What do you propose to make up for the lost revenue from them?
I actually think they will gain from other revenue sources by sacrificing this one. I for example passed on a lot of ships because I am heavily invested on science and torpedoes for my skill tree. The same goes for lockbox items and traits.
If not make retrains cost EC instead of Zen, then at least add skill loadouts we can purchase.
I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both). That would probably, indeed, provide some extra revenue for Cryptic, as it would lower the threshold on trying on something else; but it would also simply, effectively, nullify the skill system.
They got rid of the cost from the tailor, they need to remove the cost of the retrain. It's similar. Plus as the OP stated; if they change something in the trees, there's a huge firestorm from players who had to PAY, theoretically, to get the skills configured how they want them. Unless they are making a killing on retrain tokens, I would think the loss of revenue would be worth the less outrage and the ability to tweak the skills whenever they want to.
What do you propose to make up for the lost revenue from them?
I actually think they will gain from other revenue sources by sacrificing this one. I for example passed on a lot of ships because I am heavily invested on science and torpedoes for my skill tree. The same goes for lockbox items and traits.
If not make retrains cost EC instead of Zen, then at least add skill loadouts we can purchase.
I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both). That would probably, indeed, provide some extra revenue for Cryptic, as it would lower the threshold on trying on something else; but it would also simply, effectively, nullify the skill system.
agree on this, but it should be at least 2 tokens, like a two token pack or something at the same price, replacing the former ones, as two is quite enough to settle on your skill tree (honestly, i have so many chars that i tried almos every combination, so i know what i want, and one is enough, but thats me)
They got rid of the cost from the tailor, they need to remove the cost of the retrain. It's similar. Plus as the OP stated; if they change something in the trees, there's a huge firestorm from players who had to PAY, theoretically, to get the skills configured how they want them.
Untrue. Far as I remember, Cryptic has always supplied a free respec token upon changes to the skill tree. So there would be no 'huge firestorm', despite the constant negative player covfefe.
They got rid of the cost from the tailor, they need to remove the cost of the retrain. It's similar. Plus as the OP stated; if they change something in the trees, there's a huge firestorm from players who had to PAY, theoretically, to get the skills configured how they want them.
Untrue. Far as I remember, Cryptic has always supplied a free respec token upon changes to the skill tree. So there would be no 'huge firestorm', despite the constant negative player covfefe.
Yes 'a' free respec token. You don't think that caused stress to the player base? You get 1 chance to get it right or you gotta pay. (If you forget Tribble is there to do it over and over and over... )
Stress? We need to have Quinn, J'mpok, and D'Tan designate some system as a 'safe space' for our stressed Captains.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
They got rid of the cost from the tailor, they need to remove the cost of the retrain. It's similar. Plus as the OP stated; if they change something in the trees, there's a huge firestorm from players who had to PAY, theoretically, to get the skills configured how they want them.
Untrue. Far as I remember, Cryptic has always supplied a free respec token upon changes to the skill tree. So there would be no 'huge firestorm', despite the constant negative player covfefe.
Yes 'a' free respec token. You don't think that caused stress to the player base? You get 1 chance to get it right or you gotta pay. (If you forget Tribble is there to do it over and over and over... )
'1 chance to get it right or you gotta pay' is something I addressed earlier (re a single 'Submit' button); but the issue of possibly making a mistake simply exists, regardless. I was merely saying here, that changes to the skill tree would not really cause player outrage (in terms of having to buy new tokens), as they'd get one for free, as per usual.
Why do I get the feeling that some posters didn't even read the entire opening post? The OP isn't asking for complete removal of respecs, just the tokens.
Anyway, it's a bad idea. Experimenting should be made easier, but there also needs to be some reason to think through how you want to spec your character. If you can just change it for free every few days, there's little reason to have, say, dedicated exotic or drain characters for example.
What do you propose to make up for the lost revenue from them?
how would you compensate lifetime subscribers? Only a minor issue, but after forum titles were taken away and never re-implemented (which is still listed on here btw http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7009153 - has no one at Cryptic/ PWE bothered to actually check their product description? It wouldn't surprise me if there's an important legal liability here) I'd hate to see another subscriber perk being taken away.
As a 1000 day vet, I would happily give up the free tokens. The way the system is now means one thing. You want to experiment with your build pay us.
