After reading Nabreeki's last comment, my worst fears have been confirmed. He or she really is that crazy.
I mean, if you can actually justify not just the fictional treatment of the Bajorans by the Cardassians and vice versa but also real life's historical atrocities (by clearly stating 'just like in our own history') while complaining about 'terrorism' (which would probably be anyone who resists and fights against such atrocities) then something is really wrong with you.
Only a complete sociopath (and racist for that matter; see the 'superiority' related cr@p) would basically say 'well, if someone broke into your house and manages to keep you hostage for the next forty years, forcing you to perform slave labour and I-don't-know-what, you better accept it cause apparently you're the lesser man'. And, adding to that, proving that you're not the lesser man or species would make you a terrorist.
Seriously, I hope someone's watching you. 'Just like in our own history', we've seen what can happen if people with that way of thinking get away with it or get to power. I seriously hope, for whatever society you live in, that that will never happen if this is truly how you think. Stating such things about fictional races is one thing; your last comment was going way beyond that. It's sickening.
I just love justifications to enslavement, attempts to genocide and revisionism.
Some Dentals would have made fine Moff Tarkins if they were on Star Wars forums as opposed to Star Trek forums.
"Come on, Tarkin did Alderaanians a favor by destroying their world! Now they've stopped their continuous Great Houses bickering and their Kilik problems are solved!"
Hehe, I simply thought Dental's typical Nietzschean stuff was amusing to read.
I just love justifications to enslavement, attempts to genocide and revisionism.
Some Dentals would have made fine Moff Tarkins if they were on Star Wars forums as opposed to Star Trek forums.
"Come on, Tarkin did Alderaanians a favor by destroying their world! Now they've stopped their continuous Great Houses bickering and their Kilik problems are solved!"
Assuming you live in a first world country, purchase general consumer goods regularly (produce goods, clothes, electronics, etc), I'm glad that you're standing on a soap box while actively, if unknowingly, supporting relative enslavement and exploitation of people in poorer countries to maintain your quality of life, even at a bare minimum.
Yet countries like China, India, Indonesia, and Vietnam, while having millions of people exploited by this system, have created strong, robust economies, growing qualities of life for hundreds of millions of people, and so on, from formerly being the "low man" on the capitalistic totem pole. Makes u think.
Nice try at avoiding answering what i was referring to, but there is a difference between having a country willingly having its own people being exploited to make money and grow strong economically in order to enhance their means of life, and having a foreign party enslave a whole planet with no intention to help them evolve and simply using them for labor, for purely selfish goals and then have them all die and/or killed once they've outlived their usefulness, after several rows of torture. And that's excluding the part where they just want to kill as many of them for no other reason, like the Butcher of Gallitep intented to.
Quick answer: irrelevant. We were discussing your racist comment, not my computer or telephone.
Longer answer:
We could discuss capitalism, or the general economic and political order of free trade that enables the race to the bottom by allowing companies to move their production to third world countries or NIC's, wherever they can suck out most profit while removing those same industries from first world countries where fairer wages would be paid, leaving customers with little choice as most of these devices are needed (yes, needed. You don't get around it anymore).
We could certainly discuss but that's not the topic of this thread so I suggest we do that somewhere else. Or, if you're really eager to do it here, feel free to continue, I don't mind as long as you cut the racist superiority cr@p.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Since you seem to have troubles reading and I really hope you will get this checked as it can be a part of more complicated medical issues, I'll say it again:
What does casually torturing and murdering innocents and aiming for genocide while being rewarded with full state honors for this has to do with trying to "improve" a whole foreign civilization who didn't wish to be improved without having a saying to this?
The Bajorans literally welcomed the Cardassians with open arms, and it wasn't until the Bajoran elite were stripped of their power by the introduction of a true post-scarcity society (thanks to Replicators) that the resistance began. Cardassian civilians and aid workers were targetted by Bajoran terrorists being used and manipulated by the old elite, and hopped up on the idea of being freedom fighters in a society that was finally about to know true freedom. All they did was sabotage Bajors progression into a true member of interstellar society, all because a few old wrinkle-nosed jackasses wanted to keep feeling proud of themselves. And of course, when Cardassia finally tired of spending innocent lives to uplift these moronic hicks, they take their replicators and energy reserves with them, and suddenly Bajor is without the resources and food it has grown used to, because hey, guess what? The Bajorans have no infrastructure because the only thing of note they have ever developed on their own was the most inefficient starship in existence. So they cry to the federation for help, and the federation obliges, in the spirit of unwarranted aggression towards Cardassia.
