'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
People acting like leech and FAW builds are just destroyed and useless, but Leech is, still one of the best consoles in the game even with the changes, it's just not extremely over powered, it's down to great or even amazing.
The leech nerf itself isn't the problem, its that they completely reworked how it works so it no longer benefits from the DrainX stat, which in itself DOES destroy and make a number of builds useless.
I know my Science captains Command Warbird will be complete junk now with over a 60% reduction in its sub-100k DPS output, while my Engineer and Tac captains Fed and KDF ships will only take a minor hit.
DrainX has literally become a useless stat for my Romulan build since NOTHING else on my ship uses it in any form whatsoever, so with the leech change all the resources I spent on my DrainX gear is going completely to waste.
This is not in any way an exaggeration.
lol why would you invest so much into buffing a single console
But even with that in mind, a 60% hit to a 100k build is still a 40k build, which is still more than sufficient for almost anything in the game. Unless by sub-100k you meant you only so 50k or so, this impact, while large, is not even remotely a game breaker.
But yeah, those vape-monsters did cause me some AFK penalties. But I simply found something else to do while I was in 'time out'.
And then the question foremost in my mind is, So everyone needs to suffer greatly, just because like only 0.1% of the player base ever managed such montrous DPS?! I was not a part of said Elite. I didn't need nerfing.
Looking at all of the constructive feedback. I am starting to think the simple solution would work best. Simply hard cap DPS outputs and scale content to that based on three levels. As an example. If things were capped at 10k DPS max, then scale elite content to that or 9k+. Scale advance to 7k-9k, normal from 4k-7k, and easy based on any build that doesn't reach 4k DPS. The level can be set by the player for the experience they want and then everyone can have their builds the way they want them without feeling like PWE has ripped them off by making their style of play useless and invalidating all of the effort the player put in to creating their build.
lol why would you invest so much into buffing a single console
Um, because the Leech is the only console in game which can actually use all that DrainX to drain power, maybe?!
But even with that in mind, a 60% hit to a 100k build is still a 40k build, which is still more than sufficient for almost anything in the game. Unless by sub-100k you meant you only so 50k or so, this impact, while large, is not even remotely a game breaker.
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
It doesn't matter that WoW wasn't based on a TV show. You build a good game and wrap the show around it sticking as true as possible to the game while making allowances for good game play. You don't build the game around a show that was never designed to provide good game play but only tell a story.
As Doctor McCoy could say, are you out of your Vulcan mind?! Really, can you possibly even be remotely serious about this insane nonsense?
NEWS FLASH: Star Trek began as a television show in the mid-1960s, which is over 50 freaking years ago! At that time, the concepts of personal computers and video games were at best science fiction concepts with no idea when, if, or how such things would ever be implemented in reality. That television series gained a cult following which became a massive fanbase after syndication in the 70s revitalized and massively expanded its reach. Over the decades, the series-turned-franchise has spawned films, novels, merchandising, pretty much single-handedly made fanfiction a thing, also pretty much single-handedly made the fandom convention thing happen, launched several spin-off series and oh yeah, many video games once those got around to being invented.
So, Einstein, would you mind telling me exactly HOW in the name of Spock anyone is supposed to "wrap the show around the game" when the former predated the latter by over four decades? Even if it were somehow possible, it would be a mistake. Star Trek is far, far older and bigger than this MMO, and the game exists BECAUSE of the franchise. The game must, therefore, serve the franchise and not the other way around. To expect otherwise would not only be, as Spock would say, "highly illogical" but also go against what Scotty always said which is that "ye canna' change the laws o' physics!". Your suggestion violates the law of causality, which is that cause must always precede effect. The Star Trek franchise caused this game to happen. Thus it came first and gets to set the rules.
If you cannot accept this, then this game is not for you. Adapt to it or find something else to do with your time and energy, because you're not going to win a battle to change 50 years of Star Trek canon and lore because it doesn't agree with your idea of ideal game design.
Easy.. by putting good game play first. You put in factions, you put in equipment you provide viable ways for all factions in the game to obtain what is needed to support their classes. It's pretty simple really. No Vulcan mind needed. If you don't, you get a game like we have today with STO where the resources have dwindled so far that most things are a pipe dream and the game itself wouldn't exist if someone didn't hang the Star Trek name on it.
