You misunterstand me. I'm not saying it's biologically impossible. I'm saying it wouldn't work, because the Cardassian mind is uniquely Cardassian and no other society can ape that effectively. As I said, discipline and intelligence, not made up physiological differences.
So a species of shapeshifting beings who embrace order, discipline, intelligence, deception, domination, genocide, infiltration, love and loyalty for their goo-family can't impersonate beings who value order, discipline, intelligence, deception, domination, genocide, infiltration, love and loyalty for their family?
If anything, that may be why there was no changelings featured as Cardassians: nobody would have told the difference before and after the impersonation!
And that's excluding the part where they just want to kill as many of them for no other reason, like the Butcher of Gallitep intented to.
I believe you are misremembering your races. It is, in fact, the Bajorans who are inclined towards random acts of aggression. It is the Bajorans - and not the Cardassians - who justify lethal violence by simply saying "He's a Cardassian. That's reason enough."
Except the Bajoran who used this justification got arrested, and called out by another Bajoran.
The Cardassian who used this justification got a funeral with state honors by the Cardassian government.
That's a serious claim - and must be backed up with evidence.
Please provide me with this evidence. A quote from the script where a Cardassian says it, for instance. And, just to make this clear (though I should not have to), a real Cardassian speaking in his or her right mind - not a holodeck illusion, shapeshifter, mirror-universe alternate version, imposter, or victim of mental illness.
I'd suggest you watch "Duet", from Season 1 of DS9. Not sure why you even bother to argue if you haven't seen the series concerning the topic.
And please, no laughable conspiracy theories claiming that all Cardassians in that episode were shapeshifters.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the episode where there's a mentally ill person who admits that he was attempting to deceive people into believing he committed atrocities that he, in fact, did not?
I think it's dishonest in the extreme to try to use that as an example against Cardassians - just as it would be dishonest to use the depiction of Warship Voyager in "Living Witness" to indemnify Starfleet. Both cases are examples of deliberate attempts being made to portray a group negatively by historical revisionism.
And that's excluding the part where they just want to kill as many of them for no other reason, like the Butcher of Gallitep intented to.
I believe you are misremembering your races. It is, in fact, the Bajorans who are inclined towards random acts of aggression. It is the Bajorans - and not the Cardassians - who justify lethal violence by simply saying "He's a Cardassian. That's reason enough."
Except the Bajoran who used this justification got arrested, and called out by another Bajoran.
The Cardassian who used this justification got a funeral with state honors by the Cardassian government.
That's a serious claim - and must be backed up with evidence.
Please provide me with this evidence. A quote from the script where a Cardassian says it, for instance. And, just to make this clear (though I should not have to), a real Cardassian speaking in his or her right mind - not a holodeck illusion, shapeshifter, mirror-universe alternate version, imposter, or victim of mental illness.
Even if I know canon sources won't satisfy you and you'll keep moving the goalposts and not accept the description of the guys who liberated the camp: Gul Darhe'el
"Commander, if you'd been there twelve years ago when we liberated that camp... if you'd seen the things I saw... all those Bajoran bodies, starved, brutalized. You know what Cardassian policy was? Oh, I'm not even talking about the murder, murder was just the end of the fun for them; first came the humiliation! Mothers **** in front of their children, husbands beaten until their wives couldn't recognize them, old people buried alive because they couldn't work anymore!"
As I said before, you seem to have a problem distinguishing between Cardassians and Bajorans. I asked for a direct quote from a Cardassian. That quote is from a Bajoran terrorist.
Both cases are examples of deliberate attempts being made to portray a group negatively by historical revisionism.
Replace "negatively" by "positively" and you get a delicious irony.
Also, Marritza wasn't mentally ill, he knew what he was doing and he had a good reason. He was going to get himself tried and most likely executed to make an example.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the episode where there's a mentally ill person who admits that he was attempting to deceive people into believing he committed atrocities that he, in fact, did not?
