It takes a near Black Hole level gravity well to disrupt Trek Warp Drives, a level of power that I don't think the Imperials can generate...
They can...
. They're powerful enough to keep an entire fleet trapped.
A fleet using Star Wars hyperdrives, yes.
If it was actually creating the Gravity Well of a black hole - then you wouldn't even see the ship. The light from the stars in the background would be distorted. And ships (and fighters) in the vicinity would get attracted and sucked in.
What ever these things are doing, they are not creating gravity TRIBBLE similar to black holes. Maybe they do recreate the effect a black hole has on hyperspace, that's something we can't know because we don't have a concept of hyperspace (as it pertains to Star Wars.) But that doesn't mean it would do the same for subspace.
The real problem Star Wars brings to the table is scale. They could land a ridicilous number of ground troups with heavy weaponry. It doesn'T matter if the Star Destroyers blow up 5 minutes later or never - at this point, it gets problematic. Even if Star Trek ship weapons can stun from orbit and lay waste to a planetary surface if needed - it's not so great if your civilian population and your troops are mixed into this. Since Starfleet never seems to have invested in decent body armor (other than in STO, where we have personal shields and body armor), even primitive slug throwers in this mass could cause a lot of problems. Leading to a grueling ground campaign.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It takes a near Black Hole level gravity well to disrupt Trek Warp Drives, a level of power that I don't think the Imperials can generate...
They can...
. They're powerful enough to keep an entire fleet trapped.
A fleet using Star Wars hyperdrives, yes.
If it was actually creating the Gravity Well of a black hole - then you wouldn't even see the ship. The light from the stars in the background would be distorted. And ships (and fighters) in the vicinity would get attracted and sucked in.
What ever these things are doing, they are not creating gravity **** similar to black holes. Maybe they do recreate the effect a black hole has on hyperspace, that's something we can't know because we don't have a concept of hyperspace (as it pertains to Star Wars.) But that doesn't mean it would do the same for subspace.
That's not how gravity in Star Trek or Star Wars works though. People keep making the mistake of looking for clues based on real physics not the space magic of a fantasy world. A world where sound travels in space, light based weapons can go faster than light, and singularities create alternate realities.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
(...)
The real problem Star Wars brings to the table is scale. They could land a ridicilous number of ground troups with heavy weaponry. It doesn'T matter if the Star Destroyers blow up 5 minutes later or never - at this point, it gets problematic. Even if Star Trek ship weapons can stun from orbit and lay waste to a planetary surface if needed - it's not so great if your civilian population and your troops are mixed into this. Since Starfleet never seems to have invested in decent body armor (other than in STO, where we have personal shields and body armor), even primitive slug throwers in this mass could cause a lot of problems. Leading to a grueling ground campaign.
We never saw what a large scale invasion in Star Trek looks like. Klingons would likely also prefer to conquer on the ground, yet they never overran the Federation. My theory is, due to the orbital firepower of Star Trek ships, a planet would probably have to surrender once orbital defenses are gone, but if we actually extrapolate and play the Star Wars-esque mass ground invasion we have plenty of civil defense installation like powerful shield generators and bunker networks and when it comes to "vehicle combat" my theory is that a type 8 shuttle outclasses most kinds of tanks you could employ, ships of the runabout class already carry photon torpedoes which would probably lay waste to mass infantry or even imperial walkers. I strongly doubt a Federation world would send mass redshirts with hand phasers against the enemy
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
On the other hand, in the Kelvin Timeline, the Imperial troops would land unopposed - neither Earth nor Qo'noS herself appear to even have orbital defenses.
On the other hand, in the Kelvin Timeline, the Imperial troops would land unopposed - neither Earth nor Qo'noS herself appear to even have orbital defenses.
They didn't in the main one either. Mars had some perimeter drones but later Borg and the Xindi and Breen walked right in unopposed.
and when it comes to "vehicle combat" my theory is that a type 8 shuttle outclasses most kinds of tanks you could employ, ships of the runabout class already carry photon torpedoes which would probably lay waste to mass infantry or even imperial walkers. I strongly doubt a Federation world would send mass redshirts with hand phasers against the enemy
I doubt the walkers would be unprotected. TIEs are more maneuverable than most shuttlecraft. Though both TIE/In and Type 8s are made of paper.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
On the other hand, in the Kelvin Timeline, the Imperial troops would land unopposed - neither Earth nor Qo'noS herself appear to even have orbital defenses.
