Stories that humanize an enemy always make for fascinating reading.
It's starting to sound an awful lot as if players who are having trouble with those destroyers now will have plenty of practice to look forward to in the next reputation grind...:D
I think they went to far to humanize them...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
It also seems odd that both of Bragg's parents have such a balanced view of the Federation and the history of their dealings with the Na'khul hundreds of years later when every other Na'khul we encounter is angry and firmly indoctrinated into the same kind of rhetoric Vosk is blamed for promoting. The father's views are clearly not shared by the majority, but we don't get much sense that he's unusually well-informed and tolerant for a Na'khul.
I figure its just like things here. Not everyone believes in an ideology. Operation Valkyrie back in WW2 is a prime example. A plot to kill Hitler... by German Officers. They knew that Hitler was bad news for their country and tried to end it to save Germany. If the plot had succeeded, we may not have had to go inter Berlin at all, let alone end up with the standoff between the Allies and the Soviets and the construction of the Berlin Wall.
Anyways... we know how Vosk's plan works out in the end. Owned by a 22nd Century NX class starship.
Unfortunately, the characters in this little drama don't seem entirely believable to me. But aside from the formatting problems, it's not such a bad scene and again I recognize the limitations of the blog medium. There's only so much space and they have to keep things tight. I get that the blog writer needed a mouthpiece for the future history lesson they intended to drop.
Hopefully future episodes and blogs will help to justify the more sympathetic treatment of the Na'khul here. But sometimes you just need to let the "bad guys" be the bad guys in the literary sense and spend less time trying to make the reader/player empathize with them, especially when they try so hard to be unlikable. Yeah we know that their planet was destroyed and that they blame the Federation for it and that their anger isn't so much unjustified as it is somewhat misguided. We don't need to have that hammered in over and over. We just spent two episodes having that point driven home, and we're likely to rehash both the Sphere Builder and Stormfront storylines again before it's all over. If we never encounter another Na'khul like Bragg's father who recognizes that things aren't as simple as "destroy the Federation, restore the homeworld", the scene is wasted.
I'd like to see a narrative that explains why the Krenim and the Na'khul were fighting each other in "Time and Tide". On the surface they each have similar goals, after all. I don't buy the confusion of battle theory. What I expect to see is that their goals are mutually exclusive and that the Na'khul are indeed a third front in the Temporal war in opposition to both the Temporal Accords and to the Sphere Builders. "Stormfront" followed hard on the heels of the end of the Xindi/Sphere Builders arc and it might be reasonable to assume that the Na'khul couldn't have done what they did if the Sphere Builders had succeeded. Given what the Builders intended to do to the Expanse and that the Na'khul are likely aware of that and the fact that their homeworld isn't that far off, mutually exclusive goals are a near certainty.
It also seems odd that both of Bragg's parents have such a balanced view of the Federation and the history of their dealings with the Na'khul hundreds of years later when every other Na'khul we encounter is angry and firmly indoctrinated into the same kind of rhetoric Vosk is blamed for promoting. The father's views are clearly not shared by the majority, but we don't get much sense that he's unusually well-informed and tolerant for a Na'khul.
I figure its just like things here. Not everyone believes in an ideology. Operation Valkyrie back in WW2 is a prime example. A plot to kill Hitler... by German Officers. They knew that Hitler was bad news for their country and tried to end it to save Germany. If the plot had succeeded, we may not have had to go inter Berlin at all, let alone end up with the standoff between the Allies and the Soviets and the construction of the Berlin Wall.
Anyways... we know how Vosk's plan works out in the end. Owned by a 22nd Century NX class starship.
Unfortunately, the characters in this little drama don't seem entirely believable to me. But aside from the formatting problems, it's not such a bad scene and again I recognize the limitations of the blog medium. There's only so much space and they have to keep things tight. I get that the blog writer needed a mouthpiece for the future history lesson they intended to drop.
Hopefully future episodes and blogs will help to justify the more sympathetic treatment of the Na'khul here. But sometimes you just need to let the "bad guys" be the bad guys in the literary sense and spend less time trying to make the reader/player empathize with them, especially when they try so hard to be unlikable. Yeah we know that their planet was destroyed and that they blame the Federation for it and that their anger isn't so much unjustified as it is somewhat misguided. We don't need to have that hammered in over and over. We just spent two episodes having that point driven home, and we're likely to rehash both the Sphere Builder and Stormfront storylines again before it's all over. If we never encounter another Na'khul like Bragg's father who recognizes that things aren't as simple as "destroy the Federation, restore the homeworld", the scene is wasted.
I'd like to see a narrative that explains why the Krenim and the Na'khul were fighting each other in "Time and Tide". On the surface they each have similar goals, after all. I don't buy the confusion of battle theory. What I expect to see is that their goals are mutually exclusive and that the Na'khul are indeed a third front in the Temporal war in opposition to both the Temporal Accords and to the Sphere Builders. "Stormfront" followed hard on the heels of the end of the Xindi/Sphere Builders arc and it might be reasonable to assume that the Na'khul couldn't have done what they did if the Sphere Builders had succeeded. Given what the Builders intended to do to the Expanse and that the Na'khul are likely aware of that and the fact that their homeworld isn't that far off, mutually exclusive goals are a near certainty.
the Na'kuhl seem to suffer from racial arrogance. As Daniels put it, they think they're the master race and everyone else is beneath them. But.. they're not all deluded enough to go as far as Vosk.
I think what might be being missed here in the discussion is that there is no real 'bad' and 'good' guys in a war only opposing goals/viewpoints. Both sides in any such conflict will have both done things that can be considered 'good' and heroic and 'bad' and reprehensible; all in the name of winning the conflict.
Having said that, knowing that the guy on the other side of the lines has that kind of courage and determination makes him someone to fear. Knowing that Braag has a family that loves him, and he them and was raised in love and kindness but left that all behind to come kill you means that on the battlefield, he's going to be able to call on all kinds of reserves to keep fighting.
The Na'khul should be a great foe to battle in the future with this story in mind.
The thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is, why the Na'kuhl would appose a temporal prime directive, something those temporal accords were sorta about.
If successful, wouldn't it have stopped Kal Dano, who would be bound to abide by them, and stop him from traveling back in time with the taux utat, preventing the Tholians from getting the bloody thing in the first place?
Also, why wouldn't Captain Walker and the Pastak try to stop Kal ? I know Kal is from a point later in the timeline, perhaps from a point where the Federation doesn't exist, (was Kal even a part of the Federation?) but wouldn't they at least try to reason with him, knowing what they know?
It just seems to me that by sitting back and doing nothing, the federation may have helped create the time traveling, vengeful Na'kuhl situation in the first place. Maybe that's where the Na'kuhl are coming from when they blame the Federation no?
I'm getting a Janeway sized headache
You know that time travel Doff assignment from the Temporal Lock Box, where you send your people to prevent another time traveler from killing a conveniently unnamed dictator in the past? This is kind of like that. The point of the Temporal Accord and the Temporal Prime Directive is to preserve a timeline where the Federation came out on top. In that timeline, the Tholians devastated the Na'kuhl. There's no telling how saving the Na'kuhl homeworld would have jeopardized the prosperity of the Federation and its member worlds and species. This is a quite literal case of history being written by the winners.
Its sad, but its also scary. Fanatics never end well. The only way this can end is us going in to stop the NaKuhl in the 20th century, maybe helping Archer or something.
