test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

BUG: Strengthened Strengths / Resistible Resists (Fixed on Tribble: 3/3)

borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
DISCLAIMER: I apologize in advance if this post ends up going over the heads of some players. I tried to keep it as simple as possible, but it deals with some of the more complicated core mechanics of our combat calculations, so there's only so much I could do to translate it into layman's terms.

Here's a quick terminology guide that might help:

Strength: Any effect which alters the potency of another effect from the same source.
Resistance: Any effect which alters the potency of another effect from a different source.

In other words, you can lower my "resistance" to your damage. You can also increase the "strength" of your own damage. Both increase the damage done to me.



Over the course of the many core mechanic changes/fixes we've been making to facilitate the upcoming Skill Revamp, we came across a fairly substantial error that's in dire need of fixing. In the interest of openness, we feel it's important to notify every one of our intention to fix this error, as it will likely end up having some impact on their combat performance.

The short description of the error is this: Some resistance modifiers can currently be resisted. Some strength modifiers can currently be strengthened.

Why is this a bad thing?

When any one of these bugged buffs or debuffs is applied, it will perform more (or less) effectively than intended, based on the strength/resistance values already affecting the source, or the target. These unexpected values can also end up scaling to extremes not intended to be supported by the game.

RESISTABLE RESISTS

In the case of buffs (positive effects), this bug is impacting a small number of abilities that are intended to grant improvements to resistances, but these powers are under-performing if the target has any resistances already in place (which is pretty much always the case for players).

Resistible resistance debuffs are a far more concerning part of this bug, and fixing the error is likely to impact this part of combat to the greatest extent. Right now, when a resistible resistance debuff is applied to a target that already has a negative resistance value (typically thru the application of another resistance debuff), the resistible effect will be amplified by the negative resistance value. These effects can end up multiplying one another as they get re-applied; with each subsequent application applying a larger and larger debuff value as the target's resistances continue to drop further and further into negative values.

In other words, instead of applying debuffs that inflict the same resistance debuff every time, the first application could do -100 while the next would be -200, and the next -400, and the next -800, and on and on.

STRENGTHENED STRENGTHS

Improving the effectiveness of a strength is the opposite side of the issue listed above -- a re-application of strengths, executed in a certain order, would forever increase subsequent effects, causing an escalation of effects that was never intended to be possible.



This is a big deal. It will likely reduce the performance of all players by at least a small amount, and be particularly noticeable for high-end players. This fact is one of the main reasons we're taking the time to communicate the change ahead of time, so that these players can evaluate the impact this bug fix will have, across the game. And we want to let you know ahead of time, so that you can be prepared for the fix when it arrives.

How much of an impact will this fix have?

We don't have a definite answer to this yet. Based on some initial testing we performed internally, it doesn't appear to have a massive impact, as there are already safety nets built into the power system. For example, a power cannot enhance itself, and there is also a floor on damage resistance debuffs (it diminishes in the same manner as positive resistances). That being said, we're also fairly certain that high-end DPS players that regularly parse their output will notice a difference.

We'll be watching the feedback on this issue very carefully. We're willing to consider making further adjustments to powers that may end up over- or under-performing as a result of this change, as well as potentially taking a look at overall game difficulty if this has that larger impact than we are anticipating. We don't believe it will come to that, to be honest, but it's something worth keeping in mind.

What powers are currently bugged in this way?

There are over 400 powers being fixed. Some are innocuous and invisible (such as mission-related volumes that control NPC behavior) while others are Bridge Officer and Kit Abilities (such as Force Field Dome and Sensor Scan). We won't be providing an entire list of which powers are affected, as it's far more important for us to hear what the actual impact is on the builds and abilities that players actually use in tandem with one another. We feel as though posting the list would cause players to seek out these performance differences, resulting in changes to their gameplay behavior, rather than focusing on how the changes impact the ways they already play.

Now that Character Transfer has been re-enabled on Tribble, I'd encourage everyone that might have any concerns about this upcoming fix to copy their character over there now and work up a build translation that closely matches your Holodeck performance levels, so that they can see first-hand how it all shakes out when the fix arrives (probably next week).

Here's the Character Transfer page: http://www.arcgames.com/en/my/character/copy/sto

Also, if you're the type of player that's willing and capable of providing comparative combat log parses from before and after this fix goes in, we'd be happy to take a look at them.

Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Post edited by borticuscryptic on
«1

Comments

  • primar13primar13 Member Posts: 1,896 Bug Hunter
    Yeah you're right... the Second Paragragh of the Resistible Resists, was funny in its circularity? LOL

    The rest made it understandable. :)
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    In other words, instead of applying debuffs that inflict the same resistance debuff every time, the first application could do -100 while the next would be -200, and the next -400, and the next -800, and on and on.
    Ouch, that does sound bad. Hopefully everyone sees this as the fix it is, and not an evil evil meanie nerf because you hate us all.
  • jonathanlonehawkjonathanlonehawk Member Posts: 674 Arc User
    Is there a PvE area you recommend using for the parsing? ISA requires a team and then you'll get different results depending on team make-up. I've already recreated my Holodeck build and it appears to be pretty much the same performance-wise. So if the community can decide on a map to use for parsing, I think that would help a great deal.
    Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    STOSIG.png
    Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
  • hajmyishajmyis Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

    sci buff 2016
    tact nerf 2016
    enig...something 2016, do they even play?
    "Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    Is there a PvE area you recommend using for the parsing?

    The best content to use would be anything where your performance is consistent - no wide swings in DPS or Time-to-Complete or whatever you want to track. The more consistent, the better.

    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • hajmyishajmyis Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    Is there a PvE area you recommend using for the parsing?

    The best content to use would be anything where your performance is consistent - no wide swings in DPS or Time-to-Complete or whatever you want to track. The more consistent, the better.

    On tribble every time I warp in, I just warp out.
    "Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
  • primar13primar13 Member Posts: 1,896 Bug Hunter
    hajmyis wrote: »
    Is there a PvE area you recommend using for the parsing?

    The best content to use would be anything where your performance is consistent - no wide swings in DPS or Time-to-Complete or whatever you want to track. The more consistent, the better.

    On tribble every time I warp in, I just warp out.

    yeah had that happen earlier.
  • jonathanlonehawkjonathanlonehawk Member Posts: 674 Arc User
    Is there a PvE area you recommend using for the parsing?

    The best content to use would be anything where your performance is consistent - no wide swings in DPS or Time-to-Complete or whatever you want to track. The more consistent, the better.

    So -- probably one of the Romulan maps like Beta Thoridor (sp). Simply because almost non-stop combat and the map has Klingons which have straight-forward abilities.
    Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    STOSIG.png
    Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
  • eclipsoreclipsor Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    Beta thoridar sounds good, but should be played on advanced or elite, otherwise the klinks might not be spongy enough for some setups to get a consistent parse - since crits are a thing.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    Thank you. I amour/hull tank and long suspected something odd was happening but never managed to prove anything. One day I could tank multiple ships without shields and the next day I would die in seconds and this could well explain that. Armour tanking was always very inconsistent and the stacking negative resistance could well explain what I was running into.
  • gravoid12gravoid12 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Everything described sounds exactly like the current bug issues in the stf's. Starting back with Delta, the npc's have been noticeably more resilient to damage than they where before the level increase.

    Might recommend testing the STF missions starting with normal and working up to elite. Even noticed in normal modes that the targets are far more difficult to damage than the single player map counter parts. The bug can also be found with the patrols in the Delta quad when increasing difficulty levels.

    From how Borticus has described in the bug, I think it is the same one.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Thank you for posting this. The way I understand this, is that it'll affect the high-end more than it will the low-end of builds and runs. While it will potentially lower DPS output, I think this fix is a good thing and comes at a good time.

    Thank you for posting this in advance. I look forward to trying this out.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    This will be interesting, I think. Maybe in the Chinese sense. ;)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Thank you. I amour/hull tank and long suspected something odd was happening but never managed to prove anything. One day I could tank multiple ships without shields and the next day I would die in seconds and this could well explain that. Armour tanking was always very inconsistent and the stacking negative resistance could well explain what I was running into.

    I was thinking the same thing. Tanking has always been inconsistent. I hope this fixes it.
  • banatinebanatine Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    Well... I THINK i was able to follow that :)

    If i'm right, i will be VERY happy with the end result...
    Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
  • genemorphgenemorph Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    It would be nice if the 30min timers on the patrol missions on Tribble could be removed to help facilitate the testing of this when it hits. Actually it would also help the testing of the skill revamp and any future testing, so just removing it permanently would be great.
  • totenmettotenmet Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    Removed
    Post edited by totenmet on
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    [Derailing comment modded]
    Post edited by jodarkrider on
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    genemorph wrote: »
    It would be nice if the 30min timers on the patrol missions on Tribble could be removed to help facilitate the testing of this when it hits. Actually it would also help the testing of the skill revamp and any future testing, so just removing it permanently would be great.

    We can change queue timers on Tribble without patching the data, but I don't think we can change patrol lockouts so easily.

    I'd recommend Tau Dewa patrols, for solo testing. Make a loop of the relevant combat patrols, and parse before and after. By the time you finish a loop, the first is usually off lockout, or about to be.

