I call BS on the dilithium "saturation" theory. The biggest reason there's such a demand for Zen is because of the Zen-only T6 releases and the fact that you can't obtain one outside of either Zen purchase or Lockbox (which requires Zen to get keys).
The "value" of dilithium is subjective. It's not like the resource itself is either common nor rare in abundance. The market rate fluctuates because of demand- and the demand is mainly based on Dilithium to Zen conversion.
The rates don't go up "because the market is saturated" with Dilithium, but rather the demand for Zen in order to obtain what cannot be obtained without Zen.
FINALLY, some one who gets the picture.. "Dil" is NOT the problem. The Dil/Zen Exchange is working the way it was designed to do and bolster the Cryptic/PWE Market. In fact, it IS - Working As Intended.
Working so well in fact, IMHO, it's the ONE and ONLY "feature" of the game that has an @ 99.3% bugless rate - Dil Exchange
Which is more important to the general player ? Being able to play the game in a steady infrastructure, minimal "buggy" environment, and stuff that actually works when it supposed to, or play the market ??
Warning, this may get long !!!! But should prove an interesting read !!
Have you ever wondered WHY there are only two (2) ways to buy Zen ?? Either REAL LIFE Money or via the Dil Exchange.
Why not with Energy Credits (EC) ?? Well, Energy Credits:
(1) Do ABSOLUTELY SQUAT for the metrics. Grinding Dilithium does;
(2) Have absolute ZERO value except at the exchange or Vendors. Can't use EC in the c-Store. now referred to as the Zen-Store;
(3) "I can buy Keys with EC" you say. Who cares. Those keys cost ZEN and the Zen was paid for in Real World money. That is, if you want to believe those couple million Zen for sale were all paid for to begin with.
Warning - Possible Reality Check Follows:
(1) Dil is funny-"Monopoly"- in-game money; ZEN is real life Money to Cryptic/PWE; A known fact when they Converted
(2) ZEN value; real or imagined, is what drives the market, not Dil. The amount of available Dil has no bearing in/on the exchange rate;
(3) Lock Box Keys ?? Has any one noticed the Exchange price for Keys has been stagnant for what a year ?? @4mill and holding; Surely they aren't driving the market !!
(4) Not Enough Dil Sinks ?? I suggest you talk to Fleets and Armada's.. Dilithium remains the NUMBER ONE ITEM NEEDED for donations;
(5) R&D - have too much Dil on your hands ??.. Craft some stuff.. It will quickly disappear;
(6) Upgrades.. Yep another great way to diminish the amount of dil in your "Assets" locker;
(7) Daily Refinement Cap - Folks scream it's too low.. Need to raise it.. More available dil means a quicker run to 500 and beyond !! More available Dil equals a higher cost per Zen, not a lowered exchange ratio.
Now, IMHO, Why ??
(1) Who and WHY pay 750 Million for a half-TRIBBLE ship ?? Answer - 'Cause it's cheaper than the cost of keys and the odds of getting one in a lock box. And, who/what drives those odds ?? Certainly NOT the Dil Exchange;
(2) Admiralty System - Yep. I like it.. Another source of DIL for my Fleet/Armada. **BUT** Shipyard "Dilithium" cost ships were reduced by what 50% ?? Folks that wanted those ships, may not have had the Dil on hand, or had the daily Cap..
(3) Refinement Cap - Want to beat it ?? So, Let's buy some ZEN, jack the price a little at a time, then WHAM.. Sell 3,000 Zen and have 900,000 Dil with NO DAILY REFINEMENT CAP. Now I can epeen my brag with 150 ships in Admiralty;
(4) FLEETS/ARMADA's - Yes folks.. They play the market. Some of those Upgrades cost 2 MILLION Dilithium; Upgrading the Spire (3 steps total) to T2 costs over 2 Million Dil. And why do they play the Market ?? Members aren't throwing Dil at the Projects. So. Fleets/Armada's are NOT the sink some of you think they are;
(5) Zen Ship Bundles, One-of-a-Kind c-Store, Ship Sales, cStore sales in General - And how do you "buy from the cStore ?? Why with Zen of course. This is totally the way it's supposed to work for Cryptic. ZEN equals Real World Money to Cryptic;
And my Final "IMHO" on why the exchange rate will ONLY keep rising - Players
Players who: (1) Want it Now; (2) Take full advantage of the "gotta-have-it-now" folks; (3) fail to realize/understand the "real" in-game money; and finally (4) Good ol' plain-in-your-face greed.
Add some more stuff to the dilithium store
Wacky things, fun things, things that go beep boop
Or god forbid they actually add more special exclusive items to that store...
IMHO one way to bring it down would be to increase the refining cap from the current 8 k to a more realistic 16k a day. The excess Dilth would very quickly be eaten up by fleet projects or conversion to zen. I have so much unrefined ore on my toons its sickening. I easily gather way more dilth a day then the 8k capthrough farming and mission rewards.
Keys have gone from about 2.5mil to over 4mil in the course of the year, and were even over 5mil at one point. They've not really been stagnant for the whole period.
