I don't think I ever said that everyone should be nerfed. In fact, I didn't even start using the word nerf, it was you who claimed that we're 'crying for nerfs'.
I'm merely asking for a correction to the Buffs that were a result of the revamp itself, not of any differences in builds.
I already replied to that part of your post, earlier. Getting more DPS by sacrificing some defensive abilities and choosing more offensive skills is one thing, and no one wants to nerf that. I'm talking about the increases in DPS that were not a result of such choices.
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
First of all, this isn't just about me. Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything. Sure, in the short term you'll have fun with this new situation, but ultimately it's bad for the game as it will only drive new players away when they see that most of the content in the game is practically a joke.
Do you really think it was ever intended to be this easy? To complete advanced content, earn resources at the laughable rates and times we have come to? You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective. This alone proves that ridiculous instances such as 1-minute ISA's were never supposed to happen.
To answer your question: I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play. Advanced should pose some sort of challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be the case that you, I or anyone else are shooting through enemies before you even realised they were there. I also enjoy ISA PUGs every now and then. If there are no 90k DPS monsters flying around in it, that is. I can't imagine I'm the only one experiencing this problem.
Like I said, this is about game balance. This isn't about one specific queue or me having to find new challenges, it's about a serious game-wide issue. And issues don't get solved just by looking for ways to get around them.
I’m afraid you are fighting a lost cause then. You can’t stop the drive of mmopg players to get better or to play to win. You can’t also stop cryptic’s strategy to generate income out of this drive.
If you like this game and want to play it, all you can do is adapt or move away. But quite frankly if a difficulty setting has become too easy for a player picking the next one would be nothing but natural.
Considering how few players tend to space elites I think the wide mass in this game is far away from reaching this point so I bet we look at yet more power creep in the future. The alternative would be another Delta Rising which led to the exodus out of the queues. And not because they became too easy but rather the opposite.
Considering we have enough players around that have trouble doing the latest FE or the new red alert I think encountering a 90Ker on a map one difficulty setting below the stuff you or he could run feels like a luxury problem.
There is an important difference here though. Power creep is usually sold. This time it wasn't sold, it was added, I'm still assuming unintentionally, to people who didn't really do much to get that extra DPS.
Which is why I assume that they'll fix it, cause it hasn't earned them anything this time. Of course they'll continue selling more powerful and OP stuff in the future, but we'll deal with that by the time we get there
@risian4 you are right, the added DPS wasn't intentional. In fact, @borticuscryptic said that there shouldn't be massive gains or losses from individual skills. I think they've achieved that.
The DPS increase you are seeing doesn't come from buffed skills, but rather from the additional skills players can now invest in. Stuff like armor pen and shield weakening didn't exist before. There's less range drop off through long range targeting sensors. There are also new sources of CD reduction. And for those brave enough to move out of the old skill meta, there are the Ultimates.
We also have a very powerful new secondary specialization tree. That tree opened up new build possibilities and game strategy.
So no, there was no intentional buff. The old skills are the same. We just got more toys to add to them, and that's where all these DPS increases are coming from.
Worth noting, on my builds, my FAW boats got the biggest gains (likely from Strategist, Long Range Targeting, Armor Pen and Attack Patterns). My Sci torp ships had slight gains (mostly from control amplification, drain infection and offensive protocols) while my pure kinetic ships are roughly the same (maybe slight gains from Strategist and Armor Pen). Based on my experience testing in Holodeck pre-patch, Tribble prior to launch and the current situation at Holodeck, the gains are mostly from the new trees.
Since 11.5 I've found myself actually playing maps a bit and enjoying myself, instead of the usual grind across the account. I even smiled playing sto last night. This is disgusting behaviour and I apologise. Might report myself to a GM. Banning's too good for the likes of me.
Yesterday I was ina Nah'kul red allert. I was with my science captain in a Scryer and there were a couple of escorts, some pilot escorts, a risian escort was there too. Good builds, because I had to work really hard to get some hits in. It looks to me the whole mission took about a minute, but most likely it was about two minutes.
Sometimes I warp into a Borg red allert just to help with the final blow for the Unimatrix. Those scenarios take only a couple of seconds. Is there anybody that likes this kind of gameplay? BTW, I think I can solo these Borg allerts. I am talking about builds in my case with mk XII gear. I won't do it in two or three minutes, but 10 minutes for the Unimatrix should be enough.
Anyway, right now the game goes faster than sex
I wont call BS on you soloing a Unimatrix, but i would like to see you do this.
I have a pretty nasty rommy tac and she cant do it, i have a fed engineer who can tank everything in sight solo but she cant kill it.
I have yet to solo one of these or see anyone else do it.
But the real problem i see now, is almost every advanced que i do the last few days, just doing pugs too, has a 125 to 150k dps Tac in it, that vaporizes everything in seconds, and this game getting really freakin boring really fast.