Ships seem to be fairly uncommon, relatively - monitoring stations, on the other hand, and picket posts seem to far outnumber those in Star Wars in Trek.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
On the other hand, in the Kelvin Timeline, the Imperial troops would land unopposed - neither Earth nor Qo'noS herself appear to even have orbital defenses.
Qo'noS may not have had orbital defenses, but it did have 'fast response' units of ships and commandos to deal with any landing force...
It takes a near Black Hole level gravity well to disrupt Trek Warp Drives, a level of power that I don't think the Imperials can generate...
They can...
. They're powerful enough to keep an entire fleet trapped.
A fleet using Star Wars hyperdrives, yes.
If it was actually creating the Gravity Well of a black hole - then you wouldn't even see the ship. The light from the stars in the background would be distorted. And ships (and fighters) in the vicinity would get attracted and sucked in.
What ever these things are doing, they are not creating gravity **** similar to black holes. Maybe they do recreate the effect a black hole has on hyperspace, that's something we can't know because we don't have a concept of hyperspace (as it pertains to Star Wars.) But that doesn't mean it would do the same for subspace.
Besides which, do we know it's a black hole and not, say, a planet or an asteroid? (The obvious argument of 'any black hole is gravitationally indistinguishable from a sphere of equal mass' notwithstanding - clearly we're discussing the big ones. .)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Yeah, there's nothing that indicates that Interdictors actually can create distortions of the magnitude required for stopping a single ship with warp drive. And in SW, anything with mass can stop hyperdrive. Heck the Death Stars were so big that they'd act as short range interdictors by sheer mass.
It takes a near Black Hole level gravity well to disrupt Trek Warp Drives, a level of power that I don't think the Imperials can generate...
They can...
. They're powerful enough to keep an entire fleet trapped.
A fleet using Star Wars hyperdrives, yes.
If it was actually creating the Gravity Well of a black hole - then you wouldn't even see the ship. The light from the stars in the background would be distorted. And ships (and fighters) in the vicinity would get attracted and sucked in.
What ever these things are doing, they are not creating gravity **** similar to black holes. Maybe they do recreate the effect a black hole has on hyperspace, that's something we can't know because we don't have a concept of hyperspace (as it pertains to Star Wars.) But that doesn't mean it would do the same for subspace.
That's not how gravity in Star Trek or Star Wars works though. People keep making the mistake of looking for clues based on real physics not the space magic of a fantasy world. A world where sound travels in space, light based weapons can go faster than light, and singularities create alternate realities.
But then we cannot extrapolate much. Subspace and Hyperspace might be exactly the same, totally different, somewhat similar.
You can just make up your own rule for how the space magic interacts. Star Trek is using yellow magic, and Star Wars is using violet magic. Maybe Star Wras Turbolasers fly right through Star Trek shields, and Star Trek transporters beam through Star Wars shields. Who knows? Only the writer. Stuff to extraoplate from is non-existent.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Turbolasers don't fly right through ST shields (unless they overwhelm them through sheer energy output), because of how those shields work and what turbolaser projectiles are. As for transporters... seeing as they're energy-based, I'm inclined to believe that ray shields would be adequate to block them - but then, maybe you'd need particle shielding after all. (The difficulty is made even greater by the fact that Star Wars has never been consistent in its portrayal of ray shields versus particle shields, or even how shields in general behave...)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Why, in a thread discussing the Constellation-Class' warp drive, are you guys now starting a Trek v Wars debate that has been discussed a million times over on this forum (and by the very same people here, too)?
As I understand it, the more nacelles a ship has, the more stable its warp field, which means it can go to greater warp speeds, but it needs an even number (I.e. Symmetrical) to balance the field on either side of the ship, although this probably wouldn't apply to ships with an asymmetric design like the Breen.