In other words...
Pig = Bad Game Design Choices
Lipstick = Star Trek IP
Only now are they trying to address some of that especially with the vesta 12 pack release. It's a step in the right direction but there's a lot that needs done to clean up the mess.
Your standard of "proper faction balance" is based on a purpose-designed MMO with a much larger budget and player population, it's a game first with the lore designed around what's best for gameplay. Star Trek Online is STAR TREK, first and foremost, just another spin-off property designed to satisfy the Trek fanbase same as the novels, films, subsequent television shows, RPGs, and other video games. STO serves the Star Trek IP and its fans, which means Star Trek lore from television and film is the template. Again, if you can't accept that then this is not the game for you.
It makes zero sense to devote 1:1 faction parity to groups that were a proportionally tiny part of canon who captivate a devoted vocal minority of the fanbase, and the fact that Klingons and Romulans exist as independently playable is more a bonus for hardcore fans than anything else. Star Trek has always been first and foremost about the Federation and Starfleet for the entirety of its 50 year existence and most Trek fans are interested in the Starfleet experience as they came to love on their screens for decades. They play to be like Kirk, or Picard, or Sisko, and be the captain of a Starfleet vessel like their screen heroes. That is the fact of the matter, period, and it's been that way for decades longer than this game was even a concept. One more time, if you cannot accept that, then this is not the game for you. Find something that's designed from the ground up to be a game in the WoW mold, since that seems to be what you want. This game is designed to deliver an experience directly based on the Star Trek television shows and movies, for fans of the IP. That will not change and it should never change.
Perhaps if they did proper design from the onset of introducing new factions it wouldn't be such a big cost to fix things this late in the game. Again arguing this is Star Trek isn't going to score points when proper game design paired with Star Trek means you get more players, more revenue, and more budget to do things.
YOUR idea of "proper design", based on the standards of a different game that was designed with a certain set of priorities. THIS game was designed with a different priority in mind, that of replicating as closely as reasonably possible the way things are in the Star Trek franchise. The idea of the thing is to give players the experience of vicariously living in the Star Trek setting and having adventures like those seen on screen, and the overwhelming majority of those screen adventures are centered firmly on Starfleet characters. The vast majority of Star Trek fans are fans of the Federation and their Starfleet heroes, as depicted on screen. Due to this, this game has a main faction and bonus factions and it does so to properly reflect the proportion of the fanbase dedicated to the respective groups. Keep in mind, this proportion was established over the course of decades, way before anyone ever thought of making a Star Trek MMO.
Again, if you don't like it, then a game devoted to recreating the Star Trek experience in video game form is not the game for you. Deal with it. Maybe try your argument again when we have one, even ONE film or series where a Klingon or Romulan ship and crew are the main protagonists. All you have now are a handful of episodes, and you want equality with the group that was the focus of 6 television series and 12 films? Again, are you out of your Vulcan mind?
My idea of game design has had successful Star Trek titles behind it since the DOS days.
My basic idea of support all factions has also been used in successful MMO's that put STO to shame which is why i used World of Warcraft as an example. If STO had properly supported its factions from day 1 of introducing new factions they could potentially have been in a much better financial position today then they are now with the limited resources they cite for not doing a lot of other things all the time.
I prefer not to second guess the motivations of a game developer trying to stay relevant to an ever evolving audience with a diverse array of expectations. To do otherwise is to descend into one's own personal ego! Playing this game and enjoying it is all well and good, but each of us should take a step back when our perceptions devolve into thinking that our "enjoyment" is being targeted for some nefarious reason.
It doesn't matter that WoW wasn't based on a TV show. You build a good game and wrap the show around it sticking as true as possible to the game while making allowances for good game play. You don't build the game around a show that was never designed to provide good game play but only tell a story.
As Doctor McCoy could say, are you out of your Vulcan mind?! Really, can you possibly even be remotely serious about this insane nonsense?