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
What Replicators? Deep Space 9 was originally built as an ore refining facility in 2346 to 2351. Then there was the Labor Camps to extract the ore and other precious resources. It is possible that the Bajoran Elite were stripped of their power and that is why the Bajorans rebelled, but it wasn't due to a true post-scarcity society caused by Replicators. Replicators must have not been common until just before 2364 (TNG Season 1) and it is likely that it took a few years after Replicators were developed for Cardassians and the rest of the major interstellar powers to get their hands on Replicators. There is absolutely no point in extracting the vast majority of resources with an unwilling labor force if replication technology existed during the Occupation.
Replicators existed on Terak Nor and were the subject of Bajoran tampering and placing of an aphasia virus. Debate on replicators is if they create from energy or if they alter matter to a new form. The fact that the Federation was still mining and the Enterprise herself carried cargo indicates the later was true. So you can have both.
But we don't know when those Replicators were installed and there is a huge difference between a Replicator and Industrial Replicators. TNG Season 1 took place in 2364 while Terok Nor was giving to the Federation in 2369. So if Cardassians obtained Replicator technology in 2364, then they had 5 years to install it on Terok Nor.
Using thousands of Replicators to create ore would not be feasible, but one Industrial Fabricator could easily accomplish it which is how Replicators could accomplish a post-scarcity society. Also, certain materials like Latinum are not replicatable with 24th Century technology while Gold is replicatable or extremely large deposits of gold have been found to make Gold worthless. There is nothing to indicate Latinum is not replicatable, but it makes no sense to base a currency around something that can be easily manufactured.
The Lonely Among US episode from TNG indicates that replicators is based on transporter technology which uses energy to form the patterns.
You've seen something as fresh and tasty as living meat, but inorganically materialized out of patterns used by our transporters.
The transporter need not pattern your captain back into matter...we'll beam energy only...
So transporters work by converting matter to energy to matter while replicators work by converting energy to matter.
Who's to say the Cardassians didn't develop their own replicator before then, or obtain the plans from an easily bought off engineer, and then reverse engineer it to work with their own power systems.
Yes, but you and your consumption are directly supporting that exploitation. But hey, free two-day shipping!
The Cardassians took a paternalistic guardianship over Bajor; as I said, if you know anything about the Hebitian Civilization on Cardassia, the first thing that strikes you is how similar it was to Bajor: deeply spiritual, peaceful, with an emphasis on beauty and pleasing aesthetics. Hebitian society fell into disastrous ruin, and many millions died. Cardassians knew that wasn't the way to prosperity, so they created a new civilization based on ruthless efficiency, higher learning, strong family values, and loyalty to the state (all working for the greater good).
When the Cardassians saw Bajor, they could not help but see the troubling similarities, and they stepped in to build a Bajor in its own image. As I said before: FAST CHANGE IS PAINFUL and CHAOTIC. The industrial revolution, the Arab spring, the fall of Rome, the great leap forward, the cultural revolution, etc, all bear witness to this fact.
People are exploited. Things happen, and some individuals fall by the wayside. There will be some minor scratches and bumps as society is pushed forward, sometimes reluctantly, faster than intended. But we never saw the results of those efforts, because the Bajorans were too happy marching to their own oblivion. The Cardassians are noted in the DS9 Episode "Cardassians" for instructing the Bajorans on their archival system, as Cardassians stressed efficiency and discipline and thus were fanatical and meticulous in their note-taking and record-keeping.
It's actually a really tragic story.
It was still a foreign military occupation, you cannot justify taking someone else's land and then forcing cultural changes onto a people that did not want them. The Cardassians much like the Germans during their WW2 occupation of Poland tried to commit cultural genocide on the very people they occupied.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Who's to say the Cardassians didn't develop their own replicator before then, or obtain the plans from an easily bought off engineer, and then reverse engineer it to work with their own power systems.
The problem is that the first canonical appearance of Replicators that wasn't from some extremely advanced race is TNG Season 1. There is absolutely no mention of when they were created or by who. Before that was Protein Sequencers and Food Synthesizers which are pretty much extremely advanced 3D printers. It is possible that Cardassians developed their own Replicators first, but there is absolutely no proof. All we know is that Replicators were developed between the late 23rd Century and 2364.
