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Is J'mpok a great Chancellor?
lordgyor
Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
Lets count his glorious victories.
1. made the Orions. Gorn, Nausicaans, and Ferasans (possibly the Letheans) into vassel states, vastly increasing the size of the Empires armies, fleets, worlds, technology, etc... In the process, serious made the Empire vaster.
2. Likely took some extra territory from the Romulans as well.
3. Sort of victorious in their war with the federation in the sense of helping to free it of Undine Influence.
4. Won a series of proxi wars with the Iconians, both servitor races like the Elachi, Vaudwaar, Heralds, and manipulates powers like the Undine, Voth, Federation, Gorn, ect..., and ultimately gain peace with the Iconians in a war the Empire should never have won.
5. Shares the two Dyson Spheres with the alliance powers.
6. Defeated the Borg, Tholians, Feklri.
7. Increased relations with Gamma Quadrant Worlds
8. Helped create the Alliance
9. Has presided over the greatest advancement of Star Ship technology in recent memory
10. Gained technology from the future.
11. Defeated the Sphere builders and their allies, including the Terran Empire.
I mean J'mpok rein has some serious bragging rights, his hold on the Empire is massively secure, even House Martok dare not challenge him at this point.
1. made the Orions. Gorn, Nausicaans, and Ferasans (possibly the Letheans) into vassel states, vastly increasing the size of the Empires armies, fleets, worlds, technology, etc... In the process, serious made the Empire vaster.
2. Likely took some extra territory from the Romulans as well.
3. Sort of victorious in their war with the federation in the sense of helping to free it of Undine Influence.
4. Won a series of proxi wars with the Iconians, both servitor races like the Elachi, Vaudwaar, Heralds, and manipulates powers like the Undine, Voth, Federation, Gorn, ect..., and ultimately gain peace with the Iconians in a war the Empire should never have won.
5. Shares the two Dyson Spheres with the alliance powers.
6. Defeated the Borg, Tholians, Feklri.
7. Increased relations with Gamma Quadrant Worlds
8. Helped create the Alliance
9. Has presided over the greatest advancement of Star Ship technology in recent memory
10. Gained technology from the future.
11. Defeated the Sphere builders and their allies, including the Terran Empire.
I mean J'mpok rein has some serious bragging rights, his hold on the Empire is massively secure, even House Martok dare not challenge him at this point.
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Federation.
Instead of offering proof of Undine threats, he kicked off a war that bled both sides and then when Iconians appeared he appointed the worst commander possible and gave free reign to an incompetent 'black ops' group who threw away the Empire's greatest symbols.
Not a fan.
Then he starts realizing that there are greater threats, beyond what he imagined before becoming Chancellor, and gains the alliegence of the Gorn and Nausicaans instead of just subjating them.
He reaches out to the Ferasans to gain there support as well, but when the full extent of extent of the threats against the Empire Materialize, the Feklri, the Borg, the Undine, the Iconians and so on, he finally makes peace with the Romulans and Federation.
He's cool in my book.
Do you really think the Orion people, especially the women can be made to do anything or make others do things?
The only time we even saw the Klingons try to do anything about the Undine, the Captain treated a request for evidence like it was an insult to his honour and got his crew killed for nothing. If that's the kind of people J'mpok used, he probably just made it worse.
This. There was never any evidence of proof being offered- we discovered it ourselves, and frankly when we did find Undine- there were only a couple and frankly not big enough of a deal to justify a war.
Now to be honest, he's likely the victim of bad writing- the same as our own character in "Divide et Impera".
And it hasn't improved much. Consider "Of Signs and Portents" which has us following another Klingon character into a war against the Tzenkethi- a mission were the Klingons were looking for a fight before it even started, and where we don't even stop to ask the Tzenkethi why they are attacking these worlds? They should have least given us the chance to have diplomacy throw back in our face instead of the stock Klingon "We won't go away! War!".
The people writing this game are so interested in getting to the battles, they don't stop to consider a reasonable path to those battles.
One would hope not. I think actually it a success for the Orion leadership- access to better the ships and technology of the Empire in exchange for token support.
Problem is writing a one size fits all script to cut many corners...Klingons aren't much for diplomacy...Feds are...Romulans can go many ways, not to mention if we ever get other factions.
