This. ISA is the best map for gauging what our ships are capable of, and more importantly, how the changes we make impact our builds. Min-maxers would love a better map, but at present, ISA is all we have. ISA affords predictability (control), near-constant combat, and close proximity to the rest of the team (accurate parsing).
If Cryptic came to the DPS crowd and said "help us make a new map to replace ISA," they would jump all over it. We would also like a map to accurately gauge individual DPS, but this would just be icing on the cake, since end-game content is focused on team-play.
As for queues being dead, this will persist until restrictions are placed on who can get into them. Many in the DPS crowd simply refuse to PuG anymore. Why would they when a pre-made with all competent players is just a few key strokes away? And while having a team where one person is doing 50K or more, and four team mates doing less than 10K can be problematic, the bigger issue is players not understanding HOW to run the map. And this isn't just an ISA problem. GGA, KSA, CSA, etc. all have this issue. But since they will never place any sort of restriction or ability cap on who can que for these runs, many players will simply opt for pre-mades.
I would also like to add that in the new skill system, we can spec into boosting team effectiveness via Coordination Protocols. combine this with the Ico set, Tactical fleet, and the other sources of buffs and debuffs that existed prior to 11.5, and what you are left with is a team that can do dish-out and survive more damage, which leads to better numbers.
So you guys enjoy DPS. Then Good for you. Now let the other people enjoy the game as well. Comparing Numbers is good for those who want them and enjoy them but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone want's the predictability and control of a preset team because most don't take things on a game like this seriously.
Personally if I want predictability and just to crunch numbers then I'm better off playing other games that would actually put me on a more official ranking and high rewards for my effort than just bragging rights for having a high DPS from an organization build by other players that in the end doesn't count to anything. Sure high DPS sounds good but for what in this game? Did cryptic suddenly give a reward for being the top DPSer for the game and announced it on the entire server?
If you have read my other posts I usually side with DPSer's and PvPer's because to me it's just how they want to have fun on things. But this post really kinda... ticked me.
Me, I'm just happy that most players are doing good with the game and actually enjoying it with their new found DPS. No one is stuck any more with what the elites would say for them to do and just go out there and have fun like what this game is mean't to be.
And yes you might be right, many of the "DPS Crowds" may not want to PUG anymore but who cares? Those who think they are better than the PUG people can stick to their "Kind" and it wouldn't matter since it doesn't mean anyone on the PUG can't finish a queue without this "DPS Crowd".
Sure some of them may fail miserably. But they could learn and have fun doing it. Because I think that's the one of the most important thing DPS Elites have forgot: Learning is half the fun... and sometimes people are stubborn to actually listen to people who only wants to see things their way and not the other way around. And yes I'm talking to those DPS Elites who keep blunting how stupid their team in PUG's like the people around them have been born to please them.
So to those who would enjoy DPS and numbers then do so. Who knows maybe Cryptic would eventually made something you may be preoccupied with later. But don't deny anyone else from having their fun. If you don't like what's happening on PUG then just do a premade team. And don't enter PUGs anymore.
If you guys still insist and still complain on how stupid your PUG team is then it's your fault for doing PUG, you already know things like that can happen and you still went through with it. Are you some kind of TRIBBLE? or how easy it is, then wouldn't it be the same for the people who also have high DPS too if you team with them? Then the question here is do you cry foul over the fact that you're now not that special anymore?
To every one else. This is a game. Enjoy it the way YOU WANT IT. It's ok to listen to people but don't let it be the driving force behind you. Find the way you are happy in playing the game. May it be through DPS, PvP, PvE or just plain talking all day to people. For the rest who are too serious... Get a life. Life is too damn short to be so stuck on something that it blinds you from seeing what is important. Life is already serious enough for the rest of us and that is something that doesn't need to be in a game.
On that note Apologies if my words sound harsh but I just want people to know what I think and perhaps... Yes just perhaps what others may think as well. Although I cannot for one say that some people think the way I am but who knows right?
This. ISA is the best map for gauging what our ships are capable of, and more importantly, how the changes we make impact our builds. Min-maxers would love a better map, but at present, ISA is all we have. ISA affords predictability (control), near-constant combat, and close proximity to the rest of the team (accurate parsing).
If Cryptic came to the DPS crowd and said "help us make a new map to replace ISA," they would jump all over it. We would also like a map to accurately gauge individual DPS, but this would just be icing on the cake, since end-game content is focused on team-play.
As for queues being dead, this will persist until restrictions are placed on who can get into them. Many in the DPS crowd simply refuse to PuG anymore. Why would they when a pre-made with all competent players is just a few key strokes away? And while having a team where one person is doing 50K or more, and four team mates doing less than 10K can be problematic, the bigger issue is players not understanding HOW to run the map. And this isn't just an ISA problem. GGA, KSA, CSA, etc. all have this issue. But since they will never place any sort of restriction or ability cap on who can que for these runs, many players will simply opt for pre-mades.
I would also like to add that in the new skill system, we can spec into boosting team effectiveness via Coordination Protocols. combine this with the Ico set, Tactical fleet, and the other sources of buffs and debuffs that existed prior to 11.5, and what you are left with is a team that can do dish-out and survive more damage, which leads to better numbers.
So you guys enjoy DPS. Then Good for you. Now let the other people enjoy the game as well. Comparing Numbers is good for those who want them and enjoy them but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone want's the predictability and control of a preset team because most don't take things on a game like this seriously.
Personally if I want predictability and just to crunch numbers then I'm better off playing other games that would actually put me on a more official ranking and high rewards for my effort than just bragging rights for having a high DPS from an organization build by other players that in the end doesn't count to anything. Sure high DPS sounds good but for what in this game? Did cryptic suddenly give a reward for being the top DPSer for the game and announced it on the entire server?
If you have read my other posts I usually side with DPSer's and PvPer's because to me it's just how they want to have fun on things. But this post really kinda... ticked me.
Me, I'm just happy that most players are doing good with the game and actually enjoying it with their new found DPS. No one is stuck any more with what the elites would say for them to do and just go out there and have fun like what this game is mean't to be.
And yes you might be right, many of the "DPS Crowds" may not want to PUG anymore but who cares? Those who think they are better than the PUG people can stick to their "Kind" and it wouldn't matter since it doesn't mean anyone on the PUG can't finish a queue without this "DPS Crowd".
Sure some of them may fail miserably. But they could learn and have fun doing it. Because I think that's the one of the most important thing DPS Elites have forgot: Learning is half the fun... and sometimes people are stubborn to actually listen to people who only wants to see things their way and not the other way around. And yes I'm talking to those DPS Elites who keep blunting how stupid their team in PUG's like the people around them have been born to please them.
So to those who would enjoy DPS and numbers then do so. Who knows maybe Cryptic would eventually made something you may be preoccupied with later. But don't deny anyone else from having their fun. If you don't like what's happening on PUG then just do a premade team. And don't enter PUGs anymore.
If you guys still insist and still complain on how stupid your PUG team is then it's your fault for doing PUG, you already know things like that can happen and you still went through with it. Are you some kind of TRIBBLE? or how easy it is, then wouldn't it be the same for the people who also have high DPS too if you team with them? Then the question here is do you cry foul over the fact that you're now not that special anymore?