This forces people to go with one build, does not encourage experimentation, and if people go with one build cuts down on the sales of items, Bank slots, Inventory slots, ship loadouts, doff slots, etc.
I know someone will ask how will that cut down on the sales of those things?
Answer if people are just using one build cause of the way there skills are they only need slots to store those items. If people could change there skills when they want without paying or just paying EC. More people would change there skills more often requiring more slots to store the equipment, doffs for the build the loadouts etc.
I know I would definatly experiment with different things. Instead I stick to the DPS Meta for most of my toons.
As for the reason to chose sci tac or eng, That could be addressed by making the classes more distinct. Say if you have an Eng toon he has full access to the Engineer tree, but only half access to the Sci and Tac trees. Which is something I think should be done anyway. As it is a bit off that an Engineer could have the Tactical Ultimate.
Obviously they should. Just like they removed paid respecs on on traits. Respecs should be free. The cost reduces the skill tree to something you copy off the web once per character and then forget about.
They wouldn't lose any revenue either. I certainly have never considered paying for a respec (in fact, never even used the free respecs, except when I've got the "skills invalid" -issue). They can sell people more inventory upgrades or something that people actually want, instead.
Respeccing is more cumbersome than getting the funds for the respec as it seems to me. I am talking about a slight change you have to make for which you have to redistribute all spec points, the traits, what is it named, that come with it. It may be possible that your ground and space traits also have to be selected again.
Now this post made me wonder about some things. Yes, the OP makes a good and well argumented statement. Making it easier to tinker with the 'inside' of the character is alot of fun. However, when I look at myself, I have to made a confession. I spec all my characters the same and it is a well arround, jack-of-all set up. After that I am ready to go and never look back at my spec. Why? because I want each character to perform well in any ship with any set up. No go figure, with tha idea at its basis, you never end up with something that will get at the top of the DPS chart.
The next thing, after free respecs, players probably want to safe their trees and be able to load them quickly. So what is the point of having spec trees in general? To have a general build that can perform in all aspect of the game, specialiced builds that shine in certain aspects, or a one-trick-pony for each mission? It is the same with classes. We have different classes, but each class has to be played through the same game content and has to perform more or less the same. If not, nobody will play the class that slacks.
In some recent interviews, it's been stated that the developers want players to access the skill tree more often. You know what? I'd like to, as well. I remember playing Guild Wars 1 and rerolling my attributes and entire skillbar every few days, just to try new things. Great game due to its freedom and horizontal progression. STO could learn a lot from it.
Unfortunately, we can't freely explore the skill tree. The only culprit: retrain tokens. This is an archaic MMO mechanic meant to nickle and dime players every time they want to try something new, or just to do so when they accidentally double clicked the wrong skill. It doesn't matter how many free retrains are thrown the players' way; they will always be a limited resource, meaning you're punished for not heavily researching your build beforehand. Experimentation is not allowed, and funneling players into a security net of overall meta sameness occurs as a result. It also necessitates giving players another free token any time there's a change at all to the skill tree.
Normally I'd present something like this as a "What's your opinion" topic. But I'll take a safe, hard stance on this and say this system needs to be removed from the game, entirely and forever. I understand the desire to monetize where you can, but the skill tree is the core to every build. And the fact that players cannot change this easily (hear me out on this Cryptic) also means that players cannot begin the process of trying new builds and ships. If they could, that leads to a much wider issue for the player to complete their build, which leads to more monetization opportunities as the amount of gear they foresee themselves requiring widens. Not fewer. You're actually costing yourself money by retaining this outdated mechanic, in addition to defeating your own internal goals, along with outright attacking every player's experience with your system.
Give the player more of a chance to explore every aspect of your system, and it will lead to a wider variety of potential paths - both gameplay and monetized - for both parties.
No they should not get rid of retraining tokens as the idea is to get people to each spec a character that either plays to the strengths or limits their weaknesses. Now having said that the smart method is to TRY to keep most skills in any TREE at any RANK to no more than 2 of 3 points unless it's of your KEY strengths. You're far better to limit all skills to 2 of 3 points in any TREE then simply further top up using consoles, equipment or devices on the officer or ship.
