As it is, playing ranked in another <1 year old AAA PvP-only game takes between 1-5 min to find a match solo during North American prime time, and even that is highly controlling based on one's hidden rank and not just level and rating.
STO STFs PUGs (Solo queue) are by comparison empty. For the match making to work, there would have to be a ton of people playing the same content for multiple rounds, and for that we'd need a greater variety of maps and scenarios.
Teams versus solo queues are another consideration I hope is addressed, since such a system greatly favors teamed players (who presumably have experience playing together and also communicate).
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
All I got out of the blog was "In order for it to figure out your skill... you need to actually PvP several times first before we actually CAN use the matchmaking system."
I can see that as a bit of a turn off for any rookies wanting to try it out, then get paired against veterans who vape them instantly.
Honestly I think instead of having everyone start at the bottom and gauge their level from there... a baseline based on gear might help a bit right off the bat. On the other hand people will find ways to gimmick themselves to be able to get thrown into matches with rookies so they can just be jerks and vape them all, such as having a set of low quality gear, queue up, get in, and swap to their gold XIVs and just vape everything in sight, thus lowering morale for the opposing team and stroking their own ego.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
So, if it takes gear into account, what if someone puts on mk2 gear, queues up, then changes to mk 14 epic, would that have an effect on their placement or does the system look in your inventory?
As it looks, this system seems really nice. I just don't want people to game it because, well, people do that...
Hopefully this system works and that they add to it as well as continue to balance the game. That being said, I find it funny how the blog post keeps referring to player "skill." When in reality, the people who win in PvP are the ones who spend more time/money building the best "mash space-bar build."
Not quite...PvP's pretty much the opposite of mashing space bar, since you have to time stuff in and around immunities and the opponent's abilities, as well as carrying counters for abilities and situations with the knowledge of when to use them. Sure, money plays some role, but I'd bet you don't get very far in PvP with a spacebar bind.
Up until now, the matchmaking system would be unaware of relative skill between players
Well no freakin DUH! And the fact you're doing it now because of PVP is even more insulting! I've been dealing with horrible random players in STFs for years now, but now that PVP is being revamped, NOW you're implementing a matchmaking system! Good to know where priorities lie.
My sentiment precisely regarding the above...of course matchmaking is getting fixed concurrently with a revamp to PvP, since having a way to ensure fairer matches is kinda important versus other people. Don't worry, the priorities still lie mainly with PvE content, FE's, reps, and the like. Plus, this new matchmaking system isn't meant for general PvE and isn't being implemented to help you run ISA more smoothly.
New PvP engine [11], PvP-faction for the Reputation System [10][19][8], "PvP Marks" as rewards [20], Matchmaking, e.g. matching people of comparable gear level [21], Rewards based on participation more than completion [22], PvP ratings/leaderboard tech is now available [18][23][21][24]
They were better off leaving them as just that, ideas.
Should've just used the resources to fix the many problems in-game instead of introducing new ones...and there will be new ones.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
Should've just used the resources to fix the many problems in-game instead of introducing new ones...and there will be new ones.
There will ALWAYS be new problems. Doesn't matter if they only fix old ones, new ones will come about. MMOs are evolving creatures in their own right. And old code doesn't always like talking with new code. There is no such thing as a Bug Free MMO. Even WoW has bugs, and they have way more money and resources than STO.
The point is that they are at least TRYING something. If it works or not remains to be seen. However, as the old saying goes: It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Basically I'm reading this as skill based match-making with some gear stats thrown in. I've played other games with similar criteria and there's definitely ways around it. When it comes to any competitive games you play against people over the internet, you're always going to get those players who just want to wreck face and smash noobs. That's their fun. These same people have no interest in being competitive and they will find ways around it, no matter how "smart" the algorithm supposedly is. I don't expect it to be any different with STO.
It sounds a lot like what was used in Marvel: Avengers Alliance. The game keeps a stat that represents your relative ability. In AA it was publically shown so that people could see the relative power diff between themselves and their opponent. anyways,, winning made your score go up. Losing made it go down. If there was a ranking difference between you and your opponent that'd change the amount you gained or lost. IE if you fought a weaker player and won, you'd get fewer points, but losing to a weaker player meant losing more points. also it made an effort to match you against people with a similar score.
NOT interested in any form of competing with anyone else. NOT interested in PVP.
You cannot turn a PVE game into a PVP game.
I deal with people that I do not want to all day at work...I do not want to pay to play a game only to do the same thing.
