Never watched much of STC, it was cool n all but didnt work for me. I kinda expected a little something from Renegades tho considering there are more parallels between Axanar and Renegades than STC and Axanar. I don't expect them to wade in supporting either side or anything but more a 'we're still on course, no lawsuits yet'
I guess they might feel they don't need to say anything at all, and might feel that any commentary at all could be taken as taking sides, which is a double-edged sword: They won't want to alienate themselves with CBS/Paramount, but equally, the convention circuit's a pretty small one, so they likely wouldn't want to say something which may offend folks they're quite likely to run into In the Wild, which could make things awkward when folks mostly go to conventions to have a good time (or if you're really messed up in the head, to shoot Claudia Christian... >_< )
The only comment from the 'Renegades' production staff of late is that Melinda Snodgrass withdrew the script she had written for them (Here's a link to what she said on her site when she accept the 'job' to do a script): http://melindasnodgrass.com/star-trek-renegades
They have stated they have a backup script they are going to use for their concluding episode (assuming they don't get served a C&D at some point.)
Thanks for sharing, her thoughts rather mirror my own that Beyond and the new series are factors, and that CBS/Paramount's tollerance of other projects seriously weakens their case against Axanar... As I said upthread, I can see Alec Peters potentially beating this suit for that reason. CBS/Paramount may have 'the letter of the law' on their side, but not the spirit of it, and as Ms Snodgrass noted, their 'hands are dirty'...
that's not really what she said..... she didn't say anything that even sounded like she thought Peters has a prayer of winning. What she did say is that she was concerned that the lawyers would decide that all of them had to go. Thus she was going to distance herself from the project until the case is resolved.
I never said that she said that at all, please don't start strawmanning :-\ I said that I think Alec Peters has a chance of winning. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I said her thoughts mirror my own that Beyond and the new series are factors. She also said:
As it is they have an "unclean hands" issue because they allowed the fan productions to go forward for so many years without reacting. Now that they are taking notice they will have to take notice across the board -- no exceptions. That's my best prediction based on training and education.
That is a direct copy of her words. What I am saying, is that this 'unclean hands' issue -- because they have allowed fan productions to go forward without reacting -- is going to affect their case. As I said in my immediately preceding post... The lawsuit focusses on use of Star Trek IP (not profits made, but the use of Star Trek IP) There are historical cases of where they have tolerated and even supported fan productions. The challenge they will face in court is not solely going to be the simple matter of proving that Axanar uses Star Trek IP, but they are going to have to prove that it was indeed i) unauthorised, and ii) explain why they care now, and thus iii) why should the judge care that they care now and rule in their favor...
Um, it's NOT going to affect the CBS/Paramount case at all. Why? CBS/Paramount AREN'T claiming or suing about Trademark infringement - NOTHING about Star Trek Trademarks are mentioned in their filing. Trademarks DO require 'vigorous defense' or they can be declared unenforceable and enter the public domain. The CBS/Paramount lawsuit filing only mentions copyright infringement (and seeks an injunction and damages); but copyright enforcement can be selective, with no prejudice (IE you can't loose a copyright due to 'non-vigorous defense'.)
Problem is - If Axanar tries to bring the trademark issue up as some sort of defense, it won't fly and copyright and trademark are different under the law. What they could do is file their own suit vs CBS/Paramount asking that the Star Trek trademarks be found unenforceable (which Axanar hasn't done); and filing and pursuing such a lawsuit would cost A LOT of money (which they do not have (believe me, if they tried to use any of the crowdfund money to file and pay for such a lawsuit, they WOULD probably be facing fraud charges as that's NOT what the money was pledged for. CBS legal is being very careful and smart as to how they are going after Axanar. Also, just because CBS/Paramount haven't vigorously defended the Star Trek trademarks (by ignoring the larger more 'professional' fan groups); such a case wouldn't be a slam dunk as Axanar would also have to show CBS/Paramount haven't been doing anything commercially/publically with the trademarks - and with two recent films (and a third being released this year from Paramount); and the continued merchandising/selling of TNG (and TOS) syndication packages; not to mention the DVD/Blu-Ray sets; the availability of Star Trek on Hulu and Netflix, etc; including development of a new series for 2017; and hell, even the 'Star Trek Online' MMO. CBS HAS been making liberal use of Star Trek trademarks. Again, not saying a case couldn't be made in this area; but Judges are loath to just strip trademarks unless all the criteria have been met. But again, it would have to be a separate suit filed by Axanar Productions against CBS/Paramount. It has zero relevance in a copyright infringement case (which is probably why CBS went that route); as it's the easiest for them to prevail on. Since Axanar has publically (via Youtube and their Axanar website and blogs) provided ALL the evidence CBS needs to prevail. The fact the heads of Axanar also won't shut up; and continually make conflicting statements, just helps CBS/Paramount more in their copyright infringement claim too.
Do you suffer from mental insufficiency, or do you just 'make TRIBBLE up' in the hope that others have no idea what they're talking about, in the hope of trying to score a point? Because by saying that, you are seriously embarassing yourself. This is the CBS/Paramount lawsuit.
NATURE OF THE ACTION: Point 2 (page 2)
Defendants have made a short film entitled Star Trek:Prelude to Axanar ("Prelude to Axanar"), and are in the process of producing a film called Axanar (the "Axanar motion picture") (collectively, the "Axanar Works"). The Axanar works infringe Plaintiff's works by using innumerable copyrighted elements of Star Trek, including its settings, characters, species and themes. The Axanar Works are intended to be professional quality productions that, by Defendants' own admission, unabashedly takes Paramounts and CBS's intellectual property and aim to "look and feel like a true Star Trek movie." On information and belief, Defendants have raised over $1 million so far to produce these works, including building out a studio and hiring actors, set designers and costume designers. The Axanar Works are substantially similar to, and unauthorized derivative works of, Plaintiffs' Star Trek television series and movies, in contravention of the copyright laws of the United States.
That specifically mentions intellectual property, and copyright laws. However you want to try to spin it, trademark, intellectual property, copyright, whatever, the point is, 'what Axanar Productions are doing', other production companies have 'done before' without being sued by CBS/Paramount, and in one instance (which I proved to you, and you never had the courtesy to acknowledge that I was right) CBS actively supported against YouTube.
So.