Well, also, the Federation apparently started using nacelles where each nacelle actually contained two warp coils, and could be used to create a stable warp field even with one nacelle. Also there have been a few 3-nacelle designs. But presumably those designs used six coils.
The nacelles generate a field of "subspace" (the same region that subspace radio works in) around the ship. In said "subspace" the value of C (light speed) is astronomically higher, so that the effects of travelling say, 1/2 C in subspace = 512*C in "our" space.
Mucking with the field some (original transwarp theories, what the Traveller did to Enterprise-D) can cause the "mathematics" of warp drive to change (such as when they went from the warp factor cubed = light speed equivalent TOS scale to logarithmic curve of TNG. Different field construction = different values of C around ship = different values of speed equivalencies...
Roddenberry, in an effort to "decanonize" the Franz Joseph Designs, unilaterally declared that nacelles had to work in pairs. And of course, once Rodenberry passed, TPTB slipped in the Galaxy-X to "recanonize" the possibility of odd-nacelle designs.
Though one theory I vaguely recall seeing is that the center nacelle on the Gal-X isn't part of the propulsion system, it's a "warp power plant" stuck in a nacelle body so that the ship can generate the warp power necessary to transmit to the phasers (because phasers run off of warp power as per TMP), especially the "phaser lance"... This was cited to explain how the Gal-X still retained functionality while staying within Roddenberry's restrictions...
Which, incidentally, is the basis one of my arguments that ST will beat SW. While SW "leaves" normal space to go to hyperspace, ST brings "hyperspace" to them, and has figured out how to see through the differences (advanced sensors) so they can zip around faster than the enemies can track peppering them with the death of a million paper cuts...
1. Define "subspace" in Star Trek terms. I don't know that there was ever a consistent explanation of what subspace actually is, but I'll stick with Memory Alpha which states:
"Subspace is an integral part of the space-time continuum, distinct, yet coexistent with normal space. Subspace and normal space are confluenced together. However, in some regions an interfold layer forms between the two realms." -- http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace
And:
"A subspace distortion, subspace disturbance, or subspace deformation is a warp in the fabric of space. Subspace distortions could be caused by spacecraft utilizing warp drive, or by other, more exotic phenomenon." -- http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace_distortion
Based on my reading and understanding of Star Trek warp drives, they are relatively consistent with the theory for the Alcubierre drive which warps space in such a way that a ship is riding the spacetime fabric like a surfer rides a wave. They do NOT create subspace fields. They do, however, interact with subspace as an effect and we know from descriptions of the Omega particle that the destruction of subspace will render normal space incapable of forming a warp field.
2. The explanation for the Gal-X third nacelle is that it is supposed to generate additional power for the phaser lance. However, if it's a warp nacelle it is still generating a warp field and therefore must be interacting with the other warp nacelles. If it's not a warp nacelle, and is not generating a warp field, then there's no reason for it to be a nacelle. So yes, it breaks the "rule".
Now I have to watch First Contact again so I can see if they could see anything out of the windows of the Phoenix while her warp drive was engaged. (Part of Alcubierre-White warp theory is that the warp bubble is causally disconnected from the rest of the universe while in operation, and I can't see any way Cochrane could have overcome that limitation with the available resources. If warp drive works in accordance with that theory, the view should have been pretty much blank until the bubble was disrupted.)
Now I have to watch First Contact again so I can see if they could see anything out of the windows of the Phoenix while her warp drive was engaged. (Part of Alcubierre-White warp theory is that the warp bubble is causally disconnected from the rest of the universe while in operation, and I can't see any way Cochrane could have overcome that limitation with the available resources. If warp drive works in accordance with that theory, the view should have been pretty much blank until the bubble was disrupted.)
Now I have to watch First Contact again so I can see if they could see anything out of the windows of the Phoenix while her warp drive was engaged. (Part of Alcubierre-White warp theory is that the warp bubble is causally disconnected from the rest of the universe while in operation, and I can't see any way Cochrane could have overcome that limitation with the available resources. If warp drive works in accordance with that theory, the view should have been pretty much blank until the bubble was disrupted.)