Simply because the higher you go the less points it each further TIER provides to the overall skill. 1 point gives +50, 2 points gives +85, and 3 points only gives +100 for example.
Having said that also realize CRYPTIC also already reduced the COST of retraining TOKENS from previously 600 ZEN down to 300 ZEN which was a reduction of 50% so in the event you wanted to change you could much easier RESPEC your character. This was very fair move on their part. If you're simply looking to TRY different skill options prior to buying a RESPEC then copy your character to the TEST environment where you can RESPEC away until you find something you like before purchasing it on HOLODECK.
why not do a slight ui change, where you would distribute the skills that way you want but they would not take effect until you select "Confirm Changes" at the bottom of the screen, this way if you accidentally select a wrong skill (before confirming) you can select it again to remove the point to place it somewhere else, thereby avoiding having to use another token (unless it's a skills invalid issue).
Draal - FED, Saurian, LV60 - TAC
Mirak - FED 23c, Vulkan, LV60 - TAC
Ascaran Bloodclaw - KDF, Gorn, Lv18 - TAC
Melchiah - KDF, Gorn, LV60 - TAC
Ne'roon - KDF,Lethian, L60, TAC
Turel - ROM-KDF, Reman, 30, TAC
Elric - ROM-Fed, Romulan, L60, TAC
Richtor Belmont - FED 23c, Human,LV20, SCI
G'Kar - KDF, Gorn, L10
USS Sharlin NCC79713 B (part of sheridans access code) - T6, Hestia Class Advanced Escort
USS Babylon IV - T6 Krenim Science Vessel
USS Brakiri - T6 Elachi Escort
"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star."
"We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light."
You mean like they used to do it with the Skills? Confirm at the end only.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I would almost prefer to have the Skill/spec trees as a separate ui from the player profile like it is now. That way I could look and see how the changes or different talent/skill choices affect my stats before I confirm my choice. Even though you have outside sites, and such to do this, it is just more hassle to have to rely on a outside site for such things than the in-game Ui.
Consider this:
Do you want to fly a torpedo ship today? Maybe an exotic dmg build? How about a cannon raider? Buying new ships is discouraged because you have the added cost of retrain tokens if you fancy effectively flying them. The 31st cen bundle comes to mind. 1 beam cruiser, 1 torpedo/cannon raider, 1 sci-torp ship. You want to try all? Cough up 900 more zen.
Remove the tokens and people will start buying more ships (which means more c-store ships and more lockbox keys sold) because they will not be limited to 1 buildtype and forced to drydock the rest of their armada.
Still want to make them pay? Thats valid, make the tokens cost buttloads of EC (or dil, but please not dil, please...).
I have to agree with the OP. I'm not fond of such archic mechanics.... I would rather the cost becomes an EC sink, starting at say 500,000 then progressing to 2,000,000 if one changes more than once a a week maybe or the cost goes up if the player did not keep the build for say 100 hours of game-time. A way to sort of guarantee the player actually tested the build to some degree..
Post edited by aspartan1 on
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
As much as the game does need EC sinks, why should there be a cost at all? Or some overcomplicated once-a-month-unless-you-keep-it-for-100-hours-or-whatever restriction bog. Literally everything else about your build can be changed for free unlimited. Traits, ship traits, rep powers, specializations, boff abilities, boff specializations, doffs... Why is the skill tree the one thing in the entire game that that costs to reset?
Might sound weird, but what about a monthly purchase that gives you free-unlimited respecs for 30 days. I could see this being quite desirable to many even if the cost is quite steep such as during these last two large revamps, giving the player the ability to test an experiment with builds, but for those times you need to just alter your build abit you can purchase the single respec.
[..]
I'm pretty sure you mean archaic not anarchistic, you might want to look that one up. Your wrong by the way, go take a look at some other MMOs.
You are correct.... fingers moved eyes glazed over the words.... Nonetheless, just because other MMOs have a fee with something does not mean it is not an antiquated mechanic. Just sayin'...
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
The times I've retrained have been when cryptic have wiped my skills, so any of the free retrain tokens from LTS are probably gone.
If you take a bit of time to figure out the build beforehand there's not much need to retrain.
Swapping them over to become an EC sink would be a very good idea, way better than simply making them free, there has to be some barrier to simply swapping skills about every other mission.