CBS/Paramount are trying to sue Axanar Productions for 'doing something' which they have tolerated in the past. It might be CSB/Paramount's prerogative to only sue when they want to, but the fact that they did not sue in past instances means, as Melinda Snodgrass pointed out, they have 'unclean hands', meaning that their position is significantly weakened. If, and this is a Big If, Alec Peters can produce proof that Axanar was, like those other productions, 'being tolerated', then it nullifies the very basis of CBS/Paramount's lawsuit.
I have said all along, that I believe that CBS/Paramount are actually suing due to Beyond and the new series coming out and fear of a lack of take up on those projects due to Axanar (Melinda Snodgrass also clearly states
Anyway, given the Star Trek activity that's occurring -- new movie this year, new series in 2017 -- the studio and network felt they had to move against the fan based productions.
) but suing someone because they are 'scared of the competition' would be laughed out of court, so they have instead gone down the infringement route, because that is something more protected by law, and which they can easily prove -- if they had not already given prior consent to the project, even if with caveats and guidelines... This is not a true lawsuit in the sense of where Marvin Gaye's family sued Robin Thicke over infringement of musical content, this is (I believe) a case of them deciding to sue because it will stall/derail Axanar, allowing them to release Beyond and the new series and rake in the coin for it, and have simply chosen the legal option which most closely fits (but which is actually a pretty poor fit, due to the above-mentioned 'unclean hands' issue)
OK, I thnk and this is MY OWN OPINION !!!!!!!!! That CBS/Paramount should shut down ALL FAN PRODUCTION sites. Until a more finalized and clear cut rules and guidelines are put out and in place by CBS/Paramount. On what the certain guidelines are for the following. (IE. Audio Dramas, Web-series and Fan Films). With clear cut rules on fan/crowdfunding and what is the max amount that came be raised. With those who are given the greenlight to make their project and if need be an on-site CBS/Paramount Lasion officer to work out unexpected problems that might happen during production.
I know, I know, CBS/Paramount doesn't have to do this. With the new clear cut guidelines to Fan Productions. But they really have no choice. Or else somebody is going to put together a well though out Idea and will take on in a head to head battle with CBS/Paramount to bring this problem of working in somebody else sandbox to a head.
Where somebody working out of their own converted Garage (IE Lexington and Hidden Frontiers). Is quietly able to fly right under CBS/Paramount copyright's radar to somebody who make a nova type explosion with their Fan Production (IE New Voyages and Continues). To someone who creates a supernova explosion (IE AXANAR and Renegades).
CBS/Paramount decided to use a 14lbs sludgehammer on ANAXAR. Now they have to deal with to shockwaves in the form of public opinion on Fair Usage, Copyrights and Copyright Laws in the USA.
Also can Star Trek Beyond and their upcoming Star Trek series. Which will only air on CBS All Access streaming. Survive the fan blow back with the most powerful weapons in a fan's arsenal. Their wallet and their viewing time.
Both could take serious damage because of this Lawsuit. I really hope they though this through. Because Star Trek Fan's Public and Private Opinion's on how CBS/Paramount has handled the Star Trek Legacy is very mixed (IN MY OWN OPINION) and I don't think they ever totally fade away. CBS/Paramount's Public Opinion with Star Trek Fan's. Could look like Rocky at the end of the first Rocky movie
Look at all the refs. To the Fundraising Project done to give Enterprise a 5th season and CBS/Paramount reply to the 100,000 dollars raised. To see the beating they took then.
OK, I thnk and this is MY OWN OPINION !!!!!!!!! That CBS/Paramount should shut down ALL FAN PRODUCTION sites. Until a more finalized and clear cut rules and guidelines are put out and in place by CBS/Paramount. On what the certain guidelines are for the following. (IE. Audio Dramas, Web-series and Fan Films). With clear cut rules on fan/crowdfunding and what is the max amount that came be raised. With those who are given the greenlight to make their project and if need be an on-site CBS/Paramount Lasion officer to work out unexpected problems that might happen during production.
I know, I know, CBS/Paramount doesn't have to do this. With the new clear cut guidelines to Fan Productions. But they really have no choice. Or else somebody is going to put together a well though out Idea and will take on in a head to head battle with CBS/Paramount to bring this problem of working in somebody else sandbox to a head.
Where somebody working out of their own converted Garage (IE Lexington and Hidden Frontiers). Is quietly able to fly right under CBS/Paramount copyright's radar to somebody who make a nova type explosion with their Fan Production (IE New Voyages and Continues). To someone who creates a supernova explosion (IE AXANAR and Renegades).
CBS/Paramount decided to use a 14lbs sludgehammer on ANAXAR. Now they have to deal with to shockwaves in the form of public opinion on Fair Usage, Copyrights and Copyright Laws in the USA.
Also can Star Trek Beyond and their upcoming Star Trek series. Which will only air on CBS All Access streaming. Survive the fan blow back with the most powerful weapons in a fan's arsenal. Their wallet and their viewing time.
Both could take serious damage because of this Lawsuit. I really hope they though this through. Because Star Trek Fan's Public and Private Opinion's on how CBS/Paramount has handled the Star Trek Legacy is very mixed (IN MY OWN OPINION) and I don't think they ever totally fade away. CBS/Paramount's Public Opinion with Star Trek Fan's. Could look like Rocky at the end of the first Rocky movie
Look at all the refs. To the Fundraising Project done to give Enterprise a 5th season and CBS/Paramount reply to the 100,000 dollars raised. To see the beating they took then.
I completely agree with you. Well, I don't think CBS/Paramount should shut down all productions permanently but if they were to issue production guidelines and have a dedicated CBS/Paramount point of contact to field questions, that would certainly be a reasonable course of action... And absolutely, fans opinions of CBS/Paramount are very divided. I think you're absolutely spot on with your Rocky analogy... They might win (if they didn't give consent to the project) but they'll be a mess in terms of publicity and it will be an extremely pyrrhic victory...
OK, I thnk and this is MY OWN OPINION !!!!!!!!! That CBS/Paramount should shut down ALL FAN PRODUCTION sites. Until a more finalized and clear cut rules and guidelines are put out and in place by CBS/Paramount. On what the certain guidelines are for the following. (IE. Audio Dramas, Web-series and Fan Films). With clear cut rules on fan/crowdfunding and what is the max amount that came be raised. With those who are given the greenlight to make their project and if need be an on-site CBS/Paramount Lasion officer to work out unexpected problems that might happen during production.