IMHO one way to bring it down would be to increase the refining cap from the current 8 k to a more realistic 16k a day. The excess Dilth would very quickly be eaten up by fleet projects or conversion to zen. I have so much unrefined ore on my toons its sickening. I easily gather way more dilth a day then the 8k capthrough farming and mission rewards.
Agreed, they bumped up ways to get dill but not the cap. Sadly, I don't think Cryptic will ever bump up the cap...
IMHO one way to bring it down would be to increase the refining cap from the current 8 k to a more realistic 16k a day. The excess Dilth would very quickly be eaten up by fleet projects or conversion to zen. I have so much unrefined ore on my toons its sickening. I easily gather way more dilth a day then the 8k capthrough farming and mission rewards.
or people being... well people will continue to hoard and compain their not getting enough and still not donate to projects . oh that not getting into what it'll do to the dil/zen exchange.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
IMHO one way to bring it down would be to increase the refining cap from the current 8 k to a more realistic 16k a day. The excess Dilth would very quickly be eaten up by fleet projects or conversion to zen. I have so much unrefined ore on my toons its sickening. I easily gather way more dilth a day then the 8k capthrough farming and mission rewards.
Agreed, they bumped up ways to get dill but not the cap. Sadly, I don't think Cryptic will ever bump up the cap...
That would lower the value of Dilithium even more!
We need ways to make Dilithium harder to get, which would then raise it's value against Zen..
What we need is a way to meaningfully use dilithium other than exchanging it for zen to buy ships with.
That would suck up a decent amount without it even going near the exchange.
My preferred idea would be add to the crafting system the ability to pick your mods for items but make it cost a massive amount of dilithium for the benefit of doing so.
No, @sunfrancks what we need is cap to dil to Zen (say 300:1) and then bumping up the dil cap. That wouldnt crash it further actually.
What you're saying is basically make dil harder to get and will lower the ratio, yes but this isn't a fix - the optimal worth of zen would be the same for a average person, twice less dil farmed twice less zen cost = zen cost stays the same. Only ones benefitting from your fix would be hoarders, those that werent donating to fleet projects but Just saved Massive ammounts of dil. Irony is If theyd release loads at the same time they would crash the dil exchange even further since theyd be the only ones with dil to buy for increasing prices and average players would struggle producing dil. Think about it. As i Said in another thread we NEED dil to zen cap.
(3) Lock Box Keys ?? Has any one noticed the Exchange price for Keys has been stagnant for what a year ?? @4mill and holding; Surely they aren't driving the market !!
I'm sorry...but BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You think that keys jumping to 4 mil in recent times is stagnated prices....yeah...that right there kinda ruined all your credibility.
The word "Stagnant" may not have been the best word to use. Averaged would have been better. If you "average" the price over the year, my statement remains "Valid" at "about" 4 mil and holding. 'nuff said...
IMHO one way to bring it down would be to increase the refining cap from the current 8 k to a more realistic 16k a day. The excess Dilth would very quickly be eaten up by fleet projects or conversion to zen. I have so much unrefined ore on my toons its sickening. I easily gather way more dilth a day then the 8k capthrough farming and mission rewards.
More and more people complain about the Dil Cap. Increasing the cap will only bring more dil to the exchange for more Zen, to buy More Keys, to sell on the exchange, or take pot-shots at the Lock Box Lottery/gambling geni.
People with "tons of dil sitting around" are obviously NOT donating it to fleet projects. Across my 9 toons I have over 1million Dil on 3, and at leat 600k on the rest, and after 5 years of playing, I keep about 5K unrefined on each toon. All 9 of my toons are in Fleets, and they all have over 1.5mil Fleet credits.
Want Zen, then whip out the REAL MONEY.. Don't want to, or your folks won't let you spend Real Money, then Dil is the only alternative. IMHO, the ONLY reason dil has any "perceived" value, is that it is the ONLY OTHER way, besides REAL MONEY, to buy Zen. And the "percieived" value of ZEN is based on what people will pay.
The price in real money for ZEN has not changed, and there are always Sales as well. As the exchange rate continues to creep up, one day, it WILL hit a point where it's cheaper to BUY ZEN with real money than it is using Dil..
When I saw the cheapest was at 290, I just said a naughty word.
Then seriously thanked Cryptic for my stipend every month.
I now feel rich and dirty.....
I have seen the Dill exchange be as low 98 and high as 404 since I have been playing What goes on sale makes dil exchange go up. Also I do think at times STO put up ZEN to drive it back down
I don't understand this simple math with 'cannot sell for more than 200'? When I went to school I wasn't taught about five step processes to add or multiply two numbers together. We just did it.
Please explain the logic behind this 200.
Thank you.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
maybe numbers now only go up to 200? I'm old so I don't know either.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Aside from the diversionary conversation regarding a "magic number", I think one of the steps Cryptic/PWE could take to clean up the process would be to streamline the C-Store purchase process. As of now, you can obtain items with Zen, Dilithium, Fleet Credits and Fleet Modules.
One problem is that since the level cap was raised, the ship system wasn't revised- before Admiral (U/L Admiral) you had more choice in how to obtain ships aside from the token- such as Dil. After which, you'd then have to use Zen or a combo of Fleet Credits/Modules which also depend on provisioning in Fleets.
