unexplored

sybob · June 2016

i was thinking. wouldnt it be good if you can go to unexplored areas like they did before with the clusters but put them at the edge of the maps

plus was thinking that you should be able to explore every planet and its system

kodachikuno · June 2016

supposedly they have a prototype for a new exploration system but we've been given 0 details beyond that

scrooge69 · June 2016

they announced this seas to be EXPLORATION themed remember?

jbmaverick · June 2016

While I understand a lot of people want the game to be more "Trek" by being more about exploration, I don't really understand why people seem to think exploration should be the major focus of a game like this. Games are supposed to be entertaining. Real exploration is pretty boring, especially in space where there's a lot of empty area between things. There's really only a handful of things any MMO like this can do with exploration: you're attacked by a hostile alien species, you're contacted by a friendly/neutral alien species precipitating first contact, or you find an interesting planet/anomaly/etc. and you scan it. And this is pretty much exactly what the old system was.The old exploration system is about as much as I would expect of a game that isn't procedurally generated because whatever you're "exploring" has to either be a prebuilt system or pseudo-randomly generated, and both of those are going to lose their appeal quickly (which is partly why the old exploration system was removed).

It's fine if exploration gets readded, but I really feel if it was the core of a season it would get a lot of initial praise from the die-hard Trek fans followed by a LOT of bored players leaving until the next season.

[Deleted User] · June 2016

jbmaverick wrote: »

While I understand a lot of people want the game to be more "Trek" by being more about exploration, I don't really understand why people seem to think exploration should be the major focus of a game like this. Games are supposed to be entertaining. Real exploration is pretty boring, especially in space where there's a lot of empty area between things. There's really only a handful of things any MMO like this can do with exploration: you're attacked by a hostile alien species, you're contacted by a friendly/neutral alien species precipitating first contact, or you find an interesting planet/anomaly/etc. and you scan it. And this is pretty much exactly what the old system was.The old exploration system is about as much as I would expect of a game that isn't procedurally generated because whatever you're "exploring" has to either be a prebuilt system or pseudo-randomly generated, and both of those are going to lose their appeal quickly (which is partly why the old exploration system was removed).

It's fine if exploration gets readded, but I really feel if it was the core of a season it would get a lot of initial praise from the die-hard Trek fans followed by a LOT of bored players leaving until the next season.

BLah blah blah. Yawn. That was too boring to read.

A good exploration system is the #1 Thing I would be excited about being in this game

breadandcircuses · June 2016

somtaawkhar wrote: »

scrooge69 wrote: »

they announced this seas to be EXPLORATION themed remember?

And we are exploring, the final frontier of TIME.

TIME is a very serious issue.

Badum tssss...

legendarylycan · June 2016

jbmaverick wrote: »

Real exploration is pretty boring

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

bltrrn · June 2016

darthmeow504 wrote: »

Part of it comes down to pacing. For example, I loved TMP and the slow, contemplative science based story it told. I love the immersion in this game that doing simple, even slightly tedious tasks that are in-character for a Starfleet officer provide. I also know I'm somewhat of a minority in this. Cryptic has to balance the desires of players like us who like the "high science fiction" approach at least sometimes and those who don't even like reading mission dialogue and just want to jump into the fly and shoot part. What we have to do is keep on with the gentle polite pressure and make sure they know we really do want this and we will make it worth their time and effort.

Some people prefer to hold the line, others like to look for other lines to hold. The needed approach of which you speak, is already present is Star Trek. In STO, it would be *mostly* enhance by players, who RP with content. Situation example: compulsive Dev. Lab Scientist has an argument with MACO jock, over filling out paperwork. Various situations can be had with the other factions, even the ones that haven't been released yet.

jbmaverick · June 2016

theunknown0#4185 wrote: »

BLah blah blah. Yawn. That was too boring to read.

A good exploration system is the #1 Thing I would be excited about being in this game

If a simple dialogue is so boring to you, I can only imagine how you would react to an exploration system that expects you to talk to NPCs for an extended period to initiate first contact rather than shoot something.

shadowfang240 wrote: »

jbmaverick wrote: »

Real exploration is pretty boring

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

The potential discovery of something new is enough to get some people to want to explore. However, the actual act of exploration is filled with a lot of misfires and all-out failure to find anything. Simple example, back when naval vessels were the primary means of exploration, imagine what a routine day would have been. A whole lot of standard manual labor they would have done on a ship in any event, and otherwise sitting around waiting to see if you actually DO find something new. There would be the occasional hardship such as storms or lack of food and water, but considering they're going where few if any have gone previously, they wouldn't have experienced much else, and I'm pretty sure that could be classified as "boring."

