I also remember Geko saying something in the podcast along the lines of not wanting to put to many episodes on Tribble because they didn't want to spoil to much of the story.
Didn't they do the same thing back in the days when LoR was released? I am not sure if I mix up things but wasn't there any expansion where they did this on purpose to not to spoilder the whole story line.
I think the six episodes complaint was that after those stories our characters would begin moving through different time periods and therefore away from the TOS setting everyone is looking forward to.
I suppose this is valid but I also understand what they are doing with the story and by the way when was it ever reasonable to assume they could right twenty masterful pieces of TOS content from a show that barely lasted that number of episodes? The source material is lacking.
79 episodes is not barely 20.
P.S.A. hey kids... once upon a time TV shows lasted about 50minutes with 10 of commercials, and a season was closer to 30 episodes. Let that sink in for a bit.
Originally TV Shows were mostly made in 26 Episode blocks per Season, so as to have exactly enough to cover Half of a 52 week year.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I think the six episodes complaint was that after those stories our characters would begin moving through different time periods and therefore away from the TOS setting everyone is looking forward to.
I suppose this is valid but I also understand what they are doing with the story and by the way when was it ever reasonable to assume they could right twenty masterful pieces of TOS content from a show that barely lasted that number of episodes? The source material is lacking.
79 episodes is not barely 20.
P.S.A. hey kids... once upon a time TV shows lasted about 50minutes with 10 of commercials, and a season was closer to 30 episodes. Let that sink in for a bit.
I know right, would love if some of the newer shows I watch had longer seasons, commercials aren't much of an issue for me, only see them on Hulu and CBS All Access.
even if you watch them like that, the shows themselves have less actual time in them because its been trimmed down to allow for 15-20min of commercials now. 1/4 of an hour long episode is now commercial time and not show.
I hate that TV shows made now-a-days are only 42-44 minutes long so they can add more commercials.
That krap started sneaking in back in the late '80's.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yeah, because this thread has TOS-warp... which is faster than Voyagers Warp 9,975
If their writers would have watched TOS (specifically the episode 'That which survives') they could have prevented a big flaw in their maths. And they could have saved Voyager 74 years, 11 months and a few days (at least according to their premise). I wish I'd be more precise.
Yeah, because this thread has TOS-warp... which is faster than Voyagers Warp 9,975
If their writers would have watched TOS (specifically the episode 'That which survives') they could have prevented a big flaw in their maths. And they could have saved Voyager 74 years, 11 months and a few days (at least according to their premise). I wish I'd be more precise.
That's a retcon. Gene Roddenberry didn't want ever-faster warp speeds so for the TNG series bible (which the Technical Manual is partly based on) he specified the new warp scale to go from warp 1 = c up to warp 9 = 1516c, and asymptotic to warp 10 after that.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yeah, because this thread has TOS-warp... which is faster than Voyagers Warp 9,975
If their writers would have watched TOS (specifically the episode 'That which survives') they could have prevented a big flaw in their maths. And they could have saved Voyager 74 years, 11 months and a few days (at least according to their premise). I wish I'd be more precise.
That's a retcon. Gene Roddenberry didn't want ever-faster warp speeds so for the TNG series bible (which the Technical Manual is partly based on) he specified the new warp scale to go from warp 1 = c up to warp 9 = 1516c, and asymptotic to warp 10 after that.
No it's not. In that particular Episode the Enterprise went 990 LY with TOS Warp 8.4 in ~11 hours. According to that formula, Voyager would have arrived at the badlands in approximately four weeks, travelling at TOS' Warp 8,4!
The error lies in a writing-staff not properly proofreading and adjusting their script to match the actual source-material. I know the Warp-scale was tweaked, but they just fu**ed it up.
Of course it's a nitpick, and it doesn't change the (awfully bad) narrative of Voyager.
Also we have like June to go through before we hit the Release Month for Agents of Yesterday anyway since that's in July.
The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
No it's not. In that particular Episode the Enterprise went 990 LY with TOS Warp 8.4 in ~11 hours. According to that formula, Voyager would have arrived at the badlands in approximately four weeks, travelling at TOS' Warp 8,4!
The error lies in a writing-staff not properly proofreading and adjusting their script to match the actual source-material. I know the Warp-scale was tweaked, but they just fu**ed it up.
Of course it's a nitpick, and it doesn't change the (awfully bad) narrative of Voyager.
And this one inconsistency is what ticks you off? On average there are at least 3 inconsistencies per episode throughout every incarnation... that happens when you use writers from all over the place, they glance (at best) at what came before, maybe read some sort of "Show Bible" and that's about it... even that "cool" TOS Speed was never seen again... also not during TNG, not during DS9 and of course not during Voyager...