NEWS FLASH: Star Trek began as a television show in the mid-1960s, which is over 50 freaking years ago! At that time, the concepts of personal computers and video games were at best science fiction concepts with no idea when, if, or how such things would ever be implemented in reality. That television series gained a cult following which became a massive fanbase after syndication in the 70s revitalized and massively expanded its reach. Over the decades, the series-turned-franchise has spawned films, novels, merchandising, pretty much single-handedly made fanfiction a thing, also pretty much single-handedly made the fandom convention thing happen, launched several spin-off series and oh yeah, many video games once those got around to being invented.
So, Einstein, would you mind telling me exactly HOW in the name of Spock anyone is supposed to "wrap the show around the game" when the former predated the latter by over four decades? Even if it were somehow possible, it would be a mistake. Star Trek is far, far older and bigger than this MMO, and the game exists BECAUSE of the franchise. The game must, therefore, serve the franchise and not the other way around. To expect otherwise would not only be, as Spock would say, "highly illogical" but also go against what Scotty always said which is that "ye canna' change the laws o' physics!". Your suggestion violates the law of causality, which is that cause must always precede effect. The Star Trek franchise caused this game to happen. Thus it came first and gets to set the rules.
If you cannot accept this, then this game is not for you. Adapt to it or find something else to do with your time and energy, because you're not going to win a battle to change 50 years of Star Trek canon and lore because it doesn't agree with your idea of ideal game design.
Easy.. by putting good game play first. You put in factions, you put in equipment you provide viable ways for all factions in the game to obtain what is needed to support their classes. It's pretty simple really. No Vulcan mind needed. If you don't, you get a game like we have today with STO where the resources have dwindled so far that most things are a pipe dream and the game itself wouldn't exist if someone didn't hang the Star Trek name on it.
In other words...
Pig = Bad Game Design Choices
Lipstick = Star Trek IP
Only now are they trying to address some of that especially with the vesta 12 pack release. It's a step in the right direction but there's a lot that needs done to clean up the mess.
Your standard of "proper faction balance" is based on a purpose-designed MMO with a much larger budget and player population, it's a game first with the lore designed around what's best for gameplay. Star Trek Online is STAR TREK, first and foremost, just another spin-off property designed to satisfy the Trek fanbase same as the novels, films, subsequent television shows, RPGs, and other video games. STO serves the Star Trek IP and its fans, which means Star Trek lore from television and film is the template. Again, if you can't accept that then this is not the game for you.
It makes zero sense to devote 1:1 faction parity to groups that were a proportionally tiny part of canon who captivate a devoted vocal minority of the fanbase, and the fact that Klingons and Romulans exist as independently playable is more a bonus for hardcore fans than anything else. Star Trek has always been first and foremost about the Federation and Starfleet for the entirety of its 50 year existence and most Trek fans are interested in the Starfleet experience as they came to love on their screens for decades. They play to be like Kirk, or Picard, or Sisko, and be the captain of a Starfleet vessel like their screen heroes. That is the fact of the matter, period, and it's been that way for decades longer than this game was even a concept. One more time, if you cannot accept that, then this is not the game for you. Find something that's designed from the ground up to be a game in the WoW mold, since that seems to be what you want. This game is designed to deliver an experience directly based on the Star Trek television shows and movies, for fans of the IP. That will not change and it should never change.
Perhaps if they did proper design from the onset of introducing new factions it wouldn't be such a big cost to fix things this late in the game. Again arguing this is Star Trek isn't going to score points when proper game design paired with Star Trek means you get more players, more revenue, and more budget to do things.
YOUR idea of "proper design", based on the standards of a different game that was designed with a certain set of priorities. THIS game was designed with a different priority in mind, that of replicating as closely as reasonably possible the way things are in the Star Trek franchise. The idea of the thing is to give players the experience of vicariously living in the Star Trek setting and having adventures like those seen on screen, and the overwhelming majority of those screen adventures are centered firmly on Starfleet characters. The vast majority of Star Trek fans are fans of the Federation and their Starfleet heroes, as depicted on screen. Due to this, this game has a main faction and bonus factions and it does so to properly reflect the proportion of the fanbase dedicated to the respective groups. Keep in mind, this proportion was established over the course of decades, way before anyone ever thought of making a Star Trek MMO.