People can be driven to explore for other reasons as well, such as expanded wealth by finding new trade partners or commodities or shipping lanes. In terms of science, exploration could mean improving the human condition. Some people are simply carrying out a mission given to them by others and may not themselves find it terribly interesting. But it still gets done. So no, my initial statement was not a "flat-out lie."

My main point was that "true" exploration in the manner of Trek isn't going to happen in a game not designed from the ground up for it, and wouldn't be a terribly interesting draw for new players and casual fans. Exploration in a game like this means some form of randomly-generated event with minimal searching for it to begin with, and at that point are you really "exploring?" How long before the "randomness" starts to get samey? Before you start boiling down the experience into simple categories because you've seen them all before, and all that's really changing is the wallpaper?

kodachikuno · June 2016

shadowfang240 wrote: »

jbmaverick wrote: »

Real exploration is pretty boring

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

ok cram yourself in a tiny wooden boat with about 50 people that don't bathe and cant swim then wind-power your way across an ocean, reach your destination, and tell me how 'interesting' it was

darakoss · June 2016

Cryptic said exploration is in the works......

[Deleted User] · June 2016

jbmaverick wrote: »

theunknown0#4185 wrote: »

BLah blah blah. Yawn. That was too boring to read.

A good exploration system is the #1 Thing I would be excited about being in this game

If a simple dialogue is so boring to you, I can only imagine how you would react to an exploration system that expects you to talk to NPCs for an extended period to initiate first contact rather than shoot something.

shadowfang240 wrote: »

jbmaverick wrote: »

Real exploration is pretty boring

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

The potential discovery of something new is enough to get some people to want to explore. However, the actual act of exploration is filled with a lot of misfires and all-out failure to find anything. Simple example, back when naval vessels were the primary means of exploration, imagine what a routine day would have been. A whole lot of standard manual labor they would have done on a ship in any event, and otherwise sitting around waiting to see if you actually DO find something new. There would be the occasional hardship such as storms or lack of food and water, but considering they're going where few if any have gone previously, they wouldn't have experienced much else, and I'm pretty sure that could be classified as "boring."

People can be driven to explore for other reasons as well, such as expanded wealth by finding new trade partners or commodities or shipping lanes. In terms of science, exploration could mean improving the human condition. Some people are simply carrying out a mission given to them by others and may not themselves find it terribly interesting. But it still gets done. So no, my initial statement was not a "flat-out lie."

My main point was that "true" exploration in the manner of Trek isn't going to happen in a game not designed from the ground up for it, and wouldn't be a terribly interesting draw for new players and casual fans. Exploration in a game like this means some form of randomly-generated event with minimal searching for it to begin with, and at that point are you really "exploring?" How long before the "randomness" starts to get samey? Before you start boiling down the experience into simple categories because you've seen them all before, and all that's really changing is the wallpaper?

.
Well let me put it this way. Your opinion is asinine.

jbmaverick · June 2016

theunknown0#4185 wrote: »

jbmaverick wrote: »

theunknown0#4185 wrote: »

BLah blah blah. Yawn. That was too boring to read.

A good exploration system is the #1 Thing I would be excited about being in this game

If a simple dialogue is so boring to you, I can only imagine how you would react to an exploration system that expects you to talk to NPCs for an extended period to initiate first contact rather than shoot something.

shadowfang240 wrote: »

jbmaverick wrote: »

Real exploration is pretty boring

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

The potential discovery of something new is enough to get some people to want to explore. However, the actual act of exploration is filled with a lot of misfires and all-out failure to find anything. Simple example, back when naval vessels were the primary means of exploration, imagine what a routine day would have been. A whole lot of standard manual labor they would have done on a ship in any event, and otherwise sitting around waiting to see if you actually DO find something new. There would be the occasional hardship such as storms or lack of food and water, but considering they're going where few if any have gone previously, they wouldn't have experienced much else, and I'm pretty sure that could be classified as "boring."

People can be driven to explore for other reasons as well, such as expanded wealth by finding new trade partners or commodities or shipping lanes. In terms of science, exploration could mean improving the human condition. Some people are simply carrying out a mission given to them by others and may not themselves find it terribly interesting. But it still gets done. So no, my initial statement was not a "flat-out lie."

