Personally, I just want to be able to save and load my skill trees and/or have an ability to quickly switch to an off-spec.
Example: sometimes I want a character to switch from flying an escort to flying a cruiser... those fly pretty differently. It'd be great if I could change it quickly and easily. Heck, even if it costs a respec token it'd be worth it to have the option.
Other example: sometimes I find out I have one or two points I'd rather put somewhere else. It's honestly a pain to have to jot everything down and rebuild it all from scratch. Why can't I respec by just shuffling my points around?
I agree with the original poster. Respecs done for real money only is slimy business practice. It's because of the Asian MMO influence on the game. They are nickel and dime scumbags.
As a new player I have to say I was pretty pissed off when I finally discovered that you don't train across the board and only get 46 skill total. I vote for free tokens. I'm not paying to retrain.
As much as the game does need EC sinks, why should there be a cost at all? Or some overcomplicated once-a-month-unless-you-keep-it-for-100-hours-or-whatever restriction bog. Literally everything else about your build can be changed for free unlimited. Traits, ship traits, rep powers, specializations, boff abilities, boff specializations, doffs... Why is the skill tree the one thing in the entire game that that costs to reset?
There is no reason.
I think it's mainly a fan mentality of trying to bargain with devs they aren't talking to. A lot of people are like that. They believe the proposed change is so radical that, while it should happen, there's no way it would. As such, they try to present an argument they think the devs actually would take. Hence the people saying to keep the respec zen system, but reduce the price. It's nonsense imaginary bargaining.
The other side of people arguing for costs is that some people appreciate the solidarity of "this is me." That is, knowing a character is being defined as a tactician or engineer, etc. Being able to change that willy-nilly does remove some element of immersion. But to me, that's not worth ruining the foundation of your whole game.
But as originally stated, as a developer, you need to have ways to make money in your system. So, you have a robust system that encourages customers to interact with it in various ways, to encourage further purchases. View an economic model as a tree, with the C-Store items as leaves or limbs extended from other branches. "I'm going to try to make a torpedo build," a player says, as they wonder what C-Store ship to buy to realize that ambition. "Oh, that would require me to buy a token every time I want to switch builds," they realize, as they close the C-Store menu and spend zero dollars.
You don't put your price cap at the base of the tree, because then no one moves past it. That's why respecs in most modern games are free - developers have learned better and know how foolish that is. Cryptic is unfortunately still run by the monetization equivalent of cavemen, however. They're stuck 15 years in the past - as are many of STO's players.
The only real argument you could make for keeping it is that it forces players into making new characters to realize new builds, since Engineer, Science and Tactical careers aren't too distinct anymore. But even then, fully outfitting even one character can take a lifetime, so the ambition to experiment is always going to be placed on the primary character. In addition, forcing players into making dilithium mules reduces the amount of money Cryptic can make even more. It's simply not in their best interest, any way you look at it.
I could see an EC price getting attached to it, but only because there are so few EC drains. Probably no more costly than investing in a reputation, so about 5,000-20,000 EC. Otherwise, if it got into the hundred thousands or even millions, most players wouldn't use it outside of an emergency and you would end up with the same problem. But the best case scenario is to simply make it free - especially so new players who are sailing around at level 24 can feel like they can make a mistake in the skill tree without it haunting them for the rest of their lives. The needless, greedy aggression implied with a respec fee is "so 90s."
This has been discussed, a lot, and shot down over and over again. Frankly we are more likely to get the ability to use our other ships as a space away team, which was something they actually said they were looking into all the way back at season 6 or 7, than an ability to level a ship from T1 to endgame.
Think we'll ever get to level our characters beyond 60th? Or is that just another dead end also?
There have been multiple level caps in the history of STO, they don't just raise the level cap with every single expansion like many MMO's.
Back to the OP, yes...I think they should get rid of them...can use respecs as a bit of a EC sink...maybe start at 100-200k EC and each respec costs more but over time the cost reduces to lower levels. (Like other mmos do)
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Yes, they should go as a zen purchase. Any new build will likely require fleet gear and or rep gear and upgrades to at least m14 if not 14 epic - the zen cost on top is just too much. Maybe if they did an account unlock zen purchase of ec or fleet mark funded respecs, cryptic would be happy with something that sells and players would be encouraged to play more.