It's Star Trek. TNG constantly broke that rule.
I'd have to assume, if they're using Alcubierre-White warp, that what appear to be "portholes" are in fact sophisticated holographic display screens which show a corrected view of what you would see, if you were still in normal space. Not much of a reach for TNG, after all.
Now I have to watch First Contact again so I can see if they could see anything out of the windows of the Phoenix while her warp drive was engaged. (Part of Alcubierre-White warp theory is that the warp bubble is causally disconnected from the rest of the universe while in operation, and I can't see any way Cochrane could have overcome that limitation with the available resources. If warp drive works in accordance with that theory, the view should have been pretty much blank until the bubble was disrupted.)
It's Star Trek. TNG constantly broke that rule.
I'd have to assume, if they're using Alcubierre-White warp, that what appear to be "portholes" are in fact sophisticated holographic display screens which show a corrected view of what you would see, if you were still in normal space. Not much of a reach for TNG, after all.
Except they repeatedly said they were 'transparent aluminium' windows. And that still doesn't explain why the same effects are seen in ENT, when holographic technology hasn't even been developed yet.
The real explanation is the Art Department probably thought it would look too boring for space to be a black void at warp.
Also, if Star Trek followed this rule at all, we wouldn't see any of the starships while they were at warp from any distance outside the area of the warp field.
It takes a near Black Hole level gravity well to disrupt Trek Warp Drives, a level of power that I don't think the Imperials can generate...
They can...
They're powerful enough to keep an entire fleet trapped.
If I remember right the SW Interdictors were actually relatively limited in their usage... at least during the Thrawn trilogy. The gravity wells functioned more like tractor beams and had a narrow area of effect and range. They were only effective when you knew exactly where a ship was going to travel, which is easier in SW because of hyperspace lanes.
Eh, but this was their legends portrayal... so who knows how the details will be tweaked in the new canon, afterall they already removed the limit on using hyperdrives in a planets gravity well (happened once in Clone Wars and again in Ep. VII).
As for the Constellation classes four nacelles... the old Roddenberry rules for ship design were proposed for kind of dubious reasons and have been routinely ignored over the years. I'd say the most likely reason for the use of four nacelles was simply to imply a sense of improved speed. Everything else is just going to be fans jumping through hoops to try and justify technobabble.
So... this is what I meant by stream... sort of, I am not that great at making animated giffs, still... I wanted to try.
As you can see, I drew it with a breach (not on purpose)... anyways, the idea was that the nacelles help direct the field around the ship while at work... additionally: Previously I had noted that the nacelles provide (in conjunction) a variant field coupled with the deflector to turn the ship in to a polarity reaction pushing/pulling ship forward.
I am not too great with this as my memory is kind of hazy right now...
<|>< . . . <z^>< . . . <zX^>< <( (..) )> oO(There's always a bigger Fish in the sea.)
It takes a near Black Hole level gravity well to disrupt Trek Warp Drives, a level of power that I don't think the Imperials can generate...
They can...
They're powerful enough to keep an entire fleet trapped.
If I remember right the SW Interdictors were actually relatively limited in their usage... at least during the Thrawn trilogy. The gravity wells functioned more like tractor beams and had a narrow area of effect and range. They were only effective when you knew exactly where a ship was going to travel, which is easier in SW because of hyperspace lanes.
Eh, but this was their legends portrayal... so who knows how the details will be tweaked in the new canon, afterall they already removed the limit on using hyperdrives in a planets gravity well (happened once in Clone Wars and again in Ep. VII).
I've never read any EU work. I was referring to Endor where the entire Rebel fleet was trapped.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So... this is what I meant by stream... sort of, I am not that great at making animated giffs, still... I wanted to try.
As you can see, I drew it with a breach (not on purpose)... anyways, the idea was that the nacelles help direct the field around the ship while at work... additionally: Previously I had noted that the nacelles provide (in conjunction) a variant field coupled with the deflector to turn the ship in to a polarity reaction pushing/pulling ship forward.
I am not too great with this as my memory is kind of hazy right now...