Found further evidence that Replicators convert energy to matter. The Visionary episode of DS9 states that the Matter-Energy Conversion Matrix is a component of replicators. Apparently modifying it could turn a replicator into a transporter for small items. Which seems completely pointless since a replicator should be able to create anything that a transporter can transport. So if you can't replicate something, then you can't transport it either due to replicators and transporters work through matter-energy conversions and patterns.
Since you seem to have troubles reading and I really hope you will get this checked as it can be a part of more complicated medical issues, I'll say it again:
What does casually torturing and murdering innocents and aiming for genocide while being rewarded with full state honors for this has to do with trying to "improve" a whole foreign civilization who didn't wish to be improved without having a saying to this?
Nope, addressed your point, just not in the way you would prefer it be framed.
As I said, in any moment of drastic change, people fall by the wayside. The "aiming for genocide" is a bit of a stretch. The occupation of Bajor began, as I said, as a paternalistic guardianship over Bajor which was mutually beneficial. Bajor progressed as a society, and the Cardassians received access to natural resources lacking on their homeworld. It was an excellent fit.
If anything, the Cardassians were naive and did not expect such a violent and hostile reaction to what they -- and others -- saw as a win-win scenario for everyone. Bajoran terrorists did not simply target the occupying government, but in Kira's own admission, butchered Cardassian civilians simply because they were Cardassian, and simply because they were there, on Bajor.
In any society, there are reactionary elements that stand out from cooler, more rational sensibilities. Aamin Marritza is one of those, obviously. He was so taken aback by the thanklessness of the Bajoran terrorists, he could not comprehend it, had a mental breakdown, and applied that label to the population as a whole.
War and battle can lead people to think and do crazy things.
Whether or not Bajor asked to be "improved" is irrelevant; I'm sure the Sioux or Basque or Tibetans didn't ask, either, but they are now part of fairly prosperous countries. Disparities exists, I cannot deny, but inch, by, inch, steps are being taken to remedy this.
Just as a reminder: Marritza is the clerk who was horrified by what Gul Darhe'el did in the labor camp of Gallitep. That's the main part of his character and attempting to twist it into something completely different is revisionism at worst and plain ignorance at best.
As for the Occupation, the whole "paternalistic guardianship" is, if you forgive me the expression "targ dung", the two people, Cardassians and Bajorans managed to coexist, peacefully for a while before the Cardassians decided to be more forceful, annexing the planet.
Then, they decided to ban the Bajoran religion and imprison those who practiced or teach it, like a certain Winn Adami.
Then, they decided that once a Bajoran was affected to a job, they were forbidden from leaving it. Also, child labor was a thing, confirmed by a Cardassian, Dukat, who abolished it.
Then, they started to take some women to sleep with them. And those ladies didn't get the chance to supply their family since they had to leave everything behind them.
Then, there were the kangaroo courts, where the accused was always found guilty, no matter what evidence existed.
Then, they were experimenting on the slav... workers without their consent, even injecting them with viruses for tests, which could cause outbreaks, as with Dr Moset's experiments. These experiments also poisoned the farmland, hence why soil reclamators became very valuable.
Then, they made them build a space station. And the only wage they could get (Ah, yes, I forgot to mention that no Bajoran was getting paid) was from a Ferengi.
Then, when the Cardassians withdrew, they left Bajor in shambles and Cardassian children behind who were adopted by Bajorans who didn't blame them for what the Cardassian government did. Cardassian society left these children with no status.
Also, Bajorans were not welcome on Cardassia Prime, even if they were half-Cardassian hybrids like Tora Ziyal.
Such great examples of a win-win and "paternalistic guardianship"...
The Bajorans suffer the same problem as many a Trek species; planet of hats.
My main character is a Bajoran and my motivation for playing a Bajoran in the first place was/is my refusal to accept the stupid idea that almost every single individual on the damned PLANET shares the same ideology.
To be fair, this isn’t unique to the Bajorans either. For example, pretty much every Klingon we see is portrayed as an honour obsessed warrior. Pretty much every Cardassian we see is portrayed as being obsessed with loyalty to the state. Yes, there are exceptions – but they were always the exception rather than the rule, portrayed as being outcasts from society due to NOT conforming to the norm.
Its ironic really, since Trek general prides itself on diversity (IDIC) – but it doesn’t always portray it terribly well.
So no, I don’t dislike the Bajorans. I dislike the fact that they’re just another example of ‘planet of hats’.
