so um...all the skill boosts on consoles, engines, deflectors, shields, whatever...what's happening with those since they'll be boosting something that no longer exists?
One of my many concerns for sure, says were not supposed to lose anything but I'm betting that wont be the case. I'll have to see this before I make any judgements, but seems to me I and many others will have ship/character builds that will no longer be worth a damn. Hopefully were pleasantly surprised instead of disappointed.
If we "lose" stuff it'd be due to the relative value of skills changing thus changing what is the best gear.
Wait. This seems a lot like the ORIGINAL Skill Tree just aligned vertically rather than horizontally. It might not be that way in practice, but it does give me that impression.
A quick note for folks wanting to experiment with the new System:
When it arrives on Tribble, we'll have a test vendor available that sells free Respec Tokens, as well as bundles of 10,000 Experience Points. So please try it out when it gets patched to Tribble, and send us your feedback!
I love the look of the new stuff so far, however...
Might I inquire as to whether there is going to be any multi-spec system put into place? I would really love to be able to swap between a 'tank' build and a 'DPS' build at will, rather then having to acquire a respec token - the current inability to do so is a source of great frustration, especially considering that i'm a lifetime member. Even having a way to purchase another skill-tree loadout slot would be welcome.
I left all the rest mmorpg becouse of "we like to make thing more clear for new players"....it ended up allways-allways bad...STO is one of the most comlplicated MMORPG....and Thats WHY I LIke it how it is...Its complexity...Im playing like 3 years and i have to tell there is allways something to learn if a new contents comes out. And thats inspirating...If U guys going to make this changes, then u willl take away this "freedom of creation" from all captian because ppl are too leasy to learn Eng/Ger/Fra languages etc. to understand STO it self.We going to see hundreds and hundreds of the same skilltree.Wich is one of the core point wich give me the feeling: "I can do what ever i want, and how I want and i like it how it is".PPl do like Strek Univers thats great now do not let it riun couse a buch guys who do not have the minimum IQ to play it.Is it harder to play STO as the rest of MMORPG it is...and SORRRY...BUT THATS WHY PPL LIKE IT.U're going to KILL this game for a few low minded....BUT u cloud do it from an other way be more specific in certan thing in the skill tree lets say show the calculation of the corrent players stats and how it would it change with varius chooses on a diagram or with animated mini vid or something. But do not destroy this game with such a changes...why don't u make a free forum to captains ask them what should be a benefit for STO and it community.PIck captains and if it needed pay the to help....Thank U for taking the time to read this.
have a feeling some stuff is going to be nerfed into the ground from this skill change thingy
Yep! I see the FAW/Plasmonic leech thing going right out the window. They are combing flow caps with a bunch of other stuff and most likely push that far down the science tree. LOL
@borticuscryptic a question I have actually concerns the threat generation. I personally like to play as a tank and as such tend to max out things that relate to that, while also striking a balance with my damage abilities. because of that you may have guessed that threat control plays a part in my build. Since you said it's an unlock, will I be able to toggle this ability on and off at will sort of like how it can be done with the ship commands, or will it be a permanently on thing?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Might I inquire as to whether there is going to be any multi-spec system put into place? I would really love to be able to swap between a 'tank' build and a 'DPS' build at will, rather then having to acquire a respec token - the current inability to do so is a source of great frustration, especially considering that i'm a lifetime member. Even having a way to purchase another skill-tree loadout slot would be welcome.
The only question I have is how this will affect current players, regardless of their level. Will we be given the chance to start over and reselect our skills, or are you going to just leave us to dry?
As I've already mentioned, all existing players will automatically have their Skills refunded when this system goes to Holodeck. You will be automatically granted the correct number of Space Points and Ground Points based on your current level.
Will existing characters only be given the one free respec, and be forced to buy additional respecs if they make mistakes, or will they receive a full set of free respecs?
Well this will take some time to get used to, but it will be interesting to see how I'll make my chars after that big change.
Might even have to finally go to tribble to test it out. (nope not doing it)
Galavant!
"Use Temporal Skills to NERF EVERYTHING before it happened!" -Unknown source.
I left all the rest mmorpg becouse of "we like to make thing more clear for new players"....it ended up allways-allways bad...STO is one of the most comlplicated MMORPG....and Thats WHY I LIke it how it is...Its complexity...Im playing like 3 years and i have to tell there is allways something to learn if a new contents comes out. And thats inspirating...If U guys going to make this changes, then u willl take away this "freedom of creation" from all captian because ppl are too leasy to learn Eng/Ger/Fra languages etc. to understand STO it self.We going to see hundreds and hundreds of the same skilltree.Wich is one of the core point wich give me the feeling: "I can do what ever i want, and how I want and i like it how it is".PPl do like Strek Univers thats great now do not let it riun couse a buch guys who do not have the minimum IQ to play it.Is it harder to play STO as the rest of MMORPG it is...and SORRRY...BUT THATS WHY PPL LIKE IT.U're going to KILL this game for a few low minded....BUT u cloud do it from an other way be more specific in certan thing in the skill tree lets say show the calculation of the corrent players stats and how it would it change with varius chooses on a diagram or with animated mini vid or something. But do not destroy this game with such a changes...why don't u make a free forum to captains ask them what should be a benefit for STO and it community.PIck captains and if it needed pay the to help....Thank U for taking the time to read this.
in game name:Daniel Pike@doki777
I agree on this in part. I love having to think more plan more being more idevidual in a game. One of my absolute skill trees ever implemented in a game is from Path of Exile. That thing is massive and beautiful. You have all the basic ideas of being in line with what class you chose but you are never funneled fully into that.
I think giving more option, more ways to branch out and be diffrent. To be the unique Captain of your ship and crew should be important to this game and the Universe it is set in.
I will hold optimism on the new skill stystem until I have tried it out on tribble.
Space is vast, it's wonderful and maddening. Yet in that madness is some of the greatest beauty I have ever seen.
You will get a total of 46 Space Points and 10 Ground Points. There are 90 Space Skill Nodes you can purchase, and 20 Ground Skill Nodes. So no, you won't be able to buy everything.
That's a shame
Not as much as you are thinking:
Currently -
spendable : max possible
space = 300,000 : 630,000, ratio = 0.47619...
ground = 100,000 : 180,000 ratio = 0.55555...
New -
spendable : max possible
space = 46 : 90 ratio = 0.51111....
ground = 10 : 20 ratio = 0.5
So the only people being nerfed are pure ground specced characters; an average player can expect an increase in their potential given the vast majority of players spec more into space than ground.
The old system awarded a decreasing Skill improvement (18/18/18/10/10/10/5/5/5) per "pip" purchased, where you could trade say 15 Skill in something you might consider a priority to gain 54 Skill in something you desired as a secondary characteristic, while conversely allowing you to completely ignore one category of high-cost Skills (say Subspace Decompiler) in order to allow for a heavier investment in less expensive Skills (say Graviton Generators). The new system lacks that capability, with each unlock costing just as much as the next. Until we actually get a chance to see what it does in practice, I think your math is a tad simplistic.
A quick note for folks wanting to experiment with the new System:
When it arrives on Tribble, we'll have a test vendor available that sells free Respec Tokens, as well as bundles of 10,000 Experience Points. So please try it out when it gets patched to Tribble, and send us your feedback!
Yeah, I suspect I'll be playing over there for awhile.
Actually, @borticuscryptic, will this have a direct impact on Professions? Specifically, if our "Engineer" is invested heavily in the Tac/Sci Tree and ignores the Eng Tree entirely, will they get Tac/Sci Captain Abilities (Attack Pattern Alpha, Sensor Sweep, etc.) rather than Engineer ones?
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Since you said it's an unlock, will I be able to toggle this ability on and off at will sort of like how it can be done with the ship commands, or will it be a permanently on thing?
The new "Threatening Stance" toggle is an on/off choice that can be changed on the fly.
The Unlock mentioned simply improves the effectiveness of Threatening Stance while it's active, while also reducing the amount of Threat naturally generated when Threatening Stance is NOT turned on.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I hope this new system will remove the class dependence on certain kinds of ships. As it stands now an engineer will never be as good as a tactical officer in an escort ship or a tactical officer in a cruiser. Which really locks people into certain classed ships for their character if they want to excel in that specific ship type. I figure not too many people want to grind an entirely new character just so they can be really good at one certain type of ship over another. You'd probably sell more ships too if people didn't feel so locked into specific ship classes.
The described changes look interesting. I've never liked the way my ground fighting captains felt slightly cheated in space combat due the competition between both sides. Many of the current captains abilities aren't used (threat control, stealth, subspace decompiler) as much because they don't work well or they aren't needed.
This could be a good opportunity to address power creep some dislike. It could also inflate it. The changes in drains will certainly have an effect on plasmonic leach.
What I am concerned about is how changes will effect things I have purchased. Plasmonic leech is one of them. I've seen my T5Us and T5 ships become obsolete after paying a lot of money for them. Universal consoles are generally poor choices over skill boosting consoles, both of which we pay for. Will you be boosting the effectiveness of items to allow them to keep their current level of effectiveness? The drains changes for instance?