To every one else. This is a game. Enjoy it the way YOU WANT IT. It's ok to listen to people but don't let it be the driving force behind you. Find the way you are happy in playing the game. May it be through DPS, PvP, PvE or just plain talking all day to people. For the rest who are too serious... Get a life. Life is too damn short to be so stuck on something that it blinds you from seeing what is important. Life is already serious enough for the rest of us and that is something that doesn't need to be in a game.
On that note Apologies if my words sound harsh but I just want people to know what I think and perhaps... Yes just perhaps what others may think as well. Although I cannot for one say that some people think the way I am but who knows right?
That's all fine and dandy, until people who feel "learning is half the fun" push their (self known) ineptitude upon others trying to get rewards. You know who suffers the most? The people NOT in the "elite dps" category. Theones who are fine with being "competent," and are just going on their merry way- able to do advanced, but not carry 4 people who just want to "have fun."
See, then 4 people are having fun at another's expense. Why is it that people can complain about afk penalties "bcuz of teh dps goonz" but they are immune from criticism concerning why they are queuing for advanced content- when they themselves proudly proclaim there is nothing advanced about them?
I still, for the life of me, can't fathom potentially ruining someone elses experience by doing content above my level on a whim, ON PURPOSE, unless I was knowingly leeching off others, or trolling. When Borg Elites are released, then you can complain about the dirty elite DPSers, because I guarantee you they won't be in advanced anymore. Then I guarantee the cries of "its too hard" will be heard again, because no one is coming into failPUGs anymore carrying everyone.
I think the problem isn't that people are performing well now. It's that they perform a little too well. Advanced is supposed to be some sort of challenge - especially if it's the highest difficulty available for a certain mission, be it ISA, CSA, CCA, Undine Assault or Azure Nebula -, which is currently isn't.
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything. But those who are playing advanced, shouldn't be able to vaporise everything with great ease just because a skill revamp made them twice as powerful when they were already powerful enough before said revamp.
Of course we're all happy when we can play the missions we like, but I do hope that we also all realise that there has to be some sort of challenge - and that it's kind of ridiculous that everyone and their mother so to speak can complete what is supposed to be content for the above average player in only a fraction of the time a mission was supposed to take. Right now, there's nothing 'advanced' anymore about advanced missions and I'm still assuming that this is the result of unintended buffs, resulting from the revamp.
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
I think the problem isn't that people are performing well now. It's that they perform a little too well. Advanced is supposed to be some sort of challenge
I actually have to chime in and agree now. I'm an engineer, a pretty good one, my average dps before revamp was like 55 to 60k, without even changing all that much in my skills, my avg dps now is easily 75 to 80k.
But the real problem i see now, is almost every advanced que i do the last few days, just doing pugs too, has a 125 to 150k dps Tac in it, that vaporizes everything in seconds, and this game getting really freakin boring really fast.
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
I only play PUGS and every now and then I parse
Yes, there are still people who are not performing well. But let's not talk exceptions here, you'll always find an exceptional case somewhere. I was making a general statement, based on the average PUG I've encountered in the past week, since the skill revamp.
I think the problem isn't that people are performing well now. It's that they perform a little too well. Advanced is supposed to be some sort of challenge
I actually have to chime in and agree now. I'm an engineer, a pretty good one, my average dps before revamp was like 55 to 60k, without even changing all that much in my skills, my avg dps now is easily 75 to 80k.
But the real problem i see now, is almost every advanced que i do the last few days, just doing pugs too, has a 125 to 150k dps Tac in it, that vaporizes everything in seconds, and this game getting really freakin boring really fast.
Yup I've seen those. In - rough estimate - 20-25% of the ISA PUGs I've been in since last Tuesday, there was at least one player doing over 90k. One mission even had two of these players.
Yup I've seen those. In - rough estimate - 20-25% of the ISA PUGs I've been in since last Tuesday, there was at least one player doing over 90k. One mission even had two of these players.
Saw 3 people easily doing 150k, or more, in a Korfez Elite today too, also a pug, which is supposed to be elite. I'm not bashing them, i applaud them for creating amazing builds and knowing how to use them, but i barely got off a shot before everything was dead. I just not seeing a lot of point to even playing lately, when most of the time i barely get to do anything. I'm not just doing the queues to get rewards, I do also do them because they're fun, but just watching as a few players vaporize everything in seconds, is not fun at all.
I'm actually thrilled that the skill revamp made alot of average player alot better, but it made the top ones insanely better, and the gap between what a Tac can do and an already very high dps engineer like me WAY wider.
So you guys enjoy DPS. Then Good for you. Now let the other people enjoy the game as well. Comparing Numbers is good for those who want them and enjoy them but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone want's the predictability and control of a preset team because most don't take things on a game like this seriously.
Personally if I want predictability and just to crunch numbers then I'm better off playing other games that would actually put me on a more official ranking and high rewards for my effort than just bragging rights for having a high DPS from an organization build by other players that in the end doesn't count to anything. Sure high DPS sounds good but for what in this game? Did cryptic suddenly give a reward for being the top DPSer for the game and announced it on the entire server?
So who is dictating how to have fun? Honestly, I'm not sure what in my post your're taking an issue with. No one is stopping anyone from having fun.
If you have read my other posts I usually side with DPSer's and PvPer's because to me it's just how they want to have fun on things. But this post really kinda... ticked me.
I'm not calling you out, nor am I saying you're anti-DPS. Nothing was directed at you.
Me, I'm just happy that most players are doing good with the game and actually enjoying it with their new found DPS. No one is stuck any more with what the elites would say for them to do and just go out there and have fun like what this game is mean't to be.
And yes you might be right, many of the "DPS Crowds" may not want to PUG anymore but who cares? Those who think they are better than the PUG people can stick to their "Kind" and it wouldn't matter since it doesn't mean anyone on the PUG can't finish a queue without this "DPS Crowd".
This isn't an issue of elitism. This is an ability issue. Advance and elite queues were designed to be hard/challenging, and to encourage players to spend in order to get better equipment. But as I said, the bigger issue with PuGs is a lack of knowledge on how to run them properly. I myself went into an ISA and had no idea of what I was doing. Caught some serious flak from some a**hole who decided it was better to belittle me rather than explain what I had done wrong. So i went an looked it up. Walhthrough guides are a staple of gaming, and it wasn't hard to find.
Sure some of them may fail miserably. But they could learn and have fun doing it. Because I think that's the one of the most important thing DPS Elites have forgot: Learning is half the fun... and sometimes people are stubborn to actually listen to people who only wants to see things their way and not the other way around. And yes I'm talking to those DPS Elites who keep blunting how stupid their team in PUG's like the people around them have been born to please them.
Its an MMO. There are going to people like that regardless, and such people are not exclusive to the DPS crowd.
So to those who would enjoy DPS and numbers then do so. Who knows maybe Cryptic would eventually made something you may be preoccupied with later. But don't deny anyone else from having their fun. If you don't like what's happening on PUG then just do a premade team. And don't enter PUGs anymore.