As I said over the page, that's not how the warp drive works. At all. What you have illustrated, is the quantum slipstream effect (which is created by a starship's navigational deflector, not the nacelles) not how a Cochrane-drive warps space infront and behind the ship...
[Edit to add] Reposting, as This is what a warp field looks like... Note the differences in distance between the points of reference: Compressed innthe front, expanded in the back...
I think maybe I was not clear... the nacelles ALSO function a warp field refinement. The interaction with the deflector + nacelles are ALSO there to create opposing (or aiding) fields of electro-plasma wave for motion. An earlier drawing of mine: illustrates the field
and
The diagram you shown, does show simularities... clearly the affect is shown to have impact on nacelles + forward affect... the waves are AIDING in that picture...
<|>< . . . <z^>< . . . <zX^>< <( (..) )> oO(There's always a bigger Fish in the sea.)
the image overlaps, fields shown are symetrical, and also newton physics (every reaction has equal opposite reaction) Energy field is radiating...
EDIT: The pulse through the center also provides radiance in conjunction with nacelles for thrust... yet the warp-field geometry appears like slipstream but is not visible.
<|>< . . . <z^>< . . . <zX^>< <( (..) )> oO(There's always a bigger Fish in the sea.)
The three stages in the center are early propulsion methods. Stage 1 turns on, stage 2 on, stage 1 off, stage 3 on, stage 2 off... stage 3 off... cycle starts (this would be the blue rings) the plasma in the early nacelles remains consant in early mode1s.. but by NX-01 the plasma is a mixtured ratio that is cycled. Interesting to note, most of the plasma mixture is based on spliting water to ionization.
<|>< . . . <z^>< . . . <zX^>< <( (..) )> oO(There's always a bigger Fish in the sea.)
The concept behind Alcubierre's theory was that general relativity places a limit on how quickly something with mass can move through space - but places no limits on how quickly space itself can contract or expand. Using A-W warp (I can't keep typing out the full name, I have other things to do today), you contract the space in front of your bubble of normal "flat" space, and expand the space behind, leaving your bubble sort of "surfing" the spatial distortion. (That's how you collect a radioactive wavefront, incidentally - the contracted space in front acts as if it had enormous gravity, drawing the bubble forward, and also pulling in any particles or small masses near its path.)
If our Trek ships use a variant on A-W warp, then the nacelles don't provide "thrust" as such - the field itself handles that. One is left with the assumption that the nacelles are used to shape the field around the ship, making maneuvering with such a drive even possible.
(If it's not A-W warp, of course, then all bets are off, and they can work any way the writers say they work...)
The concept behind Alcubierre's theory was that general relativity places a limit on how quickly something with mass can move through space - but places no limits on how quickly space itself can contract or expand. Using A-W warp (I can't keep typing out the full name, I have other things to do today), you contract the space in front of your bubble of normal "flat" space, and expand the space behind, leaving your bubble sort of "surfing" the spatial distortion. (That's how you collect a radioactive wavefront, incidentally - the contracted space in front acts as if it had enormous gravity, drawing the bubble forward, and also pulling in any particles or small masses near its path.)
If our Trek ships use a variant on A-W warp, then the nacelles don't provide "thrust" as such - the field itself handles that. One is left with the assumption that the nacelles are used to shape the field around the ship, making maneuvering with such a drive even possible.
(If it's not A-W warp, of course, then all bets are off, and they can work any way the writers say they work...)
Yes, I wasn't suggesting that the nacelles had combustion or burned fuel... rather that the nacelles shape the warp field to surround the ship in greater efficiency. Additionally, they create a plasma interaction with a central pulse... and by the time a deflector was developed more effectively, the central field created the field in broadcast. I don't really know on that... but the early stuff, maybe? Anyways, thanks for the discussion... I had been working on role-play diagrams for sometime... Yet.. the terminology can be daunting for me at times.