And yet the only UFP infiltration we ever find was one ambassador who we outed ourselves and Cooper who infiltrated during a operation that Involved the Klingons (and who outed himself).
There is no evidence of widespread infiltration of the UFP, and thus no reason for the Klingons to declare war on it. What is worse, is that by going to war the Empire was in truth acting as a proxy for the Iconians- something they didn't correct until the entire High Council was killed before J'mok own eyes.
Everyone in this game have been idiots from day one, and none of them can be justified.
You know what the title reminds me of?
J'mpok, a great chancellor, or the greatest chancellor?
So what, another case of the Federation finding out on its own. And oddly they didn't have to go around killing thousands or perhaps even millions of innocent people to do it unlike the Klingons. The rest- not very interesting either, the normal price of day to day operation in Star Trek as far as I can tell.
No body saved anybody, this is a game and as such Cryptic would never destroy the Galaxy. Instead they just write poorly crafted background fluff intended to support the release PvP experience- but that we in fact as players in the game never personally encounter.
Beyond that, the Klingons are simple murderers with enough blood on their hands that they disgust me. If their methods are the only thing to 'save' the galaxy- I'd rather it be dead.
LOL it doesn't matter what you like. The ingame canon is ingame canon. The Klingon Empire was 100% right in doing what they did when their wayward ally, the Federation, was telling them they were 100% full of s--t. Mind you the Federation and even Starfleet had been infiltrated. The Gorn Confederacy WAS thoroughly infiltrated which was what brought on the Klingon invasion. The Klingons were the only ones appreciative of the Undine infiltration threat, the only ones that caught onto the internal problem, the only ones that took immediate, drastic action. You may not like the means, and that's fine, it was quite heavy handed. But their ally at the time, the Federation, was telling them to f--k off.
So the Empire, again was 100% right in their actions. And this was shown most especially so when the war was concluded with the conference at the Solanae Sphere. The Federation through Capt Shon admitted their actions leading into the Undine threat were wrong. Ambassador S'stasss even emphasized it, to make it openly clear, "You admit you were wrong?" Shon, on behalf of the Federation, swallowed a lot of pride to admit it. Then the road to peace between the 2 powers was then open.
If the Klingons did not take their drastic, heavy-handed action, the Undine Infiltration would have gone unchecked. The Federation wouldn't have done anything because as far as the Federation was concerned (with their infiltrated leadership, to include even in Starfleet), there was no infiltration problem. The Gorn didn't think there was an infiltration problem.
But there was, and the Empire was the only one to do anything about it.
I'm not fond of J'mpok. I would have rather liked the idea of Chancellor Martok leading the Klingon Empire and that would have been awesome.
But for the ingame facts, they are what they are. The list of things under the OP's initial post is valid. All that happened under Chancellor J'mpok's leadership of the Empire. I hate to say it, but that is the biggest list of accomplishments of any Klingon Chancellor we know of. From the TV shows, movies, to the ingame facts. J'mpok is the most accomplished Chancellor the Empire has had. Martok was part of and oversaw most of the Dominion War. But that is one war and the Empire in J'mpok's watch has seen a lot of conflict and made it out in good terms. Membership of the Alliance has been very good for all in it and J'mpok seems quite content in honoring it.
In STO's timeframe, these are very good times to be a warrior in the Empire. Considering how long lived Klingons can be, some of the leadership was around and in service during the Dominion War. If they're still around as of "Of Signs and Portents," then they have a large list of glories to boast about.
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That doesn't mean that he hasn't done anything wrong though. Starfleet and the Federation's were not more infiltrated than the Empire itself (see the Klingons who attack you in one of the first Fed missions for example). It was just a handful of people being replaced, one ambassador, one captain (of many) and one researcher, who probably was replaced by the Undine at a later time, somewhere in the Borg arc.
And for the record; it's easy to say that the Klingons provided evidence by publicly executing the Undine infiltrators in the Gorn government. But that's clearly something they only did after fighting the war, the war they wanted the Federation to join BEFORE they had given any evidence. It's the same stupid behaviour we see in Diplomatic Orders; they basically expect you to hand over an Ambassador, agressively demanding it and we just have to believe them that that would be the right thing to do. It doesn't matter whether they were, in the end, right or not about that specific infiltration; they had ridiculous expectations and then consider the player (or in the case of the Gorn war, the entire Federation) a fool for not living up to those ridiculous expectations.