I agree. I have a TOS Vulcan toon, who I play as a Va'Tosh Ka'Taur - not emotional to the extent of, say, the stereotypical Andorian, but one who accepts that her emotions, as well as her logic, is a part of who she is.
As I said, people sometimes fall by the wayside during times of rapid change. It's an unpleasant truth. The problem was that Bajorans simply did not have the foresight or sensibility to see the long term gains in exchange for short term hardship.
I told you Threads on this subject NEVER end well.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Bajorans have enslaved the fashion industry for far too long! As your First Cardassian Galactic President, Butts, I will abolish the slavery of "fashion" and bring about a newer, equal clothing! Free of segregation and khaki; all colors shall be represented in space with equality!
The industrial revolution eventually led to massive increases in overall quality of life and infrastructure, but initially was completely unregulated and led to child labor, mass exploitation, indentured servitude, and massive upheavals in family and community life.
In the long term, labor laws and protections mitigated the initial nightmare of industrialization, but not before some millions of people fell by the wayside
Yes, because child labor, exploitation, servitude and upheavals totally didn't exist before the industrial revolution...
And once again, the countries chose by themselves to go through this. A country didn't decide to invade the other and tell its citizens "OK, now I'm the boss, you do as I say, I don't pay you, I do whatever I want to your relatives, I ban your religion, pollute your land, torture you at will, say how inferior you are to me and you just stay quiet and or die!"
The Bajorans suffer the same problem as many a Trek species; planet of hats.
My main character is a Bajoran and my motivation for playing a Bajoran in the first place was/is my refusal to accept the stupid idea that almost every single individual on the damned PLANET shares the same ideology.
To be fair, this isn’t unique to the Bajorans either. For example, pretty much every Klingon we see is portrayed as an honour obsessed warrior. Pretty much every Cardassian we see is portrayed as being obsessed with loyalty to the state. Yes, there are exceptions – but they were always the exception rather than the rule, portrayed as being outcasts from society due to NOT conforming to the norm.
Its ironic really, since Trek general prides itself on diversity (IDIC) – but it doesn’t always portray it terribly well.
So no, I don’t dislike the Bajorans. I dislike the fact that they’re just another example of ‘planet of hats’.
I agree. I have a TOS Vulcan toon, who I play as a Va'Tosh Ka'Taur - not emotional to the extent of, say, the stereotypical Andorian, but one who accepts that her emotions, as well as her logic, is a part of who she is.
I wrote my "Vulcan" character as a Vulcan/Romulan hybrid who practices Vulcan mental discipline, but doesn't try to suppress emotion.
Hey @nabreeki, I'm curious, where do you live? Like, what country/state/province? You have a very... unique viewpoint. I personally disagree with it, but I also know that there is no point in trying to change your mind. Also, does anyone know if there's a way to disable displaying signatures? That flashing one practically made me have a seizure.
Comments
After reading Nabreeki's last comment, my worst fears have been confirmed. He or she really is that crazy.
I mean, if you can actually justify not just the fictional treatment of the Bajorans by the Cardassians and vice versa but also real life's historical atrocities (by clearly stating 'just like in our own history') while complaining about 'terrorism' (which would probably be anyone who resists and fights against such atrocities) then something is really wrong with you.
Only a complete sociopath (and racist for that matter; see the 'superiority' related cr@p) would basically say 'well, if someone broke into your house and manages to keep you hostage for the next forty years, forcing you to perform slave labour and I-don't-know-what, you better accept it cause apparently you're the lesser man'. And, adding to that, proving that you're not the lesser man or species would make you a terrorist.
Seriously, I hope someone's watching you. 'Just like in our own history', we've seen what can happen if people with that way of thinking get away with it or get to power. I seriously hope, for whatever society you live in, that that will never happen if this is truly how you think. Stating such things about fictional races is one thing; your last comment was going way beyond that. It's sickening.
Hehe, I simply thought Dental's typical Nietzschean stuff was amusing to read.
Longer answer:
We could discuss capitalism, or the general economic and political order of free trade that enables the race to the bottom by allowing companies to move their production to third world countries or NIC's, wherever they can suck out most profit while removing those same industries from first world countries where fairer wages would be paid, leaving customers with little choice as most of these devices are needed (yes, needed. You don't get around it anymore).
We could certainly discuss but that's not the topic of this thread so I suggest we do that somewhere else. Or, if you're really eager to do it here, feel free to continue, I don't mind as long as you cut the racist superiority cr@p.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Doesn't mean it's healthy to justify it though. Or consider whoever fights against it a terrorist and the bad guy.
