Guys, guys, guys. The normalization is here to stay, but I've said many, many times that individual powers are subject to further tuning.
So please, stop with the dramatic cries of nerf, and let's approach this from a more civil angle -- how much do I need to increase the *base values* of these re-scaled abilities, in order for them to remain competitive and worthwhile in your current builds?
Damn, sorry about my last post. I didn't see you wanted a new base value. I know these are a bit odd (two of them are prime numbers) but they do get the equations sorted out better given the new slope.
ES1 = 13
ES2 = 17
ES3 = 21
Now, if you want to stay with "nice" numbers that look more like the current ones (these do still nerf the ability for drain builds):
Why do I use 508 flow caps in Holodeck and 630 drain in Tribble?
Normalizing things given new possibilities. Again, if the current Tribble R&D science drain consoles get changed, my assumptions change a LOT, specially since we're talking balancing a new slope with a new Y intercept.
P.S. By the way, the easy way to "fix" plasmonic leech is to change the base drain number to 3 and keeping the slope at +1 power every 200 drain skill as it stands in Tribble. Anyway, the kiddos running plasmonic leech for DPS usually run with somewhere around 250-350 flow caps so they won't feel a difference. They won't switch from their plasma embassy consoles to the R&D ones because they would loose DPS.
I copied my main character Ridlluc, a Science Captain flying a Tier 6 Fleet Long Range Science Vessel (Pathfinder), and compared some values.
The builds are of course not 1:1 the same. On Tribble I mostly avoided the 3rd and least effective skill, as I also avoid the 7 to 9th skill rank on Holodeck. I think one difference is likely to be that I will have more Drain Expertise on Tribble then I had the equivalent on Holodeck.
All stats at 130 Auxiliary Power Level with the same gear
Gravity Well III:
-0.29 Repel (Tribble) vs -0.29 Repel Holodeck
1.714 Kinetic Damage per sec vs 1.373.8 Kinetic Damage
Sec Deflector Proc: After 4 Seconds: 7,747.7 Radiation Damage (Tribble) vs 7.723.5 (Holodeck)
More Information on Gravity Well below
Destabilized Resonance Beam II
9487.7 Physical Damage vs 1,463.8 Physical Damage => Notable Difference
At 10 Stacks: Weapons OFfline for 5.8 seconds (Tribble) vs 3.8 seconds (Holodeck)
Drain Corruption Proc: To Target: 266. Electrical Damage every 1 sec for 5 second (max 1x per 5 seconds). vs Does not exist on Holodeck=> What is this skill trying to tell me, and is this is as low as it seems.
Quantum Phase Torpedo
8,142.1 Kinetic Damage (814.2 DPS) (Tribble) vs 7.662 Kinetic Damage (799.2 DPS) (Holodeck) => Slight difference, might be due to different skilling
Quantum Phase Torp Special: -3,165.9 all Shields (Tribble) vs -2,703 All Shields (Holdeck) => Improvement, probably due to better skilling in drain abilities.
Quantum Phase Torpedo with Torpedo Spread III
5,522.7 Kinetic Damage x3 (Tribble) vs 5.448.3 Kinetic Damage x 3 (Holodeck)
Quantum Phase Torp Special: -18,995 all Shields (Tribble) vs 16,223 all Shields (Holodeck) => Improvement, probably du to better skilling in drain abilities.
Neutronic Torpedo
10,063.6 Kinetic Damage (Tribble) vs 9.878.1 Kinetic Damage (Holodeck)
Neutronic Torp Special: -1,08 Radiation (Tribble) vs 1,381 Radiation (Holodeck)
Neutronic Torp Special Drain: -28.8 All Subsystem Power (Tribble) vs -24.6 All Subsystem Power (Holodeck)
---
That are just the stats I could quickly compare. I then took the ship in combat, Japori and Carraya or what's it called.
I didn't have any real issues, except one thing: It seemed to me that my Gravity Well didn't have the same range as it used to be. I know that the Repel values between Holodeck and Tribble seem identical, but IIRC, Graviton Generators affected the distance/range of Gravity Well, and there is no stat that would allow me to see this.
I think this needs further evaluation. I haven't run any hard tests yet where I could test this precisely, unfortunately.
But, the biggest question for me after this little test is: Is the effect on the range of powers like Gravity Well from Control Expertise different than from Graviton Generators?
Since I am generally lazy, I'd love someone else to make some more detailed test on this, but maybe I'll find the time in the weekend, too. (But maybe not.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Guys, guys, guys. The normalization is here to stay, but I've said many, many times that individual powers are subject to further tuning.
So please, stop with the dramatic cries of nerf, and let's approach this from a more civil angle -- how much do I need to increase the *base values* of these re-scaled abilities, in order for them to remain competitive and worthwhile in your current builds?
Personally, I'd say buff the base values back up so that the equations will keep them on par with, or maybe slightly lower than, what's on Holodeck now after similar Skill Point investments.
I, like others who are steaming, have invested in at least 1 PartGen-heavy build. I love it. It lets me do damage in a way that makes sense for the my Science character (Deflectors and smarts, not brute force BFAW). If the values on the re-balance are going to hurt abilities to the point of not being worthwhile, there's no point in keeping that character going, which lessens my desire to play, honestly.
EDIT: Removed a line that, in retrospect, was very passive-aggressive in tone. Also, if mustrumridcully0's information holds, science may not be as hurt, but instead just 1 ability (which, being so noticeable, needs to be buffed in base stats).
So yeah copied over a sci carrier and even with the new stuff only managed 12 points in tactical when trying to replicate my KDf science build. The only carrier that will get to 20 points in tactical are tactical captains escort carriers and stupid people who don't know how to play. Perhaps that's what they want are stupid people who are willing to spend 5$ over and over trying to stay alive while putting 20 points into tactical on a sci heavy carrier. I don't think tac captains want 20 points in tactical(which is why this was changed in the 1st place) why should a sci captain have to.