If only everyone saw their DPS doubled: I'd be in 100k right now! But, of course, only a very few people, like you, report such outlandish claims.
I'm all for nerfing you, btw. But if you nerf everyone, then the vast majority will simply do half the DPS they did before.
I have to agree with this sentiment 50-100%?, i doubt that, people seem to be getting a little punch drunk with the gains stated.
As far as i can tell investing in tac mightily on my best tac rig she gained around 33%, and thats substantial, but 50-100%?, nah, calling for nerfs isn't a good idea.
Since 11.5 I've found myself actually playing maps a bit and enjoying myself, instead of the usual grind across the account. I even smiled playing sto last night. This is disgusting behaviour and I apologise. Might report myself to a GM. Banning's too good for the likes of me.
Indeed, you shall be forced to smile again! Feel it, the guilt, the awkwardness? That's right you toothy swine, suffer, wallow in the depths of your own enjoyment and know that you have been judged! Your fun is the only fun that's wrong, because it doesn't kill babies!
(For those that didn't see the Livestream, this joke has been made in reference to comments therein. I do not, in fact, advocate the killing on non-metaphorical sapient beings of any age, nor their offspring. Thank, you may now return to your regularly scheduled post.)
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
First of all, this isn't just about me. Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything. Sure, in the short term you'll have fun with this new situation, but ultimately it's bad for the game as it will only drive new players away when they see that most of the content in the game is practically a joke.
Do you really think it was ever intended to be this easy? To complete advanced content, earn resources at the laughable rates and times we have come to? You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective. This alone proves that ridiculous instances such as 1-minute ISA's were never supposed to happen.
To answer your question: I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play. Advanced should pose some sort of challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be the case that you, I or anyone else are shooting through enemies before you even realised they were there. I also enjoy ISA PUGs every now and then. If there are no 90k DPS monsters flying around in it, that is. I can't imagine I'm the only one experiencing this problem.
Like I said, this is about game balance. This isn't about one specific queue or me having to find new challenges, it's about a serious game-wide issue. And issues don't get solved just by looking for ways to get around them.
I’m afraid you are fighting a lost cause then. You can’t stop the drive of mmopg players to get better or to play to win. You can’t also stop cryptic’s strategy to generate income out of this drive.
If you like this game and want to play it, all you can do is adapt or move away. But quite frankly if a difficulty setting has become too easy for a player picking the next one would be nothing but natural.
Considering how few players tend to space elites I think the wide mass in this game is far away from reaching this point so I bet we look at yet more power creep in the future. The alternative would be another Delta Rising which led to the exodus out of the queues. And not because they became too easy but rather the opposite.
Considering we have enough players around that have trouble doing the latest FE or the new red alert I think encountering a 90Ker on a map one difficulty setting below the stuff you or he could run feels like a luxury problem.
There is an important difference here though. Power creep is usually sold. This time it wasn't sold, it was added, I'm still assuming unintentionally, to people who didn't really do much to get that extra DPS.
Which is why I assume that they'll fix it, cause it hasn't earned them anything this time. Of course they'll continue selling more powerful and OP stuff in the future, but we'll deal with that by the time we get there
Bet the only "fix" we see for this aforementioned power creep is more shield and hull hp, and more resists, like all these lame immune effects.
i do think top player damage needs a nerf, yep i said it, or we need harder content, and i include myself in that too, mostly because its just stupid. If even 5% of their ships can put out this kind of damage, i don't see why the Federation hasn't taken over the entire universe by now. i do think its just silly that any player for any reason can put out this kind of damage and turn advanced and even elite queues into a total joke of easyness. The game itself has clearly not kept up with the power creep, and its just silly now. Theres another thread going some people calling for Elite versions of ISA, KSA n whatever else already, and if we can't have nerfs then we DO at least need that, and maybe we do need just an Uber Elite version of em too. The situation is clearly not fine tho as it currently stands.
And i would agree that pointing out that some players are still doing 2k dps isn't really a fair argument either, because without knowing the makeup of their team, what they did, and how they tried to do it, you don't really know WHY they did 2k dps. Maybe their builds actually are pretty decent 20k builds, but because of a 150k dps on the same team that flys around like a freakin rocket the whole time, nothing remained alive long enough for them to achieve any dps on.
Since 11.5 I've found myself actually playing maps a bit and enjoying myself, instead of the usual grind across the account. I even smiled playing sto last night. This is disgusting behaviour and I apologise. Might report myself to a GM. Banning's too good for the likes of me.
*points at mmps1...*
You... over here now, and over my knee... Smiling and enjoyment are not allowed in STO.
*whack!*
Kids, these days...
*whack!*
Thinking they should be having fun...
*whack!*
Playing a video game...
*whack!*
What has this world come to?