I know, I know, CBS/Paramount doesn't have to do this. With the new clear cut guidelines to Fan Productions. But they really have no choice. Or else somebody is going to put together a well though out Idea and will take on in a head to head battle with CBS/Paramount to bring this problem of working in somebody else sandbox to a head.
I suspect that a different approach could be equally effective. Write a set of rules then tell people to follow them or else...
OK, I thnk and this is MY OWN OPINION !!!!!!!!! That CBS/Paramount should shut down ALL FAN PRODUCTION sites. Until a more finalized and clear cut rules and guidelines are put out and in place by CBS/Paramount. On what the certain guidelines are for the following. (IE. Audio Dramas, Web-series and Fan Films). With clear cut rules on fan/crowdfunding and what is the max amount that came be raised. With those who are given the greenlight to make their project and if need be an on-site CBS/Paramount Lasion officer to work out unexpected problems that might happen during production.
I know, I know, CBS/Paramount doesn't have to do this. With the new clear cut guidelines to Fan Productions. But they really have no choice. Or else somebody is going to put together a well though out Idea and will take on in a head to head battle with CBS/Paramount to bring this problem of working in somebody else sandbox to a head.
I suspect that a different approach could be equally effective. Write a set of rules then tell people to follow them or else...
Exactly... When writing to Pocket Books about Star Trek submissions, I was given a set of guidelines which a story couldn't breach. It wouldn't be hard for CBS/Paramount to issue guidelines to people who request them
Never watched much of STC, it was cool n all but didnt work for me. I kinda expected a little something from Renegades tho considering there are more parallels between Axanar and Renegades than STC and Axanar. I don't expect them to wade in supporting either side or anything but more a 'we're still on course, no lawsuits yet'
I guess they might feel they don't need to say anything at all, and might feel that any commentary at all could be taken as taking sides, which is a double-edged sword: They won't want to alienate themselves with CBS/Paramount, but equally, the convention circuit's a pretty small one, so they likely wouldn't want to say something which may offend folks they're quite likely to run into In the Wild, which could make things awkward when folks mostly go to conventions to have a good time (or if you're really messed up in the head, to shoot Claudia Christian... >_< )
The only comment from the 'Renegades' production staff of late is that Melinda Snodgrass withdrew the script she had written for them (Here's a link to what she said on her site when she accept the 'job' to do a script): http://melindasnodgrass.com/star-trek-renegades
They have stated they have a backup script they are going to use for their concluding episode (assuming they don't get served a C&D at some point.)
Thanks for sharing, her thoughts rather mirror my own that Beyond and the new series are factors, and that CBS/Paramount's tollerance of other projects seriously weakens their case against Axanar... As I said upthread, I can see Alec Peters potentially beating this suit for that reason. CBS/Paramount may have 'the letter of the law' on their side, but not the spirit of it, and as Ms Snodgrass noted, their 'hands are dirty'...
that's not really what she said..... she didn't say anything that even sounded like she thought Peters has a prayer of winning. What she did say is that she was concerned that the lawyers would decide that all of them had to go. Thus she was going to distance herself from the project until the case is resolved.
I never said that she said that at all, please don't start strawmanning :-\ I said that I think Alec Peters has a chance of winning. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I said her thoughts mirror my own that Beyond and the new series are factors. She also said:
As it is they have an "unclean hands" issue because they allowed the fan productions to go forward for so many years without reacting. Now that they are taking notice they will have to take notice across the board -- no exceptions. That's my best prediction based on training and education.
That is a direct copy of her words. What I am saying, is that this 'unclean hands' issue -- because they have allowed fan productions to go forward without reacting -- is going to affect their case. As I said in my immediately preceding post... The lawsuit focusses on use of Star Trek IP (not profits made, but the use of Star Trek IP) There are historical cases of where they have tolerated and even supported fan productions. The challenge they will face in court is not solely going to be the simple matter of proving that Axanar uses Star Trek IP, but they are going to have to prove that it was indeed i) unauthorised, and ii) explain why they care now, and thus iii) why should the judge care that they care now and rule in their favor...
Um, it's NOT going to affect the CBS/Paramount case at all. Why? CBS/Paramount AREN'T claiming or suing about Trademark infringement - NOTHING about Star Trek Trademarks are mentioned in their filing. Trademarks DO require 'vigorous defense' or they can be declared unenforceable and enter the public domain. The CBS/Paramount lawsuit filing only mentions copyright infringement (and seeks an injunction and damages); but copyright enforcement can be selective, with no prejudice (IE you can't loose a copyright due to 'non-vigorous defense'.)
Problem is - If Axanar tries to bring the trademark issue up as some sort of defense, it won't fly and copyright and trademark are different under the law. What they could do is file their own suit vs CBS/Paramount asking that the Star Trek trademarks be found unenforceable (which Axanar hasn't done); and filing and pursuing such a lawsuit would cost A LOT of money (which they do not have (believe me, if they tried to use any of the crowdfund money to file and pay for such a lawsuit, they WOULD probably be facing fraud charges as that's NOT what the money was pledged for. CBS legal is being very careful and smart as to how they are going after Axanar. Also, just because CBS/Paramount haven't vigorously defended the Star Trek trademarks (by ignoring the larger more 'professional' fan groups); such a case wouldn't be a slam dunk as Axanar would also have to show CBS/Paramount haven't been doing anything commercially/publically with the trademarks - and with two recent films (and a third being released this year from Paramount); and the continued merchandising/selling of TNG (and TOS) syndication packages; not to mention the DVD/Blu-Ray sets; the availability of Star Trek on Hulu and Netflix, etc; including development of a new series for 2017; and hell, even the 'Star Trek Online' MMO. CBS HAS been making liberal use of Star Trek trademarks. Again, not saying a case couldn't be made in this area; but Judges are loath to just strip trademarks unless all the criteria have been met. But again, it would have to be a separate suit filed by Axanar Productions against CBS/Paramount. It has zero relevance in a copyright infringement case (which is probably why CBS went that route); as it's the easiest for them to prevail on. Since Axanar has publically (via Youtube and their Axanar website and blogs) provided ALL the evidence CBS needs to prevail. The fact the heads of Axanar also won't shut up; and continually make conflicting statements, just helps CBS/Paramount more in their copyright infringement claim too.
