I simply don't agree. I was there during the pre-delta days. There were many more players on, and yes there was some whining, but the fact remains there was a thing called population, and the fights were more fun overal too.
There were only more players on, and the fights were only more "fun"(what a joke) because the skill ceiling was lower then, and thus, you didn't have to actually work for it.
And that is ultimately what It boils down too, people not wanting to WORK for the PRIVILEGE of being able to do well, or last even a second, in PVP.
What PvP needs is what all game content needs: rewards
People don't play PvP anymore because it's not worth the time.
Easy thing for rewards
1 : Give PvP marks for each player defeated or PvP Queue completed
2 : The PvP marks plus dil would apply to a special PvP Rep
3 : The PvP rep would have gear and items specially made for PvP combat
4 : A revamp to places like Ker'rat make it queued arena , and make it a melee so it would not matter which faction you belong to just queue and fight.
5 : Special events for PvP battles that rewards special items only obtainable from doing the PvP event.
^^ finally someone who gets it. FBP, Immunities, and the Invincible trait are hardly the main problems in PvP anymore. It's the over the top damage that bypasses shields and hull resists. One of the main reasons people don't PvP anymore is because they just die in 2 seconds and don't know why. It's more about that then the rewards, since a lot of people play PvP to have fun, not for the rewards (primarily).
Nobody plays PvP for rewards, because the rewards suck.
If the rewards were good, the PvP queues would be stocked full of players who wouldn't care one bit if they die in 2 seconds as long as they get paid in the end.
The PvP mechanics aren't broken. Arena and Capture & Hold work just fine, as far as I know.
The game balance is off. Fixing that is difficult, especially if Cryptic's power creep business model is to be preserved, and might not be worth the effort.
As long as there are players happily (or grumpily, but still actively) playing PvP, there is no big pressure to remove it. No one can accidentally stumble into it and be totally lost, and the few maps there are also probably cost almost no disk space.
A new map doesn't really mean PvP focus yet, but it's certainly considerably more attention than PvP ever had in 4-5 years.
Yep which is why implementing some sort of restrictions on the powers and traits etc that can be used when in a PVP zone is the simplest way to balance PVP without effecting their power creep model.
problem being it's not something Cryptic is equipped to do, and it would be expensive. The condition PvP is in today, is the result of five to six years of basically working to make it less desirable and run off the PvP community. IOW it was an intentional choice, and included getting rid of anyone who actually tried to improve things or deal with said power-creep.
The lacks are visible and telling-ranging from Borticus' inability to comprehend balanced mechanics, to Geko's outright hostility toward it as lead designer (Dishonest statements in a recent P1 interview aside).
what came across in the interview was simply that they don't have the ability even if they had the resources-which, if you dig into the industry, is probably true. a full-table rebalance (say, PvP gear, or split-stat effects as Adjudicatorhawk gave us with Flanking) would require hundreds to thousands of paid man-hours to accomplish, Geko outright rejected scenario-balancing mechanics like BV as being too difficult, which also means leaderboards aren't going to happen. His "idea" was to make an objective map with safe zones for PvE only play. That was his 'ideal' fix for PvP.
Basically Ker'rat, but with no-shoot areas.
The ability, the inclination, even the understanding is completely absent at Cryptic Studios. The MOST we'll see, is a map.
that's where it's at, sorry, the argument was lost some time ago, it's not going to happen.
I completely agree and I also agree that interview was not good.... However we all know a company will pt money into something if they think it will yield money and at the end of the day the combined console market is what around 80mil right now? maybe more and I would say a good 65% of those players expect a game to have a good fun balanced PVP mode at the end of it as that is what the console industry has pushed the last 9 years.
So in short if Cryptic had any sense they would invest in improving the end game PVP content to try and get a small portions of those players as it would be bigger than the PC player base on its own... But this is Cryptic and PWE they take the cheapest and fastest route on everything...
The PvP mechanics aren't broken. Arena and Capture & Hold work just fine, as far as I know.
The game balance is off. Fixing that is difficult, especially if Cryptic's power creep business model is to be preserved, and might not be worth the effort.
As long as there are players happily (or grumpily, but still actively) playing PvP, there is no big pressure to remove it. No one can accidentally stumble into it and be totally lost, and the few maps there are also probably cost almost no disk space.
A new map doesn't really mean PvP focus yet, but it's certainly considerably more attention than PvP ever had in 4-5 years.
Yep which is why implementing some sort of restrictions on the powers and traits etc that can be used when in a PVP zone is the simplest way to balance PVP without effecting their power creep model.
problem being it's not something Cryptic is equipped to do, and it would be expensive. The condition PvP is in today, is the result of five to six years of basically working to make it less desirable and run off the PvP community. IOW it was an intentional choice, and included getting rid of anyone who actually tried to improve things or deal with said power-creep.
