My issue with Insurrection was not so much that it wasn't clear cut, but primarily, that it had Picard taking a stance different to that which he had previously espoused throughout TNG's run. I believe during a previous discussion of the film, someone said that Sir Patrick even had reservatons about Picard's stance, but, like a Pro, he did the job asked of him I think that ss a film, it had its good parts, but I think it would have worked better as an episode, where there wasn't enough time to actually deal with the morality to quite that extent
I attribute the shift to Picard being a bit older and more experienced by Insurrection. In TNG, Picard was a bit more reserved and by the book. In Insurrection, Picard's been through the Dominion War, and even met James T. Kirk himself, and knows that you can't always go by the book.
And then there was the illegal Holoship to consider.
Also there was that metaphasic radiation that, as Data put it, was helping to foster more rebelious tendencies associated with youth.
Apologies for missing your post before... I agree, those factors could be responsible for Picard's change in stance, but like the 'illegal' holoship, much of those perspectives, come simply from plot bias, rather than true character development, which is part of the reason I consider them so incongruous...
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,664Community Moderator
Well... either way that Holoship alone was enough evidence to call the Admiral out on due to violating the Treaty of Algeron.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Of all the films, Insurrection was my least favorite. All that grimdark future and Mommie Dearest and fifty+ year old teenage anger stuff looked really bad on the TNG crew.
First Contact was okay. Borg time travel to prevent the future, along with the TNG crew meeting and helping Zefrem Cochrane, was a fun little excursion. But to people outside the fanbase, it was "Oh boy. Another Star Trek film. Yay...unh, no."
Perhaps the problem we face is Star Trek is too accessable. There is too much of it around and people have grown too accustomed to it being there. People have gotten too familair with it and like their favorite blanket, they never ever want it to change or grow or be different in any fashion. Star Trek has become comfort food.
By the 2d season of TNG, I stopped watching because it had become too predictable and was frankly more boring than watching paint dry. Jean-Luc never met an enemy he couldn't lull to sleep by pontificating at length about something or other. Who needs phasers when your most effective weapon is long windedness? Back that up with seven years of acute sensitivity training and we've got ourselves some real w(h)inners.
Then DS9 came along. Here was a Star Trek where everyone did not get along. They had the flaws of normal people and were not afraid to show them. I liked DS9. A lot. Then, it became all about the Dominion. "Oh noes! There is a fiercely fierce enemy on the other side of the wormhole who don't like us! What to do? Wait! We'll just defeat them by using the Prophets as a Deus Ex Machina! And to distract them, we'll throw out all our scruples and principles with the trash. Because by golly, we need the Romulans to help us! And if we have to murder a diplomat who is also a high ranking member of the Romulan government to get their help, then we'll do it without even a second thought and little chance of getting caught! And making biological weapons tailored to our enemy's greatest weakness are just the thing Starfleet and Federation ought to do.
Voyager was just plain laughable. Disparate groups pf people thrown together far from home who violate every tenet of Starfleet to get back there. Seven of Nine in that catsuit which was practically painted on, with camera angles and dialogue always chosen to exert maximum pressure on the over excited imaginations of men who quite frankly should have known better. And she was placed in the show because ratings were falling off. Perhaps a better title would have been Star Trek:Burlesque. Nope. Because burlesque has a point and is funny to boot. Never saw either in any episode of Voyager I forced myself to watch. I have been highly entertained about some of Voyager's most strident defenders decrying the "sexism" of TOS. Well, at least TOS was honest about the sexism.
By the time Enterprise rolled around, I escaped into the paperbacks and comics. Along with reruns of TOS. At least they wouldn't turn on me in unexpected ways.
I like JJTrek. One of my best experiences as a Star Trek fan occurred right after The 1st JJTrek film. There was group of people who all had the same idea after leaving the cinema. Head to the restaurant across the parking lot and grab a bite to eat. We began talking about the film during the walk and wound up sitting together in the IHOP. For most of them, it was their first experience with anything Trek and they had questions. Which I was more than happy to answer. They knew there was a lot of Star Trek around, but they had no idea there was so much of it. It was very enjoyable to encourage their interest and enthusiasm about all of Star Trek. I kept my opinions to myself. Because as new fans, they deserved the right to make their own minds about what parts of Star Trek they did and did not like.
You wanted an opinion, OP. This is mine.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Perhaps the problem we face is Star Trek is too accessable. There is too much of it around and people have grown too accustomed to it being there. People have gotten too familair with it and like their favorite blanket, they never ever want it to change or grow or be different in any fashion. Star Trek has become comfort food.