Wow. I do often wonder what chunks of the playerbase actually expect... even if the calculation is very rough to start with, repeated play will even things out; it's why most of the wargame tournaments I've been to use the similar "swiss system" so that, after a bit, players have a reasonable chance of squaring off against equal opponents.
Really, that is what PVP was back when I used to do it - I will be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre player with poor reaction times and situational awareness, so even epic gear is of limited help. But back in the day I had a reasonable chance of finding a comparably amateur opponent, which made it fun.
I also think there's a good strategy here. Initially most players will be running these queues, if only for the new reputation. That gives Cryptic a decent chance of gathering performance data, and it also means that (initially) the PVP newbies will be facing other newbies - and so won't get stomped, and can enjoy.
Seriously. This is the most genuinely interesting thing in the game since F2P, and I look forward to trying it. Kudos to Cryptic for actually being willing to try something new; it's a shame more players aren't.
If its anything like the last battle zone, its doomed. I really dont care for PvP, when I do I go play World of Warships which I like. STO isnt and will never be like it at all unless your taking away all the different builds and nerfing the TRIBBLE out of everything to make it even. But as with everything time will truly tell.
System seems good. Can't wait to see it in play along with the space abilities revamp. To the PvE people complaining. PvE is fine. Just go pair up with DPS10K channel people and you'll do fine.
nerfing the **** out of everything to make it even. But as with everything time will truly tell.
This is what many claim the rebalance changes are... but why is that a bad thing? Surely players should be able to run things other than BFAW / Plasma Consoles without being whined at for "letting the side down"?
... even if the calculation is very rough to start with, repeated play will even things out;
If it's a frustrating experience, these queues will not see wide-spread repeated play to build any kind of solid database to begin with. It will dwindle down to the hardcore PvP'ers because, let's face it - this update is aimed squarely at them. And if Cryptic doesn't please those people then we're talking about more dead queues to add to the current pile.
I've already made up my mind because PvP doesn't interest me in the least. I won't be contributing to Cryptic's data gathering. I would hazard a guess that I won't be the only one. But for the sake of conversation, let's say I decide to give in and check it out and get utterly smashed. Alright, I'm willing to take a few lumps so I decide to give it another shot and get smashed again. Do you honestly think I'm going continue just to help Cryptic crunch numbers in the hope that your PvP experience will get better? Absolutely not. I'll move on and leave it to the handful of people that want it.
If the current playerbase of PvP'ers are hoping this update will give them more people to shoot at, hopefully it works out for them. I guess only time will tell. I won't be among those ranks.
I'm afraid it's far too late for such a system, or, far too early, take your pick. A system like this requires a huge amount of participating players like certain games have that are "Dedicated" to player PVP. It's just going make queued PVP even more inaccessible due to queue times unless it's outright ignored to make matches happen at all, and never gets to come into play anyway. PVP is always going to be a niche thing in STO I'm afraid.
Exceptional. PPS appears to be based on Glicko, which I have always found to be very accurate. I have successfully worked with Glicko organizing rankings for our board game club. Chess players use a similar system, and e.g. Guild Wars 2 WvW servers are ranked with it.
As a character’s ranking is not supposed to be public, the system should work even better, as the players are not driven to maximize their rating, i.e. by choosing to fight only enemies that would give them the best rating for victory, which would blur overall accuracy (ratings can be forged if the values are known).
A proper system. Obviously not meant to be a public ranking, but strictly for evenly matching players. Just everyone must be aware that this won’t work immediately, but only after a couple of matches. I just hope the “gear score” makes enough sense
A place for race pilots in STO: /channel_join Racing
Win 15,000 GPL in the Hodos Racing Challenge!
I'm intrigued, but i only tried PvP for about the first year or so after I started when the game went F2P. I stopped because I figured out I'm not that great at the min-maxing thing. I got somewhat better over time, but being face-rolled in 20 seconds instead of 5 is still being face-rolled. Now I'm very comfortable in my builds, which mix trying to achieve as much DPS as possible while also having fun. I can't see myself getting back into PvP.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
My only criticism of this Power Level system is that we can't see other people's Power Levels or our own.
It would be way more interesting if you could.
I've been a part of gaming communities where devs have tried this. It's not pretty. With a visible "truskill rank" (Halo reference, it's basically just this) players will inevitably try to guess when (and to what degree) they'll rank up or down based on recent matches. When inevitably they find themselves with an unexpected outcome, they complain (given that it's easier for people to assume that the devs have created a bad system, rather than that they themselves have incomplete information and faulty guesses.)
For example: "My friend and I were on the same winning team, but he just went up two levels while I stayed the same. OMFG THIS IS SO BROKEN!!!" (a FCT in Halo 3)
Basically, while interesting there's far too much potential for arm-chair guess work. That can easily turn from academic analysis to random raging. It's far better for matchmaking skill factors to be left hidden (in similar fashion to the current live population of STO; the possible discussion outcomes are either neutral or negative, not positive [enough to justify the trouble].)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Making player gear/ability scores visible to other players has never been and will never be a good idea given the nature of online communities.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Really gotta wonder why this information won't be public. Other players have already talked about why measuring gear is next to pointless, only when put together with other build and account information will it be worth anything. And of course gear measures can be gamed.
Not making it public is a huge mistake. Give us leader boards with tons of stats already. Give us a measure to justify your market sales and evaluate the games mechanics.
Making player gear/ability scores visible to other players has never been and will never be a good idea given the nature of online communities.
I would have to agree. And when you throw in epeen boasters, sore losers and graceless winners, it doesn't really help in creating a fun environment. You can already find that kind of acidity in the chat now.
One thing I find funny is that given the limited info we have, some people are already devising ways of trolling this new system. Give them more info and they'll fine tune it. I think Crytic might have their hands full for a bit when this goes live.
This is probably the most MORONIC idea EVER created. The queus if any are dead now..what do you think it's going to happen when it's launched. It will be DEADER.
I have zero desire to PvP in any form. Email me when you stop wasting time with anything even remotely related to PvP. Already looking forward to the next expansion that has NOTHING to do with PvP epeening.
nerfing the **** out of everything to make it even. But as with everything time will truly tell.
This is what many claim the rebalance changes are... but why is that a bad thing? Surely players should be able to run things other than BFAW / Plasma Consoles without being whined at for "letting the side down"?
In one way its not other than they allow players to get where they are or work on it as I have in the last few years. Now as my sig says its been a waste of my time. The game should have been for the most part like this form the beginning, now wait until players have spent lots of game time to get where they are only to be nerfed to death in the end. To those who whine about it, well, I say if they can do it so can you. If someone blows a borg cube in one shot, oh well, Janeway did it. Losing everything you worked hard for, player investment losing value,, choices made feel no longer meaningful, well in my book isnt fun. How I feel right now. If they want all of us to be even, well, lets all have the same ship with the same gear. Just looking at all the last few add ons to the game shows how QA works now days. I dont even go to the ground battle zones anymore and space is next. But when it goes live will truly tell so this is all really just a DOOM thread like most of the others.
Comments
As it is, playing ranked in another <1 year old AAA PvP-only game takes between 1-5 min to find a match solo during North American prime time, and even that is highly controlling based on one's hidden rank and not just level and rating.
STO STFs PUGs (Solo queue) are by comparison empty. For the match making to work, there would have to be a ton of people playing the same content for multiple rounds, and for that we'd need a greater variety of maps and scenarios.
Teams versus solo queues are another consideration I hope is addressed, since such a system greatly favors teamed players (who presumably have experience playing together and also communicate).
I can see that as a bit of a turn off for any rookies wanting to try it out, then get paired against veterans who vape them instantly.
Honestly I think instead of having everyone start at the bottom and gauge their level from there... a baseline based on gear might help a bit right off the bat. On the other hand people will find ways to gimmick themselves to be able to get thrown into matches with rookies so they can just be jerks and vape them all, such as having a set of low quality gear, queue up, get in, and swap to their gold XIVs and just vape everything in sight, thus lowering morale for the opposing team and stroking their own ego.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
As it looks, this system seems really nice. I just don't want people to game it because, well, people do that...
Not quite...PvP's pretty much the opposite of mashing space bar, since you have to time stuff in and around immunities and the opponent's abilities, as well as carrying counters for abilities and situations with the knowledge of when to use them. Sure, money plays some role, but I'd bet you don't get very far in PvP with a spacebar bind.
My sentiment precisely regarding the above...of course matchmaking is getting fixed concurrently with a revamp to PvP, since having a way to ensure fairer matches is kinda important versus other people. Don't worry, the priorities still lie mainly with PvE content, FE's, reps, and the like. Plus, this new matchmaking system isn't meant for general PvE and isn't being implemented to help you run ISA more smoothly.
They were better off leaving them as just that, ideas.