Fixed that for you. Marritza had Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, which is not a mental illness.
As I said before, you seem to have a problem distinguishing between Cardassians and Bajorans. I asked for a direct quote from a Cardassian. That quote is from a Bajoran terrorist.
Alright:
From the moment we arrived on Bajor it was clear that we were the superior race, but they couldn't accept that. They wanted to be treated as equals, when they most certainly were not. Militarily, technologically, culturally – we were almost a century ahead of them in every way. We did not choose to be the superior race. Fate handed us that role and it would have been so much easier on everyone if the Bajorans had simply accepted their role. But no... day after day they clustered in their temples and prayed for deliverance and night after night they planted bombs outside of our homes. Pride.. stubborn, unyielding pride. From the servant girl that cleaned my quarters, to the condemned man toiling in a labor camp, to the terrorist skulking through the hills of Dahkur Province... they all wore their pride like some... twisted badge of honor.
[...]
Of course I hated them! I hated everything about them! Their superstitions and their cries for sympathy, their treachery and their lies, their smug superiority and their stiff-necked obstinacy, their earrings, and their broken, wrinkled noses!
[...]
Yes! Yes!! That's right, isn't it?! I knew it. I've always known it. I should've killed every last one of them! I should've turned their planet into a graveyard the likes of which the galaxy had never seen! I should've killed them all.
From the moment we arrived on Bajor it was clear that we were the superior race, but they couldn't accept that. They wanted to be treated as equals, when they most certainly were not. Militarily, technologically, culturally – we were almost a century ahead of them in every way. We did not choose to be the superior race. Fate handed us that role and it would have been so much easier on everyone if the Bajorans had simply accepted their role. But no... day after day they clustered in their temples and prayed for deliverance and night after night they planted bombs outside of our homes. Pride.. stubborn, unyielding pride. From the servant girl that cleaned my quarters, to the condemned man toiling in a labor camp, to the terrorist skulking through the hills of Dahkur Province... they all wore their pride like some... twisted badge of honor.
[...]
Of course I hated them! I hated everything about them! Their superstitions and their cries for sympathy, their treachery and their lies, their smug superiority and their stiff-necked obstinacy, their earrings, and their broken, wrinkled noses!
[...]
Yes! Yes!! That's right, isn't it?! I knew it. I've always known it. I should've killed every last one of them! I should've turned their planet into a graveyard the likes of which the galaxy had never seen! I should've killed them all.
from Dukat himself.
Waltz, S6 of DS9. So there wouldn't be any "@saurializard made it up!"
I'm not even sure what point you're tying to make there.
But I do envy you. I wish I could equate a misunderstanding of/failure to properly read my opponent's argument with a "shift of the goalposts." Never once did I say anything about changelings being incapable of assuming Cardassian form. I specifically used the word 'influence,' as in exerting will or power over a being or event to change outcomes. You failed to understand the language used on two separate occasions. In the future, I would recommend thoroughly reading other individual's posts before replying to them, and if you have questions, to ask them before making assumptions. It is a sign of a disciplined, intelligent mind. It brings us all one step closer to the Cardassian ideal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the episode where there's a mentally ill person who admits that he was attempting to deceive people into believing he committed atrocities that he, in fact, did not?
Fixed that for you. Marritza haddidn't have Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, which is not a mental illness.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the episode where there's a mentally ill person who admits that he was attempting to deceive people into believing he committed atrocities that he, in fact, did not?
Fixed that for you. Marritza haddidn't have Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, which is not a mental illness.
Fixed that for you.
Actually, Marritza did get it. It's actually one of the clues the team uses to deduce his true identity. It was Darhe'el who didn't get it because he was away getting a medal.
I'm not even sure what point you're tying to make there.