Yes, this is why I think it would have been better to have "new" characters (e.g. Pike's crew before Spock, Kirk, etc.) for the JJ movies instead of trying to recreate Kirk, Spock, etc. People are too attached to Shatner as Kirk, Nimoy as Spock, etc. to see them as otherwise.
I like JJTrek. One of my best experiences as a Star Trek fan occurred right after The 1st JJTrek film. There was group of people who all had the same idea after leaving the cinema. Head to the restaurant across the parking lot and grab a bite to eat. We began talking about the film during the walk and wound up sitting together in the IHOP. For most of them, it was their first experience with anything Trek and they had questions. Which I was more than happy to answer. They knew there was a lot of Star Trek around, but they had no idea there was so much of it. It was very enjoyable to encourage their interest and enthusiasm about all of Star Trek. I kept my opinions to myself. Because as new fans, they deserved the right to make their own minds about what parts of Star Trek they did and did not like.
Yeah, a lot of non-fans are only vaguely aware of the Star Trek shows that came after TOS. They will have heard of Kirk, Spock, Scotty, etc., but maybe not of Picard, Data, Sisko, Worf, Janeway, etc.
I agree that FC was perhaps one of the best ones (I still love TMP). It's hard to explain, but it was just done so well, and the plot moved along at a good pace. We even got to see the effects that assimilation had on Picard years later and how they influenced him now.
And yes, I know it's blasphemy but I actually liked TMP. Even though it was similar to "The Changeling" I still found it very good. Throughout the film, especially with the Veger scenes, it gave a gloomy feeling of mystery surrounding the ship. Yes, the beginning was a little bit slow, but the rest more than made up for it.
Well... either way that Holoship alone was enough evidence to call the Admiral out on due to violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Yeah, in that situation Dougherty was clearly in the wrong and he knew it. that's why he only wanted Data to know about it.
He certainly knew that what he was doing was controversial, but he also knew he was operating under Council orders, for what he believed was the benefit of the Federation... Ru'afo, on the other hand, he had an axe to grind, and didn't hesitate to turn on Dougherty when the admiral tried to terminate the mission...
Well... either way that Holoship alone was enough evidence to call the Admiral out on due to violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Yeah, in that situation Dougherty was clearly in the wrong and he knew it. that's why he only wanted Data to know about it.
He certainly knew that what he was doing was controversial, but he also knew he was operating under Council orders, for what he believed was the benefit of the Federation... Ru'afo, on the other hand, he had an axe to grind, and didn't hesitate to turn on Dougherty when the admiral tried to terminate the mission...
Dougherty claimed that... but when Picard asked him if the Federation council actually knew what was going on... He indicated that they did NOT. So the Council didn't really authorize what he did, they authorized something else, something nicer.
Well... either way that Holoship alone was enough evidence to call the Admiral out on due to violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Yeah, in that situation Dougherty was clearly in the wrong and he knew it. that's why he only wanted Data to know about it.
He certainly knew that what he was doing was controversial, but he also knew he was operating under Council orders, for what he believed was the benefit of the Federation... Ru'afo, on the other hand, he had an axe to grind, and didn't hesitate to turn on Dougherty when the admiral tried to terminate the mission...
Dougherty claimed that... but when Picard asked him if the Federation council actually knew what was going on... He indicated that they did NOT. So the Council didn't really authorize what he did, they authorized something else, something nicer.
I'd need to watch the scene's again to be 100% sure, but the impression that I got in the past, was that the Council had ordered the mission with the tag-drones, holo-ship, etc. And when Picard ordered Riker to go back to show the Council and 'give a face to the Ba'ku', I got the impression he was meaning more in the lines of Riker engaging in activism/protest against the existing plan to get the other side heard, not to 'say what was going on', because the Council already knew that... What the Council didn't know, was the Son'a's connection to the Ba'ku, or that Ru'afo had a grudge...
Arguably, had Picard and co not interfered, and the mission had gone to plan, then the holoship would simply have left the Briar Patch, and everything continued, or, Ru'afo would have destroyed the holoship with Dougherty on board, and reported his loss to Starfleet as some tragic accident. He seemed restrained enough to not go crazy, until the point where Dougherty tried to terminate the mission... I think that was the point which really 'set him off'...
I disagree on Ruafo's motives. I think that wiping out the Ba'ku was always part of Ruafo's plan. The other Son'a clearly did not approve of this, however.
I disagree on Ruafo's motives. I think that wiping out the Ba'ku was always part of Ruafo's plan. The other Son'a clearly did not approve of this, however.