One solution would be to update the Ship system so that you could obtain ships with Dilithium would the need for Zen conversion or purchasing Fleet Modules, for ships T5+ (T6, T7, etc.) which would provide yet another sink above Admiral. I highly doubt PWE/C will do this though, as it would compete with their direct Zen purchases with real world money. (selling T6 ships, yada yada)
Another would be to add a direct conversion system for players to spend EC/Dil/Zen at a set rate- which PWE/C would determine so that it keeps things balanced- players then could use whatever flavor of currency they wished to make C-Store purchases provided they have the currency on-hand.
Are these perfect solutions? No- but I'm open to alternative suggestions that don't favor certain players over others. I've read a lot of suggestions regarding the cap increase/constraint, setting the dil exchange at higher/lower values, etc. and it seems it shifts the balance from one end of the spectrum to the other- not really a balanced way to resolve the issue. No matter what, at the end of the day- if your suggestion is going to TRIBBLE someone else over in favor of yourself or others, you're going to get debates and arguments. When you think of a solution, consider all of the variables- not just the ones you want to see.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
More and more people complain about the Dil Cap. Increasing the cap will only bring more dil to the exchange for more Zen, to buy More Keys, to sell on the exchange, or take pot-shots at the Lock Box Lottery/gambling geni.
[...]
The price in real money for ZEN has not changed, and there are always Sales as well. As the exchange rate continues to creep up, one day, it WILL hit a point where it's cheaper to BUY ZEN with real money than it is using Dil..
Dilithium Exchange - Working as Intended....
The points you make are for the most part descriptive ('I know how things work'), not predictive ('this is why x relates to y and this is how I propose things really work because of z').
For example, it is obvious increasing Dil cap will "only bring more dil to the exchange" but who cares what people are able to do with it - most already know unless they are completely new to the game. Prediction and understanding would make a point: it would drive the Dil-Ex much higher overnight.
Many fail to grasp this because they only think in personal short-term gains: they have more dilithium meaning they can cash in more zen for a few days before the inevitable happens: their Dil is worthless since supply is flooding in by every single player who ever reaches their daily cap.
The price of real money for Zen could have changed based on what the US currency is doing versus those of other countries. US currency went up, so that buying Zen in Canada for example will be very costly now vs before. A lifetime membership which cannot be acquired with prepaid cards (for however long even those will be around), meaning fewer will buy LTS and help drive the Dil-Ex down a tiny bit with their 'free' monthly 500 Z should they use it for some quick Dil.
Zen is the general currency, Dil is transferable partly (it gets bound to STO as soon as it enters exchange from my understanding) and gets devalued as we see happening now, and Dil->EC is the 3rd lockdown. EC still relates to Zen because you can do things with EC or Dil to prevent needing to use Zen in the first place. You can get Dil with EC, with the simplest example being buying contraband and turning it in without flying around to collect it.
Zen only exists because someone bought it (or indirectly bought it and placed it on exchange with their LTS monthly stipend), so you cannot "buy" it through the Dil-Ex, only convert virtual currency for Cash that's been converted - also made virtual - into STO-Bound Zen.
About Dil Sinks, I agree, they don't work very well, which is why my predicted solution is to drastically decrease the amount of Dil being rewarded from all sources. It will take at least a year, but the overall decreased Dil supply combined with the immediate perception of the now increased value of Dil from new players means more Zen will be on the market, driving prices down.
To see evidence of this, examine the Dil-Ex charts thanks to Reddit users who also pointed out the most drastic increase in Dil-Ex was when sector patrols were also given Dil payouts. I specifically remember the exact time when L60 cap and spec trees were introduced, it was a choice between getting Dil or XP at good rates, until that too changed.
More evidence of increased flood of Dil? Cryptic even helped us turn in 15 rep marks to Dil every hour by setting sliders to max, which makes it much more convenient. Before that they also added the ability to turn in more rep marks and special rep items (Ex. bnp) into Dil. Another major flood of Dil.
Zen has also increased in value because of the increased costs of ships themselves. 500 Zen, or upgrade tokens, and +100 lobi are a significant and sudden jump for items that are definitely more powerful and fun to use, and which bring in game aspects never before seen in any older tiers (starship traits, specialty ship abilities, specialty/hybrid specialty boff seatings, new ship sub-classes (science dreadnought, 5/1 raider, battle cloaking fed C-store ship)).
Also agree about why ships cost so much: because of Cryptic's decision to set the drop rates as low as they are for lockbox items and certain other in-game items (ex. Purple Rom SRO Boffs). They even introduced the 'Vonph model lockbox' 2 for 1, which I predict will be in effect for the next coming lockbox, which they specifically warn will have very low drop rates indirectly for the highest prized item. It is by design that there's an average set amount of lobi dropping from each box, and the set price of lobi items which too were increased.
Those who say the Dil-Ex it is 'player driven' conveniently forget that the entire environment is pre-set, from how much time it takes to do a mission, to what its reward is, to what the cost of C-store items are set at, to when sales happen, all 'calibrated' for maximum profit and player retention based on how other MMOs perform. "Greed" isn't an accurate term either to describe the Dil-Ex behaviour, since everyone naturally wants to maximize what they get (economics). It isn't a charity to be giving people stuff because they're in need where greed would be taking it all for yourself and giving nothing - it's an agreement and balance point that should benefit everyone (buyers and sellers) provided it is a free market and that there's sufficient people buying Zen and playing (acquiring Dil).