    That said, when this bug gets fixed, the largest impact will be felt in group encounters. In fact, large group queues - like CC - will probably see the largest impact. But, that's also not a safe testing ground for this, since it will never be an entirely consistent experience.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • genemorphgenemorph Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    It would be nice if the 30min timers on the patrol missions on Tribble could be removed to help facilitate the testing of this when it hits. Actually it would also help the testing of the skill revamp and any future testing, so just removing it permanently would be great.

    We can change queue timers on Tribble without patching the data, but I don't think we can change patrol lockouts so easily.

    I'd recommend Tau Dewa patrols, for solo testing. Make a loop of the relevant combat patrols, and parse before and after. By the time you finish a loop, the first is usually off lockout, or about to be.

    That said, when this bug gets fixed, the largest impact will be felt in group encounters. In fact, large group queues - like CC - will probably see the largest impact. But, that's also not a safe testing ground for this, since it will never be an entirely consistent experience.

    Thanks for the reply. If it is possible it would be nice to have the timers removed to do 10 runs of the same patrol in a roll for the sake of brevity. Not sure if the Tribble queues are working at the moment, the last few times I tried with a pug we managed to enter, but then got immediately ejected before the stf could start.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    In other words, instead of applying debuffs that inflict the same resistance debuff every time, the first application could do -100 while the next would be -200, and the next -400, and the next -800, and on and on.
    Ouch, that does sound bad. Hopefully everyone sees this as the fix it is, and not an evil evil meanie nerf because you hate us all.
    *points at APB stacking* :p
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    These changes just landed today.

    I know that there's not a lot of stability with builds on Tribble, nor any way to ensure 100% parity with Holodeck builds. The testing won't quite be as flawless as we would've liked, due to the number of other underpinning mechanics that are still in flux. I trust folks to still take a poke at this and let us know if anything seems terribly amiss. Just do your best!
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2016
    These changes just landed today.

    I know that there's not a lot of stability with builds on Tribble, nor any way to ensure 100% parity with Holodeck builds. The testing won't quite be as flawless as we would've liked, due to the number of other underpinning mechanics that are still in flux. I trust folks to still take a poke at this and let us know if anything seems terribly amiss. Just do your best!

    My theory on how and who to test this since it involves resists. DPS crew spamming attack pattern beta along with pets that use attack pattern beta, and all using coalition disruptor beams which in theory work correctly now (haven't tested them since the fix) and should sometimes stack procs if the whole team uses them. If I understand the problem right, the Holodeck damage should be more than the Tribble one. Pick a queue with targets that can soak up damage for a while.
  • hajmyishajmyis Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    These changes just landed today.

    I know that there's not a lot of stability with builds on Tribble, nor any way to ensure 100% parity with Holodeck builds. The testing won't quite be as flawless as we would've liked, due to the number of other underpinning mechanics that are still in flux. I trust folks to still take a poke at this and let us know if anything seems terribly amiss. Just do your best!

    Thank you!

    I run a few sector Patrols on tribble, the first thing I noticed is no more unrealistic crits. My max was 13k on a TS3. Hop over to Holo do the same thing in same build, highest was 37k.
    "Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
  • trollson1trollson1 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Hi guyz!
    My English is limited. I cant understand this patch exactly.
    Can you explain to me with examples?
    (something like this: pen mod was able to stack and now it cant, or the all dmge buffs are sometimes really all dmg buff, sometimes they are not, all dmg buffs can buff each other or not etc.)
    Thank you.
  • banatinebanatine Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    trollson1 wrote: »
    Hi guyz!
    My English is limited. I cant understand this patch exactly.
    Can you explain to me with examples?
    (something like this: pen mod was able to stack and now it cant, or the all dmge buffs are sometimes really all dmg buff, sometimes they are not, all dmg buffs can buff each other or not etc.)
    Thank you.

    We aren't supposed to know EXACTLY what changed. whatever is 'broken' here is still broken on Holodeck, so if we are told what the exploit is, it could be easily abused on the real server.

    We can have fun guessing though... :D
    Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    I don't think they aren't telling us exactly what will change to prevent exploits. Rather, I believe they want us to blind test to avoid confirmation bias.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    e30ernest wrote: »
    I don't think they aren't telling us exactly what will change to prevent exploits. Rather, I believe they want us to blind test to avoid confirmation bias.

    Little bit of both, to be fair. Well, maybe a lot of both.

    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • genemorphgenemorph Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    Hi Bort, is it possible to look at the queues again. The fix in the last patch didn't work, it still kicks people out of the instance before you can do anything.
Sign In or Register to comment.