I have always felt that the captain re-train token handcuffed player build experimentation.
Every other MMO I have ever played allowed respec for simple in game currency, or for free. The purpose of respec is supposed to be to allow players to try different things and adapt their characters to their specific need.
I never understood why STO felt that this was something that should cost Zen. Yes, more experienced players know you can get Zen for Dilithium which means that technically respecs are available for in game currency but it's fairly expensive for the average player.
The system is designed to encourage people to maintain a gold membership while they level up, but it simply doesn't work. Players just consult a cookie cutter skills layout and follow that as they level up because trying something different is too expensive to risk. It's a highly flawed system.
I have always felt that the captain re-train token handcuffed player build experimentation.
Every other MMO I have ever played allowed respec for simple in game currency, or for free. The purpose of respec is supposed to be to allow players to try different things and adapt their characters to their specific need.
I never understood why STO felt that this was something that should cost Zen. Yes, more experienced players know you can get Zen for Dilithium which means that technically respecs are available for in game currency but it's fairly expensive for the average player.
The system is designed to encourage people to maintain a gold membership while they level up, but it simply doesn't work. Players just consult a cookie cutter skills layout and follow that as they level up because trying something different is too expensive to risk. It's a highly flawed system.
As I said elsewhere, I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both).
On the other hand, a big part of the rationale for all recent nerfs was precisely so ppl would try out various builds, and not be tied to one particular meta. And for that you really need to be able to respec more freely. So, even though I still think it should cost some, 500 Zen is just way too much if you want players to use true variety in their builds.
I have always felt that the captain re-train token handcuffed player build experimentation.
Every other MMO I have ever played allowed respec for simple in game currency, or for free. The purpose of respec is supposed to be to allow players to try different things and adapt their characters to their specific need.
I never understood why STO felt that this was something that should cost Zen. Yes, more experienced players know you can get Zen for Dilithium which means that technically respecs are available for in game currency but it's fairly expensive for the average player.
The system is designed to encourage people to maintain a gold membership while they level up, but it simply doesn't work. Players just consult a cookie cutter skills layout and follow that as they level up because trying something different is too expensive to risk. It's a highly flawed system.
As I said elsewhere, I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both).
On the other hand, a big part of the rationale for all recent nerfs was precisely so ppl would try out various builds, and not be tied to one particular meta. And for that you really need to be able to respec more freely. So, even though I still think it should cost some, 500 Zen is just way too much if you want players to use true variety in their builds.
That is why I said they should adopt a system like other MMO's...a scaling EC cost so they can't just respec willy nilly on a whim. Have the cost decay over time so it doesn't eventually cost like 50 million EC a respec unless you went insane and respeced a lot in a shot time.
If EC is to little then maybe dilithium?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I have always felt that the captain re-train token handcuffed player build experimentation.
Every other MMO I have ever played allowed respec for simple in game currency, or for free. The purpose of respec is supposed to be to allow players to try different things and adapt their characters to their specific need.
I never understood why STO felt that this was something that should cost Zen. Yes, more experienced players know you can get Zen for Dilithium which means that technically respecs are available for in game currency but it's fairly expensive for the average player.
The system is designed to encourage people to maintain a gold membership while they level up, but it simply doesn't work. Players just consult a cookie cutter skills layout and follow that as they level up because trying something different is too expensive to risk. It's a highly flawed system.
As I said elsewhere, I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both).
On the other hand, a big part of the rationale for all recent nerfs was precisely so ppl would try out various builds, and not be tied to one particular meta. And for that you really need to be able to respec more freely. So, even though I still think it should cost some, 500 Zen is just way too much if you want players to use true variety in their builds.
I agree with there being a cost, as long as that cost is not prohibitive of experimentation.