Again, if you don't like it, then a game devoted to recreating the Star Trek experience in video game form is not the game for you. Deal with it. Maybe try your argument again when we have one, even ONE film or series where a Klingon or Romulan ship and crew are the main protagonists. All you have now are a handful of episodes, and you want equality with the group that was the focus of 6 television series and 12 films? Again, are you out of your Vulcan mind?
My idea of game design has had successful Star Trek titles behind it since the DOS days.
My basic idea of support all factions has also been used in successful MMO's that put STO to shame which is why i used World of Warcraft as an example. If STO had properly supported its factions from day 1 of introducing new factions they could potentially have been in a much better financial position today then they are now with the limited resources they cite for not doing a lot of other things all the time.
and if cryptic hadn't been under atari from the start, the klingon faction probably WOULD have gotten proper support and not had to wait 2.5 years for a proper starting experience, and romulans possibly would've also been added long before they actually were
remember the infamous 'year-long' content drought' shortly before PWE bought up STO? that was atari's fault
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
someone vaping everything in range before you can even get a shot off - and also causing you an AFK penalty in the process - ruins quite a few people's fun
at least that's how the victims tell it
Absolutely it does, I've had it happen to me and it's no fun at all. Even without the AFK penalty, I play the game to play the game, not to watch others play the game while I can't even find an enemy to engage. I might as well watch Youtube videos if my presence in the mission is so completely unneeded.
And how is nerfing everyone to death equally going to change that? Better players will still do 17x better than others. That won't change at all.
If that's the case, then this is a failure. The goal must be to bring down the top end to within a reasonable distance of the average, something like two or three times better instead of ten or twenty times better as it is now. Anything less simply isn't going to solve the problems I pointed out in my post, the game breaking destruction of any ability to balance the PvE game. Triple-digit kDPS numbers must never be seen again.
That's all I'm trying to say. ^
And that people will still be in real danger of being afk'd after the changes. Or not getting a chance to shoot anything because everything is dead.
And Tacs will still be the best at everything. What happened to all choices matter ?
And FaW is not hit nearly hard enough.
And people are going to complain. Again.
This is why I keep hampering on about difficulty levels being added to the queues.
Even red alerts and patrols.
As it stands DPS players have no choice but to enter Red Alerts, Patrols and Deep Space Encounters at the normal level. There's no Advanced, nor Elite. Just regular old Normal.
When a player with 50k DPS and above goes into these missions with end game gear and builds.. everything is obliterated.
But with no other choice then normal what can one do ?
I've gone so far as not using buffs and only single target attacks during red alerts and some normal queue content. So I don't ruin the game for everyone around me.
But not everyone will think that way. Some will even see it as an opportunity to troll players.
So I guess I'm just disappointed that the landscape won't be changing.
I'm finding it amusing that the thread has fixated on *one* aspect of the entire exercise - drain effects - and therefore screaming the whole rebalance is a failure. There is a lot of good stuff, even what looks like an actual effort to breathe some life into PVP.
Otherwise, it's a fact of life that any living game will go through big shifts where older stuff... changes in utility. It's by no means a phenomenon limited to STO or even MMOs. I suspect that most of those complaining are simply too young to have seen the cycle in operation before.
No most of those complaing have not PLAYED any other MMO before because 7 years without doing something like this is bloody unheard of in this genre. Why? Because I suspect that any REAL MMO would chew them alive and spit them out. They think this game is P2W. They think this game has grind. I am playing a korean MMO that REQUIRES that you play 8 hours a day to stay competitive. And you need to max out at least 3 alts (which takes about 6 months each) to do the BASIC stuff in endgame and honestly you need like 8 of them. Oh and if you don't buy cash items...forget about it...you are a scrub for life in that game. You don't technically need to buy the cash items...but your alts will now take you a year to level if you do that. And there is CONSTANT balance passes to make it harder and harder to grind out levels and get more money to get stuff you need. If these people played that game, their head would explode.