Yeah I agree with the need for normalization, but I hope they adjust base values so that when this update rolls over to live, it won't be a major nerf to Science builds.
Please tell us that the requirement for purchasing these points as-you-go is going to change? As it is right now, we have to choose a point, and then purchase it. That is not going to work for a lot of folks.
Even the first point spent will require a retrain token to undo? Not going to be a lot of happy campers out there.
So, now with my main character on Tribble, I'll try to start leaving some feedback. He's a KDF liberated borg engineer. Disclaimer: I'd built him as a bit of a generalist, so this character design probably benefits from the new skill system the most.
I was able to easily replicate the character, in terms of skills, with quite a few spare skill points to tinker ( something like 12 ). I was generally tougher and output more damage ( particularly in ground ).
Question: I vaguely recall the hull healing skill saying it affected hull regeneration. In terms of replicating my build, does this mean I should put points in both hull healing and hull regen?
Some oddities:
- I found the hull regeneration line not very enticing. With 3 skill points, the in-combat regeneration bonus works out to be something like 150/second on a 88k hull ship (if I read the tool-tip correctly ) Maybe that's just me. I guess it would be hard to balance against active hull healing, which require bridge officer abilities, traits, or gear. This leads to:
- Being interested in passive regeneration ( mostly due to the borg nature of the character ) I tried out the new consoles that replaced crew regeneration with hull regeneration.. I forget the new name. The console ( at green Mk XIV ) says it regenerates 6% of maximum hull per 6 seconds ( and twice that out of combat ). That sounds fantastic ( possibly too fantastic? but it is a science console, so competes directly with major sources of DPS, such as the fleet science consoles ). However, testing showed it bumped up my in combat regen from something like 48% per minute to 48.5% per minute. Not at all what was advertised. So, basically, something is off. Either the console is working as intended but displays the incorrect information, or the console is not working as intended, or, possibly, the in combat status display of my ship was reporting the incorrect numbers.
A suggestion:
- It would be really helpful if the Ship Status window listed in and out of combat regeneration at the same time, rather than have to go off to fight and pop up the Status window mid-fight to see how things are working.
I still have to test science stuff on him. He was meant to pilot a wide range of ship types, but wasn't super specialized at any one thing, so it might provide a good viewpoint there. I'll try to test things out this weekend.
The nerf to Drain abilities is unacceptable. There absolutely no justification for this. Drain abilities where already weak and needed a buff, especially against certain NPCs that where totally immune.
Agreed. Cuttng the effectiveness in half of the Leech alone already comstitutes a major overall nerf; subsidiarily doesn't mesh with "Players lose nothing!"
And yes, we got some new skills, but at least half of those are needed to compensate for the loss (aka, also 'nerf') in other areas, like shield/hull regen.
Question: I vaguely recall the hull healing skill saying it affected hull regeneration. In terms of replicating my build, does this mean I should put points in both hull healing and hull regen?
That is correct, the old hull healing included passive regeneration, the new hull healing does not.
A suggestion:
- It would be really helpful if the Ship Status window listed in and out of combat regeneration at the same time, rather than have to go off to fight and pop up the Status window mid-fight to see how things are working.
Frankly, they could just skip telling us what the out of combat numbers are, it's only the in combat numbers anyone cares about.
It would also be nice if they could add shield hardness to the stat window, now that we can modify it.
"Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -Agatha Heterodyne
The nerf to Drain abilities is unacceptable. There absolutely no justification for this. Drain abilities where already weak and needed a buff, especially against certain NPCs that where totally immune.
Agreed. Cuttng the effectiveness in half of the Leech alone already comstitutes a major overall nerf; subsidiarily doesn't mesh with "Players lose nothing!"
And yes, we got some new skills, but at least half of those are needed to compensate for the loss (aka, also 'nerf') in other areas, like shield/hull regen.
I agree. Just checked out my main on tribble, seen that leech was only pulling 1.8 per activation now, with 2 embassy consoles. I was at or near 3.0 per activation on holodeck.
Not going to work for me at all, considering I'm already low on power in the Scimitar as it is.
Please tell us that the requirement for purchasing these points as-you-go is going to change? As it is right now, we have to choose a point, and then purchase it. That is not going to work for a lot of folks.
Even the first point spent will require a retrain token to undo? Not going to be a lot of happy campers out there.
This point keeps getting brought up... And i REALLY dont understand it at all...
This is EXACTLY how the current system works as well. You choose an option, you confirm, and its set. Explain how this new system is in any way more punitive that the current one?
i dont see how you can 'mess up' in this system without outright refusing to read any of the skills you are actually putting points into.
Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
EPG: 363.6
ControlX: 171.4 (+100 from skills vs. +84)
DrainX: 197.6 (+100 from skills vs. +84)
My Sarr Theln drain build, Dysnomia@dragonsbrethren:
Holodeck:
Partigens: 129.6
Gravigens: 84
Flowcaps: 358.2
Tribble
EPG: 45.6 (+0 from skills vs. +84)
ControlX: 219.4 (+100 from skills vs. +54)
DrainX: 359.2
Since we don't have a Science tab in our stats on Tribble, this was done by adding up my consoles, skills, and trait values. It's possible I missed something or screwed up somewhere, but I've double checked the values.
From what I'm seeing here, there's actually not all that much difference between the stats I'm focusing on between Holodeck and Tribble. What were secondary stats for the builds, however, are higher on Tribble.
I hope that helps with tuning these correctly, since while it's now possible to push these focus skills higher, in practice, it's not happening (yet, anyway).
Plus THREAT option is now out of reach of true tank builds.
With the position changes, the plus/minus threat bonus was moved so far down the Tac tree that true tanks can not reach it. They are the ones that really need it. Under the old system you could always get threat skills no mater how much you had in tac abilities. Please move the skill back up the tree some.
What is a true tank? Every tank tree I've seen invests as heavily in Tactical skills as they do Engineering. You need to deal damage to pull threat. You should post an example tree of your tank that's not able to reach Threat Control.
(Now, there is definitely a problem with Carriers reaching the pet skills, particularly Science Carriers.)
Please tell us that the requirement for purchasing these points as-you-go is going to change? As it is right now, we have to choose a point, and then purchase it. That is not going to work for a lot of folks.
Even the first point spent will require a retrain token to undo? Not going to be a lot of happy campers out there.
This point keeps getting brought up... And i REALLY dont understand it at all...
This is EXACTLY how the current system works as well. You choose an option, you confirm, and its set. Explain how this new system is in any way more punitive that the current one?
i dont see how you can 'mess up' in this system without outright refusing to read any of the skills you are actually putting points into.
It is not the same on holodeck. On holodeck, you can completely fill out the entire tree, and then hit accept. You can not do this on the new system. It is point by point. You choose a point, and you accept it.
I can fill out the entire tree on live, get it set up how I like and then accept it. I do not have to accept points to unlock the next rank. As it is on tribble right now, I can not lay out the entire tree and make changes before accepting. We are losing the ability to do this.
My Thought is to Combine RANK 1 ONLY of the Energy/Kinetic Proficiency into one Skill.
Rank 2 and 3 would Stay as separate Items That Branch out from Rank One. One Branch for Energy and one for Torpedo
This would serve 2 Purposes, it would provide newer players with a boost to both types, While opening a spot in the Skill Tree for another ability, that will also Help Newer Players.
My Suggested Ability, is a Skill Unlock for the Lieutenant Tactical Section. (That would have stats that Scale with rank, if need be)
This is designed to help players combat the enemies they face in the lower levels, Specifically Klingons, Orions, and Gorn Vessels who very much love their Hold abilities. It would also have a tertiary effect of helping against the Borg, Undine, and some other Higher level Mobs from Delta Rising. IMHO Accuracy is one of those things that newer Players will get the most use of, since they start with such a low Accuracy Stat. Its Not Something that the High End Players are really gonna have all that much use for, so it shouldn't affect Power Creep all that much, which was my intent.
I'm not real good at picking awesome ability names, so I'm totally open to suggestions there! Maybe Something like "All She's got isn't Good Enough!"
It's meant to make the player feel like they are in that moment in every good trek episode, where the Ship is Caught in a Gravity Well, or a Tractor Beam, and they put their minds together to come up with a solution. Then out of no where, fire a Fatal Shot to Destroy the Ship and blast off as the Ship explodes behind them.
Ability Stats:
When under the Effect of a Hold. Examples: (TB, Grav Well, Tykens Rift)
All Effect Lost 2 Seconds After Escape from Hold.
+2 All subsystem Power Per Second Held (Stack 5 Times)
+7% Stacking Hit Chance (Accuracy) Per Second Held (Stacks 5 Times) (Cannot Spill over into CrtH/CrtD)
+12% Flight Friction Per Second Held (Stacks 5 Times) (Ionic Turbulence Debuffs for 60%, so I just went with that in the opposite direction)
+25% Torpedo Haste While Held (Effect Lost After 2 Successful Torpedo Firing Cycles)
Resets Cloak Cooldown to 5 Seconds (So you can Run if need be)
Just to reiterate in case it got buried. I had problems twice yesterday with tactical tree related science recipe unlocks. I randomly had 1 or 2 abilities that failed to appear in the officer training R&D window even after I got the "Unlocked" message. Viral Matrix 3 in particular was concerning. I got the message after spending more points than necessary and even then it wasn't available to be created. Had the same problem during another respec with Jam Sensors 3.
@borticuscryptic Guess my sci fed is one of the many captains that will benefit from the change. In the end, I had more engine and aux power overall, and more damage from part gens with no boosting counsels on my current ship. DPS was within 2 points according to weapon tab stats, and only lost about 60 HP on a ship that had 87662 HP on Holodeck, and 5 shield HP. Resistances and flight speed went up, turn rate went down slightly (0.1 degree/sec). Crtd and Crth went up slightly. Shield regen rate more than doubled, but hull repair rate went down 36%. Bonus defense might have gone down, or isn't showing or working on Tribble, since it stayed at 5% while the ship was stopped. Bonus power from EptS and EptW also went up. Stealth detection went up as well if I chose the bonus to 200.64 from 167.35, otherwise it went down to ~100.
The only skill in space that I saw that went down dramatically percentagewise was Tac Team I, which the bonuses were cut in half from 18 Starship Energy and Projectile Training to 9 in both categories. I have to do some testing with ground, but at the moment, I'm getting more base damage resist and weapon damage, but slightly less damage resist debuff and healing on skills after my first attempt. HP went up as well, since it's required in order to get the bonuses to armor.
I still have to do testing on my tac Klingon, but it seems right now everything is close enough, with the issue of no base passive ground healing during combat. All in all, not bad for generalized builds. I do like the suggestion in the thread to move the pet bonus choice to earlier in the tac line since the carriers lean toward science anyway. Even moving it to 15, inbetween the projectile and energy choices would help.
In conclusion, it gives me a bit more flexibility if I want to mess around with some more skills for fun. It won't be doom and gloom for most people once the update hits, and games are supposed to be about fun, not just numbers. Good job.
I hardly comment in these main forums here, but I wanted to leave feedback opinion based on leveling last week and playing with my imported main Fed (Human) Tac last night/this morning. As a little background, I am a life subscriber from the beta days of 1/2010. While I have a phlethora of ships, including Bugship and Iconian Vonph, I exclusively fly Galaxy-X vessels (and currently, Yamato-class)... enduring the hardship & stigma of its design over the year... lol. I achieved Diamond/75K channel status in DPS league with my current Yamato iteration, recently punching through the 80K barrier consistently sans saucer separation.
Observations:
The leveling up experience is somewhat slow and tedious. This is from a player who has not leveled an alt since beta aside from his current main, and the alts on Tribble (that have been wiped). The new skill system itself is nice, there are choices to be made which while leveling give the feel of uniqueness, but I can't help but wonder if at the end (level 50+), will most people's characters look the same.