You're still limited by the constraints of your profession, so being that my main is a Tactical, I can't gain access to Science abilities like Photonic Fleet, etc. It's not like letting me respec will make it so I can do anything I want, it just allows me to try and achieve a better balance between what I need inside of my own profession. I believe they lowered the respec cost to 300 Zen, and I'm not sure what the current exchange rate is but I know that's a sizable chunk of resources just to move a few skill points around.
One problem is that it takes one token for any change at all. Rather you want to take 1 point out of something and put it in something else or totally rebalance your tree.. it's the same cost. For me, what this does is when I make a new character, I figure out their end game skill sheet ahead of time and I just follow that because I simply can't afford to make a mistake.
I would prefer to see respec done for an EC cost at a skill trainer. Barring that, the next best idea that's more economically friendly to Cryptic would be to have unbound respec tokens drop from lock boxes. Enough people open boxes that the tokens would probably be pretty affordable on the exchange. 300 Zen is too high in my opinion, people are just more likely to leave things as is then try and play with different setups knowing they have to pay again if they like the old layout better.
I have always felt that the captain re-train token handcuffed player build experimentation.
Every other MMO I have ever played allowed respec for simple in game currency, or for free. The purpose of respec is supposed to be to allow players to try different things and adapt their characters to their specific need.
I never understood why STO felt that this was something that should cost Zen. Yes, more experienced players know you can get Zen for Dilithium which means that technically respecs are available for in game currency but it's fairly expensive for the average player.
The system is designed to encourage people to maintain a gold membership while they level up, but it simply doesn't work. Players just consult a cookie cutter skills layout and follow that as they level up because trying something different is too expensive to risk. It's a highly flawed system.
As I said elsewhere, I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both).
On the other hand, a big part of the rationale for all recent nerfs was precisely so ppl would try out various builds, and not be tied to one particular meta. And for that you really need to be able to respec more freely. So, even though I still think it should cost some, 500 Zen is just way too much if you want players to use true variety in their builds.
Letting you be "trained in everything" and "never have to choose" is exactly what this game does, literally everywhere else. The respec cost is a relic. It belongs in a museum.
As I stated before, they should also change things to only having to commit when all is filled in for your Rank Level.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yes.. in my opinion remove from the game & allow retrains via Admiral Quinn which cost you 1 mil EC or maybe even 100k EC to do a reset.. On top of that i believe there should be 2 skill sets you can switch between - each with there own trait setups saved to them. Reason being is that you can have a character with a 2nd build to easily switch to. This would mean you will have the potential to fill more roles within the game much more appropriatly.. For example.. Tac Dps & Tac Tank builds.. or another example.. Tac PvE & Tac PvP builds.. It has many uses depending on the player as to what they want from their gaming experience.
At the end of the day you will always be a captain of your proffesion, Tac, Sci, Eng - So there will always be a reason to have multi ple characters per faction. Having the skill sets limited to this extreme only detracts from the game, it does not enhance upon it.
So theres my view on that, whether you agree on it or not, I hope it is at least food for thought.
Even if free, having to commit each point means that if you make a mistake at Point 40, for example, you have to start from 0 to fix it.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Respec tokens, rename tokens, they should be gone. Ship traits should all be reclaimable account wide too, as well as lockbox ships. It's just stupid to keep these restrictions in-game.
That is beyond the free part. That is certainly welcome but requires a change to how the system currently works. Making something to have no cost is one thing but programming is required to change the underlying system.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As I stated before, they should also change things to only having to commit when all is filled in for your Rank Level.
If respecs were free, there would be no reason having to commit anything. Each node could simply be toggled on and off individually just like traits.
I agree with this, in this game you're not locked to specific career/ship, you can put a sci captain in a tac ship and do well. Why not do the same for the skilltree? Let us have the choice.
That is beyond the free part. That is certainly welcome but requires a change to how the system currently works. Making something to have no cost is one thing but programming is required to change the underlying system.
So would building a system to allow filling the tree before commiting.
Too bad we can't get any numbers on this, because I don't believe these are a source of revenue at all.
Does anyone here buy these things? I know I sure don't. If I want to move a point or 2 around and I don't have one of these stupid tokens, I just leave it as is. One of the nice benefits of the fact that they're always nerf.. i mean..'balancing'.. things is that they frequently seem to give them away.