And if they wanted to monetize skills still then why not have a character loadout token that lets you buy a second spec slot for zen.
And +10000000000 to the request to bring back the ability to fill out a spec from top to bottom and only confirm once. On the rare times I have had to redo skills since they ditched that it seems like kurland infested the system.... skill here, skill here, skill here.
I could deal with it being reduced to a Energy credit sink, or dil cost sink for retaining. Though I would not mind being able to buy additional tree load-outs that you could switch between on the fly.
Set the retrain tokens to a 15000 dil and 250 of each marks (from Omega Marks to Competitive marks - 250 from all reputations). It's a costfull respec, it's approachable and it pushes you into playing varied content to get it. (250 marks from all of the reputations take some time to have and require you to play varied content)
And still have the C store option viable to sell them for 250 zen for the zen players.
With both of these, Zen payers get it faster, F2P or hardcore players find it more approachable and everyone can experiment, while all of the queues will have more clients and overall... Cryptic wins, community wins. Fun wins!
Most players find a single build to commit to, lock it down and just work around it, then never use the skill tree ever again, unless they absolutely have to.
This is basically me. Cryptic's answer is just make another alt if you want to commit to something else, but there's only so many times I can do that before I get bored of grinding again. At that point, I find my time better spent playing something else. I would likely spend more time looking at my KDF and Rom alts and buying more of their ships (instead of just staying with the handful I already own) if what you proposed actually happened.
I don't have any faith that it will happen though.
Comments
I think respecs should cost you, at all times. Why? Because otherwise it's like you never have to choose. So, even buying loadouts would run counter to making choices: you'd pay a one-time fee for a few loadouts, and then, de facto, you are trained in everything (not that you'd have all skills available at once, but you'd be no longer forced to choose between, say, Tact and Science, as your loadouts would allow you to do both). That would probably, indeed, provide some extra revenue for Cryptic, as it would lower the threshold on trying on something else; but it would also simply, effectively, nullify the skill system.
Yup, I set my main too as the most bland 'cover-all-bases' setup when it changed last time. And not looked at it since.
agree on this, but it should be at least 2 tokens, like a two token pack or something at the same price, replacing the former ones, as two is quite enough to settle on your skill tree (honestly, i have so many chars that i tried almos every combination, so i know what i want, and one is enough, but thats me)
Untrue. Far as I remember, Cryptic has always supplied a free respec token upon changes to the skill tree. So there would be no 'huge firestorm', despite the constant negative player covfefe.
Yes 'a' free respec token. You don't think that caused stress to the player base? You get 1 chance to get it right or you gotta pay. (If you forget Tribble is there to do it over and over and over... )
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
'1 chance to get it right or you gotta pay' is something I addressed earlier (re a single 'Submit' button); but the issue of possibly making a mistake simply exists, regardless. I was merely saying here, that changes to the skill tree would not really cause player outrage (in terms of having to buy new tokens), as they'd get one for free, as per usual.
Anyway, it's a bad idea. Experimenting should be made easier, but there also needs to be some reason to think through how you want to spec your character. If you can just change it for free every few days, there's little reason to have, say, dedicated exotic or drain characters for example.
And besides this
how would you compensate lifetime subscribers? Only a minor issue, but after forum titles were taken away and never re-implemented (which is still listed on here btw http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7009153 - has no one at Cryptic/ PWE bothered to actually check their product description? It wouldn't surprise me if there's an important legal liability here) I'd hate to see another subscriber perk being taken away.
This forces people to go with one build, does not encourage experimentation, and if people go with one build cuts down on the sales of items, Bank slots, Inventory slots, ship loadouts, doff slots, etc.
I know someone will ask how will that cut down on the sales of those things?
Answer if people are just using one build cause of the way there skills are they only need slots to store those items. If people could change there skills when they want without paying or just paying EC. More people would change there skills more often requiring more slots to store the equipment, doffs for the build the loadouts etc.
I know I would definatly experiment with different things. Instead I stick to the DPS Meta for most of my toons.