Why should characters look the same? Just like in the original system, there are skills... and there are essential skills. Who is not going to try and pick up levels to optimize their Crit H and Crit D? As the dust settles, players will bear similarities akin to what exist now. Perhaps this is as intended? If so, it runs counter to the statements propagated by our Cryptic friends that they want to promote choice and diversity.
Let us take my main as an example for Space skills. I interpreted my character's skills on Holodeck to the new system on Tribble last weekend, taking into account the elimination of some skills in the new system and trying to match equivalents in the new system. It was a fairly simple exercise, if one simply rigorously applied a consistent set of standards based on the bonus achieved and their equivalent on Holodeck. In the end, I used 38 of my total 46 points in the interpretation of existing skills to the new system. I applaud Cryptic for being spot-on. I do not consider my character as an "Edge" case. The conversion process did yield some extra points to allow for new choices (no Ultimates for me).
From my point of view, I think it is good that players are given real choices: choices that have consequences, where players do not feel there is one better/required choice than the other. As such, the more real choices that exist, and the scarcity of points available to purchase them, the more diverse game play will be. At this moment in time, I feel the 46 point max limit is fairly good. While I feel players are able to get most (but not all) desirable Space skills with this, I also can ruminate the merits of more points at this value as well. Perhaps a +1 Skill point to Federation races (as many players will choice Alien race to get the extra trait). I digress. If the community feels, as players generally are inclined to the direction of power creep, and Cryotic is inclined, I would not advocate more than a couple more skill points allocated even if it is to let people have a greater opportunity to access those Ultimate abilities.
By and large, I am fairly pleased with the balance the revamp displays. Kudos to Cryptic QA for keeping their eye on the ball (translating the status quo while adjusting for a few new things) instead of purposefully nerfing play.
Oh yes, as a Tac Captain, its 17 Eng/14 Sci/ 15 Tactical skill points spent
It is not the same on holodeck. On holodeck, you can completely fill out the entire tree, and then hit accept. You can not do this on the new system. It is point by point. You choose a point, and you accept it.
I can fill out the entire tree on live, get it set up how I like and then accept it. I do not have to accept points to unlock the next rank. As it is on tribble right now, I can not lay out the entire tree and make changes before accepting. We are losing the ability to do this.
Exactly , i dont know why this was seen as a good design choice , it limits the players on designing their builds seeing what they can do without completely committing to the skills . its the one big negative thing i see in the new system considering you have to pay for additional respects and getting one free one doesn't make up for this design .
It is not the same on holodeck. On holodeck, you can completely fill out the entire tree, and then hit accept. You can not do this on the new system. It is point by point. You choose a point, and you accept it.
I can fill out the entire tree on live, get it set up how I like and then accept it. I do not have to accept points to unlock the next rank. As it is on tribble right now, I can not lay out the entire tree and make changes before accepting. We are losing the ability to do this.
Exactly , i dont know why this was seen as a good design choice , it limits the players on designing their builds seeing what they can do without completely committing to the skills . its the one big negative thing i see in the new system considering you have to pay for additional respects and getting one free one doesn't make up for this design .
Exactly. Sounds like they want players to start buying these respec tokens :-P
Players are going to make mistakes, even reading the tooltips. Mis-counting points on the way down will be a big problem for some people. Get down to the bottom and be like..damn! I put one to many points in LT COM and now I do not have enough for the skill I wanted in Admiral.
Proton Particle Stabilizer Console Mark XIV: +19.5 Starship Electro-Plasma System Flow
I noticed that skill names are not consistent yet, I don't know if this could affect whether they are actually applied or not.
Some more power comparisons:
Hazard Emitters II: 16,581 Hit points over 15 seconds (Tribble) vs 17,238 Hit Points over 15 seconds (Holodeck)
Hazard Emitters II: +30.6 All Damage Resistance (Tribble) vs 31.9 All Damage Resistance (Holodeck)
Science Team I: 2.301 Shield Regeneration Once (Tribble) vs 2.294 Shield Regeneration Once (Holodeck)
Gravity Well Range
I still have the feeling that Gravity Well lacks the range it used to. Normally when I target a typical group in the Romulan episodes, I can pretty much catch all of them in a gravity well. This doesn't seem to happen anymore.
I copied my main character Ridlluc, a Science Captain flying a Tier 6 Fleet Long Range Science Vessel (Pathfinder), and compared some values.
The builds are of course not 1:1 the same. On Tribble I mostly avoided the 3rd and least effective skill, as I also avoid the 7 to 9th skill rank on Holodeck. I think one difference is likely to be that I will have more Drain Expertise on Tribble then I had the equivalent on Holodeck.
All stats at 130 Auxiliary Power Level with the same gear
Gravity Well III:
-0.29 Repel (Tribble) vs -0.29 Repel Holodeck
1.714 Kinetic Damage per sec vs 1.373.8 Kinetic Damage
Sec Deflector Proc: After 4 Seconds: 7,747.7 Radiation Damage (Tribble) vs 7.723.5 (Holodeck)
More Information on Gravity Well below
Destabilized Resonance Beam II
9487.7 Physical Damage vs 1,463.8 Physical Damage => Notable Difference
At 10 Stacks: Weapons OFfline for 5.8 seconds (Tribble) vs 3.8 seconds (Holodeck)
Drain Corruption Proc: To Target: 266. Electrical Damage every 1 sec for 5 second (max 1x per 5 seconds). vs Does not exist on Holodeck=> What is this skill trying to tell me, and is this is as low as it seems.
Quantum Phase Torpedo
8,142.1 Kinetic Damage (814.2 DPS) (Tribble) vs 7.662 Kinetic Damage (799.2 DPS) (Holodeck) => Slight difference, might be due to different skilling
Quantum Phase Torp Special: -3,165.9 all Shields (Tribble) vs -2,703 All Shields (Holdeck) => Improvement, probably due to better skilling in drain abilities.