Right now, that's not happening given how much Dil has been and continues to be rewarded from everything, and I agree, when the market hits 500 cap, Zen will begin to vanish from there altogether while ref Dil just keeps on stockpiling.
Devs: Provide the option to Turn OFF full screen flashes from enemy ship explosions
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- spec points
- more character slots
- respeccs
- Temporary admirality Ships for hire
- Temporary Doffs for hire
- Temporary RnD XP boost.
- Direct Rnd XP
- you can bascially use dilithium as a major time sink alleviation tool for palyers who have enough and just want to do other stuff for the giggles.
Dilithium is used for so much in this game it's rediculous.... it would take years of grinding to get what you need. I understand it's original purpose but the game has evolved considerably since it's introduction and so it needs to as well.
I already addressed the lack of dilithium contributions to fleets in a previous thread, my hypothesis is that the rewards totaly suck so the fleet credit payout needs to upped considerably to help. Adjustments need to be made to rebalance dilithium cost and reward payout. More sinks won't fix the issue it is the issue.
I wish all in game dil needs were for ORE only, and the Exchange needed Refined only. That would make the 8k a day irrelevant for in game needs, and only limit Real Money to Game Time conversions.
As it stands now, to get a 3000 Zen ship, that's 127 Days of 8k max conversions.
Add some more stuff to the dilithium store
Wacky things, fun things, things that go beep boop
Or god forbid they actually add more special exclusive items to that store...
like.... playable ARGO on every map that you need to rebuy with every use? Or a horse? Or jetpacks that work everywhere? Or combat pets?
IMHO one way to bring it down would be to increase the refining cap from the current 8 k to a more realistic 16k a day. The excess Dilth would very quickly be eaten up by fleet projects or conversion to zen. I have so much unrefined ore on my toons its sickening. I easily gather way more dilth a day then the 8k capthrough farming and mission rewards.
Well, in Neverwinter they raised the daily refinement cap from 24k to 36k. It didn't do a thing to the zen exchange. It was right below 400 before the change and it's still there.
What really brought down from being constantly at 500 there was a massive nerf to leadership (which is a mix between admiralty and doffing). I don't want them nerf anything instead add dil only gadgets.
Yeeeeaaahhhh...... it's not that Dil is worth less, it's that Zen is worth more (i.e, there's more and more demand for it). The steady release of T6 ships, the demand for lockbox keys, the Admiralty system (buy more ships you'll never fly!).... it's been a "need more Zen!" world for close to a year now. Of course the exchange rate is going up. Why wouldn't it?
I always find these "the sky is falling!" exchange threads amusing. When I started playing, the rate had been over 300 for a while, and was heading down. And the forum was full of "OMG, game economy is DOOMED!" threads.... because the exchange was below 300. And "everyone knew" that the rate had to stay over 300, so that the Big Money Men would consider it worthwhile to buy zen, exchange it for Dil, and use that Dil to single-handedly support their fleet Dil demands. Why, if the rate dropped below 300, the whales would stop putting cash into the game, and STO would go out of business! PANIC!
<insert Picard facepalm here>
But yeah, these "OMG, exchange going up! It's above 150/200/etc! PANIC!" threads are just as funny as those old threads were.
----
It'd be nice to see some full statistics - not just forum dwellers bragging about how much unrefined they have sitting around - on Dil earning across the playerbase. I remember seeing comments about how a majority of players never hit the cap (usually in "up the refine limit!" threads), but that was awhile back.
I only know about me, personally. Outside of a few Dil weekends, when I had lots of Mining Claims lying around, or the 3 days after finishing a rep/hitting rank 10 on Klingon Admiralty, I've never had a character with excess unrefined Dil. I don't cap out daily. Of course, I'm not playing hours a day every day anymore. What I do have is 8 characters who, on one daily run of doffs & admiralty, manage in the 2-4k range. So I can get 15-20-25k a day. So, yeah... just before Black Friday, I exchanged enough Dil to have 8-9k zen on hand. And I exchanged another couple hundred K Dil a couple days ago, in anticipation of a new lockbox & a key sale. Would I rather be exchanging at the 90 rate of a couple years ago? Sure. But 275-290 isn't going to panic me. /shrug
One of my biggest complaints about Dilithium when putting it into fleet projects is the 1:1 ratio of dilithium to fleet creds. It seems a little ridiculous! Something that costs 1200 ECs gets 8-12 fleet credits yet 1 dilithium gives you 1 credit. For me as a very casual player with way too many toons who is in a fleet of roughly 4 who are also very casual players getting dilithium for rep gear is a bit of a pain so dumping thousands into a fleet project just,,,, doesn't happen. On the other hand if I got say 25 fleet creds per dilithium I would be more willing to give to fleet projects because it would make it that much easier to get fleet gear.
Perhaps adding better/new types of gear to the dilithum store and/or fleet stores would be a way to reign in the perceived over abundance of dilithium.