Do you suffer from mental insufficiency, or do you just 'make TRIBBLE up' in the hope that others have no idea what they're talking about, in the hope of trying to score a point? Because by saying that, you are seriously embarassing yourself. This is the CBS/Paramount lawsuit.
NATURE OF THE ACTION: Point 2 (page 2)
Defendants have made a short film entitled Star Trek:Prelude to Axanar ("Prelude to Axanar"), and are in the process of producing a film called Axanar (the "Axanar motion picture") (collectively, the "Axanar Works"). The Axanar works infringe Plaintiff's works by using innumerable copyrighted elements of Star Trek, including its settings, characters, species and themes. The Axanar Works are intended to be professional quality productions that, by Defendants' own admission, unabashedly takes Paramounts and CBS's intellectual property and aim to "look and feel like a true Star Trek movie." On information and belief, Defendants have raised over $1 million so far to produce these works, including building out a studio and hiring actors, set designers and costume designers. The Axanar Works are substantially similar to, and unauthorized derivative works of, Plaintiffs' Star Trek television series and movies, in contravention of the copyright laws of the United States.
That specifically mentions intellectual property, and copyright laws. However you want to try to spin it, trademark, intellectual property, copyright, whatever, the point is, 'what Axanar Productions are doing', other production companies have 'done before' without being sued by CBS/Paramount, and in one instance (which I proved to you, and you never had the courtesy to acknowledge that I was right) CBS actively supported against YouTube.
So.
CBS/Paramount are trying to sue Axanar Productions for 'doing something' which they have tolerated in the past. It might be CSB/Paramount's prerogative to only sue when they want to, but the fact that they did not sue in past instances means, as Melinda Snodgrass pointed out, they have 'unclean hands', meaning that their position is significantly weakened. If, and this is a Big If, Alec Peters can produce proof that Axanar was, like those other productions, 'being tolerated', then it nullifies the very basis of CBS/Paramount's lawsuit.
I have said all along, that I believe that CBS/Paramount are actually suing due to Beyond and the new series coming out and fear of a lack of take up on those projects due to Axanar (Melinda Snodgrass also clearly states
Anyway, given the Star Trek activity that's occurring -- new movie this year, new series in 2017 -- the studio and network felt they had to move against the fan based productions.
) but suing someone because they are 'scared of the competition' would be laughed out of court, so they have instead gone down the infringement route, because that is something more protected by law, and which they can easily prove -- if they had not already given prior consent to the project, even if with caveats and guidelines... This is not a true lawsuit in the sense of where Marvin Gaye's family sued Robin Thicke over infringement of musical content, this is (I believe) a case of them deciding to sue because it will stall/derail Axanar, allowing them to release Beyond and the new series and rake in the coin for it, and have simply chosen the legal option which most closely fits (but which is actually a pretty poor fit, due to the above-mentioned 'unclean hands' issue)
Um, no, I don't suffer from mental insufficiency' or 'make TRIBBLE up. I in fact work for a court so I do have some understanding of how the legal system works. and BTW in your quoting of parts of the lawsuit filing you quote, you left out:
NATURE OF THE ACTION
1. This is an action for copyright infringement arising out of Defendants’ unauthorized exploitation of Star Trek, one of the most successful entertainment franchises of all time.
^^^^
And that's the merits under which the case will be judged. You seem to believe that because (in addition to mentioning copyright) in the part you did quote:
quote]NATURE OF THE ACTION: Point 2 (page 2)
Defendants have made a short film entitled Star Trek:Prelude to Axanar ("Prelude to Axanar"), and are in the process of producing a film called Axanar (the "Axanar motion picture") (collectively, the "Axanar Works"). The Axanar works infringe Plaintiff's works by using innumerable copyrighted elements of Star Trek, including its settings, characters, species and themes. The Axanar Works are intended to be professional quality productions that, by Defendants' own admission, unabashedly takes Paramounts and CBS's intellectual property and aim to "look and feel like a true Star Trek movie." On information and belief, Defendants have raised over $1 million so far to produce these works, including building out a studio and hiring actors, set designers and costume designers. The Axanar Works are substantially similar to, and unauthorized derivative works of, Plaintiffs' Star Trek television series and movies, in contravention of the copyright laws of the United States.
[/quote]
since the term 'intellectual property' is used it opens up the case to include trademarks, etc:
That specifically mentions intellectual property, and copyright laws. However you want to try to spin it, trademark, intellectual property, copyright, whatever, the point is, 'what Axanar Productions are doing', other production companies have 'done before' without being sued by CBS/Paramount, and in one instance (which I proved to you, and you never had the courtesy to acknowledge that I was right) CBS actively supported against YouTube.
Except under civil copyright law, that isn't the case. Again, CBS/Paramount are suing for violation of copyright - period. As I stated Axanar COULD attempt to get the Star Trek trademarks declared unenforceable - but they'd have to file a countersuit. Under copyright lar Paramount/CBS is not required to act against every act of copyright infringement they are aware of - and the fact that they did or didn't sue anyone else for copyright infringement legally has zero bearing on the case they filed against Axanar. <--- That's how copyright law works. It's not something I 'made up'. Also, it's NOT up to CBS/Paramount to prove Axanar is unauthorized - again that's not how civil law works. Axanar has to prove they had authorization from CBS/Paramount (via contract, verbal agreement, etc. (although in the case of verbal agreement, Axanar has to get the party who they claim gave them such to testify he/she actually did - which is why it's always preferable to get something on paper and get it notarized.)
As for the situation you mentioned where CBS told YouTube to reinstate an STC episode; again, it has zero legal bearing on the merits of the Axanar case in any way as CBS/Paramount are not required to act against every copyright violation they are aware of - and failure to so prosecute doesn't legally affect their standing in any other copyright infringement case they choose to pursue.