My main point was that "true" exploration in the manner of Trek isn't going to happen in a game not designed from the ground up for it, and wouldn't be a terribly interesting draw for new players and casual fans. Exploration in a game like this means some form of randomly-generated event with minimal searching for it to begin with, and at that point are you really "exploring?" How long before the "randomness" starts to get samey? Before you start boiling down the experience into simple categories because you've seen them all before, and all that's really changing is the wallpaper?

.
Well let me put it this way. Your opinion is asinine.

I believe I've clearly stated my opinion and made my argument out of solid logic. So far all you've done is insult me, and your opinion doesn't seem to have any merit at all. Why don't you actually say why you're excited for an exploration system and what you expect of it so I might actually know where you're coming from, rather than having to make assumptions?

Also, to clarify: I am not against exploration being added. I just don't think there's any way Cryptic could make it expansive enough to be the central feature of an entire season.

sybob · June 2016

all good points. got another idea. what about what they did in bridge commander and pilot the ship from within it.

legendarylycan · June 2016

already been asked dozens of times and the answer hasn't changed - not possible without extensive. lengthy and expensive modifications to the game engine

bluedarky · June 2016

darthmeow504 wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

(Piloting from the bridge) has already been asked dozens of times and the answer hasn't changed - not possible without extensive. lengthy and expensive modifications to the game engine

Not necessarily, at least not for sector space. The game already keeps track of our progress on the overmap and there is really not terribly much to do out there except watch the DOFF menu for new missions to pop up. I would imagine it's not too difficult to set a destination on the map and have the computer plot your way there while you're inside your ship doing other things. It's just a matter of a line from point A to point B and a calculation of how long it will take to arrive. If you leave the interior to go back to sector space, it places your ship where it would be on that line in the amount of travel time taken. No I'm not a programmer and I can't say that the actual code is like, but we already have an autopilot function from the map that can run in the background while we do other things like check mail, assign DOFF missions, chat, etc. This would simply mean we ONLY run the map movement function instead of actually animating the ship and sector space, and the subroutine determines where we materialize as the ship when we exit the interior. From the bridge, you'd merely see a generic warp starfield effect as simple as a basic animated .gif.

Your character exists as a ship OR a person and doesn't track across the two (when they seem too it's a cheat where they just force your ship to spawn at the correct point), whilst they could enact a timer like system for bridge warping what would happen if you switched to sector space early? It's unlikely they have the team or processing power to work out where your ship would be if you stopped then on the map, and dropping you at the destination would be way too exploitable, so you'd more than likely be left back where you started.

jaturnley · June 2016

bluedarky wrote: »

darthmeow504 wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

(Piloting from the bridge) has already been asked dozens of times and the answer hasn't changed - not possible without extensive. lengthy and expensive modifications to the game engine

Not necessarily, at least not for sector space. The game already keeps track of our progress on the overmap and there is really not terribly much to do out there except watch the DOFF menu for new missions to pop up. I would imagine it's not too difficult to set a destination on the map and have the computer plot your way there while you're inside your ship doing other things. It's just a matter of a line from point A to point B and a calculation of how long it will take to arrive. If you leave the interior to go back to sector space, it places your ship where it would be on that line in the amount of travel time taken. No I'm not a programmer and I can't say that the actual code is like, but we already have an autopilot function from the map that can run in the background while we do other things like check mail, assign DOFF missions, chat, etc. This would simply mean we ONLY run the map movement function instead of actually animating the ship and sector space, and the subroutine determines where we materialize as the ship when we exit the interior. From the bridge, you'd merely see a generic warp starfield effect as simple as a basic animated .gif.

Your character exists as a ship OR a person and doesn't track across the two (when they seem too it's a cheat where they just force your ship to spawn at the correct point), whilst they could enact a timer like system for bridge warping what would happen if you switched to sector space early? It's unlikely they have the team or processing power to work out where your ship would be if you stopped then on the map, and dropping you at the destination would be way too exploitable, so you'd more than likely be left back where you started.

To be more precise, your character is a ship AND a person, not or.

Because they are one and the same, you can't be both in sector space and on a ground map at the same time, for any purpose whatsoever.