As for the reason to chose sci tac or eng, That could be addressed by making the classes more distinct. Say if you have an Eng toon he has full access to the Engineer tree, but only half access to the Sci and Tac trees. Which is something I think should be done anyway. As it is a bit off that an Engineer could have the Tactical Ultimate.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
They wouldn't lose any revenue either. I certainly have never considered paying for a respec (in fact, never even used the free respecs, except when I've got the "skills invalid" -issue). They can sell people more inventory upgrades or something that people actually want, instead.
Now this post made me wonder about some things. Yes, the OP makes a good and well argumented statement. Making it easier to tinker with the 'inside' of the character is alot of fun. However, when I look at myself, I have to made a confession. I spec all my characters the same and it is a well arround, jack-of-all set up. After that I am ready to go and never look back at my spec. Why? because I want each character to perform well in any ship with any set up. No go figure, with tha idea at its basis, you never end up with something that will get at the top of the DPS chart.
The next thing, after free respecs, players probably want to safe their trees and be able to load them quickly. So what is the point of having spec trees in general? To have a general build that can perform in all aspect of the game, specialiced builds that shine in certain aspects, or a one-trick-pony for each mission? It is the same with classes. We have different classes, but each class has to be played through the same game content and has to perform more or less the same. If not, nobody will play the class that slacks.
No they should not get rid of retraining tokens as the idea is to get people to each spec a character that either plays to the strengths or limits their weaknesses. Now having said that the smart method is to TRY to keep most skills in any TREE at any RANK to no more than 2 of 3 points unless it's of your KEY strengths. You're far better to limit all skills to 2 of 3 points in any TREE then simply further top up using consoles, equipment or devices on the officer or ship.
Simply because the higher you go the less points it each further TIER provides to the overall skill. 1 point gives +50, 2 points gives +85, and 3 points only gives +100 for example.
Having said that also realize CRYPTIC also already reduced the COST of retraining TOKENS from previously 600 ZEN down to 300 ZEN which was a reduction of 50% so in the event you wanted to change you could much easier RESPEC your character. This was very fair move on their part. If you're simply looking to TRY different skill options prior to buying a RESPEC then copy your character to the TEST environment where you can RESPEC away until you find something you like before purchasing it on HOLODECK.
HELL, SMEGGING NO!
USS Sharlin NCC79713 B (part of sheridans access code) - T6, Hestia Class Advanced Escort
USS Babylon IV - T6 Krenim Science Vessel
USS Brakiri - T6 Elachi Escort
"We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light."
– Grey Council greeting
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Do you want to fly a torpedo ship today? Maybe an exotic dmg build? How about a cannon raider? Buying new ships is discouraged because you have the added cost of retrain tokens if you fancy effectively flying them. The 31st cen bundle comes to mind. 1 beam cruiser, 1 torpedo/cannon raider, 1 sci-torp ship. You want to try all? Cough up 900 more zen.
Remove the tokens and people will start buying more ships (which means more c-store ships and more lockbox keys sold) because they will not be limited to 1 buildtype and forced to drydock the rest of their armada.
Still want to make them pay? Thats valid, make the tokens cost buttloads of EC (or dil, but please not dil, please...).
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ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
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There is no reason.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
If you take a bit of time to figure out the build beforehand there's not much need to retrain.
Swapping them over to become an EC sink would be a very good idea, way better than simply making them free, there has to be some barrier to simply swapping skills about every other mission.
And if they wanted to monetize skills still then why not have a character loadout token that lets you buy a second spec slot for zen.
And +10000000000 to the request to bring back the ability to fill out a spec from top to bottom and only confirm once. On the rare times I have had to redo skills since they ditched that it seems like kurland infested the system.... skill here, skill here, skill here.
Yep they do that in Neverwinter so why not STO?
And still have the C store option viable to sell them for 250 zen for the zen players.
With both of these, Zen payers get it faster, F2P or hardcore players find it more approachable and everyone can experiment, while all of the queues will have more clients and overall... Cryptic wins, community wins. Fun wins!
After thinking about it for a while, you honestly nailed it down for me.
This is basically me. Cryptic's answer is just make another alt if you want to commit to something else, but there's only so many times I can do that before I get bored of grinding again. At that point, I find my time better spent playing something else. I would likely spend more time looking at my KDF and Rom alts and buying more of their ships (instead of just staying with the handful I already own) if what you proposed actually happened.
I don't have any faith that it will happen though.