They should just be outright exterminated from time. Along with that insane Krenim. Here's hoping we erase him as well. He doesn't deserve to live either.
Out of everything, this made them feel a little bit more realistic even though they are space aliens, which need to kill everyone including the Federation.
The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
General Vosk addressed the assembled Na’kuhl. "You represent the best of our most elite forces, for a mission that could mean the salvation of our people!"
The situation with the Na'kuhl reminds me of the situation that the Germans were in post-WWI. In the attempt to prevent them from waging war on the rest of Europe, the League of Nations went too far, crippling the country, which in turn made the effects of the world-wide depression worse.
This led a lot of people to either join or sympathize with nationalist political groups, like the TRIBBLE.
"he is a grown Na'kuhl" is analogous to, say, "he is a grown Canadian", which is silly. Why Star Trek always carelessly conflates nationality with race despite equal efforts to the contrary is a genuine mystery. And how anybody could think humans control the Federation when the president is a lizard on two legs.... How the so-called "Romulan" Republic or "Klingon" Empire or "Cardassian" Union or "Na'kuhl" whatever, aren't denounced as the actual racists, I have no idea.
You don't understand this because...you don't understand that Na'kuhl is equal to Human. Or Romulan. Or Klingon. We are the top sentient beings on the planet that we sprang from, not racists, not in the sense you're trying to take the various races into some kind of race hater war.
Do you think humans are racists because they call themselves humans? And so they don't call Romulans "Humans". No. They call them Romulans.
I agree that the extinguishment of the Na'kuhl star was a tragedy, and since we don't know the history that leads up to Vosk's travel back to WWII, I'm okay...-ish, if they blame the Federation in the far future for it's treatment of the refugees.
But:
The Na'kuhl in the present slapping a helping hand doesn't sit well with me. For stars' sake, Kal Dano made that device in the future to save his world, and he already paid the price! Plus, it was the Tholians who were messing with it.
Can't we just drill through their thick skull, get them to see that we know what a terrible blow it was, and move forward together? The Republic found a new homeworld, I'm sure we could spare a few scouts / survey ships to help the Na'kuhl.
We are all supposed to be exploring anyway ^^
The problem that Historians have with Hitler is that they do not look at any one human from a Spiritual stance. All of our mainstream operates under the assumption that man is an animal, like any other animal, but an animal who is a Sentient Animal nonetheless.
Once you take the Spiritual aspect into consideration, the driving force behind Hitler and others of his ilk becomes crystal clear. I realize most Trek fans do not believe in spiritual matters and so I will not push my opinion on that subject here. I can only say one thing: there is more to life that Life and Death. Believe it or not, there are powers at work for humanity and against humanity that can never be seen, measured, or weighed.
However, do not consider Evil to be the Opposite of Good. Good has No Equal. Evil will lose, ultimately. The end has already been written.
The point of the Temporal Accord and the Temporal Prime Directive is to preserve a timeline where the Federation came out on top. In that timeline, the Tholians devastated the Na'kuhl. There's no telling how saving the Na'kuhl homeworld would have jeopardized the prosperity of the Federation and its member worlds and species. This is a quite literal case of history being written by the winners.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Remember we have countless parallel timelines in existence within the Trek universe (The Mirror Universe, The J.J. Universe*, all the universes in Parallels... I would argue that Lorien's universe in Enterprise and the micro universe from DS9's "Children of Time" would count among them too, because the prime characters recall events & characters from those episodes).
Note that the first time we encounter Walker, he tells us that the timeline created by our misadventure in the Azure sector is an errant one that should never have existed. He does not say that all other timelines shouldn't exist.
Reading between the lines, I think what is actually happening is that certain actions by time travellers can create unstable timelines that can damage both existing timelines and the fabric of time and space itself... and while naturally occurring or stable generated ones can continue to co-exist with the prime universe, it is the job of the Federation temporal agents and fleet personnel, to detect volatile and dangerous ones from the ripples they cause in the timeline... and repair their damage or prevent them from happening.
One can surmise this simply because other universes *do* exist. If their existence was a threat to the prime universe, it would make sense to assume that a timeship would have stopped the Narada and Spock getting sucked into the singularity created by red matter. It would have stopped Enterprise going off course in the subspace corridor (and so on and so forth).
*Note: You don't have to like that universe to appreciate the concept behind my statement.
The literary lines drawn to the TRIBBLE Movement is not very subtle. Nor am I happy that the Na'kuhl are depicted in such fanatical light makes them more one dimensional than they really should be. I would like to know more about why they see these strings and what, culturally, drives them to take such dim views of all other races.
Well, think of it.... How did Vosk rise to power in the Na'kuhl? We know from the TV show that he did, the question is how? Apparently, many of the other Na'kuhl agreed with his plans. Leaders may be exceptional people, but they always represent their people in some way.
Going by the mirror image we have going, I'd wager it started like this:
Na'kuhl lose their homeworld, reduced to colonies and becoming a migrant society in part
Those colonies grow poorer due to stretched resources and external factors such as Ferengi, raiders and so on
Due to the stubborn Na'khul governance, all aid is refused as the politcal elite expect to lose their hold on power should they let aid come in, thus anti-federation paranoia begins as a way to make the polpulace suffer gladly rather than pay the 'cost' of kotowing to the enemy as they are percieved (maybe also aided by furture Na'khul going back in time to reveal what truely happened, ie the root cause was the federation creating the Tox uhat, somewhat absolving the tholians)
As with all things, weaker colonies and such are absorbed by more powerful sources, in part as the governance realises they need the assistance/are coerced/duped into it - This further feeds the paranioa. which by now is fermenting into the beginnings of a true xenophobia but due to societal norms, are not yet expressed as a mass
All it needs now is the right person to fan the flames and blame every problem they have on a sole cause to ignite the powder keg - Like humans, the need to blame -something- for their current state rather than themselves or the authorities is too tempting to ignore, thus this one person creating the initial groundswell of 'punish them for our lot in life' will prove the driving force as an entire races hate is concentrated into a single beam directed at one target, rather than dispersed amongst many - this fervor in kind allowing the creator of the current situation carte blanche to do as they will as all are focussing their might to this one act of retribution
...in fact, it quite surprises me that the Na'khul parents can freely talk against the establishment as one would have expected them to have been 'purged' for their moderate viewpoint
Its sad, but its also scary. Fanatics never end well. The only way this can end is us going in to stop the NaKuhl in the 20th century, maybe helping Archer or something.
That'd be pretty awesome.... maybe we end up affecting the events without Archer and company not knowing we were there, such as deactivating some kind of ECM which would have stopped the Enterprises weapons from hitting or we covertly wreck the timegate before the timegate is defacto destroyed (hence why it was taking longer than expected to initiallise)
or failing that... wiping out the remains of the Naz'khul weapons, ensuring they never exist even as blueprints jotted on a napkin
It's interesting to see how outsiders view the dealings of the Federation with the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Republic in the future. You have to stop and wonder how much of that "Federation kings" is propaganda and how much is a measure of truth in that future timeline.
It is a rather interesting thing to consider, especially given we know how the Temporal Accords are selected with one very particular ultimate goal, to fix a timeline where the Federation absorbs every post-warp society in the galaxy, to become the Galactic Union. Although their description here doesn't quite match up, the Romulans especially seem very happy to go along with the Federation's plans in-game, so the propaganda may not be the ultiamte truth for these particular parties, but perhaps for the rest of the future Federation, beyond the Romulans and Klingons, who are pretty much just as guilty as the earlier Federation of the 25th century.