Since we are on the subject,, I personally would like to see a character dilithium bank tab added to the account bank. We can do it with Ec's already,, so why not dilithium. I have a couple toons with 400k+ and several toons with just over 100k.. if I could dump ALL of my toons dilithium into ONE place and see the bigger number I would be more likely to spend that on things I otherwise wouldn't/couldn't.
Just my two EC's on that.
*************************** Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon Fighting 5th Attack Squadron The Devils Henchman
... Another would be to add a direct conversion system for players to spend EC/Dil/Zen at a set rate- which PWE/C would determine so that it keeps things balanced- players then could use whatever flavor of currency they wished to make C-Store purchases provided they have the currency on-hand...
+! for that, EC to Ore to Refined Ore to ZEN at a Cryptic managed rate.
Of course if they did do that ZEN buyers would probably walk away, and Cryptic couldn't very well supply their own ZEN to the market cause then they get no income.... and they would have to balance the entire games currency to ore; which is totally messed up, I.E. Rep items "Adapted MACO Positron Deflector Array = 34k Refined Ore = 14,934 EC vs "Assimilated Deflector Array = 32,500 Refined Ore = 32,584 EC. So at one price its 2.2 EC to 1 Refined Ore, in the other its .99 EX to 1 Refined Ore.
That has to be corrected before Cryptic even thinks of stepping in to balance the exchange.
One of my biggest complaints about Dilithium when putting it into fleet projects is the 1:1 ratio of dilithium to fleet creds. It seems a little ridiculous! Something that costs 1200 ECs gets 8-12 fleet credits yet 1 dilithium gives you 1 credit. For me as a very casual player with way too many toons who is in a fleet of roughly 4 who are also very casual players getting dilithium for rep gear is a bit of a pain so dumping thousands into a fleet project just,,,, doesn't happen. On the other hand if I got say 25 fleet creds per dilithium I would be more willing to give to fleet projects because it would make it that much easier to get fleet gear.
Perhaps adding better/new types of gear to the dilithum store and/or fleet stores would be a way to reign in the perceived over abundance of dilithium.
Since we are on the subject,, I personally would like to see a character dilithium bank tab added to the account bank. We can do it with Ec's already,, so why not dilithium. I have a couple toons with 400k+ and several toons with just over 100k.. if I could dump ALL of my toons dilithium into ONE place and see the bigger number I would be more likely to spend that on things I otherwise wouldn't/couldn't.
Just my two EC's on that.
This is an example of why there's a problem, the dilithium just isnt worth anything appart from buying T6 ships and lockbox keys.
If the return rate on fleet projects was even doubled it would make people be more willing to dump excess dil there rather than hoard it. That would aid a lot of fleets and supply ample FC's for players to use (getting FC's in big fleets can be a nightmare!).
Add in alternative things to spend the dil on and the problem goes away, provided there's always something to drop the stuff on (be it crafting, fleets, who knows what else).
The annoying thing is dilithium and ec are becoming so common now, you can get 8-10k dilithium from the dyson BZ every day and you can get over 100-150k ec from admiralty and if you are fast enough in sector space you can get under 1.5 mil ec from tour the galaxy or you can get big bucks by selling some good gear you got from loot drops, mission rewards, crafting, boffs, etc
That's the thing, the value of in-game currency is descending rapidly and it requires more grinding to keep up with this lowered value which means more grinding. These exchange kings with billions of ec and maxed out on dilithium are fine with this because they can get more of this money to I guess just have around.
Since I detest grinding I don't usually have much dilithium or ec lying around and whenever I raise some in large amounts its gone after a short time. This game is far too grindy and needs to change that can benefit all kinds of players
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Prices are really not that bad. There is not much difference between 240 and 290 tbh. Plus side, I am getting a little bit more DIL for the thousands of ZEN that I buy every month.
Comments
FINALLY, some one who gets the picture.. "Dil" is NOT the problem. The Dil/Zen Exchange is working the way it was designed to do and bolster the Cryptic/PWE Market. In fact, it IS - Working As Intended.
Working so well in fact, IMHO, it's the ONE and ONLY "feature" of the game that has an @ 99.3% bugless rate - Dil Exchange
Which is more important to the general player ? Being able to play the game in a steady infrastructure, minimal "buggy" environment, and stuff that actually works when it supposed to, or play the market ??
Warning, this may get long !!!! But should prove an interesting read !!
Have you ever wondered WHY there are only two (2) ways to buy Zen ?? Either REAL LIFE Money or via the Dil Exchange.
Why not with Energy Credits (EC) ?? Well, Energy Credits:
(1) Do ABSOLUTELY SQUAT for the metrics. Grinding Dilithium does;
(2) Have absolute ZERO value except at the exchange or Vendors. Can't use EC in the c-Store. now referred to as the Zen-Store;
(3) "I can buy Keys with EC" you say. Who cares. Those keys cost ZEN and the Zen was paid for in Real World money. That is, if you want to believe those couple million Zen for sale were all paid for to begin with.
Warning - Possible Reality Check Follows:
(1) Dil is funny-"Monopoly"- in-game money; ZEN is real life Money to Cryptic/PWE; A known fact when they Converted
(2) ZEN value; real or imagined, is what drives the market, not Dil. The amount of available Dil has no bearing in/on the exchange rate;
(3) Lock Box Keys ?? Has any one noticed the Exchange price for Keys has been stagnant for what a year ?? @4mill and holding; Surely they aren't driving the market !!