*whack!*
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
Yes, probably me for one. Because whilst my torpedo boat is perfectly capable of dealing respectable DPS (in concert with high-powered Sci abilities) when everything is already dead before my torpedoes got anywhere close it IS going to make me look pathetic now, isn't it.
I use cannons and a torp on a sci captain in a bop, and i have 0 problems doing well over 10k, so theres that.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything.
More high end dps players are pugging now because of the insane lag that has just been introduced. If you want them out of your pug runs, ask the devs to address the lag issues, don't complain that people are speeding up your pug runs because they are just trying to find a stable game to play.
You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective.
How well are these time gated missions received? They are empty. After people finish up their reputation projects, they never touch these queues again. The devs need to just admit that their time gate experiment is a failed one and move away from this design choice. Instead there was talk about a queue rotation, to force people to play content they do not find enjoyable. This will have the same effect as time gating does, but instead of people playing different queues they will just play different games.
I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play.
There are a lot of us who would like to play elites, and we would if there were elite versions of the fun queues. We had HSE, but now even that has been nerfed to the point where it might as well be advanced. Again, if people do not want the popular advanced pug queues full of 100k+ people, pressure the devs to keep their promise of bringing the elite queues back into the game. They were suppose to be gone for a short time while they were reworked. Until this happens, private fleet only matches will probably be your best choice to slow things down. Until the lag and elite queue situation is addressed, expect fast advanced content to be the norm for the foreseeable future.
Power creep after the skill revamp is real, but it depends where you were prior to 11.5. My undergeared alts that were around 50k prior to the patch are all sitting around 100k now while my main has lost a fair bit of dps because of extreme levels of lag. My post patch PR has been me running alone in a pug. I have no doubt that if this lag was removed, you would see absolutely insane levels of facerolling going on.
I understand you guys do not like the current state of the game, just realize that many of us do not either. Work with us to help the devs understand what the playerbase actually wants instead of just blaming other groups for your problems. Remember, people have fun in their own way. Telling someone they are playing the game wrong doesn't help the situation at all.
The game itself has clearly not kept up with the power creep, and its just silly now. Theres another thread going some people calling for Elite versions of ISA, KSA n whatever else already, and if we can't have nerfs then we DO at least need that, and maybe we do need just an Uber Elite version of em too. The situation is clearly not fine tho as it currently stands.
I would love for this to happen. If it does, elite content needs to take an actual elite team where death can and probably will happen. When they introduced the requirement that you had to keep Vanderveer alive in BHE, the forums raged that it was impossibly hard when it was still crazy easy with a team that should be in elite content. Too many people feel they are entitled to be able to breeze through any and all content available.
Giving in to the people who refuse to put in the time to gather resources, learn build mechanics, and master piloting techniques will put us into the same situation we currently are except they will be complaining that elites are going too fast instead of advanced.
Sounds good. If they'd add the need for other things beside DPS, elite queues could solve a lot of the problems.
I never liked the time gating myself, but it's the only thing that's preventing all queues to turn into missions like ISA or CCA. At least in those time gated missions, you get a chance to actually play the mission instead of being forced to fight for enemies, instead of fighting the enemies.
If they could include some other objectives that require people to move away from being focussed entirely on DPS, then missions could slow down without needing to time gate them. It'd also add some new challenge. Unfortunately, such things are unlikely to be implemented.
Let's just be honest. Its an MMO, and you are never going to be able to make everyone happy. The Klingons will always feel inferior, Roms will always have the advantage, PvPers will always want something nerf'd, the DPS crowd will continue to exacerbate the power gap issue, Joe Casual will continue to queue for runs they aren't prepared for, Trolls will always grief you, and finally, Cryptic will continue to give us new toys, that in the end, won't change anything I've said. At the end of the day, all you can do is accept things for what they are, or move on.
Sure, we can nerf the game till the cows come home, but to do so to the extent that some are calling for isn't realistic. The people who put together high-end builds are willing to pay money for traits and such because they offer significant bonuses to existing performance. No one is going to spend 900 Lobi on a ship for a trait, or console, or what have you for 1% gain in DPS (well maybe a few will, but you get the point). As a business, it simply wouldn't make sense for Cryptic to do so.
Let's also look at past nerfs. Pets were a big one, and some people lost their sh*t over KLW. Now people want Inspirational Leader nerfed, which for those who ground out, or spent RW money to be able to afford the 300 Million EC price tag, it would be a huge slap in the face. Then you have to consider the fact that we now have a new set of expectations. Those who regularly parse, or are in any way familiar with what their ships are capable of, expect, or should expect some level of "normalization." But when Joe Casual logs in and realizes that they aren't doing quite what they were the night before, people are going to get upset. Basically, I'm saying be careful what you wish for.
Sounds good. If they'd add the need for other things beside DPS, elite queues could solve a lot of the problems.
I never liked the time gating myself, but it's the only thing that's preventing all queues to turn into missions like ISA or CCA. At least in those time gated missions, you get a chance to actually play the mission instead of being forced to fight for enemies, instead of fighting the enemies.
If they could include some other objectives that require people to move away from being focussed entirely on DPS, then missions could slow down without needing to time gate them. It'd also add some new challenge. Unfortunately, such things are unlikely to be implemented.
They could easily do that with some of the unpopular queues right now. GGA/GGE, get X number of ships to the planet. CPA/CPE pretend to be a taxi X number of times. ATNE, when the technician is done with his work allow us to move on. Let us help him do his work so we can speed things up. Mirror invasion, close all of the rifts. Something objective based that takes as long as it needs to, not some arbitrary time limit.
Every new queue that has a timer that says you must wait X minutes to continue on will be dead on arrival.
There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
Then do it with a 10k team or pug it if laughing hurts too much. My friends and I took two pugs yesterday and had quite a good and challenging match.
I understand what you are trying to say - adapt and make it harder on yourself to feel like the game is a challenge (some say I already do). I get it. The point is that this entire game is an artificial construct, and that the content and difficulty should match the power available to players. That can be created. The question is, why hasn't it? The other question is, why was the difficulty of an Elite queue reduced?
People who are just here 'to have fun' most likely don't care that much about advanced anyway. They would most likely stick to normal missions, where they can fly their favorite ship without needing to worry about DPS, objectives or anything.
Clearly, you have never looked at a parse from a PUG. It's very, very rare that there isn't at least 1 person who is either clueless, leeching, or trolling. There are STILL people doing under 2k dps in ISA. It's even worse in KSA.
Yes, probably me for one. Because whilst my torpedo boat is perfectly capable of dealing respectable DPS (in concert with high-powered Sci abilities) when everything is already dead before my torpedoes got anywhere close it IS going to make me look pathetic now, isn't it.
I feel your pain. I have to fly even more aggressively now because of outdated mechanics + bugs w/ torps to just get 50K when there are 2+ FaW users hitting above 100K+. Part of it is me being out of practice, but this is ridiculous powercreep for the available content.
I think the main factor has been science debuffs applying to anyone that hits the target. Things like control amplification (resist debuff) and sensor analysis etc. should have been made to only debuff for the person who applied it. I wouldn't agree with removing these skill effects or lowering them as science capts need them. However several of these skills should only apply to self as this one of the reasons why everyone is getting buffed damage.
Yeah - and I repeat, whilst I don't have numbers, I generally do respectable damage. But my point was that in this scenario it wouldn't matter if my torpedo boat was capable of 170k DPS because guess what happens if the target of those torpedoes was BFAW-vaped before they got into range......
From one torp boat captain to another...
I agree it is more difficult to hit targets due to projectile travel speeds but if you build your ship right and fly aggressively enough, it isn't impossible to keep up with a 100k+ FAW boat.
For me it's not been power creep, more like a power avalanche, pretty much across the board. Queues, battlezones, solo content, space, ground... it really doesn't matter. I even find the Advanced skill setting slightly easier than Normal used to be.
The question is, why hasn't it? The other question is, why was the difficulty of an Elite queue reduced?
Well I can only guess because nobody knows for sure right?
My guess is that cryptic looks at the empty queue list and tries to balance the contend against the average STO team. Now with a span of up to 257K DPS by single players this is not easy so I conclude that they tend to look at the majority of players in this game and not minorities.
I’m subscribed to all major DPS channels up to Diamond (& 75k) and as someone who has a habit of just teaming up with friends and queue up for pugs I monitor the queues closely. It’s my estimation that full teams of 75k players make up 1% of all the teams that form in STO at most. Of course cryptic does not cater to them, they don’t even cater to the 1% of the players plagued by the same old bugs for years either. I believe it to be as simple as that.
Now I know that my solution is not for every 75k+ DPSer out there, and yea as somebody who has 7 out of 9 toons above 75K I also feel the urge for more engaging battles. Nevertheless in the end we can all set the difficulty straight ourselves by selecting the group we play with. Now that’s a concept every fresh born DPSer is made familiar with the moment he joins 10k, something he is basically required to do; Set the difficulty proper for himself and others by selecting from the same DPS channel on his quest to move upwards. I relay think if the contend got too easy for the best of us doing the same, just this time the other way around, might be not a bad solution at all. Considering what kind of players I encountered in pugs the past week (lol) it’s not as if many harcore DPSer don’t already do just that. Sure one can blame it on the lag, but one can also blame it on missing targets to shoot at.
I have a few friends in game which are equally good as I am, some are even a lot better. I’m also a fleet leader caring about new players or all the casuals I got in my fleets (the majority of peeps I know). One of those casuals we took to HSE yesterday. Think he managed his first 10k parse ever (and that in HSE) while on most ISA he was always reduced to a role as spectator. Well it worked again! The good ones in team got their thrill, the rookie got a chance to participate and learn what is possible and I got the happy STO experience I wanted.