Remember, In the United States we do not have a 'Justice system'; we have a 'Legal system'. Judges also 99% of the time follow the letter of the law. Why? Because when they don't their findings based on the 'spirit of the law' are usually overturned on appeal. There are rare times when something happens that hasn't been adjudicated before - and a Judge has the opportunity to make new case law - but there's nothing unique about the Axanar case. Still please feel free continue to claim I suffer from 'mental insufficiency' because I'm attempting to explain how aspects of the legal system works - and somehow you don't find that 'right' or 'fair' - and that because Paramount/CBS have 'unclean hands' Axanar will somehow be found not to have violated CBS/Paramount's Star Trek copyrighted material; and will be free to complete 'Axanar' - and sell coffee and other merchandise because CBS/Paramount decided not to file lawsuits against any of the other fan film groups. Of course if you really believe that, I think you'll be disappointed IF the case goes to trial (meaning an out of court settlement couldn't be reached between the parties involved.) Of course if you're somehow a legal savant; and think yourself able to defend Axanar in court - you should contact them and offer your services, as I hear they've been trying to engage a top IP law firm for the past week or so, with no success.
Sad thing is. They actually wouldn't be in trouble here if they planned to follow the guidelines STO has for Foundry stories, except in their plot outline for 'Unity', they state:
2412.... Commander Elizabeth Thompson is on her Way for the Last Steps to be the Captain of her own Ship, the U.S.S. Ares. She runs several Holosimulations to learn from the Legends of Starfleet's History
Which means they probably are going to try and create in game representations of 'legendary characters' like Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, et al. And such is forbidden under the STO Foundry TOS - so it'll be interesting to see if Cryptic weighs in in any fashion on the above project.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I already let trendy and gecko know about the sto fan film. . mainly down to I didn't think this was even allowed let alone what you said about making lookalikes.
also from that Facebook page they plan to use voice talent which again I'm thinking er no no.
Sad thing is. They actually wouldn't be in trouble here if they planned to follow the guidelines STO has for Foundry stories, except in their plot outline for 'Unity', they state:
2412.... Commander Elizabeth Thompson is on her Way for the Last Steps to be the Captain of her own Ship, the U.S.S. Ares. She runs several Holosimulations to learn from the Legends of Starfleet's History
Which means they probably are going to try and create in game representations of 'legendary characters' like Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, et al. And such is forbidden under the STO Foundry TOS - so it'll be interesting to see if Cryptic weighs in in any fashion on the above project.
I am... officially disgusted with Axanar's people now.... this is just sad and blatantly flies in the face of ToS
also is it just me or are the first 3 characters on their banner the exact same? White version, black version then change hair and remove goatee version
Sad thing is. They actually wouldn't be in trouble here if they planned to follow the guidelines STO has for Foundry stories, except in their plot outline for 'Unity', they state:
2412.... Commander Elizabeth Thompson is on her Way for the Last Steps to be the Captain of her own Ship, the U.S.S. Ares. She runs several Holosimulations to learn from the Legends of Starfleet's History
Which means they probably are going to try and create in game representations of 'legendary characters' like Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, et al. And such is forbidden under the STO Foundry TOS - so it'll be interesting to see if Cryptic weighs in in any fashion on the above project.
I am... officially disgusted with Axanar's people now.... this is just sad and blatantly flies in the face of ToS
also is it just me or are the first 3 characters on their banner the exact same? White version, black version then change hair and remove goatee version
"Disgusted" because they create a Trek machinima that may involve original characters?
Alec Peters did wrong, but that's no reason to now completely hype into the other direction and throw stones at the Axanar people. They probably mean they revisit the locations all those fanfiction films used, nobody says they even want to recreate iconic characters. And even if, so many foundry authors do this, so many ingame characters are direct relatives of iconic characters.
There's rightful criticism and then there's pointless hysteria.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I never said that she said that at all, please don't start strawmanning :-\ I said that I think Alec Peters has a chance of winning. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I said her thoughts mirror my own that Beyond and the new series are factors, and that CBS/Paramount's tolerance of other projects seriously weakens their case against Axanar... She also said:
As it is they have an "unclean hands" issue because they allowed the fan productions to go forward for so many years without reacting. Now that they are taking notice they will have to take notice across the board -- no exceptions. That's my best prediction based on training and education.
That is a direct copy of her words. What I am saying, is that this 'unclean hands' issue -- because they have allowed fan productions to go forward without reacting -- is going to affect their case. As I said in my immediately preceding post... The lawsuit focusses on use of Star Trek IP (not profits made, but the use of Star Trek IP) There are historical cases of where they have tolerated and even supported fan productions. The challenge they will face in court is not solely going to be the simple matter of proving that Axanar uses Star Trek IP, but they are going to have to prove that it was indeed i) unauthorised, and ii) explain why they care now, and thus iii) why should the judge care that they care now and rule in their favor...
you see that is detail that you should of included first to keep me from thinking you are using specific words to advance something unfounded becuase the media love to pick things apart to suit a purpose and i see it all the time. having read what is in the quote anyway, it is clear its just another unfounded opinion as its full of uncertainty and conditionals in what Melinda wrote. that isnt what you would call something solid that alec can win, she isnt sure one way or the other.
as for what else you wrote, its a ring-a-round (look back on all the previous pages).
Something I should have included? Was my comment which you responded to, not thanking crypticarmsman for sharing the links to Ms Snodgrass' pages? It's not my fault if you hadn't followed those links and read what she wrote, and which I was commenting on... :-\ I agree, she didn't say that she thought Alec Peters could win -- I said that... I said that her thoughts about Beyond and the new series being a factor in the case, mirrored my own, and that she then commented on the 'dirty hands' issue, which is what I think, will be Alec Peters' (only)chance of beating the suit...
[Edit] Sorry, his only other chance of winning, is if he can prove that Axanar had CBS/Paramount's permission to use Star Trek IP. That, and the historical tolerances, IMHO, are his only chances of winning the suit...
your anger is not my concern, your ignore is not my concern (specifically you dont want to accept other positions and if you had, this thread would not of gone 15 pages long or more), i frankly dont care who posted what, all i wanted was specific info at that moment and i got it, but your attitude is also not my concern.
when you are finished playing up and can give me an answer next time...
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Sad thing is. They actually wouldn't be in trouble here if they planned to follow the guidelines STO has for Foundry stories, except in their plot outline for 'Unity', they state:
2412.... Commander Elizabeth Thompson is on her Way for the Last Steps to be the Captain of her own Ship, the U.S.S. Ares. She runs several Holosimulations to learn from the Legends of Starfleet's History
Which means they probably are going to try and create in game representations of 'legendary characters' like Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, et al. And such is forbidden under the STO Foundry TOS - so it'll be interesting to see if Cryptic weighs in in any fashion on the above project.
I am... officially disgusted with Axanar's people now.... this is just sad and blatantly flies in the face of ToS
also is it just me or are the first 3 characters on their banner the exact same? White version, black version then change hair and remove goatee version
"Disgusted" because they create a Trek machinima that may involve original characters?
Alec Peters did wrong, but that's no reason to now completely hype into the other direction and throw stones at the Axanar people. They probably mean they revisit the locations all those fanfiction films used, nobody says they even want to recreate iconic characters. And even if, so many foundry authors do this, so many ingame characters are direct relatives of iconic characters.
There's rightful criticism and then there's pointless hysteria.
if you read past the word disgusted I stated my reason was that it "blatantly flies in the face of ToS" tho I prolly should have added the EULA. I notice you also want to try the "original characters" angle when I pointed out that 3 of their characters are pretty much clones, which is really frikkin hard to do in STO's character creator unless you are trying to
if you read past the word disgusted I stated my reason was that it "blatantly flies in the face of ToS" tho I prolly should have added the EULA. I notice you also want to try the "original characters" angle when I pointed out that 3 of their characters are pretty much clones, which is really frikkin hard to do in STO's character creator unless you are trying to
I assumed "ToS" stands for "The original Series", I didn't realize you are talking about Terms of Service. Sorry about that
Then again, is it against the ToS to recreate Star Trek characters? I mean, a lot of foundry authors and players in-game do that...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
"TOS" - The Original Series. Note that there is no good reason not to have "Original" begin with uppercase, but it's generally considered stylistically poor to capitalize "of".
"TOS" - The Original Series. Note that there is no good reason not to have "Original" begin with uppercase, but it's generally considered stylistically poor to capitalize "of".
I'm usually aware of that, but sometimes just reading with one eye something like this happens
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Um, no, I don't suffer from mental insufficiency' or 'make TRIBBLE up.
Really? I only ask, because over the page, you clearly stated that CBS never went to bat for Continues against YouTube. You were pretty adamant about it. You even made the (reasonable, but incorrect) suggestion that it was an auto-deletion, and that the Continues folks contacted YouTube themselves to get it re-hosted. As I posted at the time, Vic Mignogna's comment makes it unquestionably clear that the CBS legal team got involved on their (Continues) behalf, and he extended his grateful thanks. You also accused another poster of using a term which they strongly denied, hence my wondering if you 'make TRIBBLE up' just to shoot down someone else's point.
and BTW in your quoting of parts of the lawsuit filing you quote, you left out:
NATURE OF THE ACTION
1. This is an action for copyright infringement arising out of Defendants’ unauthorized exploitation of Star Trek, one of the most successful entertainment franchises of all time.
^^^^
And? What relevance does that have to what I posted? I 'left it out', because I felt that point 2 was more comprehensive in its detailing of the basis of the suit. Point 1 explains what the suit is, but point 2 gives the specifics, which under the circumstances, I felt were more germane to the discussion...
Except under civil copyright law, that isn't the case. Again, CBS/Paramount are suing for violation of copyright - period. As I stated Axanar COULD attempt to get the Star Trek trademarks declared unenforceable - but they'd have to file a countersuit. Under copyright lar Paramount/CBS is not required to act against every act of copyright infringement they are aware of - and the fact that they did or didn't sue anyone else for copyright infringement legally has zero bearing on the case they filed against Axanar. <--- That's how copyright law works. It's not something I 'made up'. Also, it's NOT up to CBS/Paramount to prove Axanar is unauthorized - again that's not how civil law works. Axanar has to prove they had authorization from CBS/Paramount (via contract, verbal agreement, etc. (although in the case of verbal agreement, Axanar has to get the party who they claim gave them such to testify he/she actually did - which is why it's always preferable to get something on paper and get it notarized.)
Then no doubt, that is what Alec Peters will endeavour to do...
I'm not legally trained, so I don't know if them not suing does or does not have any direct impact on the suit. My belief was that it would. If that is wrong, so be it. Melinda Snodgrass, however, is legally trained, and in the comments which you introduced to the discussion, she raised the 'unclean hands' issue. She clearly felt it a point worth mentioning...
As for the situation you mentioned where CBS told YouTube to reinstate an STC episode; again, it has zero legal bearing on the merits of the Axanar case in any way as CBS/Paramount are not required to act against every copyright violation they are aware of - and failure to so prosecute doesn't legally affect their standing in any other copyright infringement case they choose to pursue.
Still please feel free continue to claim I suffer from 'mental insufficiency' because I'm attempting to explain how aspects of the legal system works -
That was not the basis for my comment, and has been clarified at the very top of this post...
and that because Paramount/CBS have 'unclean hands' Axanar will somehow be found not to have violated CBS/Paramount's Star Trek copyrighted material; and will be free to complete 'Axanar' - and sell coffee and other merchandise because CBS/Paramount decided not to file lawsuits against any of the other fan film groups.
I never said that, but by all means, try and put words in my mouth of you feel it will be of benefit... My belief that the 'unclean hands' issue nullifies the suit, is simply my (non-expert) opinion. If that is wrong, so be it. However, I did clearly state that (aside from the suit being thrown out due to that issue) then their defence will be proof of authorization on the project. I don't know if they have it. If they have it, then that will be that. If they don't, well, Alec Peters will have a lot of money to pay out in damages...
Also, Axanar Productions stance was that the coffee was marketed on their Axanar IP, not Star Trek. As I've said all along, it's splitting hairs -- ludicrously so -- but I can see the argument they're trying to make, and it can be those minute distinctions which make the difference in suits for either party. As I noted upthread about Alpha watches: They have just enough of a difference to the original watch, that Omega or Rolex can't claim that they are a reproduction, they are merely a 'similarly styled homage'... Anyone can see that they are what they are, but on paper, that difference is what makes the difference...
Of course if you really believe that, I think you'll be disappointed IF the case goes to trial (meaning an out of court settlement couldn't be reached between the parties involved.) Of course if you're somehow a legal savant; and think yourself able to defend Axanar in court - you should contact them and offer your services, as I hear they've been trying to engage a top IP law firm for the past week or so, with no success.
