PvP has always been an afterthought as far as Cryptic is concerned. If a dev blog has come out stating that the devs actually considered removing PvP from STO, then you know how terrible it is. In order to fix PvP in STO, it would need a dedicated dev team. Combat is not necessary for PvP. There are Dom-jot, Parrises Squares, Three-dimensional chess, races, Fizzbin, and other games that could be used to introduce interesting and balanced PvP. There is just no way to balance combat PvP in this game since we can put gold Mk XIV equipment on a Tier 1 ship and the number of universal consoles out there.
> @snoggymack22 said: > kodachikuno wrote: » > > newpersonagratis newpersonagratis#8083 > > wrote: » > > Please do not vote to remove. > > There are very few players who PVP, but we still enjoy it. > > > > > Sorry but I'd vote to kill pvpeen in every game that wasn't built from the ground up to be pvpeen only. But in those games I'd vote to remove pve > > > > > C'mon man. Gotta keep this discussion on topic. The original post stats that this isn't the place for PVP discussion! > > ;)
I think it's a shame to take the mickey. Not everybody who PvP's does so because they are trying to 'prove' something. Some people just don't find the AI very challenging and fancy something different now and then.
Not everybody is a person with a chip on their shoulder with something to 'prove', some people just like things a little bit different...
we had a Team of 5 Players that frequently did PvPs together - and PvEs in between.
3 of them stopped playing because they thought that PvP Queues took too Long, rewards were bad and one of them was upset with T6 ships (meaning he'd have to invest again to be a high lvl Performer).
Two of those Players were lifetimers and had bought the Romulan ship pack a third one also was flying the scimitar and T'varo (and I think some other Zen ships as well).
Removing PvP isn't an Option imo - it's a part of the game. Removing it would upset a few Players - imagine how oyu'd react if either storyline or PvE were to be removed.
And concerning "using PvP as an excuse for balancing" - what? this game is quite unbalanced. Similar skills should be similarily strong. They are not.
Beam overload - you get ONE stronger shot
fire at will - you get more shots, more Chance for procs to activate - if you use Romulan embassy consoles for example, that makes a huge difference. also if you have crafted beams using the [over] proc, you may even get an extra overload from that.
I tried to run beam overload with some traits: that one that allows Hangar pets to use BO as well if you do, the one from the klingon Intel raptor and one from a lobi ship that gives you an extra BO I whenever you use a BO - 3/4 ship traits used and it still did less damage than just switching to fire at will without removing the triats (which were now useless).
I wouldn't mind if they used PvP as an excuse to actually adress some of the inbalances of the game.
As for being worth the Investment - you can do ISA with a Tier three ship, if you have decent Equipment. Takes longer, but you can do it. To compete in PvP you Need the best gear possible - ie: T6 ships. So removing PvP would imo also remove the Need to upgrade and invest Money.
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
I hate PvP in all MMOs, as I can't stand the gameplay involved in MMO style PvP, and it almost always (with the notable exception of STO) seems to lead to needless nerfing of things that are perfectly fine in PvE, for the sake of pacifying the PvP crowd. Words cannot describe how happy I would be if PvP was suddenly removed from ALL MMOs. Please scrap it.
When I'm ever in the mood for PvP gaming, I play CoD.
Snip..
I wouldn't mind if they used PvP as an excuse to actually adress some of the inbalances of the game.
But they have used PvP feedback to repair/fix/adjust a bunch of abilities and weapons over the years.
(Have the Devs done a thorough job all this time ? No, they've let things slide, but they have made some effort over the years)
Ill point to the Elachi Disruptors as a prime example.
At one point, those Elachi disruptors could proc unimpeded, Sheild bypass after shield bypass, after shiled bypass. (100% shield bypass damage in case people don't know what I'm talking about)
It was the PvP community that got those weapons adjusted, as their performance was far surpassing any other weapon type at the time.
It became a thing in PvP for while to use Elachi Disruptors, as there are those who will always seek out the most OP fighting techniques.
People complained their proc was not in line with any other weapons in game at that point.
People were getting smoked in one or two passes with the DHC, or 1 shotted with Elachi Double BO.
So their proc was changed, so they could not proc over and over and over again. They added in a cooldown on the proc. Think it was 1 proc per 30secs.