The lacks are visible and telling-ranging from Borticus' inability to comprehend balanced mechanics, to Geko's outright hostility toward it as lead designer (Dishonest statements in a recent P1 interview aside).
what came across in the interview was simply that they don't have the ability even if they had the resources-which, if you dig into the industry, is probably true. a full-table rebalance (say, PvP gear, or split-stat effects as Adjudicatorhawk gave us with Flanking) would require hundreds to thousands of paid man-hours to accomplish, Geko outright rejected scenario-balancing mechanics like BV as being too difficult, which also means leaderboards aren't going to happen. His "idea" was to make an objective map with safe zones for PvE only play. That was his 'ideal' fix for PvP.
Basically Ker'rat, but with no-shoot areas.
The ability, the inclination, even the understanding is completely absent at Cryptic Studios. The MOST we'll see, is a map.
that's where it's at, sorry, the argument was lost some time ago, it's not going to happen.
^^ finally someone who gets it. FBP, Immunities, and the Invincible trait are hardly the main problems in PvP anymore. It's the over the top damage that bypasses shields and hull resists. One of the main reasons people don't PvP anymore is because they just die in 2 seconds and don't know why. It's more about that then the rewards, since a lot of people play PvP to have fun, not for the rewards (primarily).
Nobody plays PvP for rewards, because the rewards suck.
If the rewards were good, the PvP queues would be stocked full of players who wouldn't care one bit if they die in 2 seconds as long as they get paid in the end.
This is probably the only reasonable solution I've seen in this thread.
If they do this they might as well make an NPC shooting gallery that give out the same rewards as this does nothing for PVP.
@kelador Exactly, giving PvP better rewards wouldn't do anything for PvP gameplay at all. It would still be incredibly imbalanced like it is now, just like....PvE is when comparing players to NPC's. The only way to truly fix PvP is to do something about balance.
Played SWTOR too a while, another superior game (though probably still has awful space combat). The only difference between me and the other player who had the same set of ultimate pvp gear was -skill- but even then no one was getting 1-shotted through the shield out of nowhere.
-The idea of PVP only gear/ships/sets is idiotic because, within a month or two of the system roll-out, the best PVPers will have already grinded out the best gear, and it will be exactly as it is now, with "new" pvpers getting destroyed by vets due to their better builds/gear.
-Disabling the best skills/traits in PVP is also an idiotic idea, as the people who worked for them WORKED FOR THEM, and have every right to use them.
Which stemms from the lack of wanting to work for being able to play PVP.
Quote above culled to focus on the issue of 'work' to play PvP.
Becoming skilled in PvP does require effort (re: work). This effort is realized through practice with a class, ship, and bridge officer team. In other popular PvP games, this would be called your 'load out'.
Note this effort has nothing to do with grinding for gear, but has everything to do with understanding how to play with a set of tools offered to every player.
Since this is also an MMO, there is an expectation to improve your character over time. This improvement can include new powers and gear, but the influence of these improvements over the core PvP play experience is where game balance can fall apart.
Putting in the effort to be better at a PvP game should be about developing your skill as a player, not who can get the best stuff first.
IMO the simplest fix is to disable ALL traits have NO console mods and limit ships to T1 with mk VIII gear and base faction weapon types ......if everybody has none of the high level **** clogging the game then it will be nothing but a skill test. it may limit choices somewhat , but it will make those that are lvl 60 long time PvP vets be on the same footing as a new lvl 60 with little PvP experience and it'll remove the "i have better gear" pay to win element and wouldn't that , at the end of the day , be a good thing ?
Might be a little over the top, but I'd just take about anything over the gawdawful contemporary system.
When Delta Rising was released there was a mass exodus of quality pvp players. These pvpers had stuck around for a long time waiting for cryptic to fix pvp, but they finally realized it wasn't going to happen and the majority left. Nothing has changed as far as I can see. Cryptic continues to introduce more and more power creep designed to make pve easy for the snowflakes, but this power creep has also really decimated pvp.
"better stuffz" is only half-right. It feels now like it's more who has the most meticulously researched combination of broken, exploitable abilities and gear to utterly stun and kill an unsuspecting player.
So It's not about skill as much as it is about who spends the most time finding some "glitch" and "weak link" to utterly maim the life out of other players. I like the way you can try many different combinations in the game, but they just need fixing. I can live with the "whale" aspect as long as the abilities aren't too insane (if that makes any sense).
Fixing pvp would require an enormous amount of time and effort that cryptic would have trouble monetizing. They would need to go over all the specializations, abilities, traits, and gear and balance them for player vs player combat.
Fixing pvp would require an enormous amount of time and effort that cryptic would have trouble monetizing. They would need to go over all the specializations, abilities, traits, and gear and balance them for player vs player combat.
