy cost, or acting as point defense against mines, torpedoes or probes. But the game doesn't work that way, so you have to rationalize behaviors for stuff like turrets or mines that go beyond the scope of canon. Which STO doesn't really attempt. Since the game is a little too focused on damage, and turrets (and mines to some extent) don't have to worry about delivering the damage reliably, not much thought goes into developing them. They just exist for contrarian builders and technically benefit from their big brother's hand me down consoles.
I'd also like to see mines develop more of an identity, but they have far more mechanical issues. Turrets are fun to use and pretty simple to design some small, innocuous content for.
> tunebreaker wrote: »
>
> Anything that says it improves cannons improves turrets. Energy weapon, let alone all dmg buffs boosting turrets should be a no-brainer. I find it hard to believe that you see nothing falling into those categories you could use on your turret ships.
>
>
>
>
> I know all of that.
>
> I was referring to anything specific to turrets like what the OP is requesting.
Anything boosting specifically turrets (not cannons in general, but just turrets) would be as silly as anything boosting single beams only, but not dual beams or perhaps not even omnis.
P.S. Ugh how I hate how mobile quoting works on those forums.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I have to admit.. when put like that, it's pretty hard to argue.