If you guys still insist and still complain on how stupid your PUG team is then it's your fault for doing PUG, you already know things like that can happen and you still went through with it. Are you some kind of TRIBBLE? or how easy it is, then wouldn't it be the same for the people who also have high DPS too if you team with them? Then the question here is do you cry foul over the fact that you're now not that special anymore?
Again, no one is denying anyone anything. And don't assume that DPSers are the only ones who can be jerks. I tried to explain to someone what they had done wrong, and for my trouble, I got a nasty response and ignored. As for me, I chase DPS because I enjoy it, not to feel special. It's a game, and even if i were somehow able to climb to the top of the DPS mountain, it would mean squat outside of this game.
To every one else. This is a game. Enjoy it the way YOU WANT IT. It's ok to listen to people but don't let it be the driving force behind you. Find the way you are happy in playing the game. May it be through DPS, PvP, PvE or just plain talking all day to people. For the rest who are too serious... Get a life. Life is too damn short to be so stuck on something that it blinds you from seeing what is important. Life is already serious enough for the rest of us and that is something that doesn't need to be in a game.
On that note Apologies if my words sound harsh but I just want people to know what I think and perhaps... Yes just perhaps what others may think as well. Although I cannot for one say that some people think the way I am but who knows right?
No apologies necessary. You are entitled to your opinion.
DPS issues aside, I'm starting to wonder if there may be a bug in there somewhere...
On the tanking side, I have started noticing it seems inconsistant. Take Crystaline Advance, for example:
Running my Tac in his T5U Patrol Escort yesterday and face tanking the antiproton wave at 4km without a sctratch, while vaporized at 8km when the second wave came. I have noticed similar things in the new RA, where I can have a vessel take multiple hits from the Na'Kuhl doom cones of destruction without issue, but in a few minutes time, a single hit pops me.
The second wave has always been more powerful than the first one. Or at least it has been for a very long time.
As for the Na'kuhl: well, they're not long enough in the game yet to make a comparison so can't really decide on that. It may have been an unlucky crit. Unlucky for you of course, I'm sure they considered it to be their lucky day
DPS issues aside, I'm starting to wonder if there may be a bug in there somewhere...
On the tanking side, I have started noticing it seems inconsistant.
Take Crystaline Advance, for example:
Running my Tac in his T5U Patrol Escort yesterday and face tanking the antiproton wave at 4km without a sctratch, while vaporized at 8km when the second wave came.
I have noticed similar things in the new RA, where I can have a vessel take multiple hits from the Na'Kuhl doom cones of destruction without issue, but in a few minutes time, a single hit pops me.
Has anyone else noticed anything like this?
I call it the Sniper Bug lol . Happened to me twice. One on Crystalline the other and this will sound funny, the Borg Red Alert. I don't think it's an Isolated case. Maybe it's the same bug as those torp on Terak Nor. Seriously I can solo the Borg Red Alert alone but out of no where with full shield and Hull... Boom! I tried looking at the damage data but nothing was registered. I thought that my game just froze for a few secs but it didn't since my ship didn't even do the back track when there is a delay or a lag.
That's all fine and dandy, until people who feel "learning is half the fun" push their (self known) ineptitude upon others trying to get rewards. You know who suffers the most? The people NOT in the "elite dps" category. Theones who are fine with being "competent," and are just going on their merry way- able to do advanced, but not carry 4 people who just want to "have fun."
See, then 4 people are having fun at another's expense. Why is it that people can complain about afk penalties "bcuz of teh dps goonz" but they are immune from criticism concerning why they are queuing for advanced content- when they themselves proudly proclaim there is nothing advanced about them?
I still, for the life of me, can't fathom potentially ruining someone elses experience by doing content above my level on a whim, ON PURPOSE, unless I was knowingly leeching off others, or trolling. When Borg Elites are released, then you can complain about the dirty elite DPSers, because I guarantee you they won't be in advanced anymore. Then I guarantee the cries of "its too hard" will be heard again, because no one is coming into failPUGs anymore carrying everyone.
You see this is one of the reason why it irks me when people who would like to do DPS or etch gets on a PUG and complains a lot still knowing it's a PUG.
1. How can you or anyone else be sure that those people do even know each other?
2. How can you or anyone else know that they are not new into this kind of play? The advance or Elite or even the game?
3. Do everyone on that PUG goes to the forum? Even knows the forum? or Read any guide related to the game?
4. How can any of us know that they are just there to "Have Fun" and not learn?
See can go on and on on the things that so wrong with every assumption any old or veteran players and those who pride themselves to research the game or any other games but in the end it boils down to two things:
1. We are not always certain of what we think about others as much as they are not certain on what they think about us.
2. Not everyone has the same privilege of time or situation going on their lives so it means what you invest on something no matter what form it is in this game would also be the same to others and vise versa.
1st one is really simple. Unless we actually ask them we won't know if they are even grouped in a PUG or not. So if they fail we cannot all blame them. It's not that everyone of them tried to be bad at it it just turns out like that. I remembered an entire week of getting a bad PUG but never really got angry at all. Seriously. And I was on a sched of grinding Mats for the up grade weekend and I wanted to craft some ground and space equipment to upgrade. I didn't gathered enough materials for that weekend and I have to stop playing after the event since my work leave is only for about a week and 3 days. My planned got ruined but I know when doing PUG's sometimes things like this happened. It's just the way it is.
I could have easily made a premade group but sometimes premade groups are more taxing most specially if the ones you have to chose from are elitist who only wants to pick queue they want. In the end I joined the PUG knowing that I do not know how will it turn out but it's fine whatever the result since I know what am I getting at and do not expect anything at all and just pray for a good roll on my PUG team. And I do know from experience that there are others like me who just laughed it out even if the team fails because we know it's a PUG and no sense trying talk bad about the random team. Instead I sometimes talk to them in a way that they will not be intimidated to let them know where it went wrong and to point them to things that they might have known. Because that to me is a way of real player should do who not only cares for the game but for the growth of the community.
But don't get me wrong here though. I'm not a very patient man myself but due to the fact that I always remember the facts that I was once like them and have received the bitter end of elitist that I do not do the same as those moronic people did or say to me and lastly because I know that in the end we are still separated in a virtual space and that is one reason I should not judge another so easily. Who knows what reason they have.
The 2nd is all about life's little privileges and situation. Do they have a fast internet? If it's not then maybe that's the reason why they don't seem to move at all. Or maybe they got lagged or something. This appended to me 3 times before and my net is actually decent. I got a penalty for being "AFKed" when I'm not even moving on my screen even if I had my ship at full impulse already.
Maybe some just got from work and just want to play without having to read on theories etch and want's to just blast things to forget the stress of work or maybe school. Heck if even in a simple giveaway that cryptic does most people who come here on the forums complain about missing it because they didn't read the notice or it was even updated or there was no contact given them about the event ten I can assure you most of the people don't even really bother to read guides nor search for them. Is this bad? Yes it is but we can't compare our situation with them. They have their own life. We can only read on what they say and try to reason with them and if that doesn't work then oh well. Life goes on.
So you see I don't agree on the reason that you gave. There are too much factors for one to lump everyone on the PUG as the "4 others who just wants to have fun" and "That One Expense". Certainly there are those who might fit your description as it is true that there are Jerk DPSer's out there but in both situation not everyone is like that on both sides of the fence.