That doesn't sound like much fun Cold
I know what you mean tho. STO is Candyland compared to other titles.
so many people using the 'F' word here all of a sudden...if @ruinthefun were here, i know exactly what he'd say - but since he isn't, i'll have to say it for him
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Looking at all of the constructive feedback. I am starting to think the simple solution would work best. Simply hard cap DPS outputs and scale content to that based on three levels. As an example. If things were capped at 10k DPS max, then scale elite content to that or 9k+. Scale advance to 7k-9k, normal from 4k-7k, and easy based on any build that doesn't reach 4k DPS. The level can be set by the player for the experience they want and then everyone can have their builds the way they want them without feeling like PWE has ripped them off by making their style of play useless and invalidating all of the effort the player put in to creating their build.
This idea has been brought up many times, and I'll have to shoot it down every time. It is not a simple solution at all. You can only determine after the fact that a ship has achieved a certain DPS value and then you have to artificially neuter its damage until it's back in the "acceptable" region. What do you do if a player pops a particular buff, achieves the DPS threshold, the buff would keep running for another 5 seconds, but afterwards he'd deal almost no damage anyway for 30 seconds, lowering his effective DPS way below the threshold. You suddenly reduced his DPS below the intended max DPS, and he got nothing to show for it.
And it would also be incredibly frustrating and intuitive experience to suddenly see your damage drop to 0 because you did a bit too much damage before.
Ever seen a game that actually has implemented a DPS cap succesfully? If you can't think of one, ever thought why?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
After talking with some of the "elitist min-maxers", we're excited for these changes. If the rest are done right, there may not be a single meta that would dominate the entire game. Instead, there will be builds that will have strengths and weaknesses, and their performance will be based upon the pilots' skills, coordination between said pilots, and the STF's that they bring their builds into.
It makes zero sense to devote 1:1 faction parity to groups that were a proportionally tiny part of canon who captivate a devoted vocal minority of the fanbase, and the fact that Klingons and Romulans exist as independently playable is more a bonus for hardcore fans than anything else. Star Trek has always been first and foremost about the Federation and Starfleet for the entirety of its 50 year existence and most Trek fans are interested in the Starfleet experience as they came to love on their screens for decades. They play to be like Kirk, or Picard, or Sisko, and be the captain of a Starfleet vessel like their screen heroes.
It also makes zero sense to HAVE multiple independent (or not so independent for the romulans) factions if you're not going to treat them equally.
STO should have the single Alliance that we're all part of no restrictions and the factions treated as origin stories, just like the TOS "faction" is. And then we could put this whole "faction parity" debate to a rest.
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
I don't run a parser myself but have had my better ships parsed by others in ISA at between 10-15k, which based on how the content I do feels is probably just under where the devs want me to be. I was just using the number alexraptorr provided to illustrate that a nerf as great as they suggested they would take post-Leech was far from a game-breaker.
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
If players are "blazing through" enemies, then the enemies are obviously not "appropriately leveled."
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
I don't run a parser myself but have had my better ships parsed by others in ISA at between 10-15k, which based on how the content I do feels is probably just under where the devs want me to be. I was just using the number alexraptorr provided to illustrate that a nerf as great as they suggested they would take post-Leech was far from a game-breaker.
Actually, there are a handful of elite queues where 50k builds (50k parsed in ISA - as that's the parsing standard) are the bare minimum. To complete the optional in there, you really need a team of people who do 75k+.
However, both Storming the Spire and The Herald Sphere are extemely unpopular. I believe the reasons for it are:
1) They require more brain activity than pressing spacebar.
2) They are timegated - meaning the higher end of team's skill doesn't matter. You can have a team of 50k-ers or a team of 200k-ers, team still needs to wait for timer(s) to reach 0 and the mission will still take roughly the same time to complete.
3) They give out TRIBBLE poor rewards (StSE taking ~15 minutes and THSE ~8 minutes to complete, they both give around 80 marks)
And so players avoid them. Outside The Science Channel, I haven't seen people even forming premades to do those.
I have seen in other MMOs the vocal majority of the forums seem to work to change whatever Devs do with an MMO if most are opposed.
Here in STO the minority is so much stronger than the majority. I guess most are new and think this change is GOOD. Just wait till they launch it and I can hear the outcry of it is "NOT FAIR". I hope I'm very wrong on this one. However, based on reddit and tribble it does seem like the OP concerns are well noted.