(4) Not Enough Dil Sinks ?? I suggest you talk to Fleets and Armada's.. Dilithium remains the NUMBER ONE ITEM NEEDED for donations;
(5) R&D - have too much Dil on your hands ??.. Craft some stuff.. It will quickly disappear;
(6) Upgrades.. Yep another great way to diminish the amount of dil in your "Assets" locker;
(7) Daily Refinement Cap - Folks scream it's too low.. Need to raise it.. More available dil means a quicker run to 500 and beyond !! More available Dil equals a higher cost per Zen, not a lowered exchange ratio.
Now, IMHO, Why ??
(1) Who and WHY pay 750 Million for a half-TRIBBLE ship ?? Answer - 'Cause it's cheaper than the cost of keys and the odds of getting one in a lock box. And, who/what drives those odds ?? Certainly NOT the Dil Exchange;
(2) Admiralty System - Yep. I like it.. Another source of DIL for my Fleet/Armada. **BUT** Shipyard "Dilithium" cost ships were reduced by what 50% ?? Folks that wanted those ships, may not have had the Dil on hand, or had the daily Cap..
(3) Refinement Cap - Want to beat it ?? So, Let's buy some ZEN, jack the price a little at a time, then WHAM.. Sell 3,000 Zen and have 900,000 Dil with NO DAILY REFINEMENT CAP. Now I can epeen my brag with 150 ships in Admiralty;
(4) FLEETS/ARMADA's - Yes folks.. They play the market. Some of those Upgrades cost 2 MILLION Dilithium; Upgrading the Spire (3 steps total) to T2 costs over 2 Million Dil. And why do they play the Market ?? Members aren't throwing Dil at the Projects. So. Fleets/Armada's are NOT the sink some of you think they are;
(5) Zen Ship Bundles, One-of-a-Kind c-Store, Ship Sales, cStore sales in General - And how do you "buy from the cStore ?? Why with Zen of course. This is totally the way it's supposed to work for Cryptic. ZEN equals Real World Money to Cryptic;
And my Final "IMHO" on why the exchange rate will ONLY keep rising - Players
Players who: (1) Want it Now; (2) Take full advantage of the "gotta-have-it-now" folks; (3) fail to realize/understand the "real" in-game money; and finally (4) Good ol' plain-in-your-face greed.
Dilithium Exchange - Working As Intended.... :O)
tyvm
Wacky things, fun things, things that go beep boop
Or god forbid they actually add more special exclusive items to that store...
They've not really been stagnant for the whole period.
you should quit while you are behind.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983
*really starting to hate this quote system on this forum*
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Agreed, they bumped up ways to get dill but not the cap. Sadly, I don't think Cryptic will ever bump up the cap...
or people being... well people will continue to hoard and compain their not getting enough and still not donate to projects . oh that not getting into what it'll do to the dil/zen exchange.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
That would lower the value of Dilithium even more!
We need ways to make Dilithium harder to get, which would then raise it's value against Zen..
That would suck up a decent amount without it even going near the exchange.
My preferred idea would be add to the crafting system the ability to pick your mods for items but make it cost a massive amount of dilithium for the benefit of doing so.
What you're saying is basically make dil harder to get and will lower the ratio, yes but this isn't a fix - the optimal worth of zen would be the same for a average person, twice less dil farmed twice less zen cost = zen cost stays the same. Only ones benefitting from your fix would be hoarders, those that werent donating to fleet projects but Just saved Massive ammounts of dil. Irony is If theyd release loads at the same time they would crash the dil exchange even further since theyd be the only ones with dil to buy for increasing prices and average players would struggle producing dil. Think about it. As i Said in another thread we NEED dil to zen cap.
The word "Stagnant" may not have been the best word to use. Averaged would have been better. If you "average" the price over the year, my statement remains "Valid" at "about" 4 mil and holding. 'nuff said...
More and more people complain about the Dil Cap. Increasing the cap will only bring more dil to the exchange for more Zen, to buy More Keys, to sell on the exchange, or take pot-shots at the Lock Box Lottery/gambling geni.
People with "tons of dil sitting around" are obviously NOT donating it to fleet projects. Across my 9 toons I have over 1million Dil on 3, and at leat 600k on the rest, and after 5 years of playing, I keep about 5K unrefined on each toon. All 9 of my toons are in Fleets, and they all have over 1.5mil Fleet credits.
Want Zen, then whip out the REAL MONEY.. Don't want to, or your folks won't let you spend Real Money, then Dil is the only alternative. IMHO, the ONLY reason dil has any "perceived" value, is that it is the ONLY OTHER way, besides REAL MONEY, to buy Zen. And the "percieived" value of ZEN is based on what people will pay.
The price in real money for ZEN has not changed, and there are always Sales as well. As the exchange rate continues to creep up, one day, it WILL hit a point where it's cheaper to BUY ZEN with real money than it is using Dil..
Dilithium Exchange - Working as Intended....
I have seen the Dill exchange be as low 98 and high as 404 since I have been playing What goes on sale makes dil exchange go up. Also I do think at times STO put up ZEN to drive it back down
I am doing the same I think 200 per zen is reasonable.