But I do envy you. I wish I could equate a misunderstanding of/failure to properly read my opponent's argument with a "shift of the goalposts." Never once did I say anything about changelings being incapable of assuming Cardassian form. I specifically used the word 'influence,' as in exerting will or power over a being or event to change outcomes. You failed to understand the language used on two separate occasions. In the future, I would recommend thoroughly reading other individual's posts before replying to them, and if you have questions, to ask them before making assumptions. It is a sign of a disciplined, intelligent mind. It brings us all one step closer to the Cardassian ideal.
Dukat was right.
You asking "How many changelings did you see impersonating Cardassians?" clearly states that before, you were trying to suggest that Changelings simply couldn't assume Cardassian form.
But I have to admit I made a mistake before and read Kira's quote as Marritza's, thus my impersonating comment.
"Waltz", the episode where Dukat was literally seeing things and talking to people who weren't there and thought the best course of action was marooning himself and Sisko on a barren planet so they could have a friendly chat uninterrupted. Certainly no signs of mental illness there.
"Waltz", the episode where Dukat was literally seeing things and talking to people who weren't there and thought the best course of action was marooning himself and Sisko on a barren planet so they could have a friendly chat uninterrupted. Certainly no signs of mental illness there.
So you're saying that Dukat actually didn't hate Bajorans? That he actually didn't think Cardassians were superior to them?
"Waltz", the episode where Dukat was literally seeing things and talking to people who weren't there and thought the best course of action was marooning himself and Sisko on a barren planet so they could have a friendly chat uninterrupted. Certainly no signs of mental illness there.
"Waltz", the episode where Dukat was literally seeing things and talking to people who weren't there and thought the best course of action was marooning himself and Sisko on a barren planet so they could have a friendly chat uninterrupted. Certainly no signs of mental illness there.
So you're saying that Dukat actually didn't hate Bajorans? That he actually didn't think Cardassians were superior to them?
I looked at the post you quoted and looked at yours. I don't see a relation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the episode where there's a mentally ill person who admits that he was attempting to deceive people into believing he committed atrocities that he, in fact, did not?
Fixed that for you. Marritza haddidn't have Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, which is not a mental illness.
Fixed that for you.
Actually, Marritza did get it. It's actually one of the clues the team uses to deduce his true identity. It was Darhe'el who didn't get it because he was away getting a medal.
I thought Marritza had attracted/faked something that really looked like Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, but wasn't, upon second inspection.
Didn't read the last two pages or so, but wanted to add this:
You live in the Dakotas, where winters are cold, icy, and long. Your next door neighbor, you notice, relatively new to the neighborhood and not quite on firm financial footing, has not been shoveling his sidewalk to clear the snow and ice for pedestrians. Short-term, you know it saves him time and effort because he doesn't have to stand out in the freezing weather, but long-term, this could be financially ruinous if someone, a mailman, perhaps, slips and falls on the ice, on his property, and sues him. In fact, it could destroy his life for years to come.
So, one day, you grab your shovel, you walk over to his sidewalk, and you start shoveling his walkway. Surprised, he comes out to chat, and things seem amicable. You don't want any money, you say (how could you take money from someone struggling?), but when the winter is over, you would like to have some fresh vegetables from the garden he tends out back. Everything seems fine.
Until the next Fall. He's only brought you a few meager onions, a chewed up head of lettuce, and a couple unripen tomatoes. Still, though you're disappointed by the return, you still shovel his sidewalk when winter comes. It's gone beyond a mere "good deed" and has become your DUTY. You feel, rightly or wrongly, that the responsibility is yours.
It's a particularly nasty winter -- wind chills far below zero, ice storms -- but you shovel anyway. Your neighbor chats you up, and because the year has been so difficult, you ask if maybe you could have a few more tomatoes next year. The neighbor's attitude, demeanor changes instantly. He seems more distant and curt, as if you're asking the world from him. No matter -- you continue to shovel.
Over time, the neighbor becomes less friendly, more hostile. One day, some things are missing from your car (you left the doors unlocked), and another time, air has been let out of one of your tires. You can't say for certain, but you have a suspicion it's your neighbor.