As far as exploration, we stopped doing that once we realized that the Vulcans were wrong: there is NOT Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, there are actually only about a dozen or so things going on in the universe in a dozen or so types of places. Once we beamed down and scanned a few million objects, investigated a few million ships destroyed by a few million rogue intelligence bureaus, and hailed a million planets who needed us to replicate some basic supplies for them, we realized there was no point in exploration anymore.

jbmaverick · June 2016

jaturnley wrote: »

bluedarky wrote: »

darthmeow504 wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

(Piloting from the bridge) has already been asked dozens of times and the answer hasn't changed - not possible without extensive. lengthy and expensive modifications to the game engine

Not necessarily, at least not for sector space. The game already keeps track of our progress on the overmap and there is really not terribly much to do out there except watch the DOFF menu for new missions to pop up. I would imagine it's not too difficult to set a destination on the map and have the computer plot your way there while you're inside your ship doing other things. It's just a matter of a line from point A to point B and a calculation of how long it will take to arrive. If you leave the interior to go back to sector space, it places your ship where it would be on that line in the amount of travel time taken. No I'm not a programmer and I can't say that the actual code is like, but we already have an autopilot function from the map that can run in the background while we do other things like check mail, assign DOFF missions, chat, etc. This would simply mean we ONLY run the map movement function instead of actually animating the ship and sector space, and the subroutine determines where we materialize as the ship when we exit the interior. From the bridge, you'd merely see a generic warp starfield effect as simple as a basic animated .gif.

Your character exists as a ship OR a person and doesn't track across the two (when they seem too it's a cheat where they just force your ship to spawn at the correct point), whilst they could enact a timer like system for bridge warping what would happen if you switched to sector space early? It's unlikely they have the team or processing power to work out where your ship would be if you stopped then on the map, and dropping you at the destination would be way too exploitable, so you'd more than likely be left back where you started.

To be more precise, your character is a ship AND a person, not or. Because they are one and the same, you can't be both in sector space and on a ground map at the same time, for any purpose whatsoever.

There is an exception to this, but it was kind of a one-off and not particularly functional. During the Featured Episode "Uneasy Allies" your personal ship is visible on the viewscreen while your ground character is speaking with the central figure of that episode. However, the dev responsible for that said it took some tricky coding for that to happen, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be particularly useful for the inverse.

markhawkman · June 2016

somtaawkhar wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

This is a terrible argument, and ignores the fact a large part, and indeed, most of all exploring across time was not done "because it was interesting" but because people wanted some resource, and went to go find it, regardless of if the trip there was fun or interesting or not.

Exactly! Geological surveys are among the most boring things ever! Very few people do them just to learn something. Most are done by companies that are trying to find natural resources to extract.

[Deleted User] · June 2016

No one goes to Risa or New Romulus those are such dead zones. LOL

legendarylycan · June 2016

markhawkman wrote: »

somtaawkhar wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

This is a terrible argument, and ignores the fact a large part, and indeed, most of all exploring across time was not done "because it was interesting" but because people wanted some resource, and went to go find it, regardless of if the trip there was fun or interesting or not.

Exactly! Geological surveys are among the most boring things ever! Very few people do them just to learn something. Most are done by companies that are trying to find natural resources to extract.

geological surveys are NOT exploration, they are SURVEYS

things like spelunking, diving and hiking - THAT is exploration, and i have NEVER heard of anyone being bored during those activities

jbmaverick · June 2016

shadowfang240 wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

somtaawkhar wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

if people actually felt that way, we'd still be living in caves...since we aren't, that's a flat-out lie

This is a terrible argument, and ignores the fact a large part, and indeed, most of all exploring across time was not done "because it was interesting" but because people wanted some resource, and went to go find it, regardless of if the trip there was fun or interesting or not.

Exactly! Geological surveys are among the most boring things ever! Very few people do them just to learn something. Most are done by companies that are trying to find natural resources to extract.

geological surveys are NOT exploration, they are SURVEYS

things like spelunking, diving and hiking - THAT is exploration, and i have NEVER heard of anyone being bored during those activities

Exploration is defined as "traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it" or "thorough analysis of a subject or theme." Survey is defined as "to look carefully and thoroughly at someone or something, especially so as to appraise them" or "examine and record the area and features of an area of land so as to construct a map, plan, or description." Those words are just about interchangeable, they just have different connotations.

Excitement is subjective. I would probably be quite bored during the majority of a hike, broken only by when I got to some spectacular view or point of interest. Nature just isn't something that holds my interest. Others find it endlessly fascinating. You know why you've never heard of anyone being bored during those activities? Because you've likely only heard from people who actually enjoy going on those activities.

And once again, try exploring the ocean in an old naval vessel. Weeks on end with nothing to see but water, if you aren't getting tossed around by a storm. I would argue the old sailors were more explorers than your average hiker, since the hikers are probably going where lots of people have been but the sailors were treading completely new and unknown paths. And I'm pretty sure sailors got bored quite a bit during long voyages.

jbmaverick · June 2016

darthmeow504 wrote: »

bluedarky wrote: »

darthmeow504 wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

(Piloting from the bridge) has already been asked dozens of times and the answer hasn't changed - not possible without extensive. lengthy and expensive modifications to the game engine

Not necessarily, at least not for sector space. The game already keeps track of our progress on the overmap and there is really not terribly much to do out there except watch the DOFF menu for new missions to pop up. I would imagine it's not too difficult to set a destination on the map and have the computer plot your way there while you're inside your ship doing other things. It's just a matter of a line from point A to point B and a calculation of how long it will take to arrive. If you leave the interior to go back to sector space, it places your ship where it would be on that line in the amount of travel time taken. No I'm not a programmer and I can't say that the actual code is like, but we already have an autopilot function from the map that can run in the background while we do other things like check mail, assign DOFF missions, chat, etc. This would simply mean we ONLY run the map movement function instead of actually animating the ship and sector space, and the subroutine determines where we materialize as the ship when we exit the interior. From the bridge, you'd merely see a generic warp starfield effect as simple as a basic animated .gif.

Your character exists as a ship OR a person and doesn't track across the two (when they seem too it's a cheat where they just force your ship to spawn at the correct point)

That is EXACTLY what I'm suggesting. You set an automatic pilot destination and then are free to wander your ship interior while an internal timer runs in the background. Once it's done, you're free to exit the interior at your destination. If you exit early, it's a simple equation based on your ship's maximum speed and it spawns your ship back in sector space at the appropriate point. How is that difficult?

I'd have to go searching for it, but a dev basically said no to this specific suggestion quite some time ago. Not that it couldn't be done, but that it wouldn't for certain reasons that I do not remember.

Edit: I'm probably not going to be able to find it, I think it's from long before the transition to the arcgames forums, so everything shows up as an Archived Post. My guess is that the reasoning was based on a few factors:

First and foremost, there's pretty much nothing to do on your ship, so this wouldn't really be all that different from simply using sector space travel as it currently exists. The travel time theoretically doesn't change so what's the difference between setting course in sector space then just alt-tabbing the game or walking away from the keyboard for a minute, and beaming to your bridge, setting course, then alt-tabbing/walking away? In fact, bridge travel would likely take longer because that's an extra map transition or two. One could argue that they could just add more things to do on the ship, which is its own issue people have been asking about for a while, to which the response is usually another "no."

Also, what if you want to change course? This wouldn't be a super-critical issue, I imagine, but it's something to consider.

Next problem, and I think I do remember this one being in the discussion, what if you're en route and you're picked up for a queued mission like Crystalline? Your position wasn't tracked, just time to destination, so would they have a way to keep track of time remaining or would the timer have to start over again. This would even be a potential issue just by changing which part of your ship you're in, or leave your ship interior mid-transit. It could probably be overcome, but it's a consideration.

Then there's the social consideration. Admittedly this is a week argument as this game has very limited social interaction in general, but while you're on your bridge you're in your own little map, so you have no access to a local or zone chat shared with other players. There's the argument for inviting other players to your ship to interact with them, but then where do those other players end up when they leave? They weren't in their ship traveling anywhere (or maybe they were, which complicates the matter further), should they arrive at your destination or return to their point of origin(or if they were travelling, how is that handled)? Would the simple act of being in a ship in transit have repercussions in terms of the game's code?

Finally, most duty officer missions are dependent on your location in sector space. If you're on your bridge you do not exist in sector space, and as such do not have access to those missions. They could perhaps keep access to the missions you had when you first went to your bridge (in fact, I think they already do? Been a long time since I went to my bridge for anything), but they couldn't update them if they're not tracking your position, and that's key to the argument because, again, you do not exist in sector space while you are on your bridge.

Every one of these problems could likely be overcome independently, but all together it's a lot of work for very little gain.

protoneous · June 2016

Edit: Post Deleted ~ Image as posted gave access to all albums (but didn't in preview). Darn.

jbmaverick · June 2016

protoneous wrote: »

Edited to remove deleted image post.

(having fun on New Romulus with friends in my reconnaissance science vessel)

Wow, how old is that image? I remember running into that particular bug a handful of times when the game was first released, pity ship weapons and abilities didn't make the transfer, would have loved to see what a ship could do in ground combat.

unexplored

Comments