It's fine that you participate in this discussion, however please read the rules I have placed on the top of p. one of this discussion so this can be a relevant, friendly discussion on PvP.
It's fine that you participate in this discussion, however please read the rules I have placed on the top of p. one of this discussion so this can be a relevant, friendly discussion on PvP.
what i wrote on that poll one that got shot down i will put here as well. PvP is ancient, it should stay buried and the last time it got a major improvement was never. no further point pandering to the minority of players who PvP. i suspect pvp is not even on the list of concerns for future content. klingons and romulans are in the same boat, only they have gotten a major improvement at one point or another.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
[...]
Have you followed the whole "Alpha Go" thing? Or the Deep Blue chess duel?
Of course.
[...]The possible moves lead to a tree - each path through the tree representing a sequence of moves, and the entire tree representing all possible moves. [...]
Sure. However, I doubt that any human player of STO will have a terribly high search tree depth.
As I said, STO isn't Go, and I am sure a finite state machine is entirely sufficient to do the right things in STO space combat better than almost all players. No need to go with reinforced learning algorithms (though that would most certainly be fun!).
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Players can and do plan ahead on when to activate buffs or debuffs. When I still PvPed, a large component was team coordination. Which included watching the timing of abilities, both those you had and those of your opponents (and your allies.) Realizing when to provide a heal, when to subnuke, generating a "fake" spike so that the enemy would overextend his healing and not be ready to assist the target of the real spike.
Just because Go is an ancient traditional game does not mean that a game like STO isn't actually a lot more complex to the wide variety of actions possible - including the possibility of interaction between multiple players. Chess and Go have the advantage of being deeply researched over centuries of their existence. There are millions of moves on record. And they are only one player vs one player. The success of Chess or Go is a lot due to the relatively simple rules that still allow extremely complex outcomes. But we have a game with complex rules and complex outcomes.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Interaction between multiple players is more complex for humans than it is for an AI - the AI will just handle this as if all opposing team members were played by the same entity (and on its own NPC-side, it probably would be handled exactly like that).
Let us look at how many abilities a player at endgame has - something like 30 clickables, I would say. That's 150 abilities across a 5-ship-team, or 300 in a 10-ship match, 5v5. Maximum theoretical number of combinations of all those abilities (clicked on and off) at a given point in time: Something like 2 times 10 to the power of 90. Let us assume each of those has a 30 second cooldown. Over the course of a 15-minute fight, we could very roughly have each ability clicked about 30 times, so we'd be looking at a total of 6 times 10 to the power of 91 possible combinations of powers. Of course, positioning and movement can make it more complex, but as long as everybody stays in range, it is not that vital, espcially in the FAW age that we are in, so you could simplify things a lot there.
Maximum number of positions in a chess game (and even a simple chess program on your regular cellphone could defeat the vast majority of human beings who even know the chess rules without having more than half a second for each move): About 10 to the power of 120. Maximum number of positions in a Go game: 2 times 10 to the power of 170.
My math may be off. But I'd say we're not talking about a terribly high complecity.
It's just not worth bothering, with all the people who don't want a fight.
i understand the need to compete with other players, i used to do a bit of bf2 and wolf:et in years past, but if i wanted that type of action i would login to swtor and play some unranked there.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
id sooner see it pulled out of STO. dont see the point in playing the same few maps and kerrat over and over. brainfade must be a common occurance with pvp'ers, probably why they compete with each other with in chat. doesnt exactly promote a healthy place for some friendly matches.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
id sooner see it pulled out of STO. dont see the point in playing the same few maps and kerrat over and over. brainfade must be a common occurance with pvp'ers, probably why they compete with each other with in chat. doesnt exactly promote a healthy place for some friendly matches.
I'd rather play in the "same few maps" than continuously destroy the same npcs over and over who offer no challenge at all.
seems the People who want to get rid of PvP are also calling for a Limitation on Maximum DPS - which suggest to me that they aren't good at dealing damage or surviving? Why else trying to remove something from the game that can easily be avoided?
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
... pvp? yay, for those who want it! i loved it when it was worth it! always a lot more than behaviour, unreflective thinking and clueless opinions i read in here lol.... those aren't worth a dime! kkbbthxgainstoloforumzZz
To the kind people offering me pointers on countering FBP. I know how to counter FBP. I've been PvPing since F2P. The problem isn't how to counter it, the problem is not getting the chance after being hit with 100k+ on a ship with 55k hull. It used to be that an alphastriker like myself (someone that relies on timing with a BO and HY3 to bring down a ship) would get a little crippled when someone would use FBP all of a sudden. However, there was enough time to turn away and stop firing to avoid more damage, largely because before DR FBP could never 1 shot people with the exception of broken build vapers. Now however, not only is it difficult to identify FBP from the large buff string that has come from all these traits and whatnot, you don't have enough time to stop firing because that damage you deal is multiplied then sent back to you.
My build does not rely on high attack power, I rarely peak over 60k hit at the most with APA, APO and FOMM. But that 60k is being sent back to me at over 100k. My weapon power is high but I run a doffed drake with EPtE1 and EPtS2 on a continuous cycle to keep shield power almost as high as my weapons and my engines as high too. And I'm not even going to go into TBR and the relentless disables/shutdowns and placates that come from passive traits.
Remove it. It's just a big mess and has no bearing or point. There is no zone control in the game, no draw other than to blow up another ship. The daily pvp mission is just weak and obsolete. It's not worth putting effort into to get right.
If there had been a poll in this thread, I'd vote to get rid of it. I don't do it, all I hear is how broken it is and to balance PvP my powers get nerfed all the time.
you got a hull, you can get armour cosoles, you can use polarize hull.
yes, I love to have everything on Auto Loop and just hit space - that works in PvE, but not so much in PvP. Micromanagement decides over victory or defeat - and it would be easier if the game was less laggy.
I have builds that have over 300 Flow caps, and use a few different skills to drain power - sometimes an enemy lies there with 0 power to all Subsystems. Overpowered? No, because, some Players defend against that sort of Thing (ie: aux battery and Hazzard Emitters)
FBP overpowered? I have killed some Players who rely on that - after adjusting my build and removing one Transfer shield in favour of Polarize hull.
surigcal strikes Overpowered? Well I have been killed within a few seconds, but I adjusted. Got in a FBP, used rock'n'roll, ....
There are a few Players in PvP who get the max out of one skill and make it look overpowered. But if you have a build that can adjust, you get killed once or twice and then you can win.
That is 1vs1 - in Team battles it'S much morre difficult, as you cannot absorb everything. Also in Team battles strategy matters.
I remember doing one Arena, teamed up with a friend. We were losing badly, till I told him to drain/shut down their healer. We still won the game.
PvP is a challenge. PvP is unpredictable. I have lost countless PvP battles - some REALLY badly. PvP is the high end game and not for noobs. I would enjoy it much more if there was less lag and more rewards. And Shorter waiting times.
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
To the kind people offering me pointers on countering FBP.
I know how to counter FBP. I've been PvPing since F2P. The problem isn't how to counter it, the problem is not getting the chance after being hit with 100k+ on a ship with 55k hull. It used to be that an alphastriker like myself (someone that relies on timing with a BO and HY3 to bring down a ship) would get a little crippled when someone would use FBP all of a sudden. However, there was enough time to turn away and stop firing to avoid more damage, largely because before DR FBP could never 1 shot people with the exception of broken build vapers.
Now however, not only is it difficult to identify FBP from the large buff string that has come from all these traits and whatnot, you don't have enough time to stop firing because that damage you deal is multiplied then sent back to you.
My build does not rely on high attack power, I rarely peak over 60k hit at the most with APA, APO and FOMM. But that 60k is being sent back to me at over 100k. My weapon power is high but I run a doffed drake with EPtE1 and EPtS2 on a continuous cycle to keep shield power almost as high as my weapons and my engines as high too. And I'm not even going to go into TBR and the relentless disables/shutdowns and placates that come from passive traits.
So...you have a 55k hull ship that is tossing out a SINGLE hit that does more then your hull and you think the problem is FBP...and not the fact that you can do that much in a SINGLE hit?!? Here's an indea...how about you spend some of those tact slots for something that increases survivability instead of spire tact consoles so you do so much stupid silly damage.
lolpost ^^ xD.... u know u just inflicted a call for nerf, something always blamed on pvp'ers?! and in the next sentence u subliminal promote the use of uni-cons as counter, one of the most significant sign of powercreep...
but it's ok, nvm.... tell us "the truth" lol
kkbbthx
[quote="semalda226;12939451"]You could lower your power setting....swap to a torp (can't FBP kinetic/exotic/special damage types)...watch for cycling of FBP (the effect looks like lines of light moving into the ships hull)[/quote]
@risingwolfshadow At this time, you will probably need the Zahl trait. Its your best bet to defend against fbp, if polhull/Brace for impact and att pattern Delta are not working for you...
I really hate recommending a trait, because it shows the nature of p2w...but that's the sad reality of it. Hence why I'd like to see a no traits/stock ship mode.
And people should heed what @squirrlytunic has said. He is regularily at the top of the dps charts, and has a vast knowledge of STOs game mechanics.
It would be wise to listen to him. Because if something is op/broken, he will be one of the first to find it and point it out. All they want is to keep items/weapons and abilities in line with each other. If something is way over the top DPS wise, it will be called out for the benefit of all.
If this never happened, everyone would chase the latest and greatest power creep. And that would only encourage devs to push out even more power creep. And tbh, I dont feel like chasing new trends every other lockbox, no thanks.
Chasing ship traits already feels dirty enough. Welcome to STOkemon gotta catch them all !
Comments
It's fine that you participate in this discussion, however please read the rules I have placed on the top of p. one of this discussion so this can be a relevant, friendly discussion on PvP.
Thanks!
And also, if you want to make your decision about PvP, then vote at this poll: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1215631/pvp-improve-or-remove
-Q
(hint: click the image to go to my youtube channel)
http://twitch.tv/profile/quantum_quantonium
http://plus.google.com/+quantumquantonium
http://quantumquantonium.blogspot.com
http://quantonium.tk
EPIC SCREENSHOTS
what i wrote on that poll one that got shot down i will put here as well. PvP is ancient, it should stay buried and the last time it got a major improvement was never. no further point pandering to the minority of players who PvP. i suspect pvp is not even on the list of concerns for future content. klingons and romulans are in the same boat, only they have gotten a major improvement at one point or another.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Just because Go is an ancient traditional game does not mean that a game like STO isn't actually a lot more complex to the wide variety of actions possible - including the possibility of interaction between multiple players. Chess and Go have the advantage of being deeply researched over centuries of their existence. There are millions of moves on record. And they are only one player vs one player. The success of Chess or Go is a lot due to the relatively simple rules that still allow extremely complex outcomes. But we have a game with complex rules and complex outcomes.
i understand the need to compete with other players, i used to do a bit of bf2 and wolf:et in years past, but if i wanted that type of action i would login to swtor and play some unranked there.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'd rather play in the "same few maps" than continuously destroy the same npcs over and over who offer no challenge at all.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
I know how to counter FBP. I've been PvPing since F2P. The problem isn't how to counter it, the problem is not getting the chance after being hit with 100k+ on a ship with 55k hull. It used to be that an alphastriker like myself (someone that relies on timing with a BO and HY3 to bring down a ship) would get a little crippled when someone would use FBP all of a sudden. However, there was enough time to turn away and stop firing to avoid more damage, largely because before DR FBP could never 1 shot people with the exception of broken build vapers.
Now however, not only is it difficult to identify FBP from the large buff string that has come from all these traits and whatnot, you don't have enough time to stop firing because that damage you deal is multiplied then sent back to you.
My build does not rely on high attack power, I rarely peak over 60k hit at the most with APA, APO and FOMM. But that 60k is being sent back to me at over 100k. My weapon power is high but I run a doffed drake with EPtE1 and EPtS2 on a continuous cycle to keep shield power almost as high as my weapons and my engines as high too. And I'm not even going to go into TBR and the relentless disables/shutdowns and placates that come from passive traits.
yes, I love to have everything on Auto Loop and just hit space - that works in PvE, but not so much in PvP. Micromanagement decides over victory or defeat - and it would be easier if the game was less laggy.
I have builds that have over 300 Flow caps, and use a few different skills to drain power - sometimes an enemy lies there with 0 power to all Subsystems. Overpowered? No, because, some Players defend against that sort of Thing (ie: aux battery and Hazzard Emitters)
FBP overpowered? I have killed some Players who rely on that - after adjusting my build and removing one Transfer shield in favour of Polarize hull.
surigcal strikes Overpowered? Well I have been killed within a few seconds, but I adjusted. Got in a FBP, used rock'n'roll, ....
There are a few Players in PvP who get the max out of one skill and make it look overpowered. But if you have a build that can adjust, you get killed once or twice and then you can win.
That is 1vs1 - in Team battles it'S much morre difficult, as you cannot absorb everything. Also in Team battles strategy matters.
I remember doing one Arena, teamed up with a friend. We were losing badly, till I told him to drain/shut down their healer. We still won the game.
PvP is a challenge. PvP is unpredictable. I have lost countless PvP battles - some REALLY badly. PvP is the high end game and not for noobs. I would enjoy it much more if there was less lag and more rewards. And Shorter waiting times.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
lolpost ^^ xD.... u know u just inflicted a call for nerf, something always blamed on pvp'ers?! and in the next sentence u subliminal promote the use of uni-cons as counter, one of the most significant sign of powercreep...
but it's ok, nvm.... tell us "the truth" lol
kkbbthx
I have kinetic fbp on my t5u Vesta
At this time, you will probably need the Zahl trait. Its your best bet to defend against fbp, if polhull/Brace for impact and att pattern Delta are not working for you...
I really hate recommending a trait, because it shows the nature of p2w...but that's the sad reality of it.
Hence why I'd like to see a no traits/stock ship mode.
And people should heed what @squirrlytunic has said. He is regularily at the top of the dps charts, and has a vast knowledge of STOs game mechanics.
It would be wise to listen to him. Because if something is op/broken, he will be one of the first to find it and point it out.
All they want is to keep items/weapons and abilities in line with each other. If something is way over the top DPS wise, it will be called out for the benefit of all.
If this never happened, everyone would chase the latest and greatest power creep.
And that would only encourage devs to push out even more power creep.
And tbh, I dont feel like chasing new trends every other lockbox, no thanks.
Chasing ship traits already feels dirty enough.
Welcome to STOkemon gotta catch them all !