Since you seem to have troubles reading and I really hope you will get this checked as it can be a part of more complicated medical issues, I'll say it again:
What does casually torturing and murdering innocents and aiming for genocide while being rewarded with full state honors for this has to do with trying to "improve" a whole foreign civilization who didn't wish to be improved without having a saying to this?
But we don't know when those Replicators were installed and there is a huge difference between a Replicator and Industrial Replicators. TNG Season 1 took place in 2364 while Terok Nor was giving to the Federation in 2369. So if Cardassians obtained Replicator technology in 2364, then they had 5 years to install it on Terok Nor.
Using thousands of Replicators to create ore would not be feasible, but one Industrial Fabricator could easily accomplish it which is how Replicators could accomplish a post-scarcity society. Also, certain materials like Latinum are not replicatable with 24th Century technology while Gold is replicatable or extremely large deposits of gold have been found to make Gold worthless. There is nothing to indicate Latinum is not replicatable, but it makes no sense to base a currency around something that can be easily manufactured.
The Lonely Among US episode from TNG indicates that replicators is based on transporter technology which uses energy to form the patterns.
So transporters work by converting matter to energy to matter while replicators work by converting energy to matter.
and a bit whiny
It was still a foreign military occupation, you cannot justify taking someone else's land and then forcing cultural changes onto a people that did not want them. The Cardassians much like the Germans during their WW2 occupation of Poland tried to commit cultural genocide on the very people they occupied.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The problem is that the first canonical appearance of Replicators that wasn't from some extremely advanced race is TNG Season 1. There is absolutely no mention of when they were created or by who. Before that was Protein Sequencers and Food Synthesizers which are pretty much extremely advanced 3D printers. It is possible that Cardassians developed their own Replicators first, but there is absolutely no proof. All we know is that Replicators were developed between the late 23rd Century and 2364.
Found further evidence that Replicators convert energy to matter. The Visionary episode of DS9 states that the Matter-Energy Conversion Matrix is a component of replicators. Apparently modifying it could turn a replicator into a transporter for small items. Which seems completely pointless since a replicator should be able to create anything that a transporter can transport. So if you can't replicate something, then you can't transport it either due to replicators and transporters work through matter-energy conversions and patterns.
As for the Occupation, the whole "paternalistic guardianship" is, if you forgive me the expression "targ dung", the two people, Cardassians and Bajorans managed to coexist, peacefully for a while before the Cardassians decided to be more forceful, annexing the planet.
Then, they decided to ban the Bajoran religion and imprison those who practiced or teach it, like a certain Winn Adami.
Then, they decided that once a Bajoran was affected to a job, they were forbidden from leaving it. Also, child labor was a thing, confirmed by a Cardassian, Dukat, who abolished it.
Then, they started to take some women to sleep with them. And those ladies didn't get the chance to supply their family since they had to leave everything behind them.
Then, there were the kangaroo courts, where the accused was always found guilty, no matter what evidence existed.
Then, they were experimenting on the slav... workers without their consent, even injecting them with viruses for tests, which could cause outbreaks, as with Dr Moset's experiments. These experiments also poisoned the farmland, hence why soil reclamators became very valuable.
Then, they made them build a space station. And the only wage they could get (Ah, yes, I forgot to mention that no Bajoran was getting paid) was from a Ferengi.
Then, when the Cardassians withdrew, they left Bajor in shambles and Cardassian children behind who were adopted by Bajorans who didn't blame them for what the Cardassian government did. Cardassian society left these children with no status.
Also, Bajorans were not welcome on Cardassia Prime, even if they were half-Cardassian hybrids like Tora Ziyal.
Such great examples of a win-win and "paternalistic guardianship"...
^ this exactly and one reason I think DS9 sucked balls.
You dislike an entire show, a show which is objectively Best Trek, because a group in it has traits that are portrayed negatively?
I agree. I have a TOS Vulcan toon, who I play as a Va'Tosh Ka'Taur - not emotional to the extent of, say, the stereotypical Andorian, but one who accepts that her emotions, as well as her logic, is a part of who she is.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Vote Butts/Druk 2409
And once again, the countries chose by themselves to go through this. A country didn't decide to invade the other and tell its citizens "OK, now I'm the boss, you do as I say, I don't pay you, I do whatever I want to your relatives, I ban your religion, pollute your land, torture you at will, say how inferior you are to me and you just stay quiet and or die!"
My character Tsin'xing