It's the Federations fault the Tholians used the tox uthat? By that reasoning, it's actually the Romulans fault. If they hadn't gone to war with Earth there would be no Federation. But wait, if the Romulans hadn't split with the Vulcans, there wouldn't be a Romulan empire. so it's the Vulcans fault. No, wait. the Vulcans split because of Surak. why don't they go back and kill Surak? was Surak just a puppet?
Iconians!!!!
It's nonsense. this is lazy writing. they're doing what jar jar abrams did to the star trek reboot film. idiotic reasoning to make the plot go where they want it to. basically what they're saying is if a guy breaks into your house and shoots your family, you don't get angry at him, you get angry at the guy in the gunshop who sold him the weapon.!!
that's TRIBBLE. It's ludicrous. It's plot driven stupidity, and laziness. If you just want the Na'kuhl to be bad just say they're overcome with grief at losing their homeworld and lashing out at anyone. the Fed's just happen to be the closest.
The question I want answered is WHY did the Tholians extinguish a star? for fun? to start this temporal war? ignore the idiot terrorists, focus on the real threat.
"he is a grown Na'kuhl" is analogous to, say, "he is a grown Canadian", which is silly. Why Star Trek always carelessly conflates nationality with race despite equal efforts to the contrary is a genuine mystery. And how anybody could think humans control the Federation when the president is a lizard on two legs.... How the so-called "Romulan" Republic or "Klingon" Empire or "Cardassian" Union or "Na'kuhl" whatever, aren't denounced as the actual racists, I have no idea.
Unless Na'khul is equivalent to human i.e. their species instead of their nation. Just as with the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians. Vulcans on the other hand refer to their government as the Confederacy of Surak, but as a demonym they're still Vulcan. In Star Trek humans seem to be the outliers naming our planetary nation after our planet instead of our species with United Earth. This is even contrasted against our mirror counterparts the Terran Empire. I suppose humans having so much conflict on our planet don't feel the need to associate our civilization with our species.
From the Doylist storytelling perspective I imagine it's simply not to overwhelm viewers and readers with having to remember a demonym AND a species for every new civilization introduced.
I think species like the Klingons and the Romulans aren't angry so much that they don't deny their own racist practices, but rather they feel the Federation is a bunch of hypocrites preaching species equality while they feel it's just a human empire. They're too untrusting to realize that the Federation is on the level. Also they equate species dominance with military might, and the military leading edge of Federation is the Earth borne Starfleet.
"he is a grown Na'kuhl" is analogous to, say, "he is a grown Canadian", which is silly. Why Star Trek always carelessly conflates nationality with race despite equal efforts to the contrary is a genuine mystery. And how anybody could think humans control the Federation when the president is a lizard on two legs.... How the so-called "Romulan" Republic or "Klingon" Empire or "Cardassian" Union or "Na'kuhl" whatever, aren't denounced as the actual racists, I have no idea.
Star Trek takes "planet of hats" to extremes. One of the worst is actually the humans, always shown as optimistic, forward-thinking, accepting, multifaceted geniuses with a perfect society, no military, and devoted to learning.
It's part of what has always made me call Trek science fantasy, rather than science fiction.
It's not that bad, and Star Trek generally goes about disrupting that given enough time. Back in the original series you had Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones. In TNG we saw several failed instances such as Tasha Yar's warzone of a homeworld.
The fact of the matter is that by necessity Star Trek is a show that centers around the military/NASA of a sprawling interstellar civilization that primarily encounters the military/NASA of other interstellar civilizations. It would be like learning about America from watching MASH, JAG, Top Gun, Tora Tora Tora, The Hunt for Red October, and History Channel documentaries on World War II. Star Trek was never about giving a complete picture, it was focused on the struggles of the crews of the shows.
Stories that humanize an enemy always make for fascinating reading.
The Na'huhl at the center of the story here is one of the guys that goes back in time to empower Hitler's regime. He's beyond redemption.
Redemption is an interesting phrase. Frankly his association with National Socialists is the least of the concerns with this guy. Be honest, do you actually think he gives two pieces of monkey TRIBBLE about Hitler's infantile dreams of world domination? The Third Reich had the resources, the will, and the absolute lack of morals that he needed to manipulate humans into building a weapon that would annihilate their own future. He needed someone stupid. Hitler and friends were perfect.
The thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is, why the Na'kuhl would appose a temporal prime directive, something those temporal accords were sorta about.
If successful, wouldn't it have stopped Kal Dano, who would be bound to abide by them, and stop him from traveling back in time with the taux utat, preventing the Tholians from getting the bloody thing in the first place?
Also, why wouldn't Captain Walker and the Pastak try to stop Kal ? I know Kal is from a point later in the timeline, perhaps from a point where the Federation doesn't exist, (was Kal even a part of the Federation?) but wouldn't they at least try to reason with him, knowing what they know?
It just seems to me that by sitting back and doing nothing, the federation may have helped create the time traveling, vengeful Na'kuhl situation in the first place. Maybe that's where the Na'kuhl are coming from when they blame the Federation no?
I'm getting a Janeway sized headache
The issue with this is that Kal Dano's initial mission was well within the bounds of the Temporal Prime Directive as the destruction the Lukari star is an alteration to the timeline. Him getting the Tox Uthat stolen was his TRIBBLE up.
There are a bunch of formatting problems with the text of that blog making it harder to read the dialogue naturally.
It's interesting to see how outsiders view the dealings of the Federation with the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Republic in the future. You have to stop and wonder how much of that "Federation kings" is propaganda and how much is a measure of truth in that future timeline.
It's also a rather chilling portrayal of an embittered young man falling under the influence of a megalomaniac terrorist, given parallels to current events. Which would have been far more effective if Bragg didn't read so much like a child and the sudden placid acceptance of his father.
"Sure, son, go off on a suicide mission for a madman with my blessing. We'll miss you, son. Here, have a nice big slice of verdrat."
I realize that the blog format doesn't give much room for niceties like characterization and subtlety. I like how you tried to frame the scene in the young man's family life. The dialogue just feels a bit too simplistic and pat for the subject matter. The father's acceptance didn't need to be quite so unconditional and I can't imagine that he would not try a gentle approach to convince his son to change his mind given his obvious opposition to Vosk's ideology.
It also seems odd that both of Bragg's parents have such a balanced view of the Federation and the history of their dealings with the Na'khul hundreds of years later when every other Na'khul we encounter is angry and firmly indoctrinated into the same kind of rhetoric Vosk is blamed for promoting. The father's views are clearly not shared by the majority, but we don't get much sense that he's unusually well-informed and tolerant for a Na'khul.
I think that the parallel to the Hitler Youth movement actually explains that nicely. There were German kids who drew weapons on their parents when they opposed their association with the N@zi party. It was serious. It's either abide it, or simply lose the child completely. They had come to the conclusion that they couldn't change his mind, so they decided to just go along and have one last moment of peace and love before they said goodbye to their son forever.
The literary lines drawn to the TRIBBLE Movement is not very subtle. Nor am I happy that the Na'kuhl are depicted in such fanatical light makes them more one dimensional than they really should be. I would like to know more about why they see these strings and what, culturally, drives them to take such dim views of all other races.