Quantum Phase Torpedo with Torpedo Spread III
5,522.7 Kinetic Damage x3 (Tribble) vs 5.448.3 Kinetic Damage x 3 (Holodeck)
Quantum Phase Torp Special: -18,995 all Shields (Tribble) vs 16,223 all Shields (Holodeck) => Improvement, probably du to better skilling in drain abilities.
Neutronic Torpedo
10,063.6 Kinetic Damage (Tribble) vs 9.878.1 Kinetic Damage (Holodeck)
Neutronic Torp Special: -1,08 Radiation (Tribble) vs 1,381 Radiation (Holodeck)
Neutronic Torp Special Drain: -28.8 All Subsystem Power (Tribble) vs -24.6 All Subsystem Power (Holodeck)
---
That are just the stats I could quickly compare. I then took the ship in combat, Japori and Carraya or what's it called.
I didn't have any real issues, except one thing: It seemed to me that my Gravity Well didn't have the same range as it used to be. I know that the Repel values between Holodeck and Tribble seem identical, but IIRC, Graviton Generators affected the distance/range of Gravity Well, and there is no stat that would allow me to see this.
I think this needs further evaluation. I haven't run any hard tests yet where I could test this precisely, unfortunately.
But, the biggest question for me after this little test is: Is the effect on the range of powers like Gravity Well from Control Expertise different than from Graviton Generators?
Since I am generally lazy, I'd love someone else to make some more detailed test on this, but maybe I'll find the time in the weekend, too. (But maybe not.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Guys, guys, guys. The normalization is here to stay, but I've said many, many times that individual powers are subject to further tuning.
So please, stop with the dramatic cries of nerf, and let's approach this from a more civil angle -- how much do I need to increase the *base values* of these re-scaled abilities, in order for them to remain competitive and worthwhile in your current builds?
I decided to attempt to provide some data for Plasmonic Leech and how base values would affect that, and here is the graph of my results.
The current Holodeck values are the thick yellow line.
It seems that no matter what you do here, there will be some degree of overperforming or underperforming vs Holodeck depending on how much skill point/console investment is made. The choice you have to make is which way to go with this. A base value of 1.5 would match the mid-range (~180-210 flowcaps), but it would overperform in the low end, and underperform in the high end. There doesn't seem to be an easy solution here to make it equivalent to current values on Holodeck. A base value of 1.67 would match the high end (400 flowcaps), but would buff the low-mid range above Holodeck values.
Also, for the people who are claiming to have lost Critical Chance and Critical Severity: nothing in the old system contributed directly to those base stats, so I'm not sure how you lost those. I did notice however that when I copied my toon over, all the boffs unseated, which was a loss of crit stats due to no SROs being seated. Was this your experience as well? When I re-seated the boffs, my base crit values returned to what they are on Holodeck.
Guys, guys, guys. The normalization is here to stay, but I've said many, many times that individual powers are subject to further tuning.
So please, stop with the dramatic cries of nerf, and let's approach this from a more civil angle -- how much do I need to increase the *base values* of these re-scaled abilities, in order for them to remain competitive and worthwhile in your current builds?
I decided to attempt to provide some data for Plasmonic Leech and how base values would affect that, and here is the graph of my results.
The current Holodeck values are the thick yellow line.
It seems that no matter what you do here, there will be some degree of overperforming or underperforming vs Holodeck depending on how much skill point/console investment is made. The choice you have to make is which way to go with this. A base value of 1.5 would match the mid-range (~180-210 flowcaps), but it would overperform in the low end, and underperform in the high end. There doesn't seem to be an easy solution here to make it equivalent to current values on Holodeck. A base value of 1.67 would match the high end (400 flowcaps), but would buff the low-mid range above Holodeck values.
Also, for the people who are claiming to have lost Critical Chance and Critical Severity: nothing in the old system contributed directly to those base stats, so I'm not sure how you lost those. I did notice however that when I copied my toon over, all the boffs unseated, which was a loss of crit stats due to no SROs being seated. Was this your experience as well? When I re-seated the boffs, my base crit values returned to what they are on Holodeck.
This is the last I intend to say on the topic for now, then I hope we can move on to focusing on the rest of the Skill Revamp:
The fact that changes to this single item have dominated so much of a discussion supposedly dedicated to discussing far-reaching systemic changes that are having an impact on hundreds - possibly thousands - of other mechanics, is probably a very strong indicator of a need for we developers to consider substantial modifications to the item in question. No single ability, skill, or piece of equipment should ever have this much control over an entire game and its community, nor be the driving force behind the direction of larger balance modifications we might undertake in the name of the game's long-term health.
In the end, it is likely that Plasmonic Leech will have its effectiveness impacted by this Skill Revamp, and nobody will be happy about it - not the players that may have invested so heavily in obtaining it and building around it, nor the developers who will take the heat for a change that clearly needs to happen. The current values you see on Tribble aren't final, but I can pretty much guarantee that it won't end up doing everything that it previously did.
And that's in everybody's best interest. I don't expect the playerbase to see that, nor expect to hear the end of this statement any time soon.
Now... I don't suppose we could get this thread back to discussing the other hundreds of bugs, inaccuracies and unpolished facets of this system, instead of circling this drain (heh) any longer?
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
This is the last I intend to say on the topic for now, then I hope we can move on to focusing on the rest of the Skill Revamp:
The fact that changes to this single item have dominated so much of a discussion supposedly dedicated to discussing far-reaching systemic changes that are having an impact on hundreds - possibly thousands - of other mechanics, is probably a very strong indicator of a need for we developers to consider substantial modifications to the item in question. No single ability, skill, or piece of equipment should ever have this much control over an entire game and its community, nor be the driving force behind the direction of larger balance modifications we might undertake in the name of the game's long-term health.
In the end, it is likely that Plasmonic Leech will have its effectiveness impacted by this Skill Revamp, and nobody will be happy about it - not the players that may have invested so heavily in obtaining it and building around it, nor the developers who will take the heat for a change that clearly needs to happen. The current values you see on Tribble aren't final, but I can pretty much guarantee that it won't end up doing everything that it previously did.