Please explain the logic behind this 200.
Thank you.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
One problem is that since the level cap was raised, the ship system wasn't revised- before Admiral (U/L Admiral) you had more choice in how to obtain ships aside from the token- such as Dil. After which, you'd then have to use Zen or a combo of Fleet Credits/Modules which also depend on provisioning in Fleets.
One solution would be to update the Ship system so that you could obtain ships with Dilithium would the need for Zen conversion or purchasing Fleet Modules, for ships T5+ (T6, T7, etc.) which would provide yet another sink above Admiral. I highly doubt PWE/C will do this though, as it would compete with their direct Zen purchases with real world money. (selling T6 ships, yada yada)
Another would be to add a direct conversion system for players to spend EC/Dil/Zen at a set rate- which PWE/C would determine so that it keeps things balanced- players then could use whatever flavor of currency they wished to make C-Store purchases provided they have the currency on-hand.
Are these perfect solutions? No- but I'm open to alternative suggestions that don't favor certain players over others. I've read a lot of suggestions regarding the cap increase/constraint, setting the dil exchange at higher/lower values, etc. and it seems it shifts the balance from one end of the spectrum to the other- not really a balanced way to resolve the issue. No matter what, at the end of the day- if your suggestion is going to TRIBBLE someone else over in favor of yourself or others, you're going to get debates and arguments. When you think of a solution, consider all of the variables- not just the ones you want to see.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
The points you make are for the most part descriptive ('I know how things work'), not predictive ('this is why x relates to y and this is how I propose things really work because of z').
For example, it is obvious increasing Dil cap will "only bring more dil to the exchange" but who cares what people are able to do with it - most already know unless they are completely new to the game. Prediction and understanding would make a point: it would drive the Dil-Ex much higher overnight.
Many fail to grasp this because they only think in personal short-term gains: they have more dilithium meaning they can cash in more zen for a few days before the inevitable happens: their Dil is worthless since supply is flooding in by every single player who ever reaches their daily cap.
The price of real money for Zen could have changed based on what the US currency is doing versus those of other countries. US currency went up, so that buying Zen in Canada for example will be very costly now vs before. A lifetime membership which cannot be acquired with prepaid cards (for however long even those will be around), meaning fewer will buy LTS and help drive the Dil-Ex down a tiny bit with their 'free' monthly 500 Z should they use it for some quick Dil.
Zen is the general currency, Dil is transferable partly (it gets bound to STO as soon as it enters exchange from my understanding) and gets devalued as we see happening now, and Dil->EC is the 3rd lockdown. EC still relates to Zen because you can do things with EC or Dil to prevent needing to use Zen in the first place. You can get Dil with EC, with the simplest example being buying contraband and turning it in without flying around to collect it.
Zen only exists because someone bought it (or indirectly bought it and placed it on exchange with their LTS monthly stipend), so you cannot "buy" it through the Dil-Ex, only convert virtual currency for Cash that's been converted - also made virtual - into STO-Bound Zen.
About Dil Sinks, I agree, they don't work very well, which is why my predicted solution is to drastically decrease the amount of Dil being rewarded from all sources. It will take at least a year, but the overall decreased Dil supply combined with the immediate perception of the now increased value of Dil from new players means more Zen will be on the market, driving prices down.
To see evidence of this, examine the Dil-Ex charts thanks to Reddit users who also pointed out the most drastic increase in Dil-Ex was when sector patrols were also given Dil payouts. I specifically remember the exact time when L60 cap and spec trees were introduced, it was a choice between getting Dil or XP at good rates, until that too changed.
More evidence of increased flood of Dil? Cryptic even helped us turn in 15 rep marks to Dil every hour by setting sliders to max, which makes it much more convenient. Before that they also added the ability to turn in more rep marks and special rep items (Ex. bnp) into Dil. Another major flood of Dil.
Zen has also increased in value because of the increased costs of ships themselves. 500 Zen, or upgrade tokens, and +100 lobi are a significant and sudden jump for items that are definitely more powerful and fun to use, and which bring in game aspects never before seen in any older tiers (starship traits, specialty ship abilities, specialty/hybrid specialty boff seatings, new ship sub-classes (science dreadnought, 5/1 raider, battle cloaking fed C-store ship)).
Also agree about why ships cost so much: because of Cryptic's decision to set the drop rates as low as they are for lockbox items and certain other in-game items (ex. Purple Rom SRO Boffs). They even introduced the 'Vonph model lockbox' 2 for 1, which I predict will be in effect for the next coming lockbox, which they specifically warn will have very low drop rates indirectly for the highest prized item. It is by design that there's an average set amount of lobi dropping from each box, and the set price of lobi items which too were increased.
Those who say the Dil-Ex it is 'player driven' conveniently forget that the entire environment is pre-set, from how much time it takes to do a mission, to what its reward is, to what the cost of C-store items are set at, to when sales happen, all 'calibrated' for maximum profit and player retention based on how other MMOs perform. "Greed" isn't an accurate term either to describe the Dil-Ex behaviour, since everyone naturally wants to maximize what they get (economics). It isn't a charity to be giving people stuff because they're in need where greed would be taking it all for yourself and giving nothing - it's an agreement and balance point that should benefit everyone (buyers and sellers) provided it is a free market and that there's sufficient people buying Zen and playing (acquiring Dil).