Childishly claiming 'but we were right' doesn't change anything about the severe lack of tact the Empire and its officers displayed in the whole matter.
Oh I definitely agree with that. He's almost tolerable... for a Klingon
1. May be correct although IIRC only the Gorn were actually conquered, the rest paid to work for them
2. Is your own guesswork
3-11. Is all the stuff the Player Character did
Sure he expanded it, but in doing so he pointlessly sacrificed thousands of warriors in a war he could not possibly win, and his reasons for doing so - preventing Species 8472 from infiltrating the alpha and beta quadrant - was so flawed that they STILL infiltrated even the Klingon empire (as seen in several federation missions).
He COULD have gone to the empires closest ally, and dropped a dead 8472 on the table, but no... Much easier to be offended, like a little spoiled child, and simply start a war... Mind you, the federation did not declare the war... They "simply" declined to help an invasion without proof...
There is no doubt that the Federation made a fatal error in judgement when it comes to the threat of 8472, but that does not excuse wasting a warriors life when there are more honorable ones to be fought.
Add to that, he has allowed dishonorable conduct to become a regular occurrence within the empire, attacking and destroying defenseless convoys and civilians on regular basis, something that even Duras himself would not do...
I mean Duras... This was the warrior who had Worf stripped of his honor, to cover for his fathers dishonor and STILL respected Worf's right for vengeance over his dead wife... Even HE would not simply engage without provocation (his sisters... lets just not go there).
Under J'mpok, the empire has been reduced to a dishonorable and untrustworthy empire, that is incapable of upholding it's own security and codes of conduct.
actually he pretty much did after find a whole bruch of undine in the gorn leadership after they, actually undine pretending to be gorn, picked a fight and feds called him a liar. the whole thing is a shining example of no good choices just varying levels a bad with no real way of telling if any other choice would be any better or worse.
though I agree J'mpok is not a good leader for the empire... though martok near the end of his reign was just as bad. actually I can't think of anyone currently in game that be a good fit. worf while a honorable warrior has chosen the federation over the empire in the past. any current leader would need to put klingon ideals first while not actually alienating the feds and RR. which would be interesting to see.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Ahem. You might wish to peruse the STOWiki entries for 2400 and 2401. Worf went to the Federation Council with the Undine evidence and was ignored. That's a decorated veteran officer and ambassador, who understood Klingon politics better than most.
Then in 2401 we get this gem: "A contingent of retired and current Starfleet officers, including Ambassador Worf, Admirals Beverly Crusher, Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay and retired Captains Ezri Dax and Tuvok appealed to the Federation Council to reconsider its position on the Klingon-Gorn War."
In short, those who have served with the Klingons and have the most experience with the Undine warn the council and are again ignored. It's a level of wilful stupidity that is quite shocking. Whatever evidence the Klingons provided was enough to convince Starfleet's best.
Anyway, I stand by my theory that J'mpok's assault on the Federation was a carefully planned move to benefit both parties. Consider it; the declaration of "war" amounted to no more than border grabs and skirmishes. By Klingon standards, it's utterly trivial, but enough to unite the Empire's hardliners behind J'mpok and push the Federation into a higher state of military readiness... but it means that when the Borg and Undine resurface, Starfleet is already on a war footing. Meanwhile, J'mpok doesn't hesitate to commit Klingon forces and his personal troops, the Honor Guard, to a joint effort against the Borg even while the "war" goes on. J'mpok is playing the political situation masterfully; provoke the Federation enough to ready its formidable military, but do not engage in the sort of conflict that would significantly deplete both sides. And the second the Feds are willing to join forces fully... the "war" is over. It's exactly what one would expect from a veteran warrior who respects Starfleet but is vexed by Federation politics.
I honestly don't think that J'mpok is the cartoon monster often expected. The game's narrative can be read to show a farsighted leader who allies Klingon savagery with keen intellect.
With the Gorn Confederacy defeated, the fact that they have a Gorn representing the Klingon Empire at every significant, diplomatic event is also a break from the norm.
Yes, even though S'Stass has his own agenda for the Gorn
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'