So you guys enjoy DPS. Then Good for you. Now let the other people enjoy the game as well. Comparing Numbers is good for those who want them and enjoy them but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone want's the predictability and control of a preset team because most don't take things on a game like this seriously.
Personally if I want predictability and just to crunch numbers then I'm better off playing other games that would actually put me on a more official ranking and high rewards for my effort than just bragging rights for having a high DPS from an organization build by other players that in the end doesn't count to anything. Sure high DPS sounds good but for what in this game? Did cryptic suddenly give a reward for being the top DPSer for the game and announced it on the entire server?
So who is dictating how to have fun? Honestly, I'm not sure what in my post your're taking an issue with. No one is stopping anyone from having fun.
If you have read my other posts I usually side with DPSer's and PvPer's because to me it's just how they want to have fun on things. But this post really kinda... ticked me.
I'm not calling you out, nor am I saying you're anti-DPS. Nothing was directed at you.
Me, I'm just happy that most players are doing good with the game and actually enjoying it with their new found DPS. No one is stuck any more with what the elites would say for them to do and just go out there and have fun like what this game is mean't to be.
And yes you might be right, many of the "DPS Crowds" may not want to PUG anymore but who cares? Those who think they are better than the PUG people can stick to their "Kind" and it wouldn't matter since it doesn't mean anyone on the PUG can't finish a queue without this "DPS Crowd".
This isn't an issue of elitism. This is an ability issue. Advance and elite queues were designed to be hard/challenging, and to encourage players to spend in order to get better equipment. But as I said, the bigger issue with PuGs is a lack of knowledge on how to run them properly. I myself went into an ISA and had no idea of what I was doing. Caught some serious flak from some a**hole who decided it was better to belittle me rather than explain what I had done wrong. So i went an looked it up. Walhthrough guides are a staple of gaming, and it wasn't hard to find.
Sure some of them may fail miserably. But they could learn and have fun doing it. Because I think that's the one of the most important thing DPS Elites have forgot: Learning is half the fun... and sometimes people are stubborn to actually listen to people who only wants to see things their way and not the other way around. And yes I'm talking to those DPS Elites who keep blunting how stupid their team in PUG's like the people around them have been born to please them.
Its an MMO. There are going to people like that regardless, and such people are not exclusive to the DPS crowd.
So to those who would enjoy DPS and numbers then do so. Who knows maybe Cryptic would eventually made something you may be preoccupied with later. But don't deny anyone else from having their fun. If you don't like what's happening on PUG then just do a premade team. And don't enter PUGs anymore.
If you guys still insist and still complain on how stupid your PUG team is then it's your fault for doing PUG, you already know things like that can happen and you still went through with it. Are you some kind of TRIBBLE? or how easy it is, then wouldn't it be the same for the people who also have high DPS too if you team with them? Then the question here is do you cry foul over the fact that you're now not that special anymore?
Again, no one is denying anyone anything. And don't assume that DPSers are the only ones who can be jerks. I tried to explain to someone what they had done wrong, and for my trouble, I got a nasty response and ignored. As for me, I chase DPS because I enjoy it, not to feel special. It's a game, and even if i were somehow able to climb to the top of the DPS mountain, it would mean squat outside of this game.
To every one else. This is a game. Enjoy it the way YOU WANT IT. It's ok to listen to people but don't let it be the driving force behind you. Find the way you are happy in playing the game. May it be through DPS, PvP, PvE or just plain talking all day to people. For the rest who are too serious... Get a life. Life is too damn short to be so stuck on something that it blinds you from seeing what is important. Life is already serious enough for the rest of us and that is something that doesn't need to be in a game.
On that note Apologies if my words sound harsh but I just want people to know what I think and perhaps... Yes just perhaps what others may think as well. Although I cannot for one say that some people think the way I am but who knows right?
No apologies necessary. You are entitled to your opinion.
I have read your comment but I would just address a few of it. Deny it or not, in reality we tend to sometimes act too passionately about what we think should people do that we most often look like Elitist. I know from first hand experience. when I was new to the game I played rarely and had at times fallen to people with "Elitism". Some of them I know they didn't mean it yet some are just plain jerks. When I've learned the ropes so to speak, I tried passing my knowledge to others but for some reason I seem to put-off people. Wanting to know what the problem is I invited a friend of mine to the game and had him observe how I "Talk" to others. Since he knew me personally, his comment to me when I asked how it looked shocked me. She told me that I'm showing signs of Elitism that makes those who I'm talking to seem be little or gave them an overload of information. She does know me a lot and knows
that I wasn't aiming to be like that, which I hate but the way I acted so passionately over it made me loose sight of what's important: Connecting to people. Hence I changed my approach.
This is an MMO. Aside from the fact that we really don't know who is it we are talking to on the other sides of our screens, we do not know how much they would respond to us. Granted we can't please everyone but it doesn't mean we can't try connecting with them. It's the sense of Knowledge Overload and Talking too much of what we think without connecting first to others that really separates the people of this game. If we don't try our best to connect with people then no matter how much good intent we have for others would only make us look the Bad guys.
I'm a Guilty person in terms that I also love doing high DPS and love PvP as well. But not to a point of obsession. Heck my version of doing high DPS is even far more bizarre because I tend to push what damage low tier stuff can do or those things people think off as useless to begin with. That's where I get mu kicks and doing it on PUGs no less. I know suicidal. But just on a good note here I do not do those kinds of things on PUG's that I know people are serious to finish. But when I do I usually have someone who I know can carry the team just in case I failed miserably on what I'm trying to do.
I'm not saying people should do it my way in order to make other people who dislike the DPSer's or the PvPer's like them. We all have our ways of communicating and expressing ourselves. What am I saying is I think we could do better if we think 1st if what we're about to say to others so that we may not be misinterpreted as Snobs or Elitist. Only when we all recognize this then perhaps... Yes Perhaps we might actually have a better game community. Because in a MMO it's how we could connect to others that may prove to be the best experience we could have in a the game.
Anyway again apologies for any harsh words I might have said to the people I quoted here. Believe me I'm not thinking of anything bad or harshness as I was typing this but since we are not talking to each other directly and I do know words written can be misinterpreted as easily as talking directly I apologize for any misinterpretation this post may seem.
Running my Tac in his T5U Patrol Escort yesterday and face tanking the antiproton wave at 4km without a sctratch, while vaporized at 8km when the second wave came.
...
Has anyone else noticed anything like this?
The second wave has always been more powerful than the first one. Or at least it has been for a very long time.
Because the 'waves' charge up from what players are throwing at it while the crystal is in the charge up phase, the second wave is typically harder because everyone has buffed up to the max by the time it starts charging and everyone is a few km from it with all their pets out and gizmos active.
If everyone hit F1 and stopped firing at it, it'd do next to no damage.
With everyone doing more damage now, I'd imagine it hits back harder now too because no one stops firing.
I'm not saying people should do it my way in order to make other people who dislike the DPSer's or the PvPer's like them. We all have our ways of communicating and expressing ourselves. What am I saying is I think we could do better if we think 1st if what we're about to say to others so that we may not be misinterpreted as Snobs or Elitist. Only when we all recognize this then perhaps... Yes Perhaps we might actually have a better game community. Because in a MMO it's how we could connect to others that may prove to be the best experience we could have in a the game.
I can't speak for PvP as I don't really engage in that sort of playstyle outside my fleet. But as for the DPS crowd, or rather community, it's not the exclusive few people assume it is. Go to the STOBuilds subrddit and look at the hundreds or even thousands of posts where new and veteran players alike ask for the same advice, on the same ships, week after week. As long as the one who is asking puts some effort into their post, they will get the help they are looking for. Hell, even if they don't put much thought or effort into it, someone is bound to offer some suggestions. We like having new people join the "game" because that means we have more people to run with, and they can add new perspectives, and ask questions that haven't been asked before or since a significant change was made to the game. The "dirty DPSers" that most people complain about are the trolls who hang out in Zone chat spouting off bad or out-dated information and swear that it's gospel.
I no longer think power creep is an issue. I did before, but not anymore.
You have to stop looking at the game and comparing numbers on the high end. The people who do over 50k DPS may be more than before, but they are still a very small number in the player base. Whenever I run an ISA, it is still not uncommon to have 3 or even 4 people running less than 7kDPS. Some even do 2k or less. In CCA it's even worse. I've clocked people doing less than 300DPS. I even clocked someone doing less than 1 DPS.
What power creep has done so far is make PUGs a little less risky. While very low DPS players still exist, there are more of them that do 10-15k. That's a good thing IMO since it allows these players to competent enough to join other more difficult queues without dragging a team down. In this case, the power creep has been good.
For those running into multiple 6-digit DPS players in ISA, the only reason those guys are PUGging is that the new patch introduced a ton of lag into the game making "channel" runs pretty much unplayable. If you think lag in PUGs are bad, you have to see how it is inside a DPS channel run. Fix the lag, and these players will go back into their own little DPS channels.
What the top 1% need are more elite queues. We've been asking for that for months. I really hope that Cryptic introduces more content that is in-line with the current top end.
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
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There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
Yeah I'm a bit disappointed with this change too. I really preferred it when you needed to have a good balanced team to do it instead of just powering through it.
I still remember the 1st time I ran it was with the Aggronauts and our balanced team (while not the highest in ISA DPS) went through it smoothly. My 2nd time was with a team of very high DPS-75000 players (a few from the top-10 DPS at the time) and everyone got wiped the moment they hit FAW.
There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
Then do it with a 10k team or pug it if laughing hurts too much. My friends and I took two pugs yesterday and had quite a good and challenging match.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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But the real problem i see now, is almost every advanced que i do the last few days, just doing pugs too, has a 125 to 150k dps Tac in it, that vaporizes everything in seconds, and this game getting really freakin boring really fast.
If only everyone saw their DPS doubled: I'd be in 100k right now! But, of course, only a very few people, like you, report such outlandish claims.
I'm all for nerfing you, btw. But if you nerf everyone, then the vast majority will simply do half the DPS they did before.
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
Yes, probably me for one. Because whilst my torpedo boat is perfectly capable of dealing respectable DPS (in concert with high-powered Sci abilities) when everything is already dead before my torpedoes got anywhere close it IS going to make me look pathetic now, isn't it.
When do you fire your torpedoes in ISA? At what range from your targets? How fast do you fly? How many points in Impulse expertise do you have?
I’m not an expert in torpedoes but know my way with cannons. They require a bit more than just firing them to be effective too.
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Yesterday I was ina Nah'kul red allert. I was with my science captain in a Scryer and there were a couple of escorts, some pilot escorts, a risian escort was there too. Good builds, because I had to work really hard to get some hits in. It looks to me the whole mission took about a minute, but most likely it was about two minutes.
Sometimes I warp into a Borg red allert just to help with the final blow for the Unimatrix. Those scenarios take only a couple of seconds. Is there anybody that likes this kind of gameplay? BTW, I think I can solo these Borg allerts. I am talking about builds in my case with mk XII gear. I won't do it in two or three minutes, but 10 minutes for the Unimatrix should be enough.
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
Yes, probably me for one. Because whilst my torpedo boat is perfectly capable of dealing respectable DPS (in concert with high-powered Sci abilities) when everything is already dead before my torpedoes got anywhere close it IS going to make me look pathetic now, isn't it.
When do you fire your torpedoes in ISA? At what range from your targets? How fast do you fly? How many points in Impulse expertise do you have?
I’m not an expert in torpedoes but know my way with cannons. They require a bit more than just firing them to be effective too.
Don't know how many points, but I generally fly fast enough that once fired the torpedoes, laughably, often wind up flying behind me rather than in front.
I understand, my trouble is often that I dont know in ISA pugs how good my team is compared to me so in short how aggressively I should or can play. That’s why I always pay close attention how a team deals with the start critters.
You are a sci and love grav wells. I use them a lot for my cannons as I need them to get critters in my arc of firing. If you have 2 points in control expertise and engage the romulan tier 5 reput power this should be enough to swallow the entire opening critters of isa. My first suggestion would be to do just that.
-> head in full impulse fast
-> hit romulan tier 5 rep power
-> launch garv well at cube
-> hold at close proximity in front of cube (lets say 5km) for the spheres to be sucked
-> launch torpedos when spheres are in.
It takes only a few seconds at best for the spheres to be attracted to the well. Basically the same time the faw scimis need to do their cloak/de-cloak thingy for their damage buff. Even if they manage a few shots first (what should be good to remove the critter's shields for your torpedos) I really cannot imagine that your torpedo spread 3 does not find any left over targets then.
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The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
First of all, this isn't just about me. Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything. Sure, in the short term you'll have fun with this new situation, but ultimately it's bad for the game as it will only drive new players away when they see that most of the content in the game is practically a joke.
Do you really think it was ever intended to be this easy? To complete advanced content, earn resources at the laughable rates and times we have come to? You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective. This alone proves that ridiculous instances such as 1-minute ISA's were never supposed to happen.
To answer your question: I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play. Advanced should pose some sort of challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be the case that you, I or anyone else are shooting through enemies before you even realised they were there. I also enjoy ISA PUGs every now and then. If there are no 90k DPS monsters flying around in it, that is. I can't imagine I'm the only one experiencing this problem.
Like I said, this is about game balance. This isn't about one specific queue or me having to find new challenges, it's about a serious game-wide issue. And issues don't get solved just by looking for ways to get around them.
Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
Which just translates to "I did 40k before the skill revamp, now I do 60k, so everyone needs to be nerfed."
Like I said, my DPS only went up marginally, consistent with the more offensive choices I made, affored by the new revamp, nothing more. My DPS didn't magically double, or I'd be one 'of those 100k DPS monsters flying around' as well.
Rather than the immediate cry for blanket nerfs, if, and only IF, some people suddenly had their DPS doubled, the Devs should look into the specific causes of their specific builds, and not just nerf everyone.
Even if my small DPS-increase were reduced to what I had before, all your proposal would accomplish is having given me the same DPS I had prior to the revamp, but with a significantly weaker ship as the result of choices I made to get to a somewhat higher DPS. And I didn't sign up for a 'bait & switch' like that.
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
First of all, this isn't just about me. Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything. Sure, in the short term you'll have fun with this new situation, but ultimately it's bad for the game as it will only drive new players away when they see that most of the content in the game is practically a joke.
Do you really think it was ever intended to be this easy? To complete advanced content, earn resources at the laughable rates and times we have come to? You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective. This alone proves that ridiculous instances such as 1-minute ISA's were never supposed to happen.
To answer your question: I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play. Advanced should pose some sort of challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be the case that you, I or anyone else are shooting through enemies before you even realised they were there. I also enjoy ISA PUGs every now and then. If there are no 90k DPS monsters flying around in it, that is. I can't imagine I'm the only one experiencing this problem.
Like I said, this is about game balance. This isn't about one specific queue or me having to find new challenges, it's about a serious game-wide issue. And issues don't get solved just by looking for ways to get around them.
I’m afraid you are fighting a lost cause then. You can’t stop the drive of mmopg players to get better or to play to win. You can’t also stop cryptic’s strategy to generate income out of this drive.
If you like this game and want to play it, all you can do is adapt or move away. But quite frankly if a difficulty setting has become too easy for a player picking the next one would be nothing but natural.
Considering how few players tend to space elites I think the wide mass in this game is far away from reaching this point so I bet we look at yet more power creep in the future. The alternative would be another Delta Rising which led to the exodus out of the queues. And not because they became too easy but rather the opposite.
Considering we have enough players around that have trouble doing the latest FE or the new red alert I think encountering a 90Ker on a map one difficulty setting below the stuff you or he could run feels like a luxury problem.
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Comments
So you guys enjoy DPS. Then Good for you. Now let the other people enjoy the game as well. Comparing Numbers is good for those who want them and enjoy them but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone want's the predictability and control of a preset team because most don't take things on a game like this seriously.
Personally if I want predictability and just to crunch numbers then I'm better off playing other games that would actually put me on a more official ranking and high rewards for my effort than just bragging rights for having a high DPS from an organization build by other players that in the end doesn't count to anything. Sure high DPS sounds good but for what in this game? Did cryptic suddenly give a reward for being the top DPSer for the game and announced it on the entire server?
If you have read my other posts I usually side with DPSer's and PvPer's because to me it's just how they want to have fun on things. But this post really kinda... ticked me.
Me, I'm just happy that most players are doing good with the game and actually enjoying it with their new found DPS. No one is stuck any more with what the elites would say for them to do and just go out there and have fun like what this game is mean't to be.
And yes you might be right, many of the "DPS Crowds" may not want to PUG anymore but who cares? Those who think they are better than the PUG people can stick to their "Kind" and it wouldn't matter since it doesn't mean anyone on the PUG can't finish a queue without this "DPS Crowd".
Sure some of them may fail miserably. But they could learn and have fun doing it. Because I think that's the one of the most important thing DPS Elites have forgot: Learning is half the fun... and sometimes people are stubborn to actually listen to people who only wants to see things their way and not the other way around. And yes I'm talking to those DPS Elites who keep blunting how stupid their team in PUG's like the people around them have been born to please them.
So to those who would enjoy DPS and numbers then do so. Who knows maybe Cryptic would eventually made something you may be preoccupied with later. But don't deny anyone else from having their fun. If you don't like what's happening on PUG then just do a premade team. And don't enter PUGs anymore.
If you guys still insist and still complain on how stupid your PUG team is then it's your fault for doing PUG, you already know things like that can happen and you still went through with it. Are you some kind of TRIBBLE? or how easy it is, then wouldn't it be the same for the people who also have high DPS too if you team with them? Then the question here is do you cry foul over the fact that you're now not that special anymore?
To every one else. This is a game. Enjoy it the way YOU WANT IT. It's ok to listen to people but don't let it be the driving force behind you. Find the way you are happy in playing the game. May it be through DPS, PvP, PvE or just plain talking all day to people. For the rest who are too serious... Get a life. Life is too damn short to be so stuck on something that it blinds you from seeing what is important. Life is already serious enough for the rest of us and that is something that doesn't need to be in a game.
On that note Apologies if my words sound harsh but I just want people to know what I think and perhaps... Yes just perhaps what others may think as well. Although I cannot for one say that some people think the way I am but who knows right?
That's all fine and dandy, until people who feel "learning is half the fun" push their (self known) ineptitude upon others trying to get rewards. You know who suffers the most? The people NOT in the "elite dps" category. Theones who are fine with being "competent," and are just going on their merry way- able to do advanced, but not carry 4 people who just want to "have fun."
See, then 4 people are having fun at another's expense. Why is it that people can complain about afk penalties "bcuz of teh dps goonz" but they are immune from criticism concerning why they are queuing for advanced content- when they themselves proudly proclaim there is nothing advanced about them?
I still, for the life of me, can't fathom potentially ruining someone elses experience by doing content above my level on a whim, ON PURPOSE, unless I was knowingly leeching off others, or trolling. When Borg Elites are released, then you can complain about the dirty elite DPSers, because I guarantee you they won't be in advanced anymore. Then I guarantee the cries of "its too hard" will be heard again, because no one is coming into failPUGs anymore carrying everyone.
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything. But those who are playing advanced, shouldn't be able to vaporise everything with great ease just because a skill revamp made them twice as powerful when they were already powerful enough before said revamp.
Of course we're all happy when we can play the missions we like, but I do hope that we also all realise that there has to be some sort of challenge - and that it's kind of ridiculous that everyone and their mother so to speak can complete what is supposed to be content for the above average player in only a fraction of the time a mission was supposed to take. Right now, there's nothing 'advanced' anymore about advanced missions and I'm still assuming that this is the result of unintended buffs, resulting from the revamp.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
I actually have to chime in and agree now. I'm an engineer, a pretty good one, my average dps before revamp was like 55 to 60k, without even changing all that much in my skills, my avg dps now is easily 75 to 80k.
But the real problem i see now, is almost every advanced que i do the last few days, just doing pugs too, has a 125 to 150k dps Tac in it, that vaporizes everything in seconds, and this game getting really freakin boring really fast.
I only play PUGS and every now and then I parse
Yes, there are still people who are not performing well. But let's not talk exceptions here, you'll always find an exceptional case somewhere. I was making a general statement, based on the average PUG I've encountered in the past week, since the skill revamp.
Yup I've seen those. In - rough estimate - 20-25% of the ISA PUGs I've been in since last Tuesday, there was at least one player doing over 90k. One mission even had two of these players.
Saw 3 people easily doing 150k, or more, in a Korfez Elite today too, also a pug, which is supposed to be elite. I'm not bashing them, i applaud them for creating amazing builds and knowing how to use them, but i barely got off a shot before everything was dead. I just not seeing a lot of point to even playing lately, when most of the time i barely get to do anything. I'm not just doing the queues to get rewards, I do also do them because they're fun, but just watching as a few players vaporize everything in seconds, is not fun at all.
I'm actually thrilled that the skill revamp made alot of average player alot better, but it made the top ones insanely better, and the gap between what a Tac can do and an already very high dps engineer like me WAY wider.
I'm not calling you out, nor am I saying you're anti-DPS. Nothing was directed at you.
This isn't an issue of elitism. This is an ability issue. Advance and elite queues were designed to be hard/challenging, and to encourage players to spend in order to get better equipment. But as I said, the bigger issue with PuGs is a lack of knowledge on how to run them properly. I myself went into an ISA and had no idea of what I was doing. Caught some serious flak from some a**hole who decided it was better to belittle me rather than explain what I had done wrong. So i went an looked it up. Walhthrough guides are a staple of gaming, and it wasn't hard to find.
Its an MMO. There are going to people like that regardless, and such people are not exclusive to the DPS crowd.
Again, no one is denying anyone anything. And don't assume that DPSers are the only ones who can be jerks. I tried to explain to someone what they had done wrong, and for my trouble, I got a nasty response and ignored. As for me, I chase DPS because I enjoy it, not to feel special. It's a game, and even if i were somehow able to climb to the top of the DPS mountain, it would mean squat outside of this game.
No apologies necessary. You are entitled to your opinion.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
On the tanking side, I have started noticing it seems inconsistant.
Take Crystaline Advance, for example:
Running my Tac in his T5U Patrol Escort yesterday and face tanking the antiproton wave at 4km without a sctratch, while vaporized at 8km when the second wave came.
I have noticed similar things in the new RA, where I can have a vessel take multiple hits from the Na'Kuhl doom cones of destruction without issue, but in a few minutes time, a single hit pops me.
Has anyone else noticed anything like this?
As for the Na'kuhl: well, they're not long enough in the game yet to make a comparison so can't really decide on that. It may have been an unlucky crit. Unlucky for you of course, I'm sure they considered it to be their lucky day
I call it the Sniper Bug lol
You see this is one of the reason why it irks me when people who would like to do DPS or etch gets on a PUG and complains a lot still knowing it's a PUG.
1. How can you or anyone else be sure that those people do even know each other?
2. How can you or anyone else know that they are not new into this kind of play? The advance or Elite or even the game?
3. Do everyone on that PUG goes to the forum? Even knows the forum? or Read any guide related to the game?
4. How can any of us know that they are just there to "Have Fun" and not learn?
See can go on and on on the things that so wrong with every assumption any old or veteran players and those who pride themselves to research the game or any other games but in the end it boils down to two things:
1. We are not always certain of what we think about others as much as they are not certain on what they think about us.
2. Not everyone has the same privilege of time or situation going on their lives so it means what you invest on something no matter what form it is in this game would also be the same to others and vise versa.
1st one is really simple. Unless we actually ask them we won't know if they are even grouped in a PUG or not. So if they fail we cannot all blame them. It's not that everyone of them tried to be bad at it it just turns out like that. I remembered an entire week of getting a bad PUG but never really got angry at all. Seriously. And I was on a sched of grinding Mats for the up grade weekend and I wanted to craft some ground and space equipment to upgrade. I didn't gathered enough materials for that weekend and I have to stop playing after the event since my work leave is only for about a week and 3 days. My planned got ruined but I know when doing PUG's sometimes things like this happened. It's just the way it is.
I could have easily made a premade group but sometimes premade groups are more taxing most specially if the ones you have to chose from are elitist who only wants to pick queue they want. In the end I joined the PUG knowing that I do not know how will it turn out but it's fine whatever the result since I know what am I getting at and do not expect anything at all and just pray for a good roll on my PUG team. And I do know from experience that there are others like me who just laughed it out even if the team fails because we know it's a PUG and no sense trying talk bad about the random team. Instead I sometimes talk to them in a way that they will not be intimidated to let them know where it went wrong and to point them to things that they might have known. Because that to me is a way of real player should do who not only cares for the game but for the growth of the community.
But don't get me wrong here though. I'm not a very patient man myself but due to the fact that I always remember the facts that I was once like them and have received the bitter end of elitist that I do not do the same as those moronic people did or say to me and lastly because I know that in the end we are still separated in a virtual space and that is one reason I should not judge another so easily. Who knows what reason they have.
The 2nd is all about life's little privileges and situation. Do they have a fast internet? If it's not then maybe that's the reason why they don't seem to move at all. Or maybe they got lagged or something. This appended to me 3 times before and my net is actually decent. I got a penalty for being "AFKed" when I'm not even moving on my screen even if I had my ship at full impulse already.
Maybe some just got from work and just want to play without having to read on theories etch and want's to just blast things to forget the stress of work or maybe school. Heck if even in a simple giveaway that cryptic does most people who come here on the forums complain about missing it because they didn't read the notice or it was even updated or there was no contact given them about the event ten I can assure you most of the people don't even really bother to read guides nor search for them. Is this bad? Yes it is but we can't compare our situation with them. They have their own life. We can only read on what they say and try to reason with them and if that doesn't work then oh well. Life goes on.
So you see I don't agree on the reason that you gave. There are too much factors for one to lump everyone on the PUG as the "4 others who just wants to have fun" and "That One Expense". Certainly there are those who might fit your description as it is true that there are Jerk DPSer's out there but in both situation not everyone is like that on both sides of the fence.
I have read your comment but I would just address a few of it. Deny it or not, in reality we tend to sometimes act too passionately about what we think should people do that we most often look like Elitist. I know from first hand experience. when I was new to the game I played rarely and had at times fallen to people with "Elitism". Some of them I know they didn't mean it yet some are just plain jerks. When I've learned the ropes so to speak, I tried passing my knowledge to others but for some reason I seem to put-off people. Wanting to know what the problem is I invited a friend of mine to the game and had him observe how I "Talk" to others. Since he knew me personally, his comment to me when I asked how it looked shocked me. She told me that I'm showing signs of Elitism that makes those who I'm talking to seem be little or gave them an overload of information. She does know me a lot and knows
that I wasn't aiming to be like that, which I hate but the way I acted so passionately over it made me loose sight of what's important: Connecting to people. Hence I changed my approach.
This is an MMO. Aside from the fact that we really don't know who is it we are talking to on the other sides of our screens, we do not know how much they would respond to us. Granted we can't please everyone but it doesn't mean we can't try connecting with them. It's the sense of Knowledge Overload and Talking too much of what we think without connecting first to others that really separates the people of this game. If we don't try our best to connect with people then no matter how much good intent we have for others would only make us look the Bad guys.
I'm a Guilty person in terms that I also love doing high DPS and love PvP as well. But not to a point of obsession. Heck my version of doing high DPS is even far more bizarre because I tend to push what damage low tier stuff can do or those things people think off as useless to begin with. That's where I get mu kicks and doing it on PUGs no less. I know suicidal. But just on a good note here I do not do those kinds of things on PUG's that I know people are serious to finish. But when I do I usually have someone who I know can carry the team just in case I failed miserably on what I'm trying to do.
I'm not saying people should do it my way in order to make other people who dislike the DPSer's or the PvPer's like them. We all have our ways of communicating and expressing ourselves. What am I saying is I think we could do better if we think 1st if what we're about to say to others so that we may not be misinterpreted as Snobs or Elitist. Only when we all recognize this then perhaps... Yes Perhaps we might actually have a better game community. Because in a MMO it's how we could connect to others that may prove to be the best experience we could have in a the game.