Should've just used the resources to fix the many problems in-game instead of introducing new ones...and there will be new ones.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
There will ALWAYS be new problems. Doesn't matter if they only fix old ones, new ones will come about. MMOs are evolving creatures in their own right. And old code doesn't always like talking with new code. There is no such thing as a Bug Free MMO. Even WoW has bugs, and they have way more money and resources than STO.
The point is that they are at least TRYING something. If it works or not remains to be seen. However, as the old saying goes: It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
Just roll with it and see how it goes.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
My character Tsin'xing
You cannot turn a PVE game into a PVP game.
I deal with people that I do not want to all day at work...I do not want to pay to play a game only to do the same thing.
Really, that is what PVP was back when I used to do it - I will be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre player with poor reaction times and situational awareness, so even epic gear is of limited help. But back in the day I had a reasonable chance of finding a comparably amateur opponent, which made it fun.
I also think there's a good strategy here. Initially most players will be running these queues, if only for the new reputation. That gives Cryptic a decent chance of gathering performance data, and it also means that (initially) the PVP newbies will be facing other newbies - and so won't get stomped, and can enjoy.
Seriously. This is the most genuinely interesting thing in the game since F2P, and I look forward to trying it. Kudos to Cryptic for actually being willing to try something new; it's a shame more players aren't.
This is what many claim the rebalance changes are... but why is that a bad thing? Surely players should be able to run things other than BFAW / Plasma Consoles without being whined at for "letting the side down"?
I've already made up my mind because PvP doesn't interest me in the least. I won't be contributing to Cryptic's data gathering. I would hazard a guess that I won't be the only one. But for the sake of conversation, let's say I decide to give in and check it out and get utterly smashed. Alright, I'm willing to take a few lumps so I decide to give it another shot and get smashed again. Do you honestly think I'm going continue just to help Cryptic crunch numbers in the hope that your PvP experience will get better? Absolutely not. I'll move on and leave it to the handful of people that want it.
If the current playerbase of PvP'ers are hoping this update will give them more people to shoot at, hopefully it works out for them. I guess only time will tell. I won't be among those ranks.
As a character’s ranking is not supposed to be public, the system should work even better, as the players are not driven to maximize their rating, i.e. by choosing to fight only enemies that would give them the best rating for victory, which would blur overall accuracy (ratings can be forged if the values are known).
A proper system. Obviously not meant to be a public ranking, but strictly for evenly matching players. Just everyone must be aware that this won’t work immediately, but only after a couple of matches. I just hope the “gear score” makes enough sense
Win 15,000 GPL in the Hodos Racing Challenge!
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
I've been a part of gaming communities where devs have tried this. It's not pretty. With a visible "truskill rank" (Halo reference, it's basically just this) players will inevitably try to guess when (and to what degree) they'll rank up or down based on recent matches. When inevitably they find themselves with an unexpected outcome, they complain (given that it's easier for people to assume that the devs have created a bad system, rather than that they themselves have incomplete information and faulty guesses.)
For example: "My friend and I were on the same winning team, but he just went up two levels while I stayed the same. OMFG THIS IS SO BROKEN!!!" (a FCT in Halo 3)
Basically, while interesting there's far too much potential for arm-chair guess work. That can easily turn from academic analysis to random raging. It's far better for matchmaking skill factors to be left hidden (in similar fashion to the current live population of STO; the possible discussion outcomes are either neutral or negative, not positive [enough to justify the trouble].)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Not making it public is a huge mistake. Give us leader boards with tons of stats already. Give us a measure to justify your market sales and evaluate the games mechanics.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
One thing I find funny is that given the limited info we have, some people are already devising ways of trolling this new system. Give them more info and they'll fine tune it. I think Crytic might have their hands full for a bit when this goes live.
Original STO beta tester.
In one way its not other than they allow players to get where they are or work on it as I have in the last few years. Now as my sig says its been a waste of my time. The game should have been for the most part like this form the beginning, now wait until players have spent lots of game time to get where they are only to be nerfed to death in the end. To those who whine about it, well, I say if they can do it so can you. If someone blows a borg cube in one shot, oh well, Janeway did it. Losing everything you worked hard for, player investment losing value,, choices made feel no longer meaningful, well in my book isnt fun. How I feel right now. If they want all of us to be even, well, lets all have the same ship with the same gear. Just looking at all the last few add ons to the game shows how QA works now days. I dont even go to the ground battle zones anymore and space is next. But when it goes live will truly tell so this is all really just a DOOM thread like most of the others.