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
If certain skills of old are being grouped together such as with control skills, I'm assuming if you pick that option your skill will be divided between those areas making up that new skill. So are we going to loose out here? I mean I have full points in grav gens on one toon but zero in subspace decompiler, so if my skills are shared between the two now I must be loosing somewhere? Or everyone is going to be getting more powerful as they become trained in skills they used to ignore.
Basically I want to know if my current high investments in skills will translate to equal mastery under the new system or will it be more watered down and spread out "jack of all trades" after the revamp.
So if we invest heavily in tactical skills we get bonus threat even if we don't want it? Poor escorts...
No, Threat Control is still a choice you can make or not make. Up to you.
So how do Unlock Paths work then? Reputation Unlocks and Specialization Unlocks are mostly automatic so I assumed Skill Unlocks would be as well. Unless Threat Control is now a toggle? (Oh, I hope it is now a toggle!)
Hopefully we will get to try this stuff out on the test server soon!
ETA: Bort posted while I was typing. Yay!, it is a toggle!
My opinion:
1) This revamp is good-for-nothing , because 9/10 players have the same skill points (in DPS way)
2) I do not like skill-point system in general , because f.e. if i want change my all beams build ship for torp boat i am forced to buy reskill token (for zens! - unlike the specialization for free)
3) By how it looks at first sight , this is no change , only three category make one, still you will be limited in your builds
4) I doubt it somehow changes the domination of tactician's dps build
5) Meantime the only good thing seems Long range targeting sensors, anyone who saw five scimitars directly pasted on the cube will agree
My personal bad feeling about this is that i wont be able to re-create my current builds and how it works in the new Skill tree.
Dont get me wrong, i certainly understand that the current skill tree is a bit complex and might be an issue to newer players that havent learned alot about the mechanics in the game.
But the way i see this described so far it seems like we throw Build Diversity out of the window for the sake of easier understanding.
As Complex and hard to understand the current Skill Tree is, it allowed for alot of Customization.
Ofcourse i might be wrong, afterall we have yet to see it on Tribble in its whole Glory.
Just saying thats one of my Bad Feelings about this.
FYI: Bort has answered more important questions on Tribble. Pasting below since some are pretty good.
When we acquire a skill (passive or active), do we get the full 99 points we would have had from maxing the equivalent skill under the old system?
You'll actually be getting the equivalent of 100 points instead of 99. But it will usually be split into multiple nodes.
For 3-node Skills: 50, 35, 15
For 2-node Skills: 60, 40
I'm assuming that batteries, driver coil, and threat control are all engineering unlocks. The problem is that the user might want some of these, but not all of them. And if the unlocks are granted automatically based on the number of points spent in the engineering branch, then the user loses control over which unlocks are acquired.
Some are automatically granted, but most are Choices that let you customize your character. Threat Control, for example, is offered as a choice, with the opposite choice being ... yknow, I forget offhand. I think Stealth boosts?
Almost all ground skills under the old system were kit skills. With all kit skills getting merged, what exactly is taking their place?
We've introduced a few new Skills, such as Weapon Penetration (Adds +Pen to ground weapons) and Endurance Training (Increases Max HP). But it's true that there are far fewer Ground Skills than there are Space Skills. You'll also have fewer Ground Points to spend, though.
Are you going to explain the math? The math behind some game mechanics, such as damage resistance and turn rate, is a mystery to most players. I'm still not sure anyone completely understands damage resistance, though rbaker82 did a good job demystifying much of it. Some of the newer mechanics like shield hardness, shield penetration, and armor penetration could also use an explanation.
Many underlying mechanics, such as those you mention, are being streamlined as much as possible. Small tweaks up/down to simplify their calculations and make it possible for us to easily explain to players what 1 Point of X Skill gets them.
(Long-Range Targeting Sensors) Do they both have 'old' Cannon drop-off, or both have 'old' Beam drop-off? Or is it a new intermediate value, given the new skill?
There's more to this than is covered in the blog, as well. We have also normalized the drop-off between Cannons and Beams, as part of these changes. Both have the same drop-off calculations, now.
Previously:
Cannons lost 60% of their base damage potential at 10km
Beams lost 40% of their base damage potential at 10km
Now:
Both lose 50% of their base damage potential at 10km (and this loss can be mitigated with the new Skill)
What about consoles?
Existing Consoles will be translated to the new Skills. You'll see plenty (possibly too many) that boost Control Expertise and/or Drain Expertise.
Sounds very interesting. A revamp of the skill system is very much welcome. But with yet another set of new abilities coming in, would you please consider expanding the UI so we have enough room to slot them all? A fourth or even fifth row of possible abilities would be very much appreciated.