Right now, that's not happening given how much Dil has been and continues to be rewarded from everything, and I agree, when the market hits 500 cap, Zen will begin to vanish from there altogether while ref Dil just keeps on stockpiling.
- spec points
- more character slots
- respeccs
- Temporary admirality Ships for hire
- Temporary Doffs for hire
- Temporary RnD XP boost.
- Direct Rnd XP
- you can bascially use dilithium as a major time sink alleviation tool for palyers who have enough and just want to do other stuff for the giggles.
I already addressed the lack of dilithium contributions to fleets in a previous thread, my hypothesis is that the rewards totaly suck so the fleet credit payout needs to upped considerably to help. Adjustments need to be made to rebalance dilithium cost and reward payout. More sinks won't fix the issue it is the issue.
As it stands now, to get a 3000 Zen ship, that's 127 Days of 8k max conversions.
like.... playable ARGO on every map that you need to rebuy with every use? Or a horse? Or jetpacks that work everywhere? Or combat pets?
Well, in Neverwinter they raised the daily refinement cap from 24k to 36k. It didn't do a thing to the zen exchange. It was right below 400 before the change and it's still there.
What really brought down from being constantly at 500 there was a massive nerf to leadership (which is a mix between admiralty and doffing). I don't want them nerf anything instead add dil only gadgets.
I always find these "the sky is falling!" exchange threads amusing. When I started playing, the rate had been over 300 for a while, and was heading down. And the forum was full of "OMG, game economy is DOOMED!" threads.... because the exchange was below 300. And "everyone knew" that the rate had to stay over 300, so that the Big Money Men would consider it worthwhile to buy zen, exchange it for Dil, and use that Dil to single-handedly support their fleet Dil demands. Why, if the rate dropped below 300, the whales would stop putting cash into the game, and STO would go out of business! PANIC!
<insert Picard facepalm here>
But yeah, these "OMG, exchange going up! It's above 150/200/etc! PANIC!" threads are just as funny as those old threads were.
----
It'd be nice to see some full statistics - not just forum dwellers bragging about how much unrefined they have sitting around - on Dil earning across the playerbase. I remember seeing comments about how a majority of players never hit the cap (usually in "up the refine limit!" threads), but that was awhile back.
I only know about me, personally. Outside of a few Dil weekends, when I had lots of Mining Claims lying around, or the 3 days after finishing a rep/hitting rank 10 on Klingon Admiralty, I've never had a character with excess unrefined Dil. I don't cap out daily. Of course, I'm not playing hours a day every day anymore. What I do have is 8 characters who, on one daily run of doffs & admiralty, manage in the 2-4k range. So I can get 15-20-25k a day. So, yeah... just before Black Friday, I exchanged enough Dil to have 8-9k zen on hand. And I exchanged another couple hundred K Dil a couple days ago, in anticipation of a new lockbox & a key sale. Would I rather be exchanging at the 90 rate of a couple years ago? Sure. But 275-290 isn't going to panic me. /shrug
Perhaps adding better/new types of gear to the dilithum store and/or fleet stores would be a way to reign in the perceived over abundance of dilithium.
Since we are on the subject,, I personally would like to see a character dilithium bank tab added to the account bank. We can do it with Ec's already,, so why not dilithium. I have a couple toons with 400k+ and several toons with just over 100k.. if I could dump ALL of my toons dilithium into ONE place and see the bigger number I would be more likely to spend that on things I otherwise wouldn't/couldn't.
Just my two EC's on that.
Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon
Fighting 5th Attack Squadron
The Devils Henchman
+! for that, EC to Ore to Refined Ore to ZEN at a Cryptic managed rate.
Of course if they did do that ZEN buyers would probably walk away, and Cryptic couldn't very well supply their own ZEN to the market cause then they get no income.... and they would have to balance the entire games currency to ore; which is totally messed up, I.E. Rep items "Adapted MACO Positron Deflector Array = 34k Refined Ore = 14,934 EC vs "Assimilated Deflector Array = 32,500 Refined Ore = 32,584 EC. So at one price its 2.2 EC to 1 Refined Ore, in the other its .99 EX to 1 Refined Ore.
That has to be corrected before Cryptic even thinks of stepping in to balance the exchange.
This is an example of why there's a problem, the dilithium just isnt worth anything appart from buying T6 ships and lockbox keys.
If the return rate on fleet projects was even doubled it would make people be more willing to dump excess dil there rather than hoard it. That would aid a lot of fleets and supply ample FC's for players to use (getting FC's in big fleets can be a nightmare!).
Add in alternative things to spend the dil on and the problem goes away, provided there's always something to drop the stuff on (be it crafting, fleets, who knows what else).
That's the thing, the value of in-game currency is descending rapidly and it requires more grinding to keep up with this lowered value which means more grinding. These exchange kings with billions of ec and maxed out on dilithium are fine with this because they can get more of this money to I guess just have around.
Since I detest grinding I don't usually have much dilithium or ec lying around and whenever I raise some in large amounts its gone after a short time. This game is far too grindy and needs to change that can benefit all kinds of players
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas