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BUG: Strengthened Strengths / Resistible Resists (Fixed on Tribble: 3/3)
borticuscryptic
Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
DISCLAIMER: I apologize in advance if this post ends up going over the heads of some players. I tried to keep it as simple as possible, but it deals with some of the more complicated core mechanics of our combat calculations, so there's only so much I could do to translate it into layman's terms.
Here's a quick terminology guide that might help:
Strength: Any effect which alters the potency of another effect from the same source.
Resistance: Any effect which alters the potency of another effect from a different source.
In other words, you can lower my "resistance" to your damage. You can also increase the "strength" of your own damage. Both increase the damage done to me.
Over the course of the many core mechanic changes/fixes we've been making to facilitate the upcoming Skill Revamp, we came across a fairly substantial error that's in dire need of fixing. In the interest of openness, we feel it's important to notify every one of our intention to fix this error, as it will likely end up having some impact on their combat performance.
The short description of the error is this: Some resistance modifiers can currently be resisted. Some strength modifiers can currently be strengthened.
Why is this a bad thing?
When any one of these bugged buffs or debuffs is applied, it will perform more (or less) effectively than intended, based on the strength/resistance values already affecting the source, or the target. These unexpected values can also end up scaling to extremes not intended to be supported by the game.
RESISTABLE RESISTS
In the case of buffs (positive effects), this bug is impacting a small number of abilities that are intended to grant improvements to resistances, but these powers are under-performing if the target has any resistances already in place (which is pretty much always the case for players).
Resistible resistance debuffs are a far more concerning part of this bug, and fixing the error is likely to impact this part of combat to the greatest extent. Right now, when a resistible resistance debuff is applied to a target that already has a negative resistance value (typically thru the application of another resistance debuff), the resistible effect will be amplified by the negative resistance value. These effects can end up multiplying one another as they get re-applied; with each subsequent application applying a larger and larger debuff value as the target's resistances continue to drop further and further into negative values.
In other words, instead of applying debuffs that inflict the same resistance debuff every time, the first application could do -100 while the next would be -200, and the next -400, and the next -800, and on and on.
STRENGTHENED STRENGTHS
Improving the effectiveness of a strength is the opposite side of the issue listed above -- a re-application of strengths, executed in a certain order, would forever increase subsequent effects, causing an escalation of effects that was never intended to be possible.
This is a big deal. It will likely reduce the performance of all players by at least a small amount, and be particularly noticeable for high-end players. This fact is one of the main reasons we're taking the time to communicate the change ahead of time, so that these players can evaluate the impact this bug fix will have, across the game. And we want to let you know ahead of time, so that you can be prepared for the fix when it arrives.
How much of an impact will this fix have?
We don't have a definite answer to this yet. Based on some initial testing we performed internally, it doesn't appear to have a massive impact, as there are already safety nets built into the power system. For example, a power cannot enhance itself, and there is also a floor on damage resistance debuffs (it diminishes in the same manner as positive resistances). That being said, we're also fairly certain that high-end DPS players that regularly parse their output will notice a difference.
We'll be watching the feedback on this issue very carefully. We're willing to consider making further adjustments to powers that may end up over- or under-performing as a result of this change, as well as potentially taking a look at overall game difficulty if this has that larger impact than we are anticipating. We don't believe it will come to that, to be honest, but it's something worth keeping in mind.
What powers are currently bugged in this way?
There are over 400 powers being fixed. Some are innocuous and invisible (such as mission-related volumes that control NPC behavior) while others are Bridge Officer and Kit Abilities (such as Force Field Dome and Sensor Scan). We won't be providing an entire list of which powers are affected, as it's far more important for us to hear what the actual impact is on the builds and abilities that players actually use in tandem with one another. We feel as though posting the list would cause players to seek out these performance differences, resulting in changes to their gameplay behavior, rather than focusing on how the changes impact the ways they already play.
Now that Character Transfer has been re-enabled on Tribble, I'd encourage everyone that might have any concerns about this upcoming fix to copy their character over there now and work up a build translation that closely matches your Holodeck performance levels, so that they can see first-hand how it all shakes out when the fix arrives (probably next week).
Here's the Character Transfer page: http://www.arcgames.com/en/my/character/copy/sto
Also, if you're the type of player that's willing and capable of providing comparative combat log parses from before and after this fix goes in, we'd be happy to take a look at them.
Here's a quick terminology guide that might help:
Strength: Any effect which alters the potency of another effect from the same source.
Resistance: Any effect which alters the potency of another effect from a different source.
In other words, you can lower my "resistance" to your damage. You can also increase the "strength" of your own damage. Both increase the damage done to me.
Over the course of the many core mechanic changes/fixes we've been making to facilitate the upcoming Skill Revamp, we came across a fairly substantial error that's in dire need of fixing. In the interest of openness, we feel it's important to notify every one of our intention to fix this error, as it will likely end up having some impact on their combat performance.
The short description of the error is this: Some resistance modifiers can currently be resisted. Some strength modifiers can currently be strengthened.
Why is this a bad thing?
When any one of these bugged buffs or debuffs is applied, it will perform more (or less) effectively than intended, based on the strength/resistance values already affecting the source, or the target. These unexpected values can also end up scaling to extremes not intended to be supported by the game.
RESISTABLE RESISTS
In the case of buffs (positive effects), this bug is impacting a small number of abilities that are intended to grant improvements to resistances, but these powers are under-performing if the target has any resistances already in place (which is pretty much always the case for players).
Resistible resistance debuffs are a far more concerning part of this bug, and fixing the error is likely to impact this part of combat to the greatest extent. Right now, when a resistible resistance debuff is applied to a target that already has a negative resistance value (typically thru the application of another resistance debuff), the resistible effect will be amplified by the negative resistance value. These effects can end up multiplying one another as they get re-applied; with each subsequent application applying a larger and larger debuff value as the target's resistances continue to drop further and further into negative values.
In other words, instead of applying debuffs that inflict the same resistance debuff every time, the first application could do -100 while the next would be -200, and the next -400, and the next -800, and on and on.
STRENGTHENED STRENGTHS
Improving the effectiveness of a strength is the opposite side of the issue listed above -- a re-application of strengths, executed in a certain order, would forever increase subsequent effects, causing an escalation of effects that was never intended to be possible.
This is a big deal. It will likely reduce the performance of all players by at least a small amount, and be particularly noticeable for high-end players. This fact is one of the main reasons we're taking the time to communicate the change ahead of time, so that these players can evaluate the impact this bug fix will have, across the game. And we want to let you know ahead of time, so that you can be prepared for the fix when it arrives.
How much of an impact will this fix have?
We don't have a definite answer to this yet. Based on some initial testing we performed internally, it doesn't appear to have a massive impact, as there are already safety nets built into the power system. For example, a power cannot enhance itself, and there is also a floor on damage resistance debuffs (it diminishes in the same manner as positive resistances). That being said, we're also fairly certain that high-end DPS players that regularly parse their output will notice a difference.
We'll be watching the feedback on this issue very carefully. We're willing to consider making further adjustments to powers that may end up over- or under-performing as a result of this change, as well as potentially taking a look at overall game difficulty if this has that larger impact than we are anticipating. We don't believe it will come to that, to be honest, but it's something worth keeping in mind.
What powers are currently bugged in this way?
There are over 400 powers being fixed. Some are innocuous and invisible (such as mission-related volumes that control NPC behavior) while others are Bridge Officer and Kit Abilities (such as Force Field Dome and Sensor Scan). We won't be providing an entire list of which powers are affected, as it's far more important for us to hear what the actual impact is on the builds and abilities that players actually use in tandem with one another. We feel as though posting the list would cause players to seek out these performance differences, resulting in changes to their gameplay behavior, rather than focusing on how the changes impact the ways they already play.
Now that Character Transfer has been re-enabled on Tribble, I'd encourage everyone that might have any concerns about this upcoming fix to copy their character over there now and work up a build translation that closely matches your Holodeck performance levels, so that they can see first-hand how it all shakes out when the fix arrives (probably next week).
Here's the Character Transfer page: http://www.arcgames.com/en/my/character/copy/sto
Also, if you're the type of player that's willing and capable of providing comparative combat log parses from before and after this fix goes in, we'd be happy to take a look at them.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Post edited by borticuscryptic on
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Comments
The rest made it understandable.
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
sci buff 2016
tact nerf 2016
enig...something 2016, do they even play?
The best content to use would be anything where your performance is consistent - no wide swings in DPS or Time-to-Complete or whatever you want to track. The more consistent, the better.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
On tribble every time I warp in, I just warp out.
yeah had that happen earlier.
So -- probably one of the Romulan maps like Beta Thoridor (sp). Simply because almost non-stop combat and the map has Klingons which have straight-forward abilities.
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
Might recommend testing the STF missions starting with normal and working up to elite. Even noticed in normal modes that the targets are far more difficult to damage than the single player map counter parts. The bug can also be found with the patrols in the Delta quad when increasing difficulty levels.
From how Borticus has described in the bug, I think it is the same one.
Thank you for posting this in advance. I look forward to trying this out.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
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I was thinking the same thing. Tanking has always been inconsistent. I hope this fixes it.
If i'm right, i will be VERY happy with the end result...
We can change queue timers on Tribble without patching the data, but I don't think we can change patrol lockouts so easily.
I'd recommend Tau Dewa patrols, for solo testing. Make a loop of the relevant combat patrols, and parse before and after. By the time you finish a loop, the first is usually off lockout, or about to be.
That said, when this bug gets fixed, the largest impact will be felt in group encounters. In fact, large group queues - like CC - will probably see the largest impact. But, that's also not a safe testing ground for this, since it will never be an entirely consistent experience.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thanks for the reply. If it is possible it would be nice to have the timers removed to do 10 runs of the same patrol in a roll for the sake of brevity. Not sure if the Tribble queues are working at the moment, the last few times I tried with a pug we managed to enter, but then got immediately ejected before the stf could start.
My character Tsin'xing
I know that there's not a lot of stability with builds on Tribble, nor any way to ensure 100% parity with Holodeck builds. The testing won't quite be as flawless as we would've liked, due to the number of other underpinning mechanics that are still in flux. I trust folks to still take a poke at this and let us know if anything seems terribly amiss. Just do your best!
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
My theory on how and who to test this since it involves resists. DPS crew spamming attack pattern beta along with pets that use attack pattern beta, and all using coalition disruptor beams which in theory work correctly now (haven't tested them since the fix) and should sometimes stack procs if the whole team uses them. If I understand the problem right, the Holodeck damage should be more than the Tribble one. Pick a queue with targets that can soak up damage for a while.
Thank you!
I run a few sector Patrols on tribble, the first thing I noticed is no more unrealistic crits. My max was 13k on a TS3. Hop over to Holo do the same thing in same build, highest was 37k.
My English is limited. I cant understand this patch exactly.
Can you explain to me with examples?
(something like this: pen mod was able to stack and now it cant, or the all dmge buffs are sometimes really all dmg buff, sometimes they are not, all dmg buffs can buff each other or not etc.)
Thank you.
We aren't supposed to know EXACTLY what changed. whatever is 'broken' here is still broken on Holodeck, so if we are told what the exploit is, it could be easily abused on the real server.
We can have fun guessing though...
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Little bit of both, to be fair. Well, maybe a lot of both.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"