I'm not surprised. They'd be going up against CBS/Paramount, why make themself an industry pariah? And no, I couldn't defend them in court, not knowing that Alec Peters used the money to create Ares Studios. Unlike many lawyers, I do actually have a conscience, and don't like the idea of crowdfunding pan-handlers...
Sad thing is. They actually wouldn't be in trouble here if they planned to follow the guidelines STO has for Foundry stories, except in their plot outline for 'Unity', they state:
2412.... Commander Elizabeth Thompson is on her Way for the Last Steps to be the Captain of her own Ship, the U.S.S. Ares. She runs several Holosimulations to learn from the Legends of Starfleet's History
Bwahahahahahahaha, that is some funny TRIBBLE Most folks have the sense to stop digging when they're in the hole... That Alec Peters, he sure is a Special Soul...
Which means they probably are going to try and create in game representations of 'legendary characters' like Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, et al. And such is forbidden under the STO Foundry TOS -
Assumption... From the page banner, I would interpret that they are taking the premise for the final episode of Enterprise, but using unique characters (albeit created with STO's character creator...)
If it's forbidden under Foundry TOS, then I hope Cryptic will have the stones to actually take action on it.
so it'll be interesting to see if Cryptic weighs in in any fashion on the above project.
Indeed. Given the extremely 'hands off' moderating and rescinding the profanity filter since the forum transfer, my initial feeling is that Cryptic won't care (or at least, not care enough to do anything about it) They might try and scare users into compliance with their TOS, (possibly because they don't want CBS yanking their licence to use canon characters) but against a production company (with a medium which could highlight more interest onto STO) and what appears to be original characters, I'd wonder if they may consider the potential benefit of new players as outweighing the possibility to litigate...
I never said that she said that at all, please don't start strawmanning :-\ I said that I think Alec Peters has a chance of winning. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I said her thoughts mirror my own that Beyond and the new series are factors, and that CBS/Paramount's tolerance of other projects seriously weakens their case against Axanar... She also said:
As it is they have an "unclean hands" issue because they allowed the fan productions to go forward for so many years without reacting. Now that they are taking notice they will have to take notice across the board -- no exceptions. That's my best prediction based on training and education.
That is a direct copy of her words. What I am saying, is that this 'unclean hands' issue -- because they have allowed fan productions to go forward without reacting -- is going to affect their case. As I said in my immediately preceding post... The lawsuit focusses on use of Star Trek IP (not profits made, but the use of Star Trek IP) There are historical cases of where they have tolerated and even supported fan productions. The challenge they will face in court is not solely going to be the simple matter of proving that Axanar uses Star Trek IP, but they are going to have to prove that it was indeed i) unauthorised, and ii) explain why they care now, and thus iii) why should the judge care that they care now and rule in their favor...
you see that is detail that you should of included first to keep me from thinking you are using specific words to advance something unfounded becuase the media love to pick things apart to suit a purpose and i see it all the time. having read what is in the quote anyway, it is clear its just another unfounded opinion as its full of uncertainty and conditionals in what Melinda wrote. that isnt what you would call something solid that alec can win, she isnt sure one way or the other.
as for what else you wrote, its a ring-a-round (look back on all the previous pages).
Something I should have included? Was my comment which you responded to, not thanking crypticarmsman for sharing the links to Ms Snodgrass' pages? It's not my fault if you hadn't followed those links and read what she wrote, and which I was commenting on... :-\ I agree, she didn't say that she thought Alec Peters could win -- I said that... I said that her thoughts about Beyond and the new series being a factor in the case, mirrored my own, and that she then commented on the 'dirty hands' issue, which is what I think, will be Alec Peters' (only)chance of beating the suit...
[Edit] Sorry, his only other chance of winning, is if he can prove that Axanar had CBS/Paramount's permission to use Star Trek IP. That, and the historical tolerances, IMHO, are his only chances of winning the suit...
your anger is not my concern, your ignore is not my concern (specifically you dont want to accept other positions and if you had, this thread would not of gone 15 pages long or more), i frankly dont care who posted what, all i wanted was specific info at that moment and i got it, but your attitude is also not my concern.
when you are finished playing up and can give me an answer next time...
I'm playing up? You were the one whining that I should include reference to things which were in fact in the 'quote trail' and you could have read yourself, rather than demanding that I 'spoon-feed' you the information... And for the record, I'm not angry, not at all. Nor was I. As for the length of the thread, how does this sound as an idea.
No one say anything else on this topic until it has been settled in court, and then we'll discuss the outcome.
Would that be better for you? It's an ongoing conversation... So what if it's run to 15 pages? If you don't want to read it, don't...
if you read past the word disgusted I stated my reason was that it "blatantly flies in the face of ToS" tho I prolly should have added the EULA. I notice you also want to try the "original characters" angle when I pointed out that 3 of their characters are pretty much clones, which is really frikkin hard to do in STO's character creator unless you are trying to
I assumed "ToS" stands for "The original Series", I didn't realize you are talking about Terms of Service. Sorry about that
Then again, is it against the ToS to recreate Star Trek characters? I mean, a lot of foundry authors and players in-game do that...
The EULA specifically states we are not to attempt to recreate the likenesses of any of the actual actors.
Using the characters in a story is NOT a violation though. Which is why a lot of people use children of the characters and not the characters themselves. It's not prohibited at all.
Why can't CBS purchase it and finish it? Why would they buy it? They already own it...that's what the case is about. Also they probably don't want to do business with Peters and anything Star Trek they are working on needs to be the new show.
They own the IP - but the actual physical assets already constructed, and CGI work already done, could easily be either purchased by CBS or made part of a settlement. They could then finish Axanar, and use that as publicity for their upcoming Trek series (possibly even making Axanar available for a time on YouTube or Netflix, and moving it to their proprietary streaming service when the new series starts).
Except from what I understand the actually film story, and original characters belong to Peter's so they can't legally us it unless they pay for those. Aka the reason Harlan Ellison gets a paycheck when ever the Guardian of Forever makes an appearance, and why Cryptic had to work out an agreement with the guy who designed the Vesta before putting it in the game.
It isn't about just infringement, it's also about the abuse of funds. Anaxar's little report on their funds raised one specific red flag, and it was a large amount of funds being used to build a studio that is not even related to Anaxar. At all.