Anyway again apologies for any harsh words I might have said to the people I quoted here. Believe me I'm not thinking of anything bad or harshness as I was typing this but since we are not talking to each other directly and I do know words written can be misinterpreted as easily as talking directly I apologize for any misinterpretation this post may seem.
Because the 'waves' charge up from what players are throwing at it while the crystal is in the charge up phase, the second wave is typically harder because everyone has buffed up to the max by the time it starts charging and everyone is a few km from it with all their pets out and gizmos active.
If everyone hit F1 and stopped firing at it, it'd do next to no damage.
With everyone doing more damage now, I'd imagine it hits back harder now too because no one stops firing.
I can't speak for PvP as I don't really engage in that sort of playstyle outside my fleet. But as for the DPS crowd, or rather community, it's not the exclusive few people assume it is. Go to the STOBuilds subrddit and look at the hundreds or even thousands of posts where new and veteran players alike ask for the same advice, on the same ships, week after week. As long as the one who is asking puts some effort into their post, they will get the help they are looking for. Hell, even if they don't put much thought or effort into it, someone is bound to offer some suggestions. We like having new people join the "game" because that means we have more people to run with, and they can add new perspectives, and ask questions that haven't been asked before or since a significant change was made to the game. The "dirty DPSers" that most people complain about are the trolls who hang out in Zone chat spouting off bad or out-dated information and swear that it's gospel.
You have to stop looking at the game and comparing numbers on the high end. The people who do over 50k DPS may be more than before, but they are still a very small number in the player base. Whenever I run an ISA, it is still not uncommon to have 3 or even 4 people running less than 7kDPS. Some even do 2k or less. In CCA it's even worse. I've clocked people doing less than 300DPS. I even clocked someone doing less than 1 DPS.
What power creep has done so far is make PUGs a little less risky. While very low DPS players still exist, there are more of them that do 10-15k. That's a good thing IMO since it allows these players to competent enough to join other more difficult queues without dragging a team down. In this case, the power creep has been good.
For those running into multiple 6-digit DPS players in ISA, the only reason those guys are PUGging is that the new patch introduced a ton of lag into the game making "channel" runs pretty much unplayable. If you think lag in PUGs are bad, you have to see how it is inside a DPS channel run. Fix the lag, and these players will go back into their own little DPS channels.
What the top 1% need are more elite queues. We've been asking for that for months. I really hope that Cryptic introduces more content that is in-line with the current top end.
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Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
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Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
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I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Yeah I'm a bit disappointed with this change too. I really preferred it when you needed to have a good balanced team to do it instead of just powering through it.
I still remember the 1st time I ran it was with the Aggronauts and our balanced team (while not the highest in ISA DPS) went through it smoothly. My 2nd time was with a team of very high DPS-75000 players (a few from the top-10 DPS at the time) and everyone got wiped the moment they hit FAW.
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Then do it with a 10k team or pug it if laughing hurts too much. My friends and I took two pugs yesterday and had quite a good and challenging match.
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If only everyone saw their DPS doubled: I'd be in 100k right now! But, of course, only a very few people, like you, report such outlandish claims.
I'm all for nerfing you, btw. But if you nerf everyone, then the vast majority will simply do half the DPS they did before.
When do you fire your torpedoes in ISA? At what range from your targets? How fast do you fly? How many points in Impulse expertise do you have?
I’m not an expert in torpedoes but know my way with cannons. They require a bit more than just firing them to be effective too.
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Sometimes I warp into a Borg red allert just to help with the final blow for the Unimatrix. Those scenarios take only a couple of seconds. Is there anybody that likes this kind of gameplay? BTW, I think I can solo these Borg allerts. I am talking about builds in my case with mk XII gear. I won't do it in two or three minutes, but 10 minutes for the Unimatrix should be enough.
Anyway, right now the game goes faster than sex
I understand, my trouble is often that I dont know in ISA pugs how good my team is compared to me so in short how aggressively I should or can play. That’s why I always pay close attention how a team deals with the start critters.
You are a sci and love grav wells. I use them a lot for my cannons as I need them to get critters in my arc of firing. If you have 2 points in control expertise and engage the romulan tier 5 reput power this should be enough to swallow the entire opening critters of isa. My first suggestion would be to do just that.
-> head in full impulse fast
-> hit romulan tier 5 rep power
-> launch garv well at cube
-> hold at close proximity in front of cube (lets say 5km) for the spheres to be sucked
-> launch torpedos when spheres are in.
It takes only a few seconds at best for the spheres to be attracted to the well. Basically the same time the faw scimis need to do their cloak/de-cloak thingy for their damage buff. Even if they manage a few shots first (what should be good to remove the critter's shields for your torpedos) I really cannot imagine that your torpedo spread 3 does not find any left over targets then.
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First of all, this isn't just about me. Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything. Sure, in the short term you'll have fun with this new situation, but ultimately it's bad for the game as it will only drive new players away when they see that most of the content in the game is practically a joke.
Do you really think it was ever intended to be this easy? To complete advanced content, earn resources at the laughable rates and times we have come to? You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective. This alone proves that ridiculous instances such as 1-minute ISA's were never supposed to happen.
To answer your question: I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play. Advanced should pose some sort of challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be the case that you, I or anyone else are shooting through enemies before you even realised they were there. I also enjoy ISA PUGs every now and then. If there are no 90k DPS monsters flying around in it, that is. I can't imagine I'm the only one experiencing this problem.
Like I said, this is about game balance. This isn't about one specific queue or me having to find new challenges, it's about a serious game-wide issue. And issues don't get solved just by looking for ways to get around them.
Which just translates to "I did 40k before the skill revamp, now I do 60k, so everyone needs to be nerfed."
Like I said, my DPS only went up marginally, consistent with the more offensive choices I made, affored by the new revamp, nothing more. My DPS didn't magically double, or I'd be one 'of those 100k DPS monsters flying around' as well.
Rather than the immediate cry for blanket nerfs, if, and only IF, some people suddenly had their DPS doubled, the Devs should look into the specific causes of their specific builds, and not just nerf everyone.
Even if my small DPS-increase were reduced to what I had before, all your proposal would accomplish is having given me the same DPS I had prior to the revamp, but with a significantly weaker ship as the result of choices I made to get to a somewhat higher DPS. And I didn't sign up for a 'bait & switch' like that.
I’m afraid you are fighting a lost cause then. You can’t stop the drive of mmopg players to get better or to play to win. You can’t also stop cryptic’s strategy to generate income out of this drive.
If you like this game and want to play it, all you can do is adapt or move away. But quite frankly if a difficulty setting has become too easy for a player picking the next one would be nothing but natural.
Considering how few players tend to space elites I think the wide mass in this game is far away from reaching this point so I bet we look at yet more power creep in the future. The alternative would be another Delta Rising which led to the exodus out of the queues. And not because they became too easy but rather the opposite.
Considering we have enough players around that have trouble doing the latest FE or the new red alert I think encountering a 90Ker on a map one difficulty setting below the stuff you or he could run feels like a luxury problem.
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