Who's going to pay $3 to respec their character? If I need to do it, I'm more likely to use Dilithium to buy Zen then actual money just to respec my character. Even then, 90k Dilithium isn't very expensive to most players, but it's still kind of steep for a respec.
I maintain that the current costs are prohibitive of experimentation and build diversity. People are more likely to follow a 'cookie cutter' template then they are to play around with the system and find what works best for them.
What do you propose to make up for the lost revenue from them?
We could do armor tokens to upgrade your gear from MK XII to MK XIII.
Arent those called "upgrade techs" ?
Yep, but there people already spending real money to get dilithium so they can upgrade their gear.
Well, there's always the Ultimate Tech Upgrades, that take a weapon from any rarity and level up to max. Although no guarantee on the resulting mods. They're currently in the special king ring C-Store itself, although they could be sold individually.
Even on my oldest captain, I only have one or two Epic level mk14s, just because of how obnoxious getting everything maxed out is. Possible, at least. I'd sooner spend a small amount of money on one of those than I would ever buy a retrain token.
Probably a worse sale item in the C-Store is the 'Bonus' Experience Token of whatever variety. Just not enough of a Bonus to justify that cost. We recently got a free 10k XP one for logging in three days in a row, it lasted less than three seconds when collecting on Admirity Missions.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
Example: sometimes I want a character to switch from flying an escort to flying a cruiser... those fly pretty differently. It'd be great if I could change it quickly and easily. Heck, even if it costs a respec token it'd be worth it to have the option.
Other example: sometimes I find out I have one or two points I'd rather put somewhere else. It's honestly a pain to have to jot everything down and rebuild it all from scratch. Why can't I respec by just shuffling my points around?
I think it's mainly a fan mentality of trying to bargain with devs they aren't talking to. A lot of people are like that. They believe the proposed change is so radical that, while it should happen, there's no way it would. As such, they try to present an argument they think the devs actually would take. Hence the people saying to keep the respec zen system, but reduce the price. It's nonsense imaginary bargaining.
The other side of people arguing for costs is that some people appreciate the solidarity of "this is me." That is, knowing a character is being defined as a tactician or engineer, etc. Being able to change that willy-nilly does remove some element of immersion. But to me, that's not worth ruining the foundation of your whole game.
But as originally stated, as a developer, you need to have ways to make money in your system. So, you have a robust system that encourages customers to interact with it in various ways, to encourage further purchases. View an economic model as a tree, with the C-Store items as leaves or limbs extended from other branches. "I'm going to try to make a torpedo build," a player says, as they wonder what C-Store ship to buy to realize that ambition. "Oh, that would require me to buy a token every time I want to switch builds," they realize, as they close the C-Store menu and spend zero dollars.
You don't put your price cap at the base of the tree, because then no one moves past it. That's why respecs in most modern games are free - developers have learned better and know how foolish that is. Cryptic is unfortunately still run by the monetization equivalent of cavemen, however. They're stuck 15 years in the past - as are many of STO's players.
The only real argument you could make for keeping it is that it forces players into making new characters to realize new builds, since Engineer, Science and Tactical careers aren't too distinct anymore. But even then, fully outfitting even one character can take a lifetime, so the ambition to experiment is always going to be placed on the primary character. In addition, forcing players into making dilithium mules reduces the amount of money Cryptic can make even more. It's simply not in their best interest, any way you look at it.
I could see an EC price getting attached to it, but only because there are so few EC drains. Probably no more costly than investing in a reputation, so about 5,000-20,000 EC. Otherwise, if it got into the hundred thousands or even millions, most players wouldn't use it outside of an emergency and you would end up with the same problem. But the best case scenario is to simply make it free - especially so new players who are sailing around at level 24 can feel like they can make a mistake in the skill tree without it haunting them for the rest of their lives. The needless, greedy aggression implied with a respec fee is "so 90s."
There have been multiple level caps in the history of STO, they don't just raise the level cap with every single expansion like many MMO's.