The nacelles would be cycled plasma routed from an antimatter reactor of course... because Ionized Hydrogen is probably ionized from the reaction with antimatter freeing up electrons to route power to the ship, send the newly ionized deuterium(hydrogen 1 isotope) to the nacelles where it is convected back and forth... the Deflector would be rings of trapped plasma to which are combined with electrodes that develop desired wave-lengths through circuit alteration with meters on known behavior between plasma and circuits. measured for sensors or emit for deflector beams
Infact I seem to forget things and find myself right back at the start.
<|>< . . . <z^>< . . . <zX^>< <( (..) )> oO(There's always a bigger Fish in the sea.)
the image overlaps, fields shown are symetrical, and also newton physics (every reaction has equal opposite reaction) Energy field is radiating...
EDIT: The pulse through the center also provides radiance in conjunction with nacelles for thrust... yet the warp-field geometry appears like slipstream but is not visible.[/quote]
The three stages in the center are early propulsion methods. Stage 1 turns on, stage 2 on, stage 1 off, stage 3 on, stage 2 off... stage 3 off... cycle starts (this would be the blue rings) the plasma in the early nacelles remains consant in early mode1s.. but by NX-01 the plasma is a mixtured ratio that is cycled. Interesting to note, most of the plasma mixture is based on spliting water to ionization.
The concept behind Alcubierre's theory was that general relativity places a limit on how quickly something with mass can move through space - but places no limits on how quickly space itself can contract or expand. Using A-W warp (I can't keep typing out the full name, I have other things to do today), you contract the space in front of your bubble of normal "flat" space, and expand the space behind, leaving your bubble sort of "surfing" the spatial distortion. (That's how you collect a radioactive wavefront, incidentally - the contracted space in front acts as if it had enormous gravity, drawing the bubble forward, and also pulling in any particles or small masses near its path.)
If our Trek ships use a variant on A-W warp, then the nacelles don't provide "thrust" as such - the field itself handles that. One is left with the assumption that the nacelles are used to shape the field around the ship, making maneuvering with such a drive even possible.
(If it's not A-W warp, of course, then all bets are off, and they can work any way the writers say they work...)
Yes, I wasn't suggesting that the nacelles had combustion or burned fuel... rather that the nacelles shape the warp field to surround the ship in greater efficiency. Additionally, they create a plasma interaction with a central pulse... and by the time a deflector was developed more effectively, the central field created the field in broadcast. I don't really know on that... but the early stuff, maybe? Anyways, thanks for the discussion... I had been working on role-play diagrams for sometime... Yet.. the terminology can be daunting for me at times.
The nacelles would be cycled plasma routed from an antimatter reactor of course... because Ionized Hydrogen is probably ionized from the reaction with antimatter freeing up electrons to route power to the ship, send the newly ionized deuterium(hydrogen 1 isotope) to the nacelles where it is convected back and forth... the Deflector would be rings of trapped plasma to which are combined with electrodes that develop desired wave-lengths through circuit alteration with meters on known behavior between plasma and circuits. measured for sensors or emit for deflector beams
Infact I seem to forget things and find myself right back at the start.
The TNG technical manual explains how the warp drive works and what the nacelles do... I guess what I'm trying to say (and I don't mean to come across as harsh) is that what you've written, is simply theory-crafting, and while 'interesting' in the abstract, and if you were to be writing your own sci-fi FTL drive, is irrelevant with regards Star Trek FTL, in so much as there are existing explanations of how/why the Cochrane Drive works...
Comments
If it was actually creating the Gravity Well of a black hole - then you wouldn't even see the ship. The light from the stars in the background would be distorted. And ships (and fighters) in the vicinity would get attracted and sucked in.
What ever these things are doing, they are not creating gravity TRIBBLE similar to black holes. Maybe they do recreate the effect a black hole has on hyperspace, that's something we can't know because we don't have a concept of hyperspace (as it pertains to Star Wars.) But that doesn't mean it would do the same for subspace.
The real problem Star Wars brings to the table is scale. They could land a ridicilous number of ground troups with heavy weaponry. It doesn'T matter if the Star Destroyers blow up 5 minutes later or never - at this point, it gets problematic. Even if Star Trek ship weapons can stun from orbit and lay waste to a planetary surface if needed - it's not so great if your civilian population and your troops are mixed into this. Since Starfleet never seems to have invested in decent body armor (other than in STO, where we have personal shields and body armor), even primitive slug throwers in this mass could cause a lot of problems. Leading to a grueling ground campaign.