I agree, it was likely always part of Ru'afo's plan, but I don't think he would have done it infront of Dougherty and Curtis (unless they were also killed...)
Ru'afo was looking to take or destroy that which he lost, to regain a way of life that the ba'ku have had for many years, the metaphastic rings which had a natural healing quality to the inhabitants on the surface, it is presumed that even the likes of gallatin who was reunited with his mother had gotten his old face back that was mutilated over the years.
Basically it was a petty act of revenge to kill his family and those whom he used to call friends as well, likely out of jealousy to the fact that if he cant have it no one can and he was trying to do it in such a way that starfleet would be powerless to stop them before it was too late. The problem with ru'afo is that his impatience ultimately cost him his chance and even gallatin who supported him all those years realized that his plan was mad to the point of lunacy.
Had starfleet known about the son'a being direct relatives of the ba'ku i doubt Dougherty would of been able to remain there under any circumstances as it would of been a violation of the prime directive to not interfere with other cultures, it is just as well it was not found earlier on.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Ru'afo was looking to take or destroy that which he lost, to regain a way of life that the ba'ku have had for many years, the metaphastic rings which had a natural healing quality to the inhabitants on the surface, it is presumed that even the likes of gallatin who was reunited with his mother had gotten his old face back that was mutilated over the years.
Basically it was a petty act of revenge to kill his family and those whom he used to call friends as well, likely out of jealousy to the fact that if he cant have it no one can and he was trying to do it in such a way that starfleet would be powerless to stop them before it was too late. The problem with ru'afo is that his impatience ultimately cost him his chance and even gallatin who supported him all those years realized that his plan was mad to the point of lunacy.
Had starfleet known about the son'a being direct relatives of the ba'ku i doubt Dougherty would of been able to remain there under any circumstances as it would of been a violation of the prime directive to not interfere with other cultures, it is just as well it was not found earlier on.
Yup...
Of course, had those points been considered, there wouldn't've been a movie
I'm just re watching First Contact, and I have to say even after multiple viewings, it's still better than anything JJ has put forth.
Yes, I know there was some TRIBBLE ones (Alot of people hate Insurrection, but I like it). But focusing on First Contact, it just has that 'quality' about it that makes you want to keep watching.
Compare Gates McFadden to the 'obligatory semi naked chick' in into the Darkness, and she still far outshines her in beauty and acting ability.
Looking back to other films (TOS era) we have a connection with all of those actors (even those who had not been born, we watched the 3 seasons of TOS).
Some people say the JJ films are 'not Trek'. I would not say that is the case. Rather they are being judged upon 50+ years of series' in which we have 'watched' characters develop, before they entered the arena of films.
I feel all the actors for JJ 'verse' where perfectly cast (especially Spock) but it still never 'felt' like Star Trek.
When they remade Battlestar Galactica and I heard Starbuck would be a woman, I swore I would not watch it (what a load of TRIBBLE I thought) but when I DID watch it, it was pretty much a perfect 're imagination' of that franchise.
I just never 'got' that with the 'JJ' verse. That is not to say he was wrong in what he did.
But where does this 'feeling' come from??
How do we 'know' what is the right thing for a franchise?
I even confuse myself, I have alot of Treky friends who just LOVE what JJ has done, but I simply cannot understand it myself.
So... a bit of meandering pointless diatribe from myself.
Opinions welcome (if you can be bothered )
I guess it depends on the viewer because IMO - ST:FC (while the only real watchable TNG feature film as the rest of them felt like bad two hour TV episodes) was hardly better than either ST2009 or ST:ID.
Oh, and before you go calling me a 'new fan' <--- I've been watching Star trek first run since 1969 - saw myn first episode at age 6 and was hooked ever since. But as many examples in your post show, different folks like different things.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Comments
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
First Contact was okay. Borg time travel to prevent the future, along with the TNG crew meeting and helping Zefrem Cochrane, was a fun little excursion. But to people outside the fanbase, it was "Oh boy. Another Star Trek film. Yay...unh, no."
Perhaps the problem we face is Star Trek is too accessable. There is too much of it around and people have grown too accustomed to it being there. People have gotten too familair with it and like their favorite blanket, they never ever want it to change or grow or be different in any fashion. Star Trek has become comfort food.
By the 2d season of TNG, I stopped watching because it had become too predictable and was frankly more boring than watching paint dry. Jean-Luc never met an enemy he couldn't lull to sleep by pontificating at length about something or other. Who needs phasers when your most effective weapon is long windedness? Back that up with seven years of acute sensitivity training and we've got ourselves some real w(h)inners.