Back to the OP, yes...I think they should get rid of them...can use respecs as a bit of a EC sink...maybe start at 100-200k EC and each respec costs more but over time the cost reduces to lower levels. (Like other mmos do)
Every other MMO I have ever played allowed respec for simple in game currency, or for free. The purpose of respec is supposed to be to allow players to try different things and adapt their characters to their specific need.
I never understood why STO felt that this was something that should cost Zen. Yes, more experienced players know you can get Zen for Dilithium which means that technically respecs are available for in game currency but it's fairly expensive for the average player.
The system is designed to encourage people to maintain a gold membership while they level up, but it simply doesn't work. Players just consult a cookie cutter skills layout and follow that as they level up because trying something different is too expensive to risk. It's a highly flawed system.
As I said elsewhere, I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both).
On the other hand, a big part of the rationale for all recent nerfs was precisely so ppl would try out various builds, and not be tied to one particular meta. And for that you really need to be able to respec more freely. So, even though I still think it should cost some, 500 Zen is just way too much if you want players to use true variety in their builds.
That is why I said they should adopt a system like other MMO's...a scaling EC cost so they can't just respec willy nilly on a whim. Have the cost decay over time so it doesn't eventually cost like 50 million EC a respec unless you went insane and respeced a lot in a shot time.
If EC is to little then maybe dilithium?
I agree with there being a cost, as long as that cost is not prohibitive of experimentation.
You're still limited by the constraints of your profession, so being that my main is a Tactical, I can't gain access to Science abilities like Photonic Fleet, etc. It's not like letting me respec will make it so I can do anything I want, it just allows me to try and achieve a better balance between what I need inside of my own profession. I believe they lowered the respec cost to 300 Zen, and I'm not sure what the current exchange rate is but I know that's a sizable chunk of resources just to move a few skill points around.
One problem is that it takes one token for any change at all. Rather you want to take 1 point out of something and put it in something else or totally rebalance your tree.. it's the same cost. For me, what this does is when I make a new character, I figure out their end game skill sheet ahead of time and I just follow that because I simply can't afford to make a mistake.
I would prefer to see respec done for an EC cost at a skill trainer. Barring that, the next best idea that's more economically friendly to Cryptic would be to have unbound respec tokens drop from lock boxes. Enough people open boxes that the tokens would probably be pretty affordable on the exchange. 300 Zen is too high in my opinion, people are just more likely to leave things as is then try and play with different setups knowing they have to pay again if they like the old layout better.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
At the end of the day you will always be a captain of your proffesion, Tac, Sci, Eng - So there will always be a reason to have multi ple characters per faction. Having the skill sets limited to this extreme only detracts from the game, it does not enhance upon it.
So theres my view on that, whether you agree on it or not, I hope it is at least food for thought.
Live Long & Stay Sunny..
Nahdia@sundownyo
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
We could do armor tokens to upgrade your gear from MK XII to MK XIII.
Yep, but there people already spending real money to get dilithium so they can upgrade their gear.
Too bad we can't get any numbers on this, because I don't believe these are a source of revenue at all.
Does anyone here buy these things? I know I sure don't. If I want to move a point or 2 around and I don't have one of these stupid tokens, I just leave it as is. One of the nice benefits of the fact that they're always nerf.. i mean..'balancing'.. things is that they frequently seem to give them away.
Who's going to pay $3 to respec their character? If I need to do it, I'm more likely to use Dilithium to buy Zen then actual money just to respec my character. Even then, 90k Dilithium isn't very expensive to most players, but it's still kind of steep for a respec.
I maintain that the current costs are prohibitive of experimentation and build diversity. People are more likely to follow a 'cookie cutter' template then they are to play around with the system and find what works best for them.
Well, there's always the Ultimate Tech Upgrades, that take a weapon from any rarity and level up to max. Although no guarantee on the resulting mods. They're currently in the special king ring C-Store itself, although they could be sold individually.
Even on my oldest captain, I only have one or two Epic level mk14s, just because of how obnoxious getting everything maxed out is. Possible, at least. I'd sooner spend a small amount of money on one of those than I would ever buy a retrain token.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
True, but there are some people who use cash to get dilithium in the game.