That's not how gravity in Star Trek or Star Wars works though. People keep making the mistake of looking for clues based on real physics not the space magic of a fantasy world. A world where sound travels in space, light based weapons can go faster than light, and singularities create alternate realities.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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We never saw what a large scale invasion in Star Trek looks like. Klingons would likely also prefer to conquer on the ground, yet they never overran the Federation. My theory is, due to the orbital firepower of Star Trek ships, a planet would probably have to surrender once orbital defenses are gone, but if we actually extrapolate and play the Star Wars-esque mass ground invasion we have plenty of civil defense installation like powerful shield generators and bunker networks and when it comes to "vehicle combat" my theory is that a type 8 shuttle outclasses most kinds of tanks you could employ, ships of the runabout class already carry photon torpedoes which would probably lay waste to mass infantry or even imperial walkers. I strongly doubt a Federation world would send mass redshirts with hand phasers against the enemy
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They didn't in the main one either. Mars had some perimeter drones but later Borg and the Xindi and Breen walked right in unopposed.
I doubt the walkers would be unprotected. TIEs are more maneuverable than most shuttlecraft. Though both TIE/In and Type 8s are made of paper.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Ships seem to be fairly uncommon, relatively - monitoring stations, on the other hand, and picket posts seem to far outnumber those in Star Wars in Trek.
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Besides which, do we know it's a black hole and not, say, a planet or an asteroid? (The obvious argument of 'any black hole is gravitationally indistinguishable from a sphere of equal mass' notwithstanding - clearly we're discussing the big ones.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
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But then we cannot extrapolate much. Subspace and Hyperspace might be exactly the same, totally different, somewhat similar.
You can just make up your own rule for how the space magic interacts. Star Trek is using yellow magic, and Star Wars is using violet magic. Maybe Star Wras Turbolasers fly right through Star Trek shields, and Star Trek transporters beam through Star Wars shields. Who knows? Only the writer. Stuff to extraoplate from is non-existent.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
As I understand it, the more nacelles a ship has, the more stable its warp field, which means it can go to greater warp speeds, but it needs an even number (I.e. Symmetrical) to balance the field on either side of the ship, although this probably wouldn't apply to ships with an asymmetric design like the Breen.
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1. Define "subspace" in Star Trek terms. I don't know that there was ever a consistent explanation of what subspace actually is, but I'll stick with Memory Alpha which states:
"Subspace is an integral part of the space-time continuum, distinct, yet coexistent with normal space. Subspace and normal space are confluenced together. However, in some regions an interfold layer forms between the two realms." -- http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace
And:
"A subspace distortion, subspace disturbance, or subspace deformation is a warp in the fabric of space. Subspace distortions could be caused by spacecraft utilizing warp drive, or by other, more exotic phenomenon." -- http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace_distortion
Based on my reading and understanding of Star Trek warp drives, they are relatively consistent with the theory for the Alcubierre drive which warps space in such a way that a ship is riding the spacetime fabric like a surfer rides a wave. They do NOT create subspace fields. They do, however, interact with subspace as an effect and we know from descriptions of the Omega particle that the destruction of subspace will render normal space incapable of forming a warp field.
2. The explanation for the Gal-X third nacelle is that it is supposed to generate additional power for the phaser lance. However, if it's a warp nacelle it is still generating a warp field and therefore must be interacting with the other warp nacelles. If it's not a warp nacelle, and is not generating a warp field, then there's no reason for it to be a nacelle. So yes, it breaks the "rule".
It's Star Trek. TNG constantly broke that rule.
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Except they repeatedly said they were 'transparent aluminium' windows. And that still doesn't explain why the same effects are seen in ENT, when holographic technology hasn't even been developed yet.
The real explanation is the Art Department probably thought it would look too boring for space to be a black void at warp.
Also, if Star Trek followed this rule at all, we wouldn't see any of the starships while they were at warp from any distance outside the area of the warp field.