The next winter, while you're outside, shoveling the walk, the neighbor calls the police; there is a trespasser on his property. The police come, the neighbor says he never asked you to help, yet you keep trespassing on his property, and, in the summer, you steal from his garden. Suddenly, you're the bad guy, the villain. What started out as a good deed helping out a struggling neighbor has backfired, and for all your time, effort, strength, and intention, the only thing you receive in return is a stern warning from the police, a hostile neighborhood, and nothing more.
No good deed goes unpunished, folks.
Since you didn't feel the strength to read the previous page, I'll provide assistance and repost the analogy I made that is in my opinion much more adequate to this:
That's noble, but that's not what happened to the Bajorans.
A proper analogy would be: You see a kid praying to a God, having a peaceful life, being nice to everyone and greeting you politely.
You, on the other hand, have been praying to another God with your family, and through various hardships, ended with you losing your faith, all your farm, your siblings turning to fight each other and ending up dead, and your parents resorting to become tyrants.
What is the morally sound option?
-You talk to the kid, telling him to be careful, to not take everything as granted while you tell him your story to make sure the point go through, maybe show him examples of what happened, then you leave him be, but maybe occasionally check to see if he's still going well
-You grab the kid, shake him, invade his house, destroy all the family's religious stuff, tell them you're now their boss and they're inferior and they're gonna do what you tell them to do, torture and kill a sibling after he punches you for messing with his family, steal their earnings and damage their house, sleep with another sibling while telling her that if you give her a child and you have to leave, you're gonna abandon him, experiment on them because you feel entitled to, and when you feel they just won't learn, you just plan to kill them all
But we don't know when those Replicators were installed and there is a huge difference between a Replicator and Industrial Replicators. TNG Season 1 took place in 2364 while Terok Nor was giving to the Federation in 2369. So if Cardassians obtained Replicator technology in 2364, then they had 5 years to install it on Terok Nor.
Using thousands of Replicators to create ore would not be feasible, but one Industrial Fabricator could easily accomplish it which is how Replicators could accomplish a post-scarcity society. Also, certain materials like Latinum are not replicatable with 24th Century technology while Gold is replicatable or extremely large deposits of gold have been found to make Gold worthless. There is nothing to indicate Latinum is not replicatable, but it makes no sense to base a currency around something that can be easily manufactured.
The Lonely Among US episode from TNG indicates that replicators is based on transporter technology which uses energy to form the patterns.
You've seen something as fresh and tasty as living meat, but inorganically materialized out of patterns used by our transporters.
The transporter need not pattern your captain back into matter...we'll beam energy only...
So transporters work by converting matter to energy to matter while replicators work by converting energy to matter.
Granted we do not know the timeline of installation of the replicator network. Though I would point out the various feed hoses Obrien had to move and work around when repairing them. Again it seems they take matter and alter the pattern. But they also cannot make even simple life out of them. So beers, yogurts, and anything needing to be alive when it is consumed can't be replicated properly. (This is probably to keep them from using the transporter to fix medical issues and clone people at will. It also has been incredibly inconsistently applied even to transporters. Hence Thomas Riker. And child versions of Picard, Keiko, Guinan, and Ro.) I believe latinum for what ever hand wave is not replicatable. Which is why it is a currency. It can't really be forged it if can't be duplicated. But again there are plenty of reasons to mine and still have replicators. Replicators needing matter is just one. Energy cost would probably be another. I do not know the math off the top of my head but SF Debris did a nice job explaining how inefficient it is to just turn energy to matter. So the power needed to be truly 'post scarcity' is enormous.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
So the fact that Bajor had nice resources the Cardasisns wanted for their own benefit had nothing to do with the situation then?