And that's in everybody's best interest. I don't expect the playerbase to see that, nor expect to hear the end of this statement any time soon.
Now... I don't suppose we could get this thread back to discussing the other hundreds of bugs, inaccuracies and unpolished facets of this system, instead of circling this drain (heh) any longer?
I'd just like to say I agree completely with this.
I remember years ago when the Plasmonic Leech was first introduced, back then ship consoles were still "bound" to their ships and could not use anywhere else, which was fine and it was balanced around that.
Removing that restriction shortly after was pretty much opening pandora's box, and adding it to the lockbox only compounded issues.
I'm kind of glad its effectiveness is being reduced as it makes the MACO shields finally seem like a viable alternative again, and not like one is being penalized for using them over the Leech.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Comments
Damn, sorry about my last post. I didn't see you wanted a new base value. I know these are a bit odd (two of them are prime numbers) but they do get the equations sorted out better given the new slope.
ES1 = 13
ES2 = 17
ES3 = 21
Now, if you want to stay with "nice" numbers that look more like the current ones (these do still nerf the ability for drain builds):
ES1 = 12
ES2 = 15
ES3 = 18
Here so you can see the numbers and how they scale with my equivalent build:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FoOyl56JvhBVpaCDE0vxCsIhQfwyvthZ-B_cu3P-M3Q/edit?usp=sharing
Why do I use 508 flow caps in Holodeck and 630 drain in Tribble?
Normalizing things given new possibilities. Again, if the current Tribble R&D science drain consoles get changed, my assumptions change a LOT, specially since we're talking balancing a new slope with a new Y intercept.
P.S. By the way, the easy way to "fix" plasmonic leech is to change the base drain number to 3 and keeping the slope at +1 power every 200 drain skill as it stands in Tribble. Anyway, the kiddos running plasmonic leech for DPS usually run with somewhere around 250-350 flow caps so they won't feel a difference. They won't switch from their plasma embassy consoles to the R&D ones because they would loose DPS.
The builds are of course not 1:1 the same. On Tribble I mostly avoided the 3rd and least effective skill, as I also avoid the 7 to 9th skill rank on Holodeck. I think one difference is likely to be that I will have more Drain Expertise on Tribble then I had the equivalent on Holodeck.
All stats at 130 Auxiliary Power Level with the same gear
Gravity Well III:
Destabilized Resonance Beam II
Energy Siphon II
Quantum Phase Torpedo
Quantum Phase Torpedo with Torpedo Spread III
Neutronic Torpedo
---
That are just the stats I could quickly compare. I then took the ship in combat, Japori and Carraya or what's it called.
I didn't have any real issues, except one thing: It seemed to me that my Gravity Well didn't have the same range as it used to be. I know that the Repel values between Holodeck and Tribble seem identical, but IIRC, Graviton Generators affected the distance/range of Gravity Well, and there is no stat that would allow me to see this.
I think this needs further evaluation. I haven't run any hard tests yet where I could test this precisely, unfortunately.
But, the biggest question for me after this little test is:
Is the effect on the range of powers like Gravity Well from Control Expertise different than from Graviton Generators?
Since I am generally lazy, I'd love someone else to make some more detailed test on this, but maybe I'll find the time in the weekend, too. (But maybe not.)
Personally, I'd say buff the base values back up so that the equations will keep them on par with, or maybe slightly lower than, what's on Holodeck now after similar Skill Point investments.
I, like others who are steaming, have invested in at least 1 PartGen-heavy build. I love it. It lets me do damage in a way that makes sense for the my Science character (Deflectors and smarts, not brute force BFAW). If the values on the re-balance are going to hurt abilities to the point of not being worthwhile, there's no point in keeping that character going, which lessens my desire to play, honestly.
EDIT: Removed a line that, in retrospect, was very passive-aggressive in tone. Also, if mustrumridcully0's information holds, science may not be as hurt, but instead just 1 ability (which, being so noticeable, needs to be buffed in base stats).
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
For testing I need server availability.
It's buggy in some instances and last night I was getting a LOT of disconnects. It was much better earlier rtoday.
Please tell us that the requirement for purchasing these points as-you-go is going to change? As it is right now, we have to choose a point, and then purchase it. That is not going to work for a lot of folks.
Even the first point spent will require a retrain token to undo? Not going to be a lot of happy campers out there.
I was able to easily replicate the character, in terms of skills, with quite a few spare skill points to tinker ( something like 12 ). I was generally tougher and output more damage ( particularly in ground ).
Question: I vaguely recall the hull healing skill saying it affected hull regeneration. In terms of replicating my build, does this mean I should put points in both hull healing and hull regen?
Some oddities:
- I found the hull regeneration line not very enticing. With 3 skill points, the in-combat regeneration bonus works out to be something like 150/second on a 88k hull ship (if I read the tool-tip correctly ) Maybe that's just me. I guess it would be hard to balance against active hull healing, which require bridge officer abilities, traits, or gear. This leads to:
- Being interested in passive regeneration ( mostly due to the borg nature of the character ) I tried out the new consoles that replaced crew regeneration with hull regeneration.. I forget the new name. The console ( at green Mk XIV ) says it regenerates 6% of maximum hull per 6 seconds ( and twice that out of combat ). That sounds fantastic ( possibly too fantastic? but it is a science console, so competes directly with major sources of DPS, such as the fleet science consoles ). However, testing showed it bumped up my in combat regen from something like 48% per minute to 48.5% per minute. Not at all what was advertised. So, basically, something is off. Either the console is working as intended but displays the incorrect information, or the console is not working as intended, or, possibly, the in combat status display of my ship was reporting the incorrect numbers.
A suggestion:
- It would be really helpful if the Ship Status window listed in and out of combat regeneration at the same time, rather than have to go off to fight and pop up the Status window mid-fight to see how things are working.