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
I don't run a parser myself but have had my better ships parsed by others in ISA at between 10-15k, which based on how the content I do feels is probably just under where the devs want me to be. I was just using the number alexraptorr provided to illustrate that a nerf as great as they suggested they would take post-Leech was far from a game-breaker.
Actually, there are a handful of elite queues where 50k builds (50k parsed in ISA - as that's the parsing standard) are the bare minimum. To complete the optional in there, you really need a team of people who do 75k+.
However, both Storming the Spire and The Herald Sphere are extemely unpopular. I believe the reasons for it are:
1) They require more brain activity than pressing spacebar.
2) They are timegated - meaning the higher end of team's skill doesn't matter. You can have a team of 50k-ers or a team of 200k-ers, team still needs to wait for timer(s) to reach 0 and the mission will still take roughly the same time to complete.
3) They give out **** poor rewards (StSE taking ~15 minutes and THSE ~8 minutes to complete, they both give around 80 marks)
And so players avoid them. Outside The Science Channel, I haven't seen people even forming premades to do those.
You make some excellent points.
One of the things that always pushes my buttons on the oft-discussed topic of "nerf this" or "nerf that" is rooted in point 1.
Essentially it goes like this:
Forum Post 01 decries the state of the game because ISA or CCA are too easy and get stomped by big bad DPSers.
Forum Post 01 comes up with brilliant solution to make ISA and/or CCA take longer, and involve more teamwork to complete.
Forum Post 01 completely ignores the context of ISA and CCA.
Forum Post 01 also forgets that there already IS harder content in the game that requires teamwork. It's just ... as you point out, unpopular as all get out!
So yeah, we're going to tinker with a balance pass that is going to likely make all the content less enjoyable for people. But hey, FAW got the nerf is supposedly deserves! And that doggone Leech is getting nerfed!
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
I don't run a parser myself but have had my better ships parsed by others in ISA at between 10-15k, which based on how the content I do feels is probably just under where the devs want me to be. I was just using the number alexraptorr provided to illustrate that a nerf as great as they suggested they would take post-Leech was far from a game-breaker.
Actually, there are a handful of elite queues where 50k builds (50k parsed in ISA - as that's the parsing standard) are the bare minimum. To complete the optional in there, you really need a team of people who do 75k+.
However, both Storming the Spire and The Herald Sphere are extemely unpopular. I believe the reasons for it are:
1) They require more brain activity than pressing spacebar.
2) They are timegated - meaning the higher end of team's skill doesn't matter. You can have a team of 50k-ers or a team of 200k-ers, team still needs to wait for timer(s) to reach 0 and the mission will still take roughly the same time to complete.
3) They give out **** poor rewards (StSE taking ~15 minutes and THSE ~8 minutes to complete, they both give around 80 marks)
And so players avoid them. Outside The Science Channel, I haven't seen people even forming premades to do those.
You make some excellent points.
One of the things that always pushes my buttons on the oft-discussed topic of "nerf this" or "nerf that" is rooted in point 1.
Essentially it goes like this:
Forum Post 01 decries the state of the game because ISA or CCA are too easy and get stomped by big bad DPSers.
Forum Post 01 comes up with brilliant solution to make ISA and/or CCA take longer, and involve more teamwork to complete.
Forum Post 01 completely ignores the context of ISA and CCA.
Forum Post 01 also forgets that there already IS harder content in the game that requires teamwork. It's just ... as you point out, unpopular as all get out!
So yeah, we're going to tinker with a balance pass that is going to likely make all the content less enjoyable for people. But hey, FAW got the nerf is supposedly deserves! And that doggone Leech is getting nerfed!
Hahahahahah.
Don't forget the "never-gets-old" situation.
Cryptic actually nerfs something. The person who made "Forum Post 01" sees the nerf they requested, understands that it gimps themselves even more than the EVUL DPSer and makes "Forum Post 02", crying about the nerfs and wanting either a buff, game to be reverted or a refund.