Nice try to make it look like some lovey dovey peace mission to help the struggling natives reach greatness. Anyone with any sense of humanity or morality can see full well what the Cardasians were all about, regardless of his bad the writing is deemed to be. They were meant to look like a brutal occupying force TRIBBLE the planet for its resources because that is exactly what the writers intended them to be seen as. To argue otherwise is delusional and exposes to people your real world views, or attempts at trolling by being controversial so publicly.
@gardat Personal incredulity is not a valid argument.
Good thing I wasn't arguing anything. I said I couldn't see any connection between capnspanky's post and your response and stated as such. You then said the above and I'm like... ok?
After reading Nabreeki's last comment, my worst fears have been confirmed. He or she really is that crazy.
I mean, if you can actually justify not just the fictional treatment of the Bajorans by the Cardassians and vice versa but also real life's historical atrocities (by clearly stating 'just like in our own history') while complaining about 'terrorism' (which would probably be anyone who resists and fights against such atrocities) then something is really wrong with you.
Only a complete sociopath (and racist for that matter; see the 'superiority' related cr@p) would basically say 'well, if someone broke into your house and manages to keep you hostage for the next forty years, forcing you to perform slave labour and I-don't-know-what, you better accept it cause apparently you're the lesser man'. And, adding to that, proving that you're not the lesser man or species would make you a terrorist.
Seriously, I hope someone's watching you. 'Just like in our own history', we've seen what can happen if people with that way of thinking get away with it or get to power. I seriously hope, for whatever society you live in, that that will never happen if this is truly how you think. Stating such things about fictional races is one thing; your last comment was going way beyond that. It's sickening.
What an outrageous and bizarre outburst.
The cardassians and bajorans are not real. They are fictional and we're written to showcase the best and worst of humanity.
The Cardassians embody all the best in people- they are loyal, earnest, intelligent, wise, patriotic, industrious, organized, cultured, and above all, selfless. They give themselves over entirely to the greater good, the good of others, the good of Cardassia.
The bajorans are dishonest, violent, xenophobic, superstitious, ignorant, untrustworthy, troublesome, vicious, conniving, betraying, quick to anger, unforgiving, and proved willing at the drop of a hat to regress from what good had been made of their benighted world to a vicious system of caste based oppression.
What is enduringly compelling thing about DS9 is that it showed the moral,failings of the federation by having them side with the bad against the good, and to suffer punishment for their wrongdoing. The dominion war.
Watching Star Trek you should try to learn from and emulate the examples of the best that people can be, not the worst.
Going to Syria to join ISIS and act like a bajoran is bad. Serving others selflessly, for the greater good, like a Cardassian is good.
Hint: the outburst (which was, admittedly, an outburst at 4 am in the morning before I went to bed) wasn't over fictional races.
Read my post and Nabreeki's comment on the page before it again if you didn't understand it, or ask for clarification. Come back when you're ready. Or just leave it be as it wasn't directed at you in the first place.
Comments
If anything, that may be why there was no changelings featured as Cardassians: nobody would have told the difference before and after the impersonation!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the episode where there's a mentally ill person who admits that he was attempting to deceive people into believing he committed atrocities that he, in fact, did not?
I think it's dishonest in the extreme to try to use that as an example against Cardassians - just as it would be dishonest to use the depiction of Warship Voyager in "Living Witness" to indemnify Starfleet. Both cases are examples of deliberate attempts being made to portray a group negatively by historical revisionism.
As I said before, you seem to have a problem distinguishing between Cardassians and Bajorans. I asked for a direct quote from a Cardassian. That quote is from a Bajoran terrorist.
Also, Marritza wasn't mentally ill, he knew what he was doing and he had a good reason. He was going to get himself tried and most likely executed to make an example.
Fixed that for you. Marritza had Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, which is not a mental illness.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Waltz, S6 of DS9. So there wouldn't be any "@saurializard made it up!"
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I'm not even sure what point you're tying to make there.