I still have to test science stuff on him. He was meant to pilot a wide range of ship types, but wasn't super specialized at any one thing, so it might provide a good viewpoint there. I'll try to test things out this weekend.
Agreed. Cuttng the effectiveness in half of the Leech alone already comstitutes a major overall nerf; subsidiarily doesn't mesh with "Players lose nothing!"
And yes, we got some new skills, but at least half of those are needed to compensate for the loss (aka, also 'nerf') in other areas, like shield/hull regen.
That is correct, the old hull healing included passive regeneration, the new hull healing does not.
Frankly, they could just skip telling us what the out of combat numbers are, it's only the in combat numbers anyone cares about.
It would also be nice if they could add shield hardness to the stat window, now that we can modify it.
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" - Agatha Heterodyne
I agree. Just checked out my main on tribble, seen that leech was only pulling 1.8 per activation now, with 2 embassy consoles. I was at or near 3.0 per activation on holodeck.
Not going to work for me at all, considering I'm already low on power in the Scimitar as it is.
This point keeps getting brought up... And i REALLY dont understand it at all...
This is EXACTLY how the current system works as well. You choose an option, you confirm, and its set. Explain how this new system is in any way more punitive that the current one?
i dont see how you can 'mess up' in this system without outright refusing to read any of the skills you are actually putting points into.
My exotic damage dealer, V'Lel@dragonsbrethren:
Holodeck:
Partigens: 362.6
Gravigens: 155.4
Flowcaps: 141.6
Tribble
EPG: 363.6
ControlX: 171.4 (+100 from skills vs. +84)
DrainX: 197.6 (+100 from skills vs. +84)
My Sarr Theln drain build, Dysnomia@dragonsbrethren:
Holodeck:
Partigens: 129.6
Gravigens: 84
Flowcaps: 358.2
Tribble
EPG: 45.6 (+0 from skills vs. +84)
ControlX: 219.4 (+100 from skills vs. +54)
DrainX: 359.2
Since we don't have a Science tab in our stats on Tribble, this was done by adding up my consoles, skills, and trait values. It's possible I missed something or screwed up somewhere, but I've double checked the values.
From what I'm seeing here, there's actually not all that much difference between the stats I'm focusing on between Holodeck and Tribble. What were secondary stats for the builds, however, are higher on Tribble.
I hope that helps with tuning these correctly, since while it's now possible to push these focus skills higher, in practice, it's not happening (yet, anyway).
With the position changes, the plus/minus threat bonus was moved so far down the Tac tree that true tanks can not reach it. They are the ones that really need it. Under the old system you could always get threat skills no mater how much you had in tac abilities. Please move the skill back up the tree some.
(Now, there is definitely a problem with Carriers reaching the pet skills, particularly Science Carriers.)
Thanks
So, how about it @borticuscryptic ? Is this even possible in the current engine?
@banatine
It is not the same on holodeck. On holodeck, you can completely fill out the entire tree, and then hit accept. You can not do this on the new system. It is point by point. You choose a point, and you accept it.
I can fill out the entire tree on live, get it set up how I like and then accept it. I do not have to accept points to unlock the next rank. As it is on tribble right now, I can not lay out the entire tree and make changes before accepting. We are losing the ability to do this.
Here's my Real Submission for a New Skill.
It's A SINGLE Unlock only.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Thought is to Combine RANK 1 ONLY of the Energy/Kinetic Proficiency into one Skill.
Rank 2 and 3 would Stay as separate Items That Branch out from Rank One. One Branch for Energy and one for Torpedo
This would serve 2 Purposes, it would provide newer players with a boost to both types, While opening a spot in the Skill Tree for another ability, that will also Help Newer Players.
My Suggested Ability, is a Skill Unlock for the Lieutenant Tactical Section. (That would have stats that Scale with rank, if need be)
This is designed to help players combat the enemies they face in the lower levels, Specifically Klingons, Orions, and Gorn Vessels who very much love their Hold abilities. It would also have a tertiary effect of helping against the Borg, Undine, and some other Higher level Mobs from Delta Rising. IMHO Accuracy is one of those things that newer Players will get the most use of, since they start with such a low Accuracy Stat. Its Not Something that the High End Players are really gonna have all that much use for, so it shouldn't affect Power Creep all that much, which was my intent.
I'm not real good at picking awesome ability names, so I'm totally open to suggestions there! Maybe Something like "All She's got isn't Good Enough!"
It's meant to make the player feel like they are in that moment in every good trek episode, where the Ship is Caught in a Gravity Well, or a Tractor Beam, and they put their minds together to come up with a solution. Then out of no where, fire a Fatal Shot to Destroy the Ship and blast off as the Ship explodes behind them.
Ability Stats:
The only skill in space that I saw that went down dramatically percentagewise was Tac Team I, which the bonuses were cut in half from 18 Starship Energy and Projectile Training to 9 in both categories. I have to do some testing with ground, but at the moment, I'm getting more base damage resist and weapon damage, but slightly less damage resist debuff and healing on skills after my first attempt. HP went up as well, since it's required in order to get the bonuses to armor.
I still have to do testing on my tac Klingon, but it seems right now everything is close enough, with the issue of no base passive ground healing during combat. All in all, not bad for generalized builds. I do like the suggestion in the thread to move the pet bonus choice to earlier in the tac line since the carriers lean toward science anyway. Even moving it to 15, inbetween the projectile and energy choices would help.
In conclusion, it gives me a bit more flexibility if I want to mess around with some more skills for fun. It won't be doom and gloom for most people once the update hits, and games are supposed to be about fun, not just numbers. Good job.
Observations:
The leveling up experience is somewhat slow and tedious. This is from a player who has not leveled an alt since beta aside from his current main, and the alts on Tribble (that have been wiped). The new skill system itself is nice, there are choices to be made which while leveling give the feel of uniqueness, but I can't help but wonder if at the end (level 50+), will most people's characters look the same.