@borticuscryptic one other question regarding the threatening stance and resists. As it sits right now from the way I read the current skill it also provides some damage resistance boost as well. Forgive me if I missed this portion of it but, are these resists being removed or how is that going to work? Also how will these new skill changes effect resistances overall such as Antiproton damage resist or disruptor resistances overall being an example?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
My opinion:
1) This revamp is good-for-nothing , because 9/10 players have the same skill points (in DPS way)
2) I do not like skill-point system in general , because f.e. if i want change my all beams build ship for torp boat i am forced to buy reskill token (for zens! - unlike the specialization for free)
3) By how it looks at first sight , this is no change , only three category make one, still you will be limited in your builds
4) I doubt it somehow changes the domination of tactician's dps build
5) Meantime the only good thing seems Long range targeting sensors, anyone who saw five scimitars directly pasted on the cube will agree
have a feeling some stuff is going to be nerfed into the ground from this skill change thingy
Why not? You think the game is hard? This would be a nerf to all equally.
Lol, from a science captain point of view, this is a boost. Poor subspace decompiler and countermeasure systems which were underused because of how expensive they were now are joined with grav gens. My science captain loves this change.
About the combined skill powers: Do they give more or less of a benefit than as if they did before? Here's what I mean: because now certain skills are combined and I can't focus more on one than the other, do those skills still give me same benefit as before if I maxed out both of those now combined skills? Or am I actually LOSING benefit in one of those areas because YOU decided that I HAVE to have those skills combined, not me? What if I WANT to focus more on damage instead of defense? Now that certain defense and offense skills are combined, am I actually getting the same as I would if I COULD max out both?
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
=/\= ========================================== =/\=
Fleet Admiral Winters - Priority One Armada
U.S.S. Wolverine - NCC 831216
=/\= ========================================== =/\=
Armada Leader // Executive Producer // Host // Priority One Podcast
I love the look of the new stuff so far, however...
Might I inquire as to whether there is going to be any multi-spec system put into place? I would really love to be able to swap between a 'tank' build and a 'DPS' build at will, rather then having to acquire a respec token - the current inability to do so is a source of great frustration, especially considering that i'm a lifetime member. Even having a way to purchase another skill-tree loadout slot would be welcome.
I agree copletly with Nimrod007
Yep! I see the FAW/Plasmonic leech thing going right out the window. They are combing flow caps with a bunch of other stuff and most likely push that far down the science tree. LOL
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I agree. A lot of builds are going to be nerfed into the ground :-(
In particular..these FAW/Leech boats comes to mind
Very much this
Will existing characters only be given the one free respec, and be forced to buy additional respecs if they make mistakes, or will they receive a full set of free respecs?
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
Might even have to finally go to tribble to test it out. (nope not doing it)
"Use Temporal Skills to NERF EVERYTHING before it happened!" -Unknown source.
I agree on this in part. I love having to think more plan more being more idevidual in a game. One of my absolute skill trees ever implemented in a game is from Path of Exile. That thing is massive and beautiful. You have all the basic ideas of being in line with what class you chose but you are never funneled fully into that.
I think giving more option, more ways to branch out and be diffrent. To be the unique Captain of your ship and crew should be important to this game and the Universe it is set in.
I will hold optimism on the new skill stystem until I have tried it out on tribble.
The old system awarded a decreasing Skill improvement (18/18/18/10/10/10/5/5/5) per "pip" purchased, where you could trade say 15 Skill in something you might consider a priority to gain 54 Skill in something you desired as a secondary characteristic, while conversely allowing you to completely ignore one category of high-cost Skills (say Subspace Decompiler) in order to allow for a heavier investment in less expensive Skills (say Graviton Generators). The new system lacks that capability, with each unlock costing just as much as the next. Until we actually get a chance to see what it does in practice, I think your math is a tad simplistic.
Yeah, I suspect I'll be playing over there for awhile.
Actually, @borticuscryptic, will this have a direct impact on Professions? Specifically, if our "Engineer" is invested heavily in the Tac/Sci Tree and ignores the Eng Tree entirely, will they get Tac/Sci Captain Abilities (Attack Pattern Alpha, Sensor Sweep, etc.) rather than Engineer ones?
The new "Threatening Stance" toggle is an on/off choice that can be changed on the fly.
The Unlock mentioned simply improves the effectiveness of Threatening Stance while it's active, while also reducing the amount of Threat naturally generated when Threatening Stance is NOT turned on.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
This could be a good opportunity to address power creep some dislike. It could also inflate it. The changes in drains will certainly have an effect on plasmonic leach.
What I am concerned about is how changes will effect things I have purchased. Plasmonic leech is one of them. I've seen my T5Us and T5 ships become obsolete after paying a lot of money for them. Universal consoles are generally poor choices over skill boosting consoles, both of which we pay for. Will you be boosting the effectiveness of items to allow them to keep their current level of effectiveness? The drains changes for instance?
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
If certain skills of old are being grouped together such as with control skills, I'm assuming if you pick that option your skill will be divided between those areas making up that new skill. So are we going to loose out here?
I mean I have full points in grav gens on one toon but zero in subspace decompiler, so if my skills are shared between the two now I must be loosing somewhere? Or everyone is going to be getting more powerful as they become trained in skills they used to ignore.
Basically I want to know if my current high investments in skills will translate to equal mastery under the new system or will it be more watered down and spread out "jack of all trades" after the revamp.
Hope that makes sense!
So how do Unlock Paths work then? Reputation Unlocks and Specialization Unlocks are mostly automatic so I assumed Skill Unlocks would be as well. Unless Threat Control is now a toggle? (Oh, I hope it is now a toggle!)
Hopefully we will get to try this stuff out on the test server soon!
ETA: Bort posted while I was typing. Yay!, it is a toggle!
1) This revamp is good-for-nothing , because 9/10 players have the same skill points (in DPS way)
2) I do not like skill-point system in general , because f.e. if i want change my all beams build ship for torp boat i am forced to buy reskill token (for zens! - unlike the specialization for free)
3) By how it looks at first sight , this is no change , only three category make one, still you will be limited in your builds
4) I doubt it somehow changes the domination of tactician's dps build
5) Meantime the only good thing seems Long range targeting sensors, anyone who saw five scimitars directly pasted on the cube will agree
Why not? You think the game is hard? This would be a nerf to all equally.
Dont get me wrong, i certainly understand that the current skill tree is a bit complex and might be an issue to newer players that havent learned alot about the mechanics in the game.
But the way i see this described so far it seems like we throw Build Diversity out of the window for the sake of easier understanding.
As Complex and hard to understand the current Skill Tree is, it allowed for alot of Customization.
Ofcourse i might be wrong, afterall we have yet to see it on Tribble in its whole Glory.
Just saying thats one of my Bad Feelings about this.
When we acquire a skill (passive or active), do we get the full 99 points we would have had from maxing the equivalent skill under the old system?
You'll actually be getting the equivalent of 100 points instead of 99. But it will usually be split into multiple nodes.
For 3-node Skills: 50, 35, 15
For 2-node Skills: 60, 40
I'm assuming that batteries, driver coil, and threat control are all engineering unlocks. The problem is that the user might want some of these, but not all of them. And if the unlocks are granted automatically based on the number of points spent in the engineering branch, then the user loses control over which unlocks are acquired.
Some are automatically granted, but most are Choices that let you customize your character. Threat Control, for example, is offered as a choice, with the opposite choice being ... yknow, I forget offhand. I think Stealth boosts?
Almost all ground skills under the old system were kit skills. With all kit skills getting merged, what exactly is taking their place?
We've introduced a few new Skills, such as Weapon Penetration (Adds +Pen to ground weapons) and Endurance Training (Increases Max HP). But it's true that there are far fewer Ground Skills than there are Space Skills. You'll also have fewer Ground Points to spend, though.
Are you going to explain the math? The math behind some game mechanics, such as damage resistance and turn rate, is a mystery to most players. I'm still not sure anyone completely understands damage resistance, though rbaker82 did a good job demystifying much of it. Some of the newer mechanics like shield hardness, shield penetration, and armor penetration could also use an explanation.
Many underlying mechanics, such as those you mention, are being streamlined as much as possible. Small tweaks up/down to simplify their calculations and make it possible for us to easily explain to players what 1 Point of X Skill gets them.
(Long-Range Targeting Sensors) Do they both have 'old' Cannon drop-off, or both have 'old' Beam drop-off? Or is it a new intermediate value, given the new skill?
There's more to this than is covered in the blog, as well. We have also normalized the drop-off between Cannons and Beams, as part of these changes. Both have the same drop-off calculations, now.
Previously:
Cannons lost 60% of their base damage potential at 10km
Beams lost 40% of their base damage potential at 10km
Now:
Both lose 50% of their base damage potential at 10km (and this loss can be mitigated with the new Skill)
What about consoles?
Existing Consoles will be translated to the new Skills. You'll see plenty (possibly too many) that boost Control Expertise and/or Drain Expertise.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Lol, from a science captain point of view, this is a boost. Poor subspace decompiler and countermeasure systems which were underused because of how expensive they were now are joined with grav gens. My science captain loves this change.