But I do envy you. I wish I could equate a misunderstanding of/failure to properly read my opponent's argument with a "shift of the goalposts." Never once did I say anything about changelings being incapable of assuming Cardassian form. I specifically used the word 'influence,' as in exerting will or power over a being or event to change outcomes. You failed to understand the language used on two separate occasions. In the future, I would recommend thoroughly reading other individual's posts before replying to them, and if you have questions, to ask them before making assumptions. It is a sign of a disciplined, intelligent mind. It brings us all one step closer to the Cardassian ideal.
Dukat was right.
Fixed that for you.
You asking "How many changelings did you see impersonating Cardassians?" clearly states that before, you were trying to suggest that Changelings simply couldn't assume Cardassian form.
But I have to admit I made a mistake before and read Kira's quote as Marritza's, thus my impersonating comment.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
So you're saying that Dukat actually didn't hate Bajorans? That he actually didn't think Cardassians were superior to them?
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I looked at the post you quoted and looked at yours. I don't see a relation.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I thought Marritza had attracted/faked something that really looked like Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, but wasn't, upon second inspection.
Anyone want to go make a chain in front of the ESD doors?
That's noble, but that's not what happened to the Bajorans.
A proper analogy would be: You see a kid praying to a God, having a peaceful life, being nice to everyone and greeting you politely.
You, on the other hand, have been praying to another God with your family, and through various hardships, ended with you losing your faith, all your farm, your siblings turning to fight each other and ending up dead, and your parents resorting to become tyrants.
What is the morally sound option?
-You talk to the kid, telling him to be careful, to not take everything as granted while you tell him your story to make sure the point go through, maybe show him examples of what happened, then you leave him be, but maybe occasionally check to see if he's still going well
-You grab the kid, shake him, invade his house, destroy all the family's religious stuff, tell them you're now their boss and they're inferior and they're gonna do what you tell them to do, torture and kill a sibling after he punches you for messing with his family, steal their earnings and damage their house, sleep with another sibling while telling her that if you give her a child and you have to leave, you're gonna abandon him, experiment on them because you feel entitled to, and when you feel they just won't learn, you just plan to kill them all
Hint: one of them is seriously messed up.
Granted we do not know the timeline of installation of the replicator network. Though I would point out the various feed hoses Obrien had to move and work around when repairing them. Again it seems they take matter and alter the pattern. But they also cannot make even simple life out of them. So beers, yogurts, and anything needing to be alive when it is consumed can't be replicated properly. (This is probably to keep them from using the transporter to fix medical issues and clone people at will. It also has been incredibly inconsistently applied even to transporters. Hence Thomas Riker. And child versions of Picard, Keiko, Guinan, and Ro.) I believe latinum for what ever hand wave is not replicatable. Which is why it is a currency. It can't really be forged it if can't be duplicated. But again there are plenty of reasons to mine and still have replicators. Replicators needing matter is just one. Energy cost would probably be another. I do not know the math off the top of my head but SF Debris did a nice job explaining how inefficient it is to just turn energy to matter. So the power needed to be truly 'post scarcity' is enormous.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Nice try to make it look like some lovey dovey peace mission to help the struggling natives reach greatness.
Anyone with any sense of humanity or morality can see full well what the Cardasians were all about, regardless of his bad the writing is deemed to be. They were meant to look like a brutal occupying force TRIBBLE the planet for its resources because that is exactly what the writers intended them to be seen as.
To argue otherwise is delusional and exposes to people your real world views, or attempts at trolling by being controversial so publicly.
Good thing I wasn't arguing anything. I said I couldn't see any connection between capnspanky's post and your response and stated as such. You then said the above and I'm like... ok?
Hint: the outburst (which was, admittedly, an outburst at 4 am in the morning before I went to bed) wasn't over fictional races.
Read my post and Nabreeki's comment on the page before it again if you didn't understand it, or ask for clarification. Come back when you're ready. Or just leave it be as it wasn't directed at you in the first place.