Here's the thing, this particular story isn't the place for such navel gazing. Some people really are as bad as their press and reputations suggestion.
In this case, Vosk and his sycophants are the literal 30th century equivalent to the National Socialist German Na'Khul Workers' Party, they have used propaganda and misinformation to stir up a frenzy of hatred and distrust for any who are not Na'khul to further their ends of...stuff. They cannot in any meaningful or morally acceptable way be redeemed or explained. They are as they appear, evil, racist extremists who will kill anyone they deem to be unacceptable in their world view.
Insofar as the "planet of hats" approach to story telling goes regarding the alien races in Star Trek; each "race" on Star Trek is less an actual people with their own history and culture and more a device or analogue to something more contemporary. In TOS for example, the Klingons weren't a "Proud, Honor bound Warriors with a strong religion focusing on the worship of the demigod Kah'less.", they were a stand in for the Soviet Union. That's why most aliens in Star Trek are presented as a monoculture. It's taken 50 years of story telling and revision to move the Klingons from Space Soviets to Proud Warrior Guy's with a Rich Culture. You can't expect a "throw away" one off group from a single episode, who were presented as Space TRIBBLE in that episode, to appear as any other than Space TRIBBLE in a story that takes place that day before they left to go be in the one episode where they appeared.
You said all that and did not make the connection of the Na'Khul to Middle Eastern Terrorist ISIL/ISUL who are chopping the heads off of Christians every chance they get. Just like Hitler's quest to kill all Jews.
Monsters always eat their own first. They happily decapitate anyone who doesn't agree with their "ideology" Muslim, Christian, and Jew. That pilot that they incinerated was a Jordanian and he was a Muslim. I'm curious how many Na'khul that didn't agree with him Vosk has killed; or is his hatred purely xenophobic?
I agree that the extinguishment of the Na'kuhl star was a tragedy, and since we don't know the history that leads up to Vosk's travel back to WWII, I'm okay...-ish, if they blame the Federation in the far future for it's treatment of the refugees.
But:
The Na'kuhl in the present slapping a helping hand doesn't sit well with me. For stars' sake, Kal Dano made that device in the future to save his world, and he already paid the price! Plus, it was the Tholians who were messing with it.
Can't we just drill through their thick skull, get them to see that we know what a terrible blow it was, and move forward together? The Republic found a new homeworld, I'm sure we could spare a few scouts / survey ships to help the Na'kuhl.
We are all supposed to be exploring anyway ^^
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
The problem with the Na'khul position is that not only are they untrusting, they also don't care to investigate the people around them. Every time they said no to Federation assistance they basically threw up a Prime Directive sized wall that said don't help the Na'khul. So when they say get out of our system and leave us alone, that's what we have to do. Non-interference. The father seems to understand this which is comforting. I can't help but feel bad for the Na'khul who were not so prideful and xenophobic.
And the Na'khul are most definitely NOT explorers.
It also seems odd that both of Bragg's parents have such a balanced view of the Federation and the history of their dealings with the Na'khul hundreds of years later when every other Na'khul we encounter is angry and firmly indoctrinated into the same kind of rhetoric Vosk is blamed for promoting. The father's views are clearly not shared by the majority, but we don't get much sense that he's unusually well-informed and tolerant for a Na'khul.
I figure its just like things here. Not everyone believes in an ideology. Operation Valkyrie back in WW2 is a prime example. A plot to kill Hitler... by German Officers. They knew that Hitler was bad news for their country and tried to end it to save Germany. If the plot had succeeded, we may not have had to go inter Berlin at all, let alone end up with the standoff between the Allies and the Soviets and the construction of the Berlin Wall.
Anyways... we know how Vosk's plan works out in the end. Owned by a 22nd Century NX class starship.
Unfortunately, the characters in this little drama don't seem entirely believable to me. But aside from the formatting problems, it's not such a bad scene and again I recognize the limitations of the blog medium. There's only so much space and they have to keep things tight. I get that the blog writer needed a mouthpiece for the future history lesson they intended to drop.
Hopefully future episodes and blogs will help to justify the more sympathetic treatment of the Na'khul here. But sometimes you just need to let the "bad guys" be the bad guys in the literary sense and spend less time trying to make the reader/player empathize with them, especially when they try so hard to be unlikable. Yeah we know that their planet was destroyed and that they blame the Federation for it and that their anger isn't so much unjustified as it is somewhat misguided. We don't need to have that hammered in over and over. We just spent two episodes having that point driven home, and we're likely to rehash both the Sphere Builder and Stormfront storylines again before it's all over. If we never encounter another Na'khul like Bragg's father who recognizes that things aren't as simple as "destroy the Federation, restore the homeworld", the scene is wasted.
I'd like to see a narrative that explains why the Krenim and the Na'khul were fighting each other in "Time and Tide". On the surface they each have similar goals, after all. I don't buy the confusion of battle theory. What I expect to see is that their goals are mutually exclusive and that the Na'khul are indeed a third front in the Temporal war in opposition to both the Temporal Accords and to the Sphere Builders. "Stormfront" followed hard on the heels of the end of the Xindi/Sphere Builders arc and it might be reasonable to assume that the Na'khul couldn't have done what they did if the Sphere Builders had succeeded. Given what the Builders intended to do to the Expanse and that the Na'khul are likely aware of that and the fact that their homeworld isn't that far off, mutually exclusive goals are a near certainty.
It goes to avoiding a planet of hats type of situation. In a civilization of billions or even millions you're going to reach a point where there are independent thinkers unless it's the Borg, or the Romulan Empire and Cardassian Union where independent thought required hazard pay. I have an Israeli friend who makes it a point never to judge a people by their government and that's a good rule of thumb to me.
On the latter agreed. I think that the Na'khul and the Krenim understand something about their goals that we don't yet. Your theory seems right on the nose, the Sphere Builder's goals are basically exclusionary to every other civilization in the galaxy.
Never had any sympathy for these guys, and I'm not gonna start now. Maybe if they had decided to go to the late 90s and help Khan stabilize his rule without major bloodshed I might feel a little different, but no, they made the worst possible choice out of group of bad choices.
Like I said, Khan couldn't be manipulated and would've probably run roughshod over them.
I think what might be being missed here in the discussion is that there is no real 'bad' and 'good' guys in a war only opposing goals/viewpoints. Both sides in any such conflict will have both done things that can be considered 'good' and heroic and 'bad' and reprehensible; all in the name of winning the conflict.
Having said that, knowing that the guy on the other side of the lines has that kind of courage and determination makes him someone to fear. Knowing that Braag has a family that loves him, and he them and was raised in love and kindness but left that all behind to come kill you means that on the battlefield, he's going to be able to call on all kinds of reserves to keep fighting.
The Na'khul should be a great foe to battle in the future with this story in mind.
Excellent point. The code of the soldier. It's just like Tran in Cold Comfort.
The thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is, why the Na'kuhl would appose a temporal prime directive, something those temporal accords were sorta about.
If successful, wouldn't it have stopped Kal Dano, who would be bound to abide by them, and stop him from traveling back in time with the taux utat, preventing the Tholians from getting the bloody thing in the first place?
Also, why wouldn't Captain Walker and the Pastak try to stop Kal ? I know Kal is from a point later in the timeline, perhaps from a point where the Federation doesn't exist, (was Kal even a part of the Federation?) but wouldn't they at least try to reason with him, knowing what they know?