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here. You think 100K is what your average player can pull?! Or even 50K, for that matter!? The casual player does around 30K, tops. Forgot what thread it was, but I saw a guy post a Tribble parsing here, with him doing barely 4K (I kid you not!). Now, that's exceptionally low, but let's take me, for instance, shall we? Best I ever did was 78K. So, taking your 60% hit, at 32.6K, I can count myself lucky if I will even be able to make the 30K channel again. And, mind you, that 78K was on a *good* day!
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
I don't run a parser myself but have had my better ships parsed by others in ISA at between 10-15k, which based on how the content I do feels is probably just under where the devs want me to be. I was just using the number alexraptorr provided to illustrate that a nerf as great as they suggested they would take post-Leech was far from a game-breaker.
Actually, there are a handful of elite queues where 50k builds (50k parsed in ISA - as that's the parsing standard) are the bare minimum. To complete the optional in there, you really need a team of people who do 75k+.
However, both Storming the Spire and The Herald Sphere are extemely unpopular. I believe the reasons for it are:
1) They require more brain activity than pressing spacebar.
2) They are timegated - meaning the higher end of team's skill doesn't matter. You can have a team of 50k-ers or a team of 200k-ers, team still needs to wait for timer(s) to reach 0 and the mission will still take roughly the same time to complete.
3) They give out **** poor rewards (StSE taking ~15 minutes and THSE ~8 minutes to complete, they both give around 80 marks)
And so players avoid them. Outside The Science Channel, I haven't seen people even forming premades to do those.
You make some excellent points.
One of the things that always pushes my buttons on the oft-discussed topic of "nerf this" or "nerf that" is rooted in point 1.
Essentially it goes like this:
Forum Post 01 decries the state of the game because ISA or CCA are too easy and get stomped by big bad DPSers.
Forum Post 01 comes up with brilliant solution to make ISA and/or CCA take longer, and involve more teamwork to complete.
Forum Post 01 completely ignores the context of ISA and CCA.
Forum Post 01 also forgets that there already IS harder content in the game that requires teamwork. It's just ... as you point out, unpopular as all get out!
So yeah, we're going to tinker with a balance pass that is going to likely make all the content less enjoyable for people. But hey, FAW got the nerf is supposedly deserves! And that doggone Leech is getting nerfed!
Hahahahahah.
Don't forget the "never-gets-old" situation.
Cryptic actually nerfs something. The person who made "Forum Post 01" sees the nerf they requested, understands that it gimps themselves even more than the EVUL DPSer and makes "Forum Post 02", crying about the nerfs and wanting either a buff, game to be reverted or a refund.
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
LOL, that has hi-larious.
But even with that in mind, a 60% hit to a 100k build is still a 40k build, which is still more than sufficient for almost anything in the game. Unless by sub-100k you meant you only so 50k or so, this impact, while large, is not even remotely a game breaker.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
And then the question foremost in my mind is, So everyone needs to suffer greatly, just because like only 0.1% of the player base ever managed such montrous DPS?! I was not a part of said Elite. I didn't need nerfing.
Um, because the Leech is the only console in game which can actually use all that DrainX to drain power, maybe?!
I'm glad you said this, as, no offense, it shows some people are rather detached from reality here.
So, if this just turns out to be a desolation-nerf, just to get to a handful of Elite players, out of spite, then I'm going to be even more upset than I already am!
My idea of game design has had successful Star Trek titles behind it since the DOS days.
http://www.starfleetproject.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Armada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Armada_II
My basic idea of support all factions has also been used in successful MMO's that put STO to shame which is why i used World of Warcraft as an example. If STO had properly supported its factions from day 1 of introducing new factions they could potentially have been in a much better financial position today then they are now with the limited resources they cite for not doing a lot of other things all the time.
Take a chill pill!
and if cryptic hadn't been under atari from the start, the klingon faction probably WOULD have gotten proper support and not had to wait 2.5 years for a proper starting experience, and romulans possibly would've also been added long before they actually were
remember the infamous 'year-long' content drought' shortly before PWE bought up STO? that was atari's fault
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That's all I'm trying to say. ^
And that people will still be in real danger of being afk'd after the changes. Or not getting a chance to shoot anything because everything is dead.
And Tacs will still be the best at everything. What happened to all choices matter ?
And FaW is not hit nearly hard enough.
And people are going to complain. Again.