Of course it's a nitpick, and it doesn't change the (awfully bad) narrative of Voyager.
And this one inconsistency is what ticks you off? On average there are at least 3 inconsistencies per episode throughout every incarnation...
As I said, Voyager has an awfully badly written narrative in general; Be it the plots or be it the characters. It's not about that one inconsistency in particular (it's just the one that actually makes the premise of Voyager laughable at its very start), it's about the incredible BOATLOAD of inconsistencies that Voyager delivered from episode to episode, always on the exact same level. There was no worst or best episode IMO... they're equally not up to the standards of TOS or TNG. The only Thing Voyager kinda got right is that Voyager's journey was a 'Trek through space' rather than sitting between a planet and a wormhole. So I'll give Voyager that it at least followed the original Star Trek-formula. In the most basic way possible.
If it would have been the warp-thingy and a few other Little mishaps, it'd have been bearable
Again... that Premise you lament was present in TOS onwards... it was just this ONE and ONLY episode where it was shown that way... every episode before or after has NOT followed this arbitrary measurement, so to get caught on this single point while lamenting the "quality" of VOY is just... I don't even have a word for that.
I mean okay, I get it, you hate VOY with a passion but please stick to facts that are at least only problematic with VOY and not with the whole Franchise... yes?
Again... that Premise you lament was present in TOS onwards...
wait.. Enterprise was 70000 LY away and needed 75 years home at Maximum warp? *Numbertwist
The Enterprise went to edge of the galaxy and the center of the galaxy and back like it was just a trip to town. Clearly, some know how into how to TRIBBLE how fast you fly through space was lost between Star Trek and Star Trek: Voyager.
The Enterprise went to edge of the galaxy and the center of the galaxy and back like it was just a trip to town. Clearly, some know how into how to TRIBBLE how fast you fly through space was lost between Star Trek and Star Trek: Voyager.
Nah, it wasn't lost, just not looked upon before writing scripts
Again... that Premise you lament was present in TOS onwards...
wait.. Enterprise was 70000 LY away and needed 75 years home at Maximum warp? *Numbertwist
The Enterprise went to edge of the galaxy and the center of the galaxy and back like it was just a trip to town. Clearly, some know how into how to TRIBBLE how fast you fly through space was lost between Star Trek and Star Trek: Voyager.
Not lost, deliberately retconned away by order of Roddenberry as I said earlier. And even after that they screwed it up on occasion: even by the average speeds of TOS (i.e. discounting outliers), to hear Star Trek: Enterprise tell it Qo'noS is apparently closer to Earth than Proxima Centauri. XD
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And arguably no human really has a sense of scale for astronomical distances...
Trying to come up with a reasonable speed for ships to travel while still telling consistently the kind of stories to tell is pretty hard. You either are too fast, making people wonder why there haven't been extra galactic excursions already and we haven't seen the other side of the Milky Way, or so slow that you can't really tell any type of star system hopping story (without handwaving many hours, days or weeks.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Sci Fi writers have an excellent sense of scale, and the technologies of their respective franchise.
Unfortunately, Hollywood has a dearth of Sci Fi writers, so Trek used guys from Hill Street Blues or whatever other serial drama they worked for last.
TOS used real Sci Fi writers, but internal consistency was not as important back then as it is now. You see, back then, serials were episodic, with a rare two-parter tossed in. One episode had almost nothing to do with the next, and the events of one episode did little or nothing to change the main characters themselves. Every writer began his story as if none of the other stories had taken place.
The idea of a television series which progressed as a single story came about long after TOS, and the internal discrepancies which were of trivial importance in the original and NextGen Treks became glaring plot holes when these episodic series are treated as if they were supposed to be a single continuous story.
The issue is not the lack of internal consistency in the stories, but in the expectation of the modern audience that that's how it should have been done back then. It is a matter of perspective. For a dose of perspective, watch a few episodes of Bonanza or Gunsmoke. Each episode stands alone, with no reference to events of other episodes unless a recurring character is involved.
And arguably no human really has a sense of scale for astronomical distances...
Trying to come up with a reasonable speed for ships to travel while still telling consistently the kind of stories to tell is pretty hard. You either are too fast, making people wonder why there haven't been extra galactic excursions already and we haven't seen the other side of the Milky Way, or so slow that you can't really tell any type of star system hopping story (without handwaving many hours, days or weeks.)
That's true. It's sort of like how Superman is only as strong or fast as the plot demands at the moment.
Comments
Didn't they do the same thing back in the days when LoR was released? I am not sure if I mix up things but wasn't there any expansion where they did this on purpose to not to spoilder the whole story line.