I think that's why HSE was simplyfied, to give 10% of the teams out there a chance and not just 1%. At times where I sincerely question that enough players for this 1% of teams are even always around in game (or willing to run that map) at any given time I’m also not really opposed to the change.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Yesterday I was ina Nah'kul red allert. I was with my science captain in a Scryer and there were a couple of escorts, some pilot escorts, a risian escort was there too. Good builds, because I had to work really hard to get some hits in. It looks to me the whole mission took about a minute, but most likely it was about two minutes.
Sometimes I warp into a Borg red allert just to help with the final blow for the Unimatrix. Those scenarios take only a couple of seconds. Is there anybody that likes this kind of gameplay? BTW, I think I can solo these Borg allerts. I am talking about builds in my case with mk XII gear. I won't do it in two or three minutes, but 10 minutes for the Unimatrix should be enough.
Anyway, right now the game goes faster than sex
I wont call BS on you soloing a Unimatrix, but i would like to see you do this.
I have a pretty nasty rommy tac and she cant do it, i have a fed engineer who can tank everything in sight solo but she cant kill it.
I have yet to solo one of these or see anyone else do it.
Well, I never soloed it, but one time I was just with one other player and we could finnish the mission easely.
Let's do some math. The Unimatrix ship has 1,125,000 hitpoints. Let's say the generators heal it op twice. We have to eat through 3 x 1,125,000 = 3,375,000 hitpoints. Let's say your DPS is 15,000, which is in the DPS league a low number. With this DPS it will take you 3,375,000/15,000 = 225 seconds to destroy the Unimatrix. That is less than 4 minutes
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
Oh I’m very well aware what ISA is about. I know why I like it, why I have fun in it. DEEEPZ! One hundred thirty two thousand Deeepz with cannons to be more precise. Wheeeeee!
LOL, that map never was STO’S “hard” stage or even supposed to be. Not now, and not 4 years ago when I started to play this game.
My question to you was aimed at the fact why *you* bother with ISA at all and point power creep issues at it? Yes, it is an advanced map and everybody knows that.
I mean I perfectly understand the DPSer who likes to improve his build and damage output and is dependent on ISA reference parses. I also understand the terribad who can’t do anything but queue up for ISA and hope for an easy sneak through. But I don’t quite understand your power creep issues there. You had 40k before the skill revamp, now you have 60k in isa? GZ! That’s brings you just over the threshold where you have enough of a build to tend to engaging matches like the ones I pointed out to you. You won’t have to be carried but won’t be able to carry others either. Power creep just gifted you some nice challenges there.
Now instead of embracing the options you stick to ISA concerned about it to be too easy as a result of power creep?
Why? Same counts for @ryan01, lol why? We have enough engaging battles in STO and when it comes to mixed and especially average teams (as in pugs or playing with friends and fleets) the skill revamp really opened more good fights than it closed. Space elite maps were for 1% of the player base at most before the skill revamp and now it’s for more like 5%.
That change is good if you think one light year past ISA and you are part of those 5%!
First of all, this isn't just about me. Some people are able to look beyond their own needs and realise that game balance is something that is important, regardless of what it means to 1 specific non-average player like you or I. That's what I meant with 'look beyond the bow of your own starship'.
There are people, not just me, but also others who may enjoy missions like ISA, KASA, CCA etc. but who are unable to play it because there's even more of those 100k DPS monsters flying around now and PUGging missions where they vaporise everything. Sure, in the short term you'll have fun with this new situation, but ultimately it's bad for the game as it will only drive new players away when they see that most of the content in the game is practically a joke.
Do you really think it was ever intended to be this easy? To complete advanced content, earn resources at the laughable rates and times we have come to? You know perfectly well that an advanced mission is not supposed to be completable in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Hence why most of the newer missions are time gated. Which in itself is not something I like, but it's an understandable decision from the Devs' perspective. This alone proves that ridiculous instances such as 1-minute ISA's were never supposed to happen.
To answer your question: I don't want to play Elite's just because all other content is laughable easy and power creep all over the place. That should never be a reason to look for other missions to play, as it would bascially mean I have to accept this weird post-revamp situation and just move away from the queues I like to play. Advanced should pose some sort of challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be the case that you, I or anyone else are shooting through enemies before you even realised they were there. I also enjoy ISA PUGs every now and then. If there are no 90k DPS monsters flying around in it, that is. I can't imagine I'm the only one experiencing this problem.
Like I said, this is about game balance. This isn't about one specific queue or me having to find new challenges, it's about a serious game-wide issue. And issues don't get solved just by looking for ways to get around them.
I’m afraid you are fighting a lost cause then. You can’t stop the drive of mmopg players to get better or to play to win. You can’t also stop cryptic’s strategy to generate income out of this drive.