Why should characters look the same? Just like in the original system, there are skills... and there are essential skills. Who is not going to try and pick up levels to optimize their Crit H and Crit D? As the dust settles, players will bear similarities akin to what exist now. Perhaps this is as intended? If so, it runs counter to the statements propagated by our Cryptic friends that they want to promote choice and diversity.
Let us take my main as an example for Space skills. I interpreted my character's skills on Holodeck to the new system on Tribble last weekend, taking into account the elimination of some skills in the new system and trying to match equivalents in the new system. It was a fairly simple exercise, if one simply rigorously applied a consistent set of standards based on the bonus achieved and their equivalent on Holodeck. In the end, I used 38 of my total 46 points in the interpretation of existing skills to the new system. I applaud Cryptic for being spot-on. I do not consider my character as an "Edge" case. The conversion process did yield some extra points to allow for new choices (no Ultimates for me).
From my point of view, I think it is good that players are given real choices: choices that have consequences, where players do not feel there is one better/required choice than the other. As such, the more real choices that exist, and the scarcity of points available to purchase them, the more diverse game play will be. At this moment in time, I feel the 46 point max limit is fairly good. While I feel players are able to get most (but not all) desirable Space skills with this, I also can ruminate the merits of more points at this value as well. Perhaps a +1 Skill point to Federation races (as many players will choice Alien race to get the extra trait). I digress. If the community feels, as players generally are inclined to the direction of power creep, and Cryotic is inclined, I would not advocate more than a couple more skill points allocated even if it is to let people have a greater opportunity to access those Ultimate abilities.
By and large, I am fairly pleased with the balance the revamp displays. Kudos to Cryptic QA for keeping their eye on the ball (translating the status quo while adjusting for a few new things) instead of purposefully nerfing play.
Oh yes, as a Tac Captain, its 17 Eng/14 Sci/ 15 Tactical skill points spent
Exactly , i dont know why this was seen as a good design choice , it limits the players on designing their builds seeing what they can do without completely committing to the skills . its the one big negative thing i see in the new system considering you have to pay for additional respects and getting one free one doesn't make up for this design .
Exactly. Sounds like they want players to start buying these respec tokens :-P
Players are going to make mistakes, even reading the tooltips. Mis-counting points on the way down will be a big problem for some people. Get down to the bottom and be like..damn! I put one to many points in LT COM and now I do not have enough for the skill I wanted in Admiral.
Some additional information to my previous post, since Borticuscryptic mentioned he was interested in actual stats.
Holodeck Stats according to stat page on Earth Orbit:
130 Aux
Projectile WeaponsTraining: 84
Energy Weapons Training: 36
Tribble Stats:
Since I needed to calculate it manually, I include the details of the calculation.
Base from Skill Training + Gear Items = Total
Bonuses come from:
Some more power comparisons:
Hazard Emitters II: 16,581 Hit points over 15 seconds (Tribble) vs 17,238 Hit Points over 15 seconds (Holodeck)
Hazard Emitters II: +30.6 All Damage Resistance (Tribble) vs 31.9 All Damage Resistance (Holodeck)
Science Team I: 2.301 Shield Regeneration Once (Tribble) vs 2.294 Shield Regeneration Once (Holodeck)
Gravity Well Range
I still have the feeling that Gravity Well lacks the range it used to. Normally when I target a typical group in the Romulan episodes, I can pretty much catch all of them in a gravity well. This doesn't seem to happen anymore.
I specced: 20 Eng, 21 Sci and 5 Tac.
So far so good, and what's more, I am not seeing the need to respec to change ships/builds.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
I decided to attempt to provide some data for Plasmonic Leech and how base values would affect that, and here is the graph of my results.
The current Holodeck values are the thick yellow line.
It seems that no matter what you do here, there will be some degree of overperforming or underperforming vs Holodeck depending on how much skill point/console investment is made. The choice you have to make is which way to go with this. A base value of 1.5 would match the mid-range (~180-210 flowcaps), but it would overperform in the low end, and underperform in the high end. There doesn't seem to be an easy solution here to make it equivalent to current values on Holodeck. A base value of 1.67 would match the high end (400 flowcaps), but would buff the low-mid range above Holodeck values.
Also, for the people who are claiming to have lost Critical Chance and Critical Severity: nothing in the old system contributed directly to those base stats, so I'm not sure how you lost those. I did notice however that when I copied my toon over, all the boffs unseated, which was a loss of crit stats due to no SROs being seated. Was this your experience as well? When I re-seated the boffs, my base crit values returned to what they are on Holodeck.
Psst, the high end on holodeck is 500.
The fact that changes to this single item have dominated so much of a discussion supposedly dedicated to discussing far-reaching systemic changes that are having an impact on hundreds - possibly thousands - of other mechanics, is probably a very strong indicator of a need for we developers to consider substantial modifications to the item in question. No single ability, skill, or piece of equipment should ever have this much control over an entire game and its community, nor be the driving force behind the direction of larger balance modifications we might undertake in the name of the game's long-term health.
In the end, it is likely that Plasmonic Leech will have its effectiveness impacted by this Skill Revamp, and nobody will be happy about it - not the players that may have invested so heavily in obtaining it and building around it, nor the developers who will take the heat for a change that clearly needs to happen. The current values you see on Tribble aren't final, but I can pretty much guarantee that it won't end up doing everything that it previously did.
And that's in everybody's best interest. I don't expect the playerbase to see that, nor expect to hear the end of this statement any time soon.
Now... I don't suppose we could get this thread back to discussing the other hundreds of bugs, inaccuracies and unpolished facets of this system, instead of circling this drain (heh) any longer?
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I'd just like to say I agree completely with this.
I remember years ago when the Plasmonic Leech was first introduced, back then ship consoles were still "bound" to their ships and could not use anywhere else, which was fine and it was balanced around that.
Removing that restriction shortly after was pretty much opening pandora's box, and adding it to the lockbox only compounded issues.
I'm kind of glad its effectiveness is being reduced as it makes the MACO shields finally seem like a viable alternative again, and not like one is being penalized for using them over the Leech.