This is why I keep hampering on about difficulty levels being added to the queues.
Even red alerts and patrols.
As it stands DPS players have no choice but to enter Red Alerts, Patrols and Deep Space Encounters at the normal level. There's no Advanced, nor Elite. Just regular old Normal.
When a player with 50k DPS and above goes into these missions with end game gear and builds.. everything is obliterated.
But with no other choice then normal what can one do ?
I've gone so far as not using buffs and only single target attacks during red alerts and some normal queue content. So I don't ruin the game for everyone around me.
But not everyone will think that way. Some will even see it as an opportunity to troll players.
So I guess I'm just disappointed that the landscape won't be changing.
Blah
Anyway thanks for the logical post.
That doesn't sound like much fun Cold
I know what you mean tho. STO is Candyland compared to other titles.
FUN IS A FILTHY PARASITE!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
when john cleese started high stepping it reminded me of the ministry of silly walks lol
This idea has been brought up many times, and I'll have to shoot it down every time. It is not a simple solution at all. You can only determine after the fact that a ship has achieved a certain DPS value and then you have to artificially neuter its damage until it's back in the "acceptable" region. What do you do if a player pops a particular buff, achieves the DPS threshold, the buff would keep running for another 5 seconds, but afterwards he'd deal almost no damage anyway for 30 seconds, lowering his effective DPS way below the threshold. You suddenly reduced his DPS below the intended max DPS, and he got nothing to show for it.
And it would also be incredibly frustrating and intuitive experience to suddenly see your damage drop to 0 because you did a bit too much damage before.
Ever seen a game that actually has implemented a DPS cap succesfully? If you can't think of one, ever thought why?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
STO should have the single Alliance that we're all part of no restrictions and the factions treated as origin stories, just like the TOS "faction" is. And then we could put this whole "faction parity" debate to a rest.
Oh, I don't think 50-100k is normal at all - in fact I think it's outright broken and desperately needs to be reined in, based on how fast people pulling those ~100k builds melt everything in their path. Nobody should be blazing through appropriately leveled enemies that quickly in any game IMO.
I don't run a parser myself but have had my better ships parsed by others in ISA at between 10-15k, which based on how the content I do feels is probably just under where the devs want me to be. I was just using the number alexraptorr provided to illustrate that a nerf as great as they suggested they would take post-Leech was far from a game-breaker.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
I guess that distinction depends on whether we use the players or the content as the metric balance is measured against.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Actually, there are a handful of elite queues where 50k builds (50k parsed in ISA - as that's the parsing standard) are the bare minimum. To complete the optional in there, you really need a team of people who do 75k+.
However, both Storming the Spire and The Herald Sphere are extemely unpopular. I believe the reasons for it are:
1) They require more brain activity than pressing spacebar.
2) They are timegated - meaning the higher end of team's skill doesn't matter. You can have a team of 50k-ers or a team of 200k-ers, team still needs to wait for timer(s) to reach 0 and the mission will still take roughly the same time to complete.
3) They give out TRIBBLE poor rewards (StSE taking ~15 minutes and THSE ~8 minutes to complete, they both give around 80 marks)
And so players avoid them. Outside The Science Channel, I haven't seen people even forming premades to do those.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Here in STO the minority is so much stronger than the majority. I guess most are new and think this change is GOOD. Just wait till they launch it and I can hear the outcry of it is "NOT FAIR". I hope I'm very wrong on this one. However, based on reddit and tribble it does seem like the OP concerns are well noted.
You make some excellent points.
One of the things that always pushes my buttons on the oft-discussed topic of "nerf this" or "nerf that" is rooted in point 1.
Essentially it goes like this:
So yeah, we're going to tinker with a balance pass that is going to likely make all the content less enjoyable for people. But hey, FAW got the nerf is supposedly deserves! And that doggone Leech is getting nerfed!
Hahahahahah.
Don't forget the "never-gets-old" situation.
Cryptic actually nerfs something. The person who made "Forum Post 01" sees the nerf they requested, understands that it gimps themselves even more than the EVUL DPSer and makes "Forum Post 02", crying about the nerfs and wanting either a buff, game to be reverted or a refund.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Hah, good point.