If you like this game and want to play it, all you can do is adapt or move away. But quite frankly if a difficulty setting has become too easy for a player picking the next one would be nothing but natural.
Considering how few players tend to space elites I think the wide mass in this game is far away from reaching this point so I bet we look at yet more power creep in the future. The alternative would be another Delta Rising which led to the exodus out of the queues. And not because they became too easy but rather the opposite.
Considering we have enough players around that have trouble doing the latest FE or the new red alert I think encountering a 90Ker on a map one difficulty setting below the stuff you or he could run feels like a luxury problem.
There is an important difference here though. Power creep is usually sold. This time it wasn't sold, it was added, I'm still assuming unintentionally, to people who didn't really do much to get that extra DPS.
Which is why I assume that they'll fix it, cause it hasn't earned them anything this time. Of course they'll continue selling more powerful and OP stuff in the future, but we'll deal with that by the time we get there
Well the situation is a bit tricky at moment because we got a new specialization, new traits and captain abilities on top of the new skill tree. I really have a hard time telling what precisely relates to my performance increases or if it is all of it but just a bit.
From my understanding of the term “power creep” I also have a bit of an issue with the skill tree. I mean it is the basic skill tree everybody has filled the moment he reaches level 50, so is it even power creep? Selling and marketing plays into it. Otherwise we would not have reskill tokens on sale atm.
As far as the topic of trade-offs are concerned they are most definitely around so I don’t really see any need to fix the new tree at the moment. I have skilled my nine toons all bit differently and my 130k DPS ISA Escort does not end up to be my first choice for an HSE run. I use a more balanced toon there with less DPS but with much more durability thanks to the skill tree options.
If they would want to stop players from rofelstomping ISA over “fixes that may be in order” they would be much better off looking at a handful of highly useful items and traits that have been around much longer than the new tree. They contribute much more to the mystical OP player in ISA dishing out 100k without taking a scratch than the skill revamp ever could.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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As additional thought, I managed some good numbers as in 90k ISA DPS again out of a sci toon of mine. Fun part for me is that he is not even the space sci I care a lot about so I thought going full sci in tree (with really poor tac investments) would be a fun thing to do for a change. Well turned out to be fun and efficient because before 11.5 the max DPS I ever got out of him was some 55kish DPS.
I suspect the DPS increase we witness here really originates more from the new strategist spec and/or team benefits gained by others using frenzy e.g. rather than the available skill tree choices. Sure you can squeeze a bit more DPS out of it when going full tac but you seem not left far behind when you chose not to.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Comments
I'm merely asking for a correction to the Buffs that were a result of the revamp itself, not of any differences in builds.
I already replied to that part of your post, earlier. Getting more DPS by sacrificing some defensive abilities and choosing more offensive skills is one thing, and no one wants to nerf that. I'm talking about the increases in DPS that were not a result of such choices.
Edit: that's for @meimeitoo btw
There is an important difference here though. Power creep is usually sold. This time it wasn't sold, it was added, I'm still assuming unintentionally, to people who didn't really do much to get that extra DPS.
Which is why I assume that they'll fix it, cause it hasn't earned them anything this time. Of course they'll continue selling more powerful and OP stuff in the future, but we'll deal with that by the time we get there
The DPS increase you are seeing doesn't come from buffed skills, but rather from the additional skills players can now invest in. Stuff like armor pen and shield weakening didn't exist before. There's less range drop off through long range targeting sensors. There are also new sources of CD reduction. And for those brave enough to move out of the old skill meta, there are the Ultimates.
We also have a very powerful new secondary specialization tree. That tree opened up new build possibilities and game strategy.
So no, there was no intentional buff. The old skills are the same. We just got more toys to add to them, and that's where all these DPS increases are coming from.
Worth noting, on my builds, my FAW boats got the biggest gains (likely from Strategist, Long Range Targeting, Armor Pen and Attack Patterns). My Sci torp ships had slight gains (mostly from control amplification, drain infection and offensive protocols) while my pure kinetic ships are roughly the same (maybe slight gains from Strategist and Armor Pen). Based on my experience testing in Holodeck pre-patch, Tribble prior to launch and the current situation at Holodeck, the gains are mostly from the new trees.
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I have a pretty nasty rommy tac and she cant do it, i have a fed engineer who can tank everything in sight solo but she cant kill it.
I have yet to solo one of these or see anyone else do it.
I have to agree with this sentiment 50-100%?, i doubt that, people seem to be getting a little punch drunk with the gains stated.
As far as i can tell investing in tac mightily on my best tac rig she gained around 33%, and thats substantial, but 50-100%?, nah, calling for nerfs isn't a good idea.
Indeed, you shall be forced to smile again! Feel it, the guilt, the awkwardness? That's right you toothy swine, suffer, wallow in the depths of your own enjoyment and know that you have been judged! Your fun is the only fun that's wrong, because it doesn't kill babies!
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Bet the only "fix" we see for this aforementioned power creep is more shield and hull hp, and more resists, like all these lame immune effects.
The immune stuff is just an eye roll.
And i would agree that pointing out that some players are still doing 2k dps isn't really a fair argument either, because without knowing the makeup of their team, what they did, and how they tried to do it, you don't really know WHY they did 2k dps. Maybe their builds actually are pretty decent 20k builds, but because of a 150k dps on the same team that flys around like a freakin rocket the whole time, nothing remained alive long enough for them to achieve any dps on.
Exactly.... if only 5% can do this kind of the DPS, the other 95% shouldn't have to be nerfed because of it.
You... over here now, and over my knee... Smiling and enjoyment are not allowed in STO.
*whack!*
Kids, these days...
*whack!*
Thinking they should be having fun...
*whack!*
Playing a video game...
*whack!*
What has this world come to?
*whack!*
I use cannons and a torp on a sci captain in a bop, and i have 0 problems doing well over 10k, so theres that.
More high end dps players are pugging now because of the insane lag that has just been introduced. If you want them out of your pug runs, ask the devs to address the lag issues, don't complain that people are speeding up your pug runs because they are just trying to find a stable game to play.
How well are these time gated missions received? They are empty. After people finish up their reputation projects, they never touch these queues again. The devs need to just admit that their time gate experiment is a failed one and move away from this design choice. Instead there was talk about a queue rotation, to force people to play content they do not find enjoyable. This will have the same effect as time gating does, but instead of people playing different queues they will just play different games.
There are a lot of us who would like to play elites, and we would if there were elite versions of the fun queues. We had HSE, but now even that has been nerfed to the point where it might as well be advanced. Again, if people do not want the popular advanced pug queues full of 100k+ people, pressure the devs to keep their promise of bringing the elite queues back into the game. They were suppose to be gone for a short time while they were reworked. Until this happens, private fleet only matches will probably be your best choice to slow things down. Until the lag and elite queue situation is addressed, expect fast advanced content to be the norm for the foreseeable future.
Power creep after the skill revamp is real, but it depends where you were prior to 11.5. My undergeared alts that were around 50k prior to the patch are all sitting around 100k now while my main has lost a fair bit of dps because of extreme levels of lag. My post patch PR has been me running alone in a pug. I have no doubt that if this lag was removed, you would see absolutely insane levels of facerolling going on.
I understand you guys do not like the current state of the game, just realize that many of us do not either. Work with us to help the devs understand what the playerbase actually wants instead of just blaming other groups for your problems. Remember, people have fun in their own way. Telling someone they are playing the game wrong doesn't help the situation at all.
I would love for this to happen. If it does, elite content needs to take an actual elite team where death can and probably will happen. When they introduced the requirement that you had to keep Vanderveer alive in BHE, the forums raged that it was impossibly hard when it was still crazy easy with a team that should be in elite content. Too many people feel they are entitled to be able to breeze through any and all content available.
Giving in to the people who refuse to put in the time to gather resources, learn build mechanics, and master piloting techniques will put us into the same situation we currently are except they will be complaining that elites are going too fast instead of advanced.
I never liked the time gating myself, but it's the only thing that's preventing all queues to turn into missions like ISA or CCA. At least in those time gated missions, you get a chance to actually play the mission instead of being forced to fight for enemies, instead of fighting the enemies.
If they could include some other objectives that require people to move away from being focussed entirely on DPS, then missions could slow down without needing to time gate them. It'd also add some new challenge. Unfortunately, such things are unlikely to be implemented.
Sure, we can nerf the game till the cows come home, but to do so to the extent that some are calling for isn't realistic. The people who put together high-end builds are willing to pay money for traits and such because they offer significant bonuses to existing performance. No one is going to spend 900 Lobi on a ship for a trait, or console, or what have you for 1% gain in DPS (well maybe a few will, but you get the point). As a business, it simply wouldn't make sense for Cryptic to do so.
Let's also look at past nerfs. Pets were a big one, and some people lost their sh*t over KLW. Now people want Inspirational Leader nerfed, which for those who ground out, or spent RW money to be able to afford the 300 Million EC price tag, it would be a huge slap in the face. Then you have to consider the fact that we now have a new set of expectations. Those who regularly parse, or are in any way familiar with what their ships are capable of, expect, or should expect some level of "normalization." But when Joe Casual logs in and realizes that they aren't doing quite what they were the night before, people are going to get upset. Basically, I'm saying be careful what you wish for.
They could easily do that with some of the unpopular queues right now. GGA/GGE, get X number of ships to the planet. CPA/CPE pretend to be a taxi X number of times. ATNE, when the technician is done with his work allow us to move on. Let us help him do his work so we can speed things up. Mirror invasion, close all of the rifts. Something objective based that takes as long as it needs to, not some arbitrary time limit.