P.S.A. hey kids... once upon a time TV shows lasted about 50minutes with 10 of commercials, and a season was closer to 30 episodes. Let that sink in for a bit.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
even if you watch them like that, the shows themselves have less actual time in them because its been trimmed down to allow for 15-20min of commercials now. 1/4 of an hour long episode is now commercial time and not show.
That krap started sneaking in back in the late '80's.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
http://www.npr.org/2015/02/24/388796076/amid-declining-ratings-cable-networks-speed-up-reruns-to-make-room-for-ads
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I know they do it but I really hate being reminded they do it
Yeah, because this thread has TOS-warp... which is faster than Voyagers Warp 9,975
If their writers would have watched TOS (specifically the episode 'That which survives') they could have prevented a big flaw in their maths. And they could have saved Voyager 74 years, 11 months and a few days (at least according to their premise). I wish I'd be more precise.
That's a retcon. Gene Roddenberry didn't want ever-faster warp speeds so for the TNG series bible (which the Technical Manual is partly based on) he specified the new warp scale to go from warp 1 = c up to warp 9 = 1516c, and asymptotic to warp 10 after that.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
No it's not. In that particular Episode the Enterprise went 990 LY with TOS Warp 8.4 in ~11 hours. According to that formula, Voyager would have arrived at the badlands in approximately four weeks, travelling at TOS' Warp 8,4!
The error lies in a writing-staff not properly proofreading and adjusting their script to match the actual source-material. I know the Warp-scale was tweaked, but they just fu**ed it up.
Of course it's a nitpick, and it doesn't change the (awfully bad) narrative of Voyager.
And this one inconsistency is what ticks you off? On average there are at least 3 inconsistencies per episode throughout every incarnation... that happens when you use writers from all over the place, they glance (at best) at what came before, maybe read some sort of "Show Bible" and that's about it... even that "cool" TOS Speed was never seen again... also not during TNG, not during DS9 and of course not during Voyager...
As I said, Voyager has an awfully badly written narrative in general; Be it the plots or be it the characters. It's not about that one inconsistency in particular (it's just the one that actually makes the premise of Voyager laughable at its very start), it's about the incredible BOATLOAD of inconsistencies that Voyager delivered from episode to episode, always on the exact same level. There was no worst or best episode IMO... they're equally not up to the standards of TOS or TNG. The only Thing Voyager kinda got right is that Voyager's journey was a 'Trek through space' rather than sitting between a planet and a wormhole. So I'll give Voyager that it at least followed the original Star Trek-formula. In the most basic way possible.
If it would have been the warp-thingy and a few other Little mishaps, it'd have been bearable
I mean okay, I get it, you hate VOY with a passion but please stick to facts that are at least only problematic with VOY and not with the whole Franchise... yes?
wait.. Enterprise was 70000 LY away and needed 75 years home at Maximum warp? *Numbertwist
The Enterprise went to edge of the galaxy and the center of the galaxy and back like it was just a trip to town. Clearly, some know how into how to TRIBBLE how fast you fly through space was lost between Star Trek and Star Trek: Voyager.
Nah, it wasn't lost, just not looked upon before writing scripts
Not lost, deliberately retconned away by order of Roddenberry as I said earlier. And even after that they screwed it up on occasion: even by the average speeds of TOS (i.e. discounting outliers), to hear Star Trek: Enterprise tell it Qo'noS is apparently closer to Earth than Proxima Centauri. XD
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And arguably no human really has a sense of scale for astronomical distances...
Trying to come up with a reasonable speed for ships to travel while still telling consistently the kind of stories to tell is pretty hard. You either are too fast, making people wonder why there haven't been extra galactic excursions already and we haven't seen the other side of the Milky Way, or so slow that you can't really tell any type of star system hopping story (without handwaving many hours, days or weeks.)
Unfortunately, Hollywood has a dearth of Sci Fi writers, so Trek used guys from Hill Street Blues or whatever other serial drama they worked for last.
TOS used real Sci Fi writers, but internal consistency was not as important back then as it is now. You see, back then, serials were episodic, with a rare two-parter tossed in. One episode had almost nothing to do with the next, and the events of one episode did little or nothing to change the main characters themselves. Every writer began his story as if none of the other stories had taken place.
The idea of a television series which progressed as a single story came about long after TOS, and the internal discrepancies which were of trivial importance in the original and NextGen Treks became glaring plot holes when these episodic series are treated as if they were supposed to be a single continuous story.
The issue is not the lack of internal consistency in the stories, but in the expectation of the modern audience that that's how it should have been done back then. It is a matter of perspective. For a dose of perspective, watch a few episodes of Bonanza or Gunsmoke. Each episode stands alone, with no reference to events of other episodes unless a recurring character is involved.
That's true. It's sort of like how Superman is only as strong or fast as the plot demands at the moment.