What happened you ask ? Well, it forced all those Elachi Exploiters in PvP to drop them like dead weight. And they all moved on to the next OP weapon trend.
Which I think is healthy for game balance.
If there's a clambering towards a new weapon type in PvP you can bet its performing far better then anything else atm.
And is a rightful candidate for adjustment.
If all you did was PvE and used Elachis, sure, one would be upset that they changed it (like many forum users were). But on the other hand, they were "by far" outperforming any other weapon type, and they needed to be adjusted or everyone would have adopted the Elachi's as their weapon type.
You can't have a huge imbalance between weapons.
You can't have a weapon type that is far an away better then anything else at the time.
It's not good for the game. There should be equal benefit between all weapons types.
Do we have equal balance today ? No I wouldn't say we do, but its getting better.
The next trend was the AP craze and plasma doping.
So we still have issues but, some adjustments are better then none.
Otherwise it would really be the wild west of Power Creep, and there would be a lot less flexibility between builds.
If the Elachis were never fixed, you can bet, something else more powerful would have came out, as that is the nature of power creep.
Then things would have gotten out of control even more quickly then they are now.
And currently, look at all the people using Res Beam in PvP these days... Why do people use it ? Because it has a 100% shield bypass, and applies Phys damage directly to hull, for which there is little to no counter.
There is only one measly space trait that gives you 10% resistance to phys damage. Hence many PvP'ers are abusing this skill in PvP.
Id point to it for the next nerf/adjustment.
And it would be perfectly justified imo.
Since DR, there have been several adjustments, but I have noticed that since STO has gone full bore into selling power creep (since DR), they haven't been as diligent in making fixes for over performing weapons.
Probably fearful of the backlash it creates.
But they have indeed used pvp feedback (many times) in the past as a basis for adjustment.
There is an important relationship between PvE and PvP that people don't fully understand.
PvE side just get's mad that their new toy gets nerfed.
They don't care that the weapon or ability in question was way out of line performance wise.
They only care about their final DPS number.
Which is only looking at things from one side of the issue, and is a very biased position.
Not too mention, very selfish.
And look at the game today, there is "already" a large enough gap between High DPS'ers and casual players.
With no adjustments pointed out by PvP'ers, that gap would be even more cavernous.
Anyway, getting rid of PvP would solve nothing, except to anger those who still enjoy it, small as that community has become.
I wonder of you'd also find those abilities "perfectly fine for PvE" if NPC's spammed them.
The issue isn't exactly that simple. As I stated STO so far has avoided this problem, so I was mostly talking about other MMOs, like WoW for instance, where entire specs have gone from average to borderline unusable in endgame PvE, because one of their abilities was too effective in PvP and got hit with the nerf bat.
If somehow a developer was able to balance PvP and PvE separately, I would be in the "I don't care" category, but as long as PvP has the potential to impact PvE balance I will always be against PvP.
I can understand how it annoys people when things get adjusted, especially those who only pve.
But If nothing was ever done, people would use the same equipment, gear and builds, and that's not good for diversity.
Yes, some would use what they want no matter what, but a majority would be cookie cutter builders.
Following whatever the latest trend is, which is imo one of the worst side effects of power creep gone unchecked.
And if people think Epeen or whatever the hell they call it is bad here, CoD is like 10x worse. With 12 year olds yapping in your ear all match.
I can understand how it annoys people when things get adjusted, especially those who only pve.
But If nothing was ever done, people would use the same equipment, gear and builds, and that's not good for diversity.
Yes, some would use what they want no matter what, but a majority would be cookie cutter builders.
Following whatever the latest trend is, which is imo one of the worst side effects of power creep gone unchecked.
And if people think Epeen or whatever the hell they call it is bad here, CoD is like 10x worse. With 12 year olds yapping in your ear all match.
Adjustments are one thing, but other games have completely destroyed PvE balance to make PvPers happy. PvE and PvP are not played the same way in any MMO, yet developers always apply the same balance changes to both, leading to a situation where they fix one by breaking the other.
What would make me happy, with any MMO, is if each ability was essentially built twice so that PvE and PvP could be fine tuned without impacting each other in any way.
[...]
If somehow a developer was able to balance PvP and PvE separately, I would be in the "I don't care" category, but as long as PvP has the potential to impact PvE balance I will always be against PvP.
I am sorry, I don't get this. So you are saying that an ability that is overpowered compared to other abilities in the game should not be put in line?
I really have trouble understanding why that would be a valid point of view. Could you explain?
I've explained it several times. First, as I've said, I'm using WoW as an example since STO has not received a PvP balance pass in years. PvP and PvE are not played the same way in MMOs, and many times one ability will be perfectly balanced in one, but horribly OP in the other, because the two game styles are not played the same way.
In other MMOs I've even seen abilities that were underperforming in PvE nerfed even further into oblivion, because they were still OP in PvP settings.
I'd agree, that Devs do sometimes go "way overboard" when applying a fix, or even that certain underperforming skills in PvE are hurt even further by adjustments made through pvp feedback.
It does happen. I won't deny it.
I think that was the case with the Elachi Disruptors adjustment.
It was too severe/heavy handed of an adjustment.
So yeah, I'd agree, it does sometimes cause issues if the fix/adjustment is not done with extreme care.
That's part of the problem, you need Devs who have a strong grasp of the PvE PvP relationship.
Which I don't think STO fosters.
Cryptic has pretty much turned their back on Devs who had a vested interest in PvP.
Most of those Devs are working elsewhere these days.
So I will admit any adjustments made these days, are risky.
Snip..
I wouldn't mind if they used PvP as an excuse to actually adress some of the inbalances of the game.
But they have used PvP feedback to repair/fix/adjust a bunch of abilities and weapons over the years.
(Have the Devs done a thorough job all this time ? No, they've let things slide, but they have made some effort over the years)
Ill point to the Elachi Disruptors as a prime example.
At one point, those Elachi disruptors could proc unimpeded, Sheild bypass after shield bypass, after shiled bypass. (100% shield bypass damage in case people don't know what I'm talking about)
It was the PvP community that got those weapons adjusted, as their performance was far surpassing any other weapon type at the time.
It became a thing in PvP for while to use Elachi Disruptors, as there are those who will always seek out the most OP fighting techniques.
People complained their proc was not in line with any other weapons in game at that point.
People were getting smoked in one or two passes with the DHC, or 1 shotted with Elachi Double BO.
So their proc was changed, so they could not proc over and over and over again. They added in a cooldown on the proc. Think it was 1 proc per 30secs.
What happened you ask ? Well, it forced all those Elachi Exploiters in PvP to drop them like dead weight. And they all moved on to the next OP weapon trend.
Which I think is healthy for game balance.
If there's a clambering towards a new weapon type in PvP you can bet its performing far better then anything else atm.
And is a rightful candidate for adjustment.
If all you did was PvE and used Elachis, sure, one would be upset that they changed it (like many forum users were). But on the other hand, they were "by far" outperforming any other weapon type, and they needed to be adjusted or everyone would have adopted the Elachi's as their weapon type.
You can't have a huge imbalance between weapons.
You can't have a weapon type that is far an away better then anything else at the time.
It's not good for the game. There should be equal benefit between all weapons types.
Do we have equal balance today ? No I wouldn't say we do, but its getting better.
The next trend was the AP craze and plasma doping.
So we still have issues but, some adjustments are better then none.
Otherwise it would really be the wild west of Power Creep, and there would be a lot less flexibility between builds.
If the Elachis were never fixed, you can bet, something else more powerful would have came out, as that is the nature of power creep.
Then things would have gotten out of control even more quickly then they are now.
And currently, look at all the people using Res Beam in PvP these days... Why do people use it ? Because it has a 100% shield bypass, and applies Phys damage directly to hull, for which there is little to no counter.
There is only one measly space trait that gives you 10% resistance to phys damage. Hence many PvP'ers are abusing this skill in PvP.
Id point to it for the next nerf/adjustment.
And it would be perfectly justified imo.
Since DR, there have been several adjustments, but I have noticed that since STO has gone full bore into selling power creep (since DR), they haven't been as diligent in making fixes for over performing weapons.
Probably fearful of the backlash it creates.
But they have indeed used pvp feedback (many times) in the past as a basis for adjustment.
There is an important relationship between PvE and PvP that people don't fully understand.
PvE side just get's mad that their new toy gets nerfed.
They don't care that the weapon or ability in question was way out of line performance wise.
They only care about their final DPS number.
Which is only looking at things from one side of the issue, and is a very biased position.
Not too mention, very selfish.
And look at the game today, there is "already" a large enough gap between High DPS'ers and casual players.
With no adjustments pointed out by PvP'ers, that gap would be even more cavernous.
Anyway, getting rid of PvP would solve nothing, except to anger those who still enjoy it, small as that community has become.
So...in all of what you posted...you don't see the issue that PvE players would have with PvP players? You don't think somebody who spent the hundreds of millions of EC or hundreds of even thousands of real world money to get a set of the elachi weapons for the PvE fun...won't be miffed that it was nerfed into uselessness because of the PvP crowd? And don't get me started on what you all did to science because you tact jockies couldn't handle it. Hell there is STILL a cry about FBP because you idiots can't learn to STOP SHOOTING if somebody pops one of these up (unless you think that FBP should be nerfed in PvE because it is so OP...I don't mean some of the traits are actually broken...but FBP itself...which is pretty meh in PvE alone). So until I stop seeing a call for a nerf to FBP, I am gonna go with you all do more harm then good and wish you all to go away.
You say PvE people are selfish because they get mad that the stuff they worked and in many cases PAID REAL MONEY for gets nerfed because a part of the game THEY DON'T EVEN PLAY decided it was OP for JUST THEIR SEGMENT of the game. So...who is the selfish one here again? Yes there is a problem with the disparity between the high and low end of this playerbase...but not all of that has to do with gear. Some of it is the PLAYERS themselves. You could take a 250k DPS ship and hand it to some of the lower end players and you'd be lucky to get 50k out of a run. If that high DPS ship is a cannon or sci boat...yeah lucky to get half that. This is because a lot of doing crazy DPS has to do with timing stacking of buffs and debuffs. Now the system COULD be set in a way that skills don't affect the results as much (mostly by taking stacking away)...but seriously, a game is suppose to have an element of skill. The fact that this game has a range of players from people who are hardcore gamers with 1337 skills to people who are so bad at games that they tremble at the idea that they may have to swap out items that orginally came with the ship...yeah...that ain't gonna get solved by adjusted item stats.
Clearly you don't read so well.
I did say the nerf to Elachis were heavy handed and out of step with what was needed. I'm not unreasonable.
My point was, if nothing was done, they would have been without a doubt, far and away, the best weapon type in the game, and that in itself isn't right.
Unless you want everyone using Elachi disruptors and cookie cutter builds because that is what would have happened.
That said, the Elachi weapons are far from useless, they ARE STILL an excellent Disruptor weapon.
And they still sell for VERY LARGE sums of EC on the exchange.
Only now they are more in line with other types of energy weapon.
Also, if you knew me, you'd know I run a SCI for pvp, using FBP+Kinetic FBP build in my T5U Vesta.
LOL
I'm one of the first to speak out when someone complains about FBP builds.
My main reason for running this build, is primarily to punish the players like you, who would run to the latest trends in OP'ness, and power creep.
That kind of behavior is what encourages game developers to push more power creep.
I also realize the early nerfs to Science truly put those builds at a disadvantage for a long, long time.
But I had also said earlier, these nerfs are sometimes done with a heavy handedness that is not appropriate.
And that Devs need to truly understand the PvE/PvP relationship before making these changes, and this is one of the problems here in STO, where Devs have gone too far in one direction or the other, by not understanding that relationship well enough.
And yes, you are selfish, very selfish, if you thought Elachis were "just fine" on the day they were released.
It's either that or you've deluded yourself into thinking they were somehow balanced in comparison to other weapon types. Or you just don't do much testing yourself. So maybe you never knew the extent of the issue.
The fact someone pays large sums of real life money for an item, and are now displeased with how that item was changed, is another topic all together. That's more of an ethical issue between the Company and the player.
But for you to say Elachi weapons are useless, even post-nerf is a bald face lie. One thing I can't stand is a liar.
If you want to tell yourself you were cheated out of RL money, by all means, but please don't spread your falsehoods. It just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
Those of us who have done extensive testing know what the real truth is.
And no, these changes are not just for pvp, they are used to ensure there are no "extreme cases" of one weapon or ability severely out performing everything else in the PvE setting.
Ill add something though in your defense, maybe you bought those elachi weapons, with the expectation, they would be balanced on their release. Which I wouldn't blame anyone for. And I wish this were the case for every new item released.
But if you did do the testing, you would've seen yourself that they were indeed vastly superior to anything else at the time.
So, I have some sympathy, for those who put faith in the developers to get things right, the first time.
But that's rarely been the case here in STO. But again, that's an ethics issue between the Developer and Player.
Look at the Kemo controversy for more evidence of this if you need more proof.
Plenty of people invested many millions to acquire this ability.
Granted the Kemo issue is a little different, as it was causing massive lags spikes, while at the same time being OP.
But its just another example of new items/abilities being released without the proper QA.
I wonder of you'd also find those abilities "perfectly fine for PvE" if NPC's spammed them.
You win my heart and mind for the day.
Thank you
My heart yes. My mind? Less of a win there. I've played enough MMOs over the years with some really cutting edge (for their time) PVE encounter design. And it's a shortcoming of the overall system that NPCs can't be trusted to be as effective as human opponents. AI doesn't really have an advantage here. So my mind tells me that if the NPCs started spamming those abilities, there'd simply be a learning curve and period of time where adjustments in builds and tactics would have to be made. The path would be discovered and viola, "farm mode."
That's the cycle.
It's a puzzle. It would be challenging for awhile (hence why the heart is won over with the concept). But the mind sees the logic. Yes, STO PVE is a lot easier than, say, Everquest NTOV raids in Veilious era. And Sleeper's Tomb and all of that.
But NTOV eventually became farmable. Sleeper was awoken. Sleeper was, even, years later, defeated. No matter what the NPCs throw at the players, it's all scripted. There is a path to overcome and once that's discovered, the game has to move on.
It's the biggest allure that PVP has and will always have. The fights, the challenges, they're real, they evolve and they are in that sense fun.
PVP falls apart in other areas. A lot of other areas in STO. I'm not going to address any of that. It's too much for me. I just want to say that I absolutely see the value in PVP and it is tied into the fact that the opponents can't ever be put on "farm mode."
But conversely, NPCs will always be scripted in this format. And so challenging NPCs is a pipe dream. Not with this game genre and not with this technology at least.
That being said, if Cryptic wanted to make the NPCs harder and use tougher abilities ... I'll adapt. Bring it on! Just, you know, after awhile that becomes the new norm and suddenly they're not tough anymore.
Keep PVP but let it continue to rot, and only make game balance changes / nerfs for PVE issues not PVP.
Anyone wanting to PVP can still do it, but it will be up to them to agree on the rules for the duel -- no (boff power X), no (console Y), no (trait Z) or whatever. Those who cheat, exclude them from your matches.
Some people just don't like it when their broken, pay-to-whale cheese crutches are dialed back to something in the neighborhood of sanity. They'll get over it.
[...]I've played enough MMOs over the years with some really cutting edge (for their time) PVE encounter design. And it's a shortcoming of the overall system that NPCs can't be trusted to be as effective as human opponents. AI doesn't really have an advantage here. [...]
Curent AI technology, even established game AI technology, can be made to fly in circles around us in a single ship and blow us up with constraints that are equal to players. It is not a technological limitation, but a design decision to have them be this dumb and inflexible.
No...no it can't. If you think this is true, then you are a terrible pilot. Yes, the current AI can defeat TERRIBLE players...but I am not talking about that now am I.
I think what the poster is saying is that the current tech in the game (and maybe some improvements to that technology here and there) which are all reasonable and achievable by Cryptic's development team could create NPC AI that is far more challenging.
And if that is the case, I agree. I think it can be improved. This is where the poster's suggestion wins my heart. The game's PVE does set the bar low. As you point out, the current AI is just too easy.
The Poster is suggesting that can be changed, to create a new AI that is more challenging.
I agree.
What I'm saying is that my mind just realizes that after that happens, and we all adjust ... the new challenging content will become less challenging. And then we're right back here, having the same discussion.
Al Rivera effectively removed PVP years ago. Have you seen the population of the queues anytime in the past four years?
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Comments
> kodachikuno wrote: »
>
> newpersonagratis newpersonagratis#8083
>
> wrote: »
>
> Please do not vote to remove.
>
> There are very few players who PVP, but we still enjoy it.
>
>
>
>
> Sorry but I'd vote to kill pvpeen in every game that wasn't built from the ground up to be pvpeen only. But in those games I'd vote to remove pve
>
>
>
>
> C'mon man. Gotta keep this discussion on topic. The original post stats that this isn't the place for PVP discussion!
>
> ;)
I think it's a shame to take the mickey. Not everybody who PvP's does so because they are trying to 'prove' something. Some people just don't find the AI very challenging and fancy something different now and then.
Not everybody is a person with a chip on their shoulder with something to 'prove', some people just like things a little bit different...
Is that so bad?
3 of them stopped playing because they thought that PvP Queues took too Long, rewards were bad and one of them was upset with T6 ships (meaning he'd have to invest again to be a high lvl Performer).
Two of those Players were lifetimers and had bought the Romulan ship pack a third one also was flying the scimitar and T'varo (and I think some other Zen ships as well).
Removing PvP isn't an Option imo - it's a part of the game. Removing it would upset a few Players - imagine how oyu'd react if either storyline or PvE were to be removed.
And concerning "using PvP as an excuse for balancing" - what? this game is quite unbalanced. Similar skills should be similarily strong. They are not.
Beam overload - you get ONE stronger shot
fire at will - you get more shots, more Chance for procs to activate - if you use Romulan embassy consoles for example, that makes a huge difference. also if you have crafted beams using the [over] proc, you may even get an extra overload from that.
I tried to run beam overload with some traits: that one that allows Hangar pets to use BO as well if you do, the one from the klingon Intel raptor and one from a lobi ship that gives you an extra BO I whenever you use a BO - 3/4 ship traits used and it still did less damage than just switching to fire at will without removing the triats (which were now useless).
I wouldn't mind if they used PvP as an excuse to actually adress some of the inbalances of the game.
As for being worth the Investment - you can do ISA with a Tier three ship, if you have decent Equipment. Takes longer, but you can do it. To compete in PvP you Need the best gear possible - ie: T6 ships. So removing PvP would imo also remove the Need to upgrade and invest Money.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
But they have used PvP feedback to repair/fix/adjust a bunch of abilities and weapons over the years.
(Have the Devs done a thorough job all this time ? No, they've let things slide, but they have made some effort over the years)
Ill point to the Elachi Disruptors as a prime example.
At one point, those Elachi disruptors could proc unimpeded, Sheild bypass after shield bypass, after shiled bypass. (100% shield bypass damage in case people don't know what I'm talking about)
It was the PvP community that got those weapons adjusted, as their performance was far surpassing any other weapon type at the time.
It became a thing in PvP for while to use Elachi Disruptors, as there are those who will always seek out the most OP fighting techniques.
People complained their proc was not in line with any other weapons in game at that point.
People were getting smoked in one or two passes with the DHC, or 1 shotted with Elachi Double BO.
So their proc was changed, so they could not proc over and over and over again. They added in a cooldown on the proc. Think it was 1 proc per 30secs.
What happened you ask ? Well, it forced all those Elachi Exploiters in PvP to drop them like dead weight. And they all moved on to the next OP weapon trend.
Which I think is healthy for game balance.
If there's a clambering towards a new weapon type in PvP you can bet its performing far better then anything else atm.
And is a rightful candidate for adjustment.
If all you did was PvE and used Elachis, sure, one would be upset that they changed it (like many forum users were). But on the other hand, they were "by far" outperforming any other weapon type, and they needed to be adjusted or everyone would have adopted the Elachi's as their weapon type.
You can't have a huge imbalance between weapons.
You can't have a weapon type that is far an away better then anything else at the time.
It's not good for the game. There should be equal benefit between all weapons types.
Do we have equal balance today ? No I wouldn't say we do, but its getting better.
The next trend was the AP craze and plasma doping.
So we still have issues but, some adjustments are better then none.
Otherwise it would really be the wild west of Power Creep, and there would be a lot less flexibility between builds.
If the Elachis were never fixed, you can bet, something else more powerful would have came out, as that is the nature of power creep.
Then things would have gotten out of control even more quickly then they are now.
And currently, look at all the people using Res Beam in PvP these days... Why do people use it ? Because it has a 100% shield bypass, and applies Phys damage directly to hull, for which there is little to no counter.
There is only one measly space trait that gives you 10% resistance to phys damage. Hence many PvP'ers are abusing this skill in PvP.
Id point to it for the next nerf/adjustment.
And it would be perfectly justified imo.
Since DR, there have been several adjustments, but I have noticed that since STO has gone full bore into selling power creep (since DR), they haven't been as diligent in making fixes for over performing weapons.
Probably fearful of the backlash it creates.
But they have indeed used pvp feedback (many times) in the past as a basis for adjustment.
There is an important relationship between PvE and PvP that people don't fully understand.
PvE side just get's mad that their new toy gets nerfed.
They don't care that the weapon or ability in question was way out of line performance wise.
They only care about their final DPS number.
Which is only looking at things from one side of the issue, and is a very biased position.
Not too mention, very selfish.
And look at the game today, there is "already" a large enough gap between High DPS'ers and casual players.
With no adjustments pointed out by PvP'ers, that gap would be even more cavernous.
Anyway, getting rid of PvP would solve nothing, except to anger those who still enjoy it, small as that community has become.
You win my heart and mind for the day.
Thank you
The issue isn't exactly that simple. As I stated STO so far has avoided this problem, so I was mostly talking about other MMOs, like WoW for instance, where entire specs have gone from average to borderline unusable in endgame PvE, because one of their abilities was too effective in PvP and got hit with the nerf bat.
If somehow a developer was able to balance PvP and PvE separately, I would be in the "I don't care" category, but as long as PvP has the potential to impact PvE balance I will always be against PvP.
But If nothing was ever done, people would use the same equipment, gear and builds, and that's not good for diversity.
Yes, some would use what they want no matter what, but a majority would be cookie cutter builders.
Following whatever the latest trend is, which is imo one of the worst side effects of power creep gone unchecked.
And if people think Epeen or whatever the hell they call it is bad here, CoD is like 10x worse. With 12 year olds yapping in your ear all match.
Adjustments are one thing, but other games have completely destroyed PvE balance to make PvPers happy. PvE and PvP are not played the same way in any MMO, yet developers always apply the same balance changes to both, leading to a situation where they fix one by breaking the other.
What would make me happy, with any MMO, is if each ability was essentially built twice so that PvE and PvP could be fine tuned without impacting each other in any way.
I've explained it several times. First, as I've said, I'm using WoW as an example since STO has not received a PvP balance pass in years. PvP and PvE are not played the same way in MMOs, and many times one ability will be perfectly balanced in one, but horribly OP in the other, because the two game styles are not played the same way.
In other MMOs I've even seen abilities that were underperforming in PvE nerfed even further into oblivion, because they were still OP in PvP settings.
I'd agree, that Devs do sometimes go "way overboard" when applying a fix, or even that certain underperforming skills in PvE are hurt even further by adjustments made through pvp feedback.
It does happen. I won't deny it.
I think that was the case with the Elachi Disruptors adjustment.
It was too severe/heavy handed of an adjustment.
So yeah, I'd agree, it does sometimes cause issues if the fix/adjustment is not done with extreme care.
That's part of the problem, you need Devs who have a strong grasp of the PvE PvP relationship.
Which I don't think STO fosters.
Cryptic has pretty much turned their back on Devs who had a vested interest in PvP.
Most of those Devs are working elsewhere these days.
So I will admit any adjustments made these days, are risky.
Clearly you don't read so well.
I did say the nerf to Elachis were heavy handed and out of step with what was needed. I'm not unreasonable.
My point was, if nothing was done, they would have been without a doubt, far and away, the best weapon type in the game, and that in itself isn't right.
Unless you want everyone using Elachi disruptors and cookie cutter builds because that is what would have happened.
That said, the Elachi weapons are far from useless, they ARE STILL an excellent Disruptor weapon.
And they still sell for VERY LARGE sums of EC on the exchange.
Only now they are more in line with other types of energy weapon.
Also, if you knew me, you'd know I run a SCI for pvp, using FBP+Kinetic FBP build in my T5U Vesta.
LOL
I'm one of the first to speak out when someone complains about FBP builds.
My main reason for running this build, is primarily to punish the players like you, who would run to the latest trends in OP'ness, and power creep.
That kind of behavior is what encourages game developers to push more power creep.
I also realize the early nerfs to Science truly put those builds at a disadvantage for a long, long time.
But I had also said earlier, these nerfs are sometimes done with a heavy handedness that is not appropriate.
And that Devs need to truly understand the PvE/PvP relationship before making these changes, and this is one of the problems here in STO, where Devs have gone too far in one direction or the other, by not understanding that relationship well enough.
And yes, you are selfish, very selfish, if you thought Elachis were "just fine" on the day they were released.
It's either that or you've deluded yourself into thinking they were somehow balanced in comparison to other weapon types. Or you just don't do much testing yourself. So maybe you never knew the extent of the issue.
The fact someone pays large sums of real life money for an item, and are now displeased with how that item was changed, is another topic all together. That's more of an ethical issue between the Company and the player.
But for you to say Elachi weapons are useless, even post-nerf is a bald face lie. One thing I can't stand is a liar.
If you want to tell yourself you were cheated out of RL money, by all means, but please don't spread your falsehoods. It just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
Those of us who have done extensive testing know what the real truth is.
And no, these changes are not just for pvp, they are used to ensure there are no "extreme cases" of one weapon or ability severely out performing everything else in the PvE setting.
Ill add something though in your defense, maybe you bought those elachi weapons, with the expectation, they would be balanced on their release. Which I wouldn't blame anyone for. And I wish this were the case for every new item released.
But if you did do the testing, you would've seen yourself that they were indeed vastly superior to anything else at the time.
So, I have some sympathy, for those who put faith in the developers to get things right, the first time.
But that's rarely been the case here in STO. But again, that's an ethics issue between the Developer and Player.
Look at the Kemo controversy for more evidence of this if you need more proof.
Plenty of people invested many millions to acquire this ability.
Granted the Kemo issue is a little different, as it was causing massive lags spikes, while at the same time being OP.
But its just another example of new items/abilities being released without the proper QA.
Edit: Cleaned up some language.
My heart yes. My mind? Less of a win there. I've played enough MMOs over the years with some really cutting edge (for their time) PVE encounter design. And it's a shortcoming of the overall system that NPCs can't be trusted to be as effective as human opponents. AI doesn't really have an advantage here. So my mind tells me that if the NPCs started spamming those abilities, there'd simply be a learning curve and period of time where adjustments in builds and tactics would have to be made. The path would be discovered and viola, "farm mode."
That's the cycle.
It's a puzzle. It would be challenging for awhile (hence why the heart is won over with the concept). But the mind sees the logic. Yes, STO PVE is a lot easier than, say, Everquest NTOV raids in Veilious era. And Sleeper's Tomb and all of that.
But NTOV eventually became farmable. Sleeper was awoken. Sleeper was, even, years later, defeated. No matter what the NPCs throw at the players, it's all scripted. There is a path to overcome and once that's discovered, the game has to move on.
It's the biggest allure that PVP has and will always have. The fights, the challenges, they're real, they evolve and they are in that sense fun.
PVP falls apart in other areas. A lot of other areas in STO. I'm not going to address any of that. It's too much for me. I just want to say that I absolutely see the value in PVP and it is tied into the fact that the opponents can't ever be put on "farm mode."
But conversely, NPCs will always be scripted in this format. And so challenging NPCs is a pipe dream. Not with this game genre and not with this technology at least.
That being said, if Cryptic wanted to make the NPCs harder and use tougher abilities ... I'll adapt. Bring it on! Just, you know, after awhile that becomes the new norm and suddenly they're not tough anymore.
Anyone wanting to PVP can still do it, but it will be up to them to agree on the rules for the duel -- no (boff power X), no (console Y), no (trait Z) or whatever. Those who cheat, exclude them from your matches.
I think what the poster is saying is that the current tech in the game (and maybe some improvements to that technology here and there) which are all reasonable and achievable by Cryptic's development team could create NPC AI that is far more challenging.
And if that is the case, I agree. I think it can be improved. This is where the poster's suggestion wins my heart. The game's PVE does set the bar low. As you point out, the current AI is just too easy.
The Poster is suggesting that can be changed, to create a new AI that is more challenging.
I agree.
What I'm saying is that my mind just realizes that after that happens, and we all adjust ... the new challenging content will become less challenging. And then we're right back here, having the same discussion.
The goal posts will have moved. That's it.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.