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If I remember right the SW Interdictors were actually relatively limited in their usage... at least during the Thrawn trilogy. The gravity wells functioned more like tractor beams and had a narrow area of effect and range. They were only effective when you knew exactly where a ship was going to travel, which is easier in SW because of hyperspace lanes.
Eh, but this was their legends portrayal... so who knows how the details will be tweaked in the new canon, afterall they already removed the limit on using hyperdrives in a planets gravity well (happened once in Clone Wars and again in Ep. VII).
As for the Constellation classes four nacelles... the old Roddenberry rules for ship design were proposed for kind of dubious reasons and have been routinely ignored over the years. I'd say the most likely reason for the use of four nacelles was simply to imply a sense of improved speed. Everything else is just going to be fans jumping through hoops to try and justify technobabble.
As you can see, I drew it with a breach (not on purpose)... anyways, the idea was that the nacelles help direct the field around the ship while at work... additionally: Previously I had noted that the nacelles provide (in conjunction) a variant field coupled with the deflector to turn the ship in to a polarity reaction pushing/pulling ship forward.
I am not too great with this as my memory is kind of hazy right now...
I've never read any EU work. I was referring to Endor where the entire Rebel fleet was trapped.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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[Edit to add] Reposting, as This is what a warp field looks like... Note the differences in distance between the points of reference: Compressed innthe front, expanded in the back...
and
The diagram you shown, does show simularities... clearly the affect is shown to have impact on nacelles + forward affect... the waves are AIDING in that picture...
the image overlaps, fields shown are symetrical, and also newton physics (every reaction has equal opposite reaction) Energy field is radiating...
EDIT: The pulse through the center also provides radiance in conjunction with nacelles for thrust... yet the warp-field geometry appears like slipstream but is not visible.
The three stages in the center are early propulsion methods. Stage 1 turns on, stage 2 on, stage 1 off, stage 3 on, stage 2 off... stage 3 off... cycle starts (this would be the blue rings) the plasma in the early nacelles remains consant in early mode1s.. but by NX-01 the plasma is a mixtured ratio that is cycled. Interesting to note, most of the plasma mixture is based on spliting water to ionization.
If our Trek ships use a variant on A-W warp, then the nacelles don't provide "thrust" as such - the field itself handles that. One is left with the assumption that the nacelles are used to shape the field around the ship, making maneuvering with such a drive even possible.
(If it's not A-W warp, of course, then all bets are off, and they can work any way the writers say they work...)
Yes, I wasn't suggesting that the nacelles had combustion or burned fuel... rather that the nacelles shape the warp field to surround the ship in greater efficiency. Additionally, they create a plasma interaction with a central pulse... and by the time a deflector was developed more effectively, the central field created the field in broadcast. I don't really know on that... but the early stuff, maybe? Anyways, thanks for the discussion... I had been working on role-play diagrams for sometime... Yet.. the terminology can be daunting for me at times.
The nacelles would be cycled plasma routed from an antimatter reactor of course... because Ionized Hydrogen is probably ionized from the reaction with antimatter freeing up electrons to route power to the ship, send the newly ionized deuterium(hydrogen 1 isotope) to the nacelles where it is convected back and forth... the Deflector would be rings of trapped plasma to which are combined with electrodes that develop desired wave-lengths through circuit alteration with meters on known behavior between plasma and circuits. measured for sensors or emit for deflector beams
Infact I seem to forget things and find myself right back at the start.
the image overlaps, fields shown are symetrical, and also newton physics (every reaction has equal opposite reaction) Energy field is radiating...
EDIT: The pulse through the center also provides radiance in conjunction with nacelles for thrust... yet the warp-field geometry appears like slipstream but is not visible.[/quote]
The TNG technical manual explains how the warp drive works and what the nacelles do... I guess what I'm trying to say (and I don't mean to come across as harsh) is that what you've written, is simply theory-crafting, and while 'interesting' in the abstract, and if you were to be writing your own sci-fi FTL drive, is irrelevant with regards Star Trek FTL, in so much as there are existing explanations of how/why the Cochrane Drive works...