Why can't CBS purchase it and finish it? Why would they buy it? They already own it...that's what the case is about. Also they probably don't want to do business with Peters and anything Star Trek they are working on needs to be the new show.
They own the IP - but the actual physical assets already constructed, and CGI work already done, could easily be either purchased by CBS or made part of a settlement. They could then finish Axanar, and use that as publicity for their upcoming Trek series (possibly even making Axanar available for a time on YouTube or Netflix, and moving it to their proprietary streaming service when the new series starts).
Except from what I understand the actually film story, and original characters belong to Peter's so they can't legally us it unless they pay for those. Aka the reason Harlan Ellison gets a paycheck when ever the Guardian of Forever makes an appearance, and why Cryptic had to work out an agreement with the guy who designed the Vesta before putting it in the game.
That was why I said they could buy it (or acquire the rights as part of an out-of-court settlement, and the more we learn about Alec Peters the more strongly I would urge him to seek such a settlement).
It isn't about just infringement, it's also about the abuse of funds. Anaxar's little report on their funds raised one specific red flag, and it was a large amount of funds being used to build a studio that is not even related to Anaxar. At all.
I don't think the funds come in it, as far as CBS/Paramount are concerned... Personally, I think its about the proximity to Beyond and the upcoming series, but what the lawsuit states, is that they're suing for infringement. I don't believe that, I think that's just what they're using which is the closest fit, but that's what they're going with
It isn't about just infringement, it's also about the abuse of funds. Anaxar's little report on their funds raised one specific red flag, and it was a large amount of funds being used to build a studio that is not even related to Anaxar. At all.
I don't think the funds come in it, as far as CBS/Paramount are concerned... Personally, I think its about the proximity to Beyond and the upcoming series, but what the lawsuit states, is that they're suing for infringement. I don't believe that, I think that's just what they're using which is the closest fit, but that's what they're going with
Please, tell me more about how you're a mind-reader. [/trollface]
It isn't about just infringement, it's also about the abuse of funds. Anaxar's little report on their funds raised one specific red flag, and it was a large amount of funds being used to build a studio that is not even related to Anaxar. At all.
I don't think the funds come in it, as far as CBS/Paramount are concerned... Personally, I think its about the proximity to Beyond and the upcoming series, but what the lawsuit states, is that they're suing for infringement. I don't believe that, I think that's just what they're using which is the closest fit, but that's what they're going with
Please, tell me more about how you're a mind-reader. [/trollface]
Don't need to be a mind-reader to have an opinion... Given the link crypticarmsman provided to some of Melinda Snodgrass' pages, it looks like I'm not the only person thinking along that line (that the upcoming series and Beyond are motivating factors) Like I said, I don't think (key-words there, it's just my opinion) that CBS/Paramount care about the money. There's certainly no mention of it in the lawsuit beyond an "fyi, they've raised $$s" If they cared about the money, I would have thought it would have been either more prominently featured, or even named that as the basis for the suit, as in "We only let fan projects raise upto $10k, per project, but they've raised $1m...", not simply cited infringements... (which, as mentioned, if Alec Peters can provide proof of guidelines given, gets dismissed as authorized (unless they cite specific guideline infractons)...) Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much, and putting 2 and 2 together than getting 22, but given Ms Snodgrass' thoughts, I'm clearly not the only one thinking along those lines...
Why can't CBS purchase it and finish it? Why would they buy it? They already own it...that's what the case is about. Also they probably don't want to do business with Peters and anything Star Trek they are working on needs to be the new show.
They own the IP - but the actual physical assets already constructed, and CGI work already done, could easily be either purchased by CBS or made part of a settlement. They could then finish Axanar, and use that as publicity for their upcoming Trek series (possibly even making Axanar available for a time on YouTube or Netflix, and moving it to their proprietary streaming service when the new series starts).
Except from what I understand the actually film story, and original characters belong to Peter's so they can't legally us it unless they pay for those. Aka the reason Harlan Ellison gets a paycheck when ever the Guardian of Forever makes an appearance, and why Cryptic had to work out an agreement with the guy who designed the Vesta before putting it in the game.
That was why I said they could buy it (or acquire the rights as part of an out-of-court settlement, and the more we learn about Alec Peters the more strongly I would urge him to seek such a settlement).
But would CBS and/or Paramount be actually interested in that, especially since it partially rearwards a guy for stealing their IP.
Why can't CBS purchase it and finish it? Why would they buy it? They already own it...that's what the case is about. Also they probably don't want to do business with Peters and anything Star Trek they are working on needs to be the new show.
They own the IP - but the actual physical assets already constructed, and CGI work already done, could easily be either purchased by CBS or made part of a settlement. They could then finish Axanar, and use that as publicity for their upcoming Trek series (possibly even making Axanar available for a time on YouTube or Netflix, and moving it to their proprietary streaming service when the new series starts).
Except from what I understand the actually film story, and original characters belong to Peter's so they can't legally us it unless they pay for those. Aka the reason Harlan Ellison gets a paycheck when ever the Guardian of Forever makes an appearance, and why Cryptic had to work out an agreement with the guy who designed the Vesta before putting it in the game.
That was why I said they could buy it (or acquire the rights as part of an out-of-court settlement, and the more we learn about Alec Peters the more strongly I would urge him to seek such a settlement).
But would CBS and/or Paramount be actually interested in that, especially since it partially rearwards a guy for stealing their IP.
Well, it would give them a project which they would know their viewing and paying fans are actually interested in... So far, the prevailing opinion toward Beyond seems to be "MOTORBIKES IN SPACE!!!!!" and a fair few people aren't looking forward to paying a subscription fee, so in that regard, they get the wins of i) taking the idea of a guy who took their idea, and making coin off it, and ii) a more solid potential for fan satisfaction, rather than "Beyond/New Series sucks!!! Axanar was way better!!!"
Why can't CBS purchase it and finish it? Why would they buy it? They already own it...that's what the case is about. Also they probably don't want to do business with Peters and anything Star Trek they are working on needs to be the new show.
They own the IP - but the actual physical assets already constructed, and CGI work already done, could easily be either purchased by CBS or made part of a settlement. They could then finish Axanar, and use that as publicity for their upcoming Trek series (possibly even making Axanar available for a time on YouTube or Netflix, and moving it to their proprietary streaming service when the new series starts).
Except from what I understand