Then DS9 came along. Here was a Star Trek where everyone did not get along. They had the flaws of normal people and were not afraid to show them. I liked DS9. A lot. Then, it became all about the Dominion. "Oh noes! There is a fiercely fierce enemy on the other side of the wormhole who don't like us! What to do? Wait! We'll just defeat them by using the Prophets as a Deus Ex Machina! And to distract them, we'll throw out all our scruples and principles with the trash. Because by golly, we need the Romulans to help us! And if we have to murder a diplomat who is also a high ranking member of the Romulan government to get their help, then we'll do it without even a second thought and little chance of getting caught! And making biological weapons tailored to our enemy's greatest weakness are just the thing Starfleet and Federation ought to do.
Voyager was just plain laughable. Disparate groups pf people thrown together far from home who violate every tenet of Starfleet to get back there. Seven of Nine in that catsuit which was practically painted on, with camera angles and dialogue always chosen to exert maximum pressure on the over excited imaginations of men who quite frankly should have known better. And she was placed in the show because ratings were falling off. Perhaps a better title would have been Star Trek:Burlesque. Nope. Because burlesque has a point and is funny to boot. Never saw either in any episode of Voyager I forced myself to watch. I have been highly entertained about some of Voyager's most strident defenders decrying the "sexism" of TOS. Well, at least TOS was honest about the sexism.
By the time Enterprise rolled around, I escaped into the paperbacks and comics. Along with reruns of TOS. At least they wouldn't turn on me in unexpected ways.
I like JJTrek. One of my best experiences as a Star Trek fan occurred right after The 1st JJTrek film. There was group of people who all had the same idea after leaving the cinema. Head to the restaurant across the parking lot and grab a bite to eat. We began talking about the film during the walk and wound up sitting together in the IHOP. For most of them, it was their first experience with anything Trek and they had questions. Which I was more than happy to answer. They knew there was a lot of Star Trek around, but they had no idea there was so much of it. It was very enjoyable to encourage their interest and enthusiasm about all of Star Trek. I kept my opinions to myself. Because as new fans, they deserved the right to make their own minds about what parts of Star Trek they did and did not like.
You wanted an opinion, OP. This is mine.
Yes, this is why I think it would have been better to have "new" characters (e.g. Pike's crew before Spock, Kirk, etc.) for the JJ movies instead of trying to recreate Kirk, Spock, etc. People are too attached to Shatner as Kirk, Nimoy as Spock, etc. to see them as otherwise.
Yeah, a lot of non-fans are only vaguely aware of the Star Trek shows that came after TOS. They will have heard of Kirk, Spock, Scotty, etc., but maybe not of Picard, Data, Sisko, Worf, Janeway, etc.
And yes, I know it's blasphemy but I actually liked TMP. Even though it was similar to "The Changeling" I still found it very good. Throughout the film, especially with the Veger scenes, it gave a gloomy feeling of mystery surrounding the ship. Yes, the beginning was a little bit slow, but the rest more than made up for it.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Arguably, had Picard and co not interfered, and the mission had gone to plan, then the holoship would simply have left the Briar Patch, and everything continued, or, Ru'afo would have destroyed the holoship with Dougherty on board, and reported his loss to Starfleet as some tragic accident. He seemed restrained enough to not go crazy, until the point where Dougherty tried to terminate the mission... I think that was the point which really 'set him off'...
My character Tsin'xing
Basically it was a petty act of revenge to kill his family and those whom he used to call friends as well, likely out of jealousy to the fact that if he cant have it no one can and he was trying to do it in such a way that starfleet would be powerless to stop them before it was too late. The problem with ru'afo is that his impatience ultimately cost him his chance and even gallatin who supported him all those years realized that his plan was mad to the point of lunacy.
Had starfleet known about the son'a being direct relatives of the ba'ku i doubt Dougherty would of been able to remain there under any circumstances as it would of been a violation of the prime directive to not interfere with other cultures, it is just as well it was not found earlier on.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Of course, had those points been considered, there wouldn't've been a movie
Oh... good for you.
I guess it depends on the viewer because IMO - ST:FC (while the only real watchable TNG feature film as the rest of them felt like bad two hour TV episodes) was hardly better than either ST2009 or ST:ID.
Oh, and before you go calling me a 'new fan' <--- I've been watching Star trek first run since 1969 - saw myn first episode at age 6 and was hooked ever since. But as many examples in your post show, different folks like different things.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."