That's what I said in my original post, and the likelihood of that happening is pretty much non-existent.
Fixing pvp would require an enormous amount of time and effort that cryptic would have trouble monetizing. They would need to go over all the specializations, abilities, traits, and gear and balance them for player vs player combat.
No, they really wouldn't.
All they would have to do is
A. Make tiered PVP based on DPS
B. Make PVP zones where people without all those powers can still do PVP realted things without getting smashed, like GECO suggested
While that could possibly work it also removes the need for pvp players to buy stuff...which could be a financial blunder for cryptic. They want you to buy TRIBBLE and if you turn off all the special powers what incentive is there to buy all the power creep they keep pushing? It's definitely an option, but I don't know how well it would turn out.
Well, It's pretty clear to me that I'll stop playing STO for pvp (powercreep vs powercreep), and just stick with the pve aspect. And not because I suck at it, but because it's dead and no one plays it, except for a very, very small minority of die-hards. It's a simple fact that no argument will change at the moment.
And let's not forget the overwhelming evidence that Cryptic would only suffer financial losses if they would make pvp even half-decent, so why would they be doing it for? Charity? hah. Besides, they have this habit of when trying to fix something, that they might just break it even more.
While that could possibly work it also removes the need for pvp players to buy stuff...which could be a financial blunder for cryptic. They want you to buy **** and if you turn off all the special powers what incentive is there to buy all the power creep they keep pushing? It's definitely an option, but I don't know how well it would turn out.
No it doesn't.
People who WANT to actually PLAY PVP wont be sitting the sage zones, they will be outside the safe zones killing the people on the other team, thus requiring they get better gear.
I'm not sure if I'm having reading comprehension issues right now or if that was poorly written, but I have no idea what you're trying to say.
Comments
I must have hit a sensitive snare somewhere.
Easy thing for rewards
1 : Give PvP marks for each player defeated or PvP Queue completed
2 : The PvP marks plus dil would apply to a special PvP Rep
3 : The PvP rep would have gear and items specially made for PvP combat
4 : A revamp to places like Ker'rat make it queued arena , and make it a melee so it would not matter which faction you belong to just queue and fight.
5 : Special events for PvP battles that rewards special items only obtainable from doing the PvP event.
If the rewards were good, the PvP queues would be stocked full of players who wouldn't care one bit if they die in 2 seconds as long as they get paid in the end.
I completely agree and I also agree that interview was not good.... However we all know a company will pt money into something if they think it will yield money and at the end of the day the combined console market is what around 80mil right now? maybe more and I would say a good 65% of those players expect a game to have a good fun balanced PVP mode at the end of it as that is what the console industry has pushed the last 9 years.
So in short if Cryptic had any sense they would invest in improving the end game PVP content to try and get a small portions of those players as it would be bigger than the PC player base on its own... But this is Cryptic and PWE they take the cheapest and fastest route on everything...
/thread
If they do this they might as well make an NPC shooting gallery that give out the same rewards as this does nothing for PVP.
Exactly, giving PvP better rewards wouldn't do anything for PvP gameplay at all. It would still be incredibly imbalanced like it is now, just like....PvE is when comparing players to NPC's. The only way to truly fix PvP is to do something about balance.
Quote above culled to focus on the issue of 'work' to play PvP.
Becoming skilled in PvP does require effort (re: work). This effort is realized through practice with a class, ship, and bridge officer team. In other popular PvP games, this would be called your 'load out'.
Note this effort has nothing to do with grinding for gear, but has everything to do with understanding how to play with a set of tools offered to every player.
Since this is also an MMO, there is an expectation to improve your character over time. This improvement can include new powers and gear, but the influence of these improvements over the core PvP play experience is where game balance can fall apart.
Putting in the effort to be better at a PvP game should be about developing your skill as a player, not who can get the best stuff first.
-snix
Might be a little over the top, but I'd just take about anything over the gawdawful contemporary system.
So It's not about skill as much as it is about who spends the most time finding some "glitch" and "weak link" to utterly maim the life out of other players. I like the way you can try many different combinations in the game, but they just need fixing. I can live with the "whale" aspect as long as the abilities aren't too insane (if that makes any sense).
That's what I said in my original post, and the likelihood of that happening is pretty much non-existent.
While that could possibly work it also removes the need for pvp players to buy stuff...which could be a financial blunder for cryptic. They want you to buy TRIBBLE and if you turn off all the special powers what incentive is there to buy all the power creep they keep pushing? It's definitely an option, but I don't know how well it would turn out.
And let's not forget the overwhelming evidence that Cryptic would only suffer financial losses if they would make pvp even half-decent, so why would they be doing it for? Charity? hah. Besides, they have this habit of when trying to fix something, that they might just break it even more.
I'm not sure if I'm having reading comprehension issues right now or if that was poorly written, but I have no idea what you're trying to say.