It just seems to me that by sitting back and doing nothing, the federation may have helped create the time traveling, vengeful Na'kuhl situation in the first place. Maybe that's where the Na'kuhl are coming from when they blame the Federation no?
I'm getting a Janeway sized headache
You know that time travel Doff assignment from the Temporal Lock Box, where you send your people to prevent another time traveler from killing a conveniently unnamed dictator in the past? This is kind of like that. The point of the Temporal Accord and the Temporal Prime Directive is to preserve a timeline where the Federation came out on top. In that timeline, the Tholians devastated the Na'kuhl. There's no telling how saving the Na'kuhl homeworld would have jeopardized the prosperity of the Federation and its member worlds and species. This is a quite literal case of history being written by the winners.
Again though, according to Captain Walker, in timelines where that doesn't happen apparently there is no history to win, he hinted at something catastrophic, along the lines of time itself coming apart. I think that was also implied when Archer ended the war as well, as history itself had a snap back and a physical reset as well.
They should just be outright exterminated from time. Along with that insane Krenim. Here's hoping we erase him as well. He doesn't deserve to live either.
The literary lines drawn to the TRIBBLE Movement is not very subtle. Nor am I happy that the Na'kuhl are depicted in such fanatical light makes them more one dimensional than they really should be. I would like to know more about why they see these strings and what, culturally, drives them to take such dim views of all other races.
Well, think of it.... How did Vosk rise to power in the Na'kuhl? We know from the TV show that he did, the question is how? Apparently, many of the other Na'kuhl agreed with his plans. Leaders may be exceptional people, but they always represent their people in some way.
Going by the mirror image we have going, I'd wager it started like this:
Na'kuhl lose their homeworld, reduced to colonies and becoming a migrant society in part
Those colonies grow poorer due to stretched resources and external factors such as Ferengi, raiders and so on
Due to the stubborn Na'khul governance, all aid is refused as the politcal elite expect to lose their hold on power should they let aid come in, thus anti-federation paranoia begins as a way to make the polpulace suffer gladly rather than pay the 'cost' of kotowing to the enemy as they are percieved (maybe also aided by furture Na'khul going back in time to reveal what truely happened, ie the root cause was the federation creating the Tox uhat, somewhat absolving the tholians)
As with all things, weaker colonies and such are absorbed by more powerful sources, in part as the governance realises they need the assistance/are coerced/duped into it - This further feeds the paranioa. which by now is fermenting into the beginnings of a true xenophobia but due to societal norms, are not yet expressed as a mass
All it needs now is the right person to fan the flames and blame every problem they have on a sole cause to ignite the powder keg - Like humans, the need to blame -something- for their current state rather than themselves or the authorities is too tempting to ignore, thus this one person creating the initial groundswell of 'punish them for our lot in life' will prove the driving force as an entire races hate is concentrated into a single beam directed at one target, rather than dispersed amongst many - this fervor in kind allowing the creator of the current situation carte blanche to do as they will as all are focussing their might to this one act of retribution
...in fact, it quite surprises me that the Na'khul parents can freely talk against the establishment as one would have expected them to have been 'purged' for their moderate viewpoint
It's the Federations fault the Tholians used the tox uthat?
By that reasoning, it's actually the Romulans fault. If they hadn't gone to war with Earth there would be no Federation.
But wait, if the Romulans hadn't split with the Vulcans, there wouldn't be a Romulan empire. so it's the Vulcans fault.
No, wait. the Vulcans split because of Surak. why don't they go back and kill Surak? was Surak just a puppet?
Iconians!!!!
It's nonsense. this is lazy writing. they're doing what jar jar abrams did to the star trek reboot film. idiotic reasoning to make the plot go where they want it to. basically what they're saying is if a guy breaks into your house and shoots your family, you don't get angry at him, you get angry at the guy in the gunshop who sold him the weapon.!!
that's TRIBBLE. It's ludicrous. It's plot driven stupidity, and laziness. If you just want the Na'kuhl to be bad just say they're overcome with grief at losing their homeworld and lashing out at anyone. the Fed's just happen to be the closest.
The question I want answered is WHY did the Tholians extinguish a star? for fun? to start this temporal war? ignore the idiot terrorists, focus on the real threat.
What the? How is it lazy writing when the father is sitting their pointing out the lunacy of the argument to his brainwashed son? This is the type of stupidity that actually is used in propaganda, and sadly, pitifully it IS effective.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The question I want answered is WHY did the Tholians extinguish a star? for fun? to start this temporal war? ignore the idiot terrorists, focus on the real threat.
Here's my guess. The Tholians stated that if they didn't feel the Temporal Accords were being enforced strongly enough, that they would take steps. The Tholians want a total ban on time travel period. Considering Stormfront and what we know the Na'khul are going to do, and how Braxton was arrested for crimes he was going to commit, it stands to reason that the Tholians were making a preemptive strike against the Na'khul for something that the Na'khul were going to do if they kept their homeworld and I would imagine resources as a complete nation.
Considering that Walker basically CanEx'ed any idea to work on the Na'khul star and his later remarks about the damage a Temporal War would cause, I think the Na'khul are more dangerous than their tragedy shows them to be. Considering their isolationist stance I wonder if the Na'khul we see in the future isn't that far from their thinking before their star was destroyed. Daniels said they were rather Master race flavored to begin with, so there may be some truth there.
As to why the Union would allow the Tholians to take such an action, it could be an intersection of Temporal Prime Directive and Prime Directive or an understanding that it's a Temporal Paradox required to preserve the existence of time period.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
So what your REALLY trying to say cryptic, is they are our enemy and want to wipe us from existence, BUT they have feelings to? O.o
Or is it they are our enemy BUT, they are just misunderstood O.O
Or was it they are our enemy but not really since stuff and all @_@
Maybe the message is the Neckgould hate us want to kill us wipe us from existence blow us to smithereens and do overall nasty stuff to us, BUT we should pause a second while we fight for our lives and give a thought about their families?
I got a special place for the head of Neckgoulds and Noye over my ships fireplace.
(dont ask how my ship has a fireplace, some things should not be asked...EVER!!)
I find myself having little sympathy for fanatics.
Yeah, you can't help but just sympathize with them, regardless of their actions. But as always, "history" must play out and they must do their "part" which is a total pain btw.
"Our history, our past, our present and our future is now forever changed. All we can do is preserve what is left and continue onwards. This is not a surrender nor defeat, we will continue the fight. This is our last hope, our last chance... for victory."
Vlasek D. Lasor - 4.19.3580 Star Trek Online: Foundry Storyline Series
I've been writing and re-writing condensed versions of things I've written before for the last hour.
The SpacePewPew>GroundPewPew>Alienspecies>MorePewPew thing has gotten stale.
We beat the iconians... in a very trek way, and that was cool. But I don't wanna start a battle across time. I don't wanna fight another generic alien race that randomly comes to power, shows up outta the blew, and then blows up earth. I wanna get back to exploring.
and no, I don't mean I wanna get exploration clusters or some other cheap gimmick back.
I want Bridges. And so does everyone else. Just look at the Galaxy/Intrepid/etc Viral videos people did in UE4 or even the fangame RPG-x.
...As an avid sector space HATER, I frequently point out that getting to your destination is incredibly boring, and highly redundant as you have to beam off spacedock, to Sol, to sector space.
quite franky, we don't require this secondary world map. Stick me on my ship's bridge, let me instruct my conn officer to take us to Nimbus III (via conversation dialog, new UI, I don't care), and then let me wander my ship while it either happens instantly or takes us some random amount of actual time (like a countdown timer) to fly there (basically sector space, but not).
Your "NEW DAWN" should really be letting us get to know our crew. As I can select my "Chief Medical Officer", let me go down to sick bay (yes im suggesting you give each ship a medbay) and find my CMO being stressed out over a case of talaxian mudvipers not breeding correctly.
Let me make my "Jeremy Neelix Guinan" boff the Bartender so I can wander to my TenForward and tell him my problems. Let me get to know my crew, with other players. Let me experience what it's actually like to be a ship captain and not just a spec-ops terminator, solving questions with pewpew or by doing cheesy puzzles to solve disputes.
Give me real story. Human story. Story with emotion or passion.
Quit introducing new bland characters that we never really get to know (Yes Quinn, Shon, I'm talking to you) and make use of the ones you have.
Take Shon... he's Ent-F Captain, he's shown up a few times, and he's kinda acted like a moron and/or been totally useless. Shon has no respect from me, and players can't meet his crew on Utopia Planetia anymore.. Moreover, since ThomasTheCat spearheaded this "all faction npcs look alike" thing, Most players wouldn't even know that the enterprise F crew hangs about in ESD's Club!
...but send us on a diplomatic mission aboard the Enterprise F (here's how you create your first and generic new season interior). Let us explore the inner workings of the Odyssey as we help out Shon (and for god sakes keep it smaller scale like intrepid/tos/belfast and not psycho-huge like prettymuch everything else) Let us get to know how a crew actually works... let us visit a quartermaster. Let us appoint boffs as crew members (this will cause people to actually buy boff slots from the c-store as the 4 boff away teams are pretty useless)
Back to ESD's Club. Desperate Trill shows up randomly, interacts with females around the club, then gets kicked out by the bouncer. DO MORE OF THIS. not just DT Showing up (but make him show up too) but do this everywhere! Make Admiral Quinn wander around ESD.. maybe go to the Medical ward to get his heart checked since he has a problem in that area.... or make him go over to the exchange and complain about the price of [CryoTribble [Sta] [omg]] or something.
Even on story missions or other adventure zones, Stick a bunch of random character npcs that show up and do something into the game. Not just say "hey Admiral Starchaser" (no thats my dad, i have captain as a tag, i have captain pips, stop calling me admiral) or npcs that idle somewhere forever.
add LIFE to the universe. It makes us feel less alone. even if they have random dialog options with players.. or if DT would randomly hit on Female players every 0.04599999% of the time... It'd really be more engaging.
Yeah. I'll stop here. It's not gonna make a difference anyway.
So much harsh "Black & White" that all the subtleties of "Gray" are lost in the coming storm...
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Comments
I think they went to far to humanize them...
Unfortunately, the characters in this little drama don't seem entirely believable to me. But aside from the formatting problems, it's not such a bad scene and again I recognize the limitations of the blog medium. There's only so much space and they have to keep things tight. I get that the blog writer needed a mouthpiece for the future history lesson they intended to drop.
Hopefully future episodes and blogs will help to justify the more sympathetic treatment of the Na'khul here. But sometimes you just need to let the "bad guys" be the bad guys in the literary sense and spend less time trying to make the reader/player empathize with them, especially when they try so hard to be unlikable. Yeah we know that their planet was destroyed and that they blame the Federation for it and that their anger isn't so much unjustified as it is somewhat misguided. We don't need to have that hammered in over and over. We just spent two episodes having that point driven home, and we're likely to rehash both the Sphere Builder and Stormfront storylines again before it's all over. If we never encounter another Na'khul like Bragg's father who recognizes that things aren't as simple as "destroy the Federation, restore the homeworld", the scene is wasted.
I'd like to see a narrative that explains why the Krenim and the Na'khul were fighting each other in "Time and Tide". On the surface they each have similar goals, after all. I don't buy the confusion of battle theory. What I expect to see is that their goals are mutually exclusive and that the Na'khul are indeed a third front in the Temporal war in opposition to both the Temporal Accords and to the Sphere Builders. "Stormfront" followed hard on the heels of the end of the Xindi/Sphere Builders arc and it might be reasonable to assume that the Na'khul couldn't have done what they did if the Sphere Builders had succeeded. Given what the Builders intended to do to the Expanse and that the Na'khul are likely aware of that and the fact that their homeworld isn't that far off, mutually exclusive goals are a near certainty.
My character Tsin'xing
Having said that, knowing that the guy on the other side of the lines has that kind of courage and determination makes him someone to fear. Knowing that Braag has a family that loves him, and he them and was raised in love and kindness but left that all behind to come kill you means that on the battlefield, he's going to be able to call on all kinds of reserves to keep fighting.
The Na'khul should be a great foe to battle in the future with this story in mind.
You know that time travel Doff assignment from the Temporal Lock Box, where you send your people to prevent another time traveler from killing a conveniently unnamed dictator in the past? This is kind of like that. The point of the Temporal Accord and the Temporal Prime Directive is to preserve a timeline where the Federation came out on top. In that timeline, the Tholians devastated the Na'kuhl. There's no telling how saving the Na'kuhl homeworld would have jeopardized the prosperity of the Federation and its member worlds and species. This is a quite literal case of history being written by the winners.
Out of everything, this made them feel a little bit more realistic even though they are space aliens, which need to kill everyone including the Federation.
My character Tsin'xing
The situation with the Na'kuhl reminds me of the situation that the Germans were in post-WWI. In the attempt to prevent them from waging war on the rest of Europe, the League of Nations went too far, crippling the country, which in turn made the effects of the world-wide depression worse.
This led a lot of people to either join or sympathize with nationalist political groups, like the TRIBBLE.
You don't understand this because...you don't understand that Na'kuhl is equal to Human. Or Romulan. Or Klingon. We are the top sentient beings on the planet that we sprang from, not racists, not in the sense you're trying to take the various races into some kind of race hater war.
Do you think humans are racists because they call themselves humans? And so they don't call Romulans "Humans". No. They call them Romulans.
Na'kuhl is a Race, not a Nationality.
The problem that Historians have with Hitler is that they do not look at any one human from a Spiritual stance. All of our mainstream operates under the assumption that man is an animal, like any other animal, but an animal who is a Sentient Animal nonetheless.
Once you take the Spiritual aspect into consideration, the driving force behind Hitler and others of his ilk becomes crystal clear. I realize most Trek fans do not believe in spiritual matters and so I will not push my opinion on that subject here. I can only say one thing: there is more to life that Life and Death. Believe it or not, there are powers at work for humanity and against humanity that can never be seen, measured, or weighed.
However, do not consider Evil to be the Opposite of Good. Good has No Equal. Evil will lose, ultimately. The end has already been written.
WE WIN.
You're not thinking four dimensionally, Marty!
I don't think it's quite that simple. Remember we have countless parallel timelines in existence within the Trek universe (The Mirror Universe, The J.J. Universe*, all the universes in Parallels... I would argue that Lorien's universe in Enterprise and the micro universe from DS9's "Children of Time" would count among them too, because the prime characters recall events & characters from those episodes).
Note that the first time we encounter Walker, he tells us that the timeline created by our misadventure in the Azure sector is an errant one that should never have existed. He does not say that all other timelines shouldn't exist.
Reading between the lines, I think what is actually happening is that certain actions by time travellers can create unstable timelines that can damage both existing timelines and the fabric of time and space itself... and while naturally occurring or stable generated ones can continue to co-exist with the prime universe, it is the job of the Federation temporal agents and fleet personnel, to detect volatile and dangerous ones from the ripples they cause in the timeline... and repair their damage or prevent them from happening.
One can surmise this simply because other universes *do* exist. If their existence was a threat to the prime universe, it would make sense to assume that a timeship would have stopped the Narada and Spock getting sucked into the singularity created by red matter. It would have stopped Enterprise going off course in the subspace corridor (and so on and so forth).
*Note: You don't have to like that universe to appreciate the concept behind my statement.
Going by the mirror image we have going, I'd wager it started like this:
Na'kuhl lose their homeworld, reduced to colonies and becoming a migrant society in part
Those colonies grow poorer due to stretched resources and external factors such as Ferengi, raiders and so on
Due to the stubborn Na'khul governance, all aid is refused as the politcal elite expect to lose their hold on power should they let aid come in, thus anti-federation paranoia begins as a way to make the polpulace suffer gladly rather than pay the 'cost' of kotowing to the enemy as they are percieved (maybe also aided by furture Na'khul going back in time to reveal what truely happened, ie the root cause was the federation creating the Tox uhat, somewhat absolving the tholians)
As with all things, weaker colonies and such are absorbed by more powerful sources, in part as the governance realises they need the assistance/are coerced/duped into it - This further feeds the paranioa. which by now is fermenting into the beginnings of a true xenophobia but due to societal norms, are not yet expressed as a mass
All it needs now is the right person to fan the flames and blame every problem they have on a sole cause to ignite the powder keg - Like humans, the need to blame -something- for their current state rather than themselves or the authorities is too tempting to ignore, thus this one person creating the initial groundswell of 'punish them for our lot in life' will prove the driving force as an entire races hate is concentrated into a single beam directed at one target, rather than dispersed amongst many - this fervor in kind allowing the creator of the current situation carte blanche to do as they will as all are focussing their might to this one act of retribution
...in fact, it quite surprises me that the Na'khul parents can freely talk against the establishment as one would have expected them to have been 'purged' for their moderate viewpoint
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That'd be pretty awesome.... maybe we end up affecting the events without Archer and company not knowing we were there, such as deactivating some kind of ECM which would have stopped the Enterprises weapons from hitting or we covertly wreck the timegate before the timegate is defacto destroyed (hence why it was taking longer than expected to initiallise)
or failing that... wiping out the remains of the Naz'khul weapons, ensuring they never exist even as blueprints jotted on a napkin
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It is a rather interesting thing to consider, especially given we know how the Temporal Accords are selected with one very particular ultimate goal, to fix a timeline where the Federation absorbs every post-warp society in the galaxy, to become the Galactic Union. Although their description here doesn't quite match up, the Romulans especially seem very happy to go along with the Federation's plans in-game, so the propaganda may not be the ultiamte truth for these particular parties, but perhaps for the rest of the future Federation, beyond the Romulans and Klingons, who are pretty much just as guilty as the earlier Federation of the 25th century.
By that reasoning, it's actually the Romulans fault. If they hadn't gone to war with Earth there would be no Federation.
But wait, if the Romulans hadn't split with the Vulcans, there wouldn't be a Romulan empire. so it's the Vulcans fault.
No, wait. the Vulcans split because of Surak. why don't they go back and kill Surak? was Surak just a puppet?
Iconians!!!!
It's nonsense. this is lazy writing. they're doing what jar jar abrams did to the star trek reboot film. idiotic reasoning to make the plot go where they want it to. basically what they're saying is if a guy breaks into your house and shoots your family, you don't get angry at him, you get angry at the guy in the gunshop who sold him the weapon.!!
that's TRIBBLE. It's ludicrous. It's plot driven stupidity, and laziness. If you just want the Na'kuhl to be bad just say they're overcome with grief at losing their homeworld and lashing out at anyone. the Fed's just happen to be the closest.
The question I want answered is WHY did the Tholians extinguish a star? for fun? to start this temporal war? ignore the idiot terrorists, focus on the real threat.
Unless Na'khul is equivalent to human i.e. their species instead of their nation. Just as with the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians. Vulcans on the other hand refer to their government as the Confederacy of Surak, but as a demonym they're still Vulcan. In Star Trek humans seem to be the outliers naming our planetary nation after our planet instead of our species with United Earth. This is even contrasted against our mirror counterparts the Terran Empire. I suppose humans having so much conflict on our planet don't feel the need to associate our civilization with our species.
From the Doylist storytelling perspective I imagine it's simply not to overwhelm viewers and readers with having to remember a demonym AND a species for every new civilization introduced.
I think species like the Klingons and the Romulans aren't angry so much that they don't deny their own racist practices, but rather they feel the Federation is a bunch of hypocrites preaching species equality while they feel it's just a human empire. They're too untrusting to realize that the Federation is on the level. Also they equate species dominance with military might, and the military leading edge of Federation is the Earth borne Starfleet.
It's not that bad, and Star Trek generally goes about disrupting that given enough time. Back in the original series you had Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones. In TNG we saw several failed instances such as Tasha Yar's warzone of a homeworld.
The fact of the matter is that by necessity Star Trek is a show that centers around the military/NASA of a sprawling interstellar civilization that primarily encounters the military/NASA of other interstellar civilizations. It would be like learning about America from watching MASH, JAG, Top Gun, Tora Tora Tora, The Hunt for Red October, and History Channel documentaries on World War II. Star Trek was never about giving a complete picture, it was focused on the struggles of the crews of the shows.
Redemption is an interesting phrase. Frankly his association with National Socialists is the least of the concerns with this guy. Be honest, do you actually think he gives two pieces of monkey TRIBBLE about Hitler's infantile dreams of world domination? The Third Reich had the resources, the will, and the absolute lack of morals that he needed to manipulate humans into building a weapon that would annihilate their own future. He needed someone stupid. Hitler and friends were perfect.
100% agreed, I appreciate your solution.
I think Archer is highly underrated as a Captain, he did a lot of good out there. And that's before he did the whole found the Federation thing.
The issue with this is that Kal Dano's initial mission was well within the bounds of the Temporal Prime Directive as the destruction the Lukari star is an alteration to the timeline. Him getting the Tox Uthat stolen was his TRIBBLE up.
I think that the parallel to the Hitler Youth movement actually explains that nicely. There were German kids who drew weapons on their parents when they opposed their association with the N@zi party. It was serious. It's either abide it, or simply lose the child completely. They had come to the conclusion that they couldn't change his mind, so they decided to just go along and have one last moment of peace and love before they said goodbye to their son forever.
Monsters always eat their own first. They happily decapitate anyone who doesn't agree with their "ideology" Muslim, Christian, and Jew. That pilot that they incinerated was a Jordanian and he was a Muslim. I'm curious how many Na'khul that didn't agree with him Vosk has killed; or is his hatred purely xenophobic?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
The problem with the Na'khul position is that not only are they untrusting, they also don't care to investigate the people around them. Every time they said no to Federation assistance they basically threw up a Prime Directive sized wall that said don't help the Na'khul. So when they say get out of our system and leave us alone, that's what we have to do. Non-interference. The father seems to understand this which is comforting. I can't help but feel bad for the Na'khul who were not so prideful and xenophobic.
And the Na'khul are most definitely NOT explorers.
It goes to avoiding a planet of hats type of situation. In a civilization of billions or even millions you're going to reach a point where there are independent thinkers unless it's the Borg, or the Romulan Empire and Cardassian Union where independent thought required hazard pay. I have an Israeli friend who makes it a point never to judge a people by their government and that's a good rule of thumb to me.
On the latter agreed. I think that the Na'khul and the Krenim understand something about their goals that we don't yet. Your theory seems right on the nose, the Sphere Builder's goals are basically exclusionary to every other civilization in the galaxy.
Like I said, Khan couldn't be manipulated and would've probably run roughshod over them.
Excellent point. The code of the soldier. It's just like Tran in Cold Comfort.
Again though, according to Captain Walker, in timelines where that doesn't happen apparently there is no history to win, he hinted at something catastrophic, along the lines of time itself coming apart. I think that was also implied when Archer ended the war as well, as history itself had a snap back and a physical reset as well.
Frankly I want to save Clauda though.
That sounds about right.
What the? How is it lazy writing when the father is sitting their pointing out the lunacy of the argument to his brainwashed son? This is the type of stupidity that actually is used in propaganda, and sadly, pitifully it IS effective.
Here's my guess. The Tholians stated that if they didn't feel the Temporal Accords were being enforced strongly enough, that they would take steps. The Tholians want a total ban on time travel period. Considering Stormfront and what we know the Na'khul are going to do, and how Braxton was arrested for crimes he was going to commit, it stands to reason that the Tholians were making a preemptive strike against the Na'khul for something that the Na'khul were going to do if they kept their homeworld and I would imagine resources as a complete nation.
Considering that Walker basically CanEx'ed any idea to work on the Na'khul star and his later remarks about the damage a Temporal War would cause, I think the Na'khul are more dangerous than their tragedy shows them to be. Considering their isolationist stance I wonder if the Na'khul we see in the future isn't that far from their thinking before their star was destroyed. Daniels said they were rather Master race flavored to begin with, so there may be some truth there.
As to why the Union would allow the Tholians to take such an action, it could be an intersection of Temporal Prime Directive and Prime Directive or an understanding that it's a Temporal Paradox required to preserve the existence of time period.
Or is it they are our enemy BUT, they are just misunderstood O.O
Or was it they are our enemy but not really since stuff and all @_@
Maybe the message is the Neckgould hate us want to kill us wipe us from existence blow us to smithereens and do overall nasty stuff to us, BUT we should pause a second while we fight for our lives and give a thought about their families?
I got a special place for the head of Neckgoulds and Noye over my ships fireplace.
(dont ask how my ship has a fireplace, some things should not be asked...EVER!!)
Yeah, you can't help but just sympathize with them, regardless of their actions. But as always, "history" must play out and they must do their "part" which is a total pain btw.
"Our history, our past, our present and our future is now forever changed. All we can do is preserve what is left and continue onwards. This is not a surrender nor defeat, we will continue the fight. This is our last hope, our last chance... for victory."
Vlasek D. Lasor - 4.19.3580
Star Trek Online: Foundry Storyline Series
I've been writing and re-writing condensed versions of things I've written before for the last hour.
The SpacePewPew>GroundPewPew>Alienspecies>MorePewPew thing has gotten stale.
We beat the iconians... in a very trek way, and that was cool. But I don't wanna start a battle across time. I don't wanna fight another generic alien race that randomly comes to power, shows up outta the blew, and then blows up earth. I wanna get back to exploring.
and no, I don't mean I wanna get exploration clusters or some other cheap gimmick back.
I want Bridges. And so does everyone else. Just look at the Galaxy/Intrepid/etc Viral videos people did in UE4 or even the fangame RPG-x.
...As an avid sector space HATER, I frequently point out that getting to your destination is incredibly boring, and highly redundant as you have to beam off spacedock, to Sol, to sector space.
quite franky, we don't require this secondary world map. Stick me on my ship's bridge, let me instruct my conn officer to take us to Nimbus III (via conversation dialog, new UI, I don't care), and then let me wander my ship while it either happens instantly or takes us some random amount of actual time (like a countdown timer) to fly there (basically sector space, but not).
Your "NEW DAWN" should really be letting us get to know our crew. As I can select my "Chief Medical Officer", let me go down to sick bay (yes im suggesting you give each ship a medbay) and find my CMO being stressed out over a case of talaxian mudvipers not breeding correctly.
Let me make my "Jeremy Neelix Guinan" boff the Bartender so I can wander to my TenForward and tell him my problems. Let me get to know my crew, with other players. Let me experience what it's actually like to be a ship captain and not just a spec-ops terminator, solving questions with pewpew or by doing cheesy puzzles to solve disputes.
Give me real story. Human story. Story with emotion or passion.
Quit introducing new bland characters that we never really get to know (Yes Quinn, Shon, I'm talking to you) and make use of the ones you have.
Take Shon... he's Ent-F Captain, he's shown up a few times, and he's kinda acted like a moron and/or been totally useless. Shon has no respect from me, and players can't meet his crew on Utopia Planetia anymore.. Moreover, since ThomasTheCat spearheaded this "all faction npcs look alike" thing, Most players wouldn't even know that the enterprise F crew hangs about in ESD's Club!
...but send us on a diplomatic mission aboard the Enterprise F (here's how you create your first and generic new season interior). Let us explore the inner workings of the Odyssey as we help out Shon (and for god sakes keep it smaller scale like intrepid/tos/belfast and not psycho-huge like prettymuch everything else) Let us get to know how a crew actually works... let us visit a quartermaster. Let us appoint boffs as crew members (this will cause people to actually buy boff slots from the c-store as the 4 boff away teams are pretty useless)
Back to ESD's Club. Desperate Trill shows up randomly, interacts with females around the club, then gets kicked out by the bouncer. DO MORE OF THIS. not just DT Showing up (but make him show up too) but do this everywhere! Make Admiral Quinn wander around ESD.. maybe go to the Medical ward to get his heart checked since he has a problem in that area.... or make him go over to the exchange and complain about the price of [CryoTribble [Sta] [omg]] or something.
Even on story missions or other adventure zones, Stick a bunch of random character npcs that show up and do something into the game. Not just say "hey Admiral Starchaser" (no thats my dad, i have captain as a tag, i have captain pips, stop calling me admiral) or npcs that idle somewhere forever.
add LIFE to the universe. It makes us feel less alone. even if they have random dialog options with players.. or if DT would randomly hit on Female players every 0.04599999% of the time... It'd really be more engaging.
Yeah. I'll stop here. It's not gonna make a difference anyway.
So much harsh "Black & White" that all the subtleties of "Gray" are lost in the coming storm...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Now we have the space Hitler youth brown shirts telling dad to go pack sand.
Kids, listen to your father. Can't you see what you're doing to his ulcer?! Oye!
Have a Coke and a smile.
Love your neighbor as you would love yourself.
Give a hoot don't pollute.
The native American guy is crying.
Are we ready to jump back in time and stop the situation before it happens yet? And who exactly started all this time changing stuff?
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE