Many of you know that speed is a bit of an issue in PvP.
I just did a test with a pilot escort on Tribble. I stacked 121 engine power, EPS Power Transfer, Emergency Power to Engines 3, Evasive Maneuvers, an a Deuterium Burn, at an Impulse Expertise of just 70, with the new Competitive Reputation Space Set's engine bonus of +350% for activating a firing mode, and got to a flight speed of 495.
That is roughly 15 km/s. And this was just a quickly improvised test. I am sure we could get that number higher by minmaxing the excrement out of it.
Granted, that was just a short burst of speed. I can keep her constantly at 130 (roughly 4 km/s), though.
But the game's Universal Weapon Range is only 10 km!
At the start of the game, lieutenant level with a standard issue engine in a Miranda class frigate at 50 engines power, your flight speed is 12.5 (just under 0.4 km/s), with the ability to go to a short burst of 35 (just above 1km/s).
So the game's range to speed ratio goes from 25 almost down to 2.5, with "range" to "burst speed" ratio going from 10 to 0,67. Why is that ratio relevant? Because that ratio is the time in seconds that you have to react to an opponent who is close to you before he's out of range. If that opponent is at the edge of your firing range, double that time, but then halve it again if you are both approaching each other - you can of course think of all kinds of things to do with such ratios, like flying parallel and suddenly change course, etc, but the point is:
You need damn fast reflexes to work with such speeds in space combat!
In effect, these range-to-speed ratios are turning the game from a spaceship command game (captains in their 30s to 50s giving verbal orders to their crews) into a space fighter game (pilots in their 20s using the control stick of an airplane-like craft).
I am not in my 20s (and haven't been for quite some time). I know that most players I regularly interact with here on the forums and in the game aren't in their 20s either. Which makes sense, given that this is a game about TV shows that were made 20 to 50 years ago. I know I just can't keep up with that kind of reaction speed. Maybe I once could, but not these days. Human biology science isn't advanced enough for that yet. And even if I could keep up with it - would I choose a Star Trek game to emulate such types of combat, or wouldn't that be better placed in a space fighter game about small agile craft?
Now, you may believe that there should be a place for such fast ships in this game. That's okay, I am fine with that. But given the likely player demograpics, then it should be worth considering to at least put the range-to-speed ratio closer to the one that the game was originally designed for. In other words, then the range of the weapons should be increased. And if anyone would want to do that, the range increase would have to be to about 150 km (!) for ships that really want it, if you want to keep closer to the original design parameters of the game. Even if you shrug off the extremely stacked bursts of speed and limit yourself to base speed, you'd have to increase the range to at least 40 km (unless cycling two copies of EPTE3 is a burst for you).
Maybe it would be easier to, well... apply diminishing returns to speed increases? After all,
e=1/2m^v²...
Or does a significant paying portion of the player base want to play a game were 0,67 seconds is considered an acceptable required reaction time,
including latency?
If so, I'd like to know.
Comments
Also, there is the issue of ships simply outrunning torps. IIRC, nothing in canon supports this (no ship can outrun torpedoes).
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Sounds like you practice the Picard Maneuver.
First of all reflexes - if you have the reflexes, why should you be constrained in not using them? Would you tell a fighter pilot to react slowly so they can be hit by enemy surface to air missiles? Of course not - if they have the reflexes to avoid danger, they will - same as in sto (on a second point... there are instances in star trek where torpedos have been outrun, so that point is moot)
Now for the big elephant in the room you have not noticed (or avoided a it does not fit the story you present) - Speed lowers potential damage.
Why you ask? Think about it logically - 5 fore weapons each take x seconds to fire, each in sequence before heading to the aft weapon sequence
If you are going too fast then, you cannot complete a full firing cycle of your fore weapons before passing onto the rear arc (where rears can fire but not fores) - ie, lowered damage potential. Contrary to common, misinformed belief, unless you really buff an attack, two; possibly three fore weapon discharges are not going to perform the archetypal 'vape' - but if they buffed to that extent and went slower, you'd still die but now they'd be able to fire every weapon instead!
As to the power of speed tanking..well, yet again sto has you covered - there are a plethora of ways to defeat a speed demon
1. Drain engine power - easy enough to do - polaron, energy siphon, neutronic, target subsystems amonst others - Lower engine power equals slower speeds
2. Disable engines - Again, another option
3. Spread torpedos - The bane of my time in kerrat, spreads have 100% accuracy and no matter how far you run (I did an experiment in the past doing a 2.3k impulse run from a friend firing spreads) THEY WILL HIT
4. Subnukes - kill the buffs, speed slows to a stop
5. [Snare] proc weapons - 5% speed reduction seems weak on a slow dread but 5% on a speed demon? its like draining a chunk of engine power
6. Chroniton weapons - Yet more slow down
7. Proper use of control powers - sure apo, polarise hull can negate control powers but ever noticed how long the lull between uses are? or insead of trying to stop them, do something crazy, like, say... use tbr and when close, fire off a photonic shockwave
8. Use your evasive and run away - if you stick around, you will get slaughtered so run
9. If you see them coming, use your own speed to raise the distance between their firing point and you - If you reverse while using evasive, you can drastically reduce the damage you will take due to damage falloff
Speed is fine - it has its pros, its cons... and more importantly - a plethora of ways to counter it.
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Maybe, maybe not... its better to act than to do nothing (also, falloff happens regardless, the lr targetting skill merely increases the range where falloff occurs, so packpedalling can serve a purpose)
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I prefer pve, but I've done enough of both to know the pros and cons
for example, that tbr/shockwave combo is from pvp - either repulsing them or damaging and if they got close, if the repulsion wouldn't affect them, the disable and damage of the shockwave would
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Bonus stealth for going faster.....lol.
Currently most escorts have a speed modifier between .20-.24 so depending on which escort you use will kind of limit right out of the gate the kind of speeds you can achieve for normal game play.
On my Pilot ships (which have a mod of .24) I use the Omega engines (they are one of the fastest in the game) Helmsman trait, Advanced Engines trait and thrill-seeker trait. EPTE2 which puts me up to 130 engine power. and a2damp with only about 22 aux power (The more aux power you have the better speed bonus you get). I can run about 193 constant as with the appropriate cool downs you can have EPTE and a2damp hit global so they will always be running. Since its a pilot ship i can have Pilot team 1 as well which puts me up to about 209. (This number could go higher if I had more Aux power for a2damp)
I have Omega, Evasive, and Clean getaway as well, with the various Cool down reductions available you can constantly cycle those 3 skill. When i say cycle you would Run Omega, once omega ends you would run Evasive, when Evasive ends you would run clean get away, when it ends you start over with omega. The order doesn't really matter just as long as you cycle them. This allows me to run with my already 209 speed to constant speeds between 300-450 at all times. However most of the time I run at the 209 constant and I tend to use Omega, evasive and clean getaway depending on the situation and the need for the boosts rather than a constant speed cycle.
The advantages of the speed allow you to speed tank, you can run out of range or certain firing arcs fairly easy, you can out run certain abilities, the speed helps you escape from holds or slows and escape combat while low health.
The downside at higher speeds is that its hard to fire torpedoes, In most cases you have to go to half impulse to fire the torps then speed up again or go out of combat then come back in to line up the shots
Though i don't have much of an issue at the high speeds fighting slower ships, it is hard some times dog fighting other escorts as you are both flying around at super high speeds
Pft. You're going to try to claim "immersion" in an MMO? Especially one like this?
And even ignoring that ridiculousness, it's Star Trek. Wacky Space Magic Incorporated. Stuff can go pretty darn fast in space, especially when you have effectively infinite power to throw at the problem.
...swear to god, "immersion" is one meaningless buzzword that just needs to die in a fire.
Speed was vitally important in PVP:
Moar Speed = Higher Bonus Defense
Higher Bonus Defense = More shots missing you, or less time in someone's firing arcs, or a bad position
More shots missing you = Less damage being dealt to you, less you have to repair
There was a soft cap at Bonus Defense last I recall. Once in the high 90s it takes more and more speed to get over the 100 mark. Traits can help increase that. The best Bonus Defense I've gotten was about 122 with my Romulan & Reman Warbirds. RRW traits ooze +Defense.
It was this reason why certain AOE abilities were prized in PVP because they were guarantees of hits, even against speed demons. Also, Science abilities tend to not care how high your speed, bonus defense is.
With the power of even Cruisers now and the asymmetrical nature of Science, it's pretty important for Escorts not to be so easily caught. There's also the catch that these days compared to when I last PVP'd long ago, there are an astounding array of ways to increase Accuracy. Back then Acc x3 weapons sold well because PVPers wanted it to reliably hit those elite players flying the old JHAS, Defiants, BOPs, etc. These days, Acc is piled on from so many different sources that it's mind boggling.
One thing about Speed Builds for PVP. They are for most parts buff dependent. A2D, EPTE, on top of high engine power and Hyper-Impulse Engines. The engine power and Hyper-Impulse are very big boosts to speed and mobility but A2D, EPTE are massive buffs towards that goal of speed. What happens if, say, someone were to remove those A2D & EPTE buffs with abilities like SNB? It's a different ballgame. There are other buff stripping abilities out there. There is even a reputation trait that can randomly remove some buffs. There is another old source for buff stripping.
Killing those speed buffs was like the old school ploy of removing EPTS from a Cruiser trying to tank in PVP back in the day.
There was already ingame a penalty to stealth for going faster. It's been that way since launch. Without me looking up wiki or anything, that looks to try to offset that penalty.
Perhaps the speed=defence equation could be adjusted as well as the speed bonus from items and abilities given a drop off the higher I think gets?
I'll also say that targeting range could be increased to 15k and perhaps the speed of energy weapons and especially torpedoes be increased a little bit to make things a little more playable for anyone who isn't in their teens and early 20s.
Just my opinion.
(Fyi, I'm in my mid 30s and I can deal with a 200 impulse, 120 degree turn ship tyvm so that excuse of age lowering your reactions does not wash with me, you just need to practice flying something thats faster than a cruiser)
While I would agree beams should be hitscan (which they are if you ignore the graphics, I can be hit by beams registering outside 10km as they fired while I was in range while other shots will fire as part of the cycle even if theres no target to hit as the game does not automatically stop firing (as its been qued to fire but when the program seaches for the target, sees its out of range and so discharges randomly, hitting nothing)), outrunning torpedos is a natural thing as unlike 'reality' sto torpedos only have their launch speed, not the speed your ship is going at plus the speed of the launcher (aka being catapulted..space physics is bizzare as technically the torp mass pressing to the back of the launcher is being accelerated initially by ship impulse then the launcher accelerates it further)
If the torp speed calculations took ship speed into account then there would be no outrunning problem - so thats the fault of the games physics, not speed
and as I said regarding speed tanking - if that firing weapon fires whilst you are in range, as long as its calculated it hits, it will hit; speed used to minimise the amount of the full weapon cycle a ship can fire whilst its target is in range while conversely, more speed limits the amount of firepower the speed demon can bring to bear in a run meaning you need to heavily buff to get a 'vape'... but if a ship that was slower equipped the same, they'd still kill the target but with nore weapons firing on the target
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Escorts, especially the much more fragile Raiders, rely on speed, mobility, Bonus Defense because they do not have the staying power of a Cruiser.
Why should Escorts and Raiders suffer in survivability while Cruisers these days can also achieve great attack power while still retaining high survival capability?
No, that's WAI. It's called The Picard Maneuver. :P
Read first, then comment.
Oh I'm right on the money. You see, it's more than Bonus Defense. It's mobility to get out of trouble. As I said earlier in the thread:
I know what I'm talking about, I've been there and done that, and you need to read first, then comment
If you say DPS, I will direct you recent DPS nerf.
My t5u Defiant can keep up with a pilot ship for a few seconds with the right buff order but most of the time I'm substantially slower yet I can still speed tank just fine and I don't run immunities like most.
Escorts are supposed to be squishy, pilot ships even more so. It adds balance.
When escorts can tank as well as a cruiser it's a bad sign.
If you don't like getting killed in an escort, fly a cruiser or don't PvP.
With escorts, risk should be part of the reward. That's what makes it fun.
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