Every new queue that has a timer that says you must wait X minutes to continue on will be dead on arrival.
Hive Space Elite was nerfed/fixed prior to 11.5 so that it was much easier to do. 11.5 made it ISA 1.5 now. It's a joke.
I understand what you are trying to say - adapt and make it harder on yourself to feel like the game is a challenge (some say I already do). I get it. The point is that this entire game is an artificial construct, and that the content and difficulty should match the power available to players. That can be created. The question is, why hasn't it? The other question is, why was the difficulty of an Elite queue reduced?
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I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I feel your pain. I have to fly even more aggressively now because of outdated mechanics + bugs w/ torps to just get 50K when there are 2+ FaW users hitting above 100K+. Part of it is me being out of practice, but this is ridiculous powercreep for the available content.
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"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
From one torp boat captain to another...
I agree it is more difficult to hit targets due to projectile travel speeds but if you build your ship right and fly aggressively enough, it isn't impossible to keep up with a 100k+ FAW boat.
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Well I can only guess because nobody knows for sure right?
My guess is that cryptic looks at the empty queue list and tries to balance the contend against the average STO team. Now with a span of up to 257K DPS by single players this is not easy so I conclude that they tend to look at the majority of players in this game and not minorities.
I’m subscribed to all major DPS channels up to Diamond (& 75k) and as someone who has a habit of just teaming up with friends and queue up for pugs I monitor the queues closely. It’s my estimation that full teams of 75k players make up 1% of all the teams that form in STO at most. Of course cryptic does not cater to them, they don’t even cater to the 1% of the players plagued by the same old bugs for years either. I believe it to be as simple as that.
Now I know that my solution is not for every 75k+ DPSer out there, and yea as somebody who has 7 out of 9 toons above 75K I also feel the urge for more engaging battles. Nevertheless in the end we can all set the difficulty straight ourselves by selecting the group we play with. Now that’s a concept every fresh born DPSer is made familiar with the moment he joins 10k, something he is basically required to do; Set the difficulty proper for himself and others by selecting from the same DPS channel on his quest to move upwards. I relay think if the contend got too easy for the best of us doing the same, just this time the other way around, might be not a bad solution at all. Considering what kind of players I encountered in pugs the past week (lol) it’s not as if many harcore DPSer don’t already do just that. Sure one can blame it on the lag, but one can also blame it on missing targets to shoot at.
I have a few friends in game which are equally good as I am, some are even a lot better. I’m also a fleet leader caring about new players or all the casuals I got in my fleets (the majority of peeps I know). One of those casuals we took to HSE yesterday. Think he managed his first 10k parse ever (and that in HSE) while on most ISA he was always reduced to a role as spectator. Well it worked again! The good ones in team got their thrill, the rookie got a chance to participate and learn what is possible and I got the happy STO experience I wanted.
I think that's why HSE was simplyfied, to give 10% of the teams out there a chance and not just 1%. At times where I sincerely question that enough players for this 1% of teams are even always around in game (or willing to run that map) at any given time I’m also not really opposed to the change.
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Well, I never soloed it, but one time I was just with one other player and we could finnish the mission easely.
Let's do some math. The Unimatrix ship has 1,125,000 hitpoints. Let's say the generators heal it op twice. We have to eat through 3 x 1,125,000 = 3,375,000 hitpoints. Let's say your DPS is 15,000, which is in the DPS league a low number. With this DPS it will take you 3,375,000/15,000 = 225 seconds to destroy the Unimatrix. That is less than 4 minutes
Well the situation is a bit tricky at moment because we got a new specialization, new traits and captain abilities on top of the new skill tree. I really have a hard time telling what precisely relates to my performance increases or if it is all of it but just a bit.
From my understanding of the term “power creep” I also have a bit of an issue with the skill tree. I mean it is the basic skill tree everybody has filled the moment he reaches level 50, so is it even power creep? Selling and marketing plays into it. Otherwise we would not have reskill tokens on sale atm.
As far as the topic of trade-offs are concerned they are most definitely around so I don’t really see any need to fix the new tree at the moment. I have skilled my nine toons all bit differently and my 130k DPS ISA Escort does not end up to be my first choice for an HSE run. I use a more balanced toon there with less DPS but with much more durability thanks to the skill tree options.
If they would want to stop players from rofelstomping ISA over “fixes that may be in order” they would be much better off looking at a handful of highly useful items and traits that have been around much longer than the new tree. They contribute much more to the mystical OP player in ISA dishing out 100k without taking a scratch than the skill revamp ever could.
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I suspect the DPS increase we witness here really originates more from the new strategist spec and/or team benefits gained by others using frenzy e.g. rather than the available skill tree choices. Sure you can squeeze a bit more DPS out of it when going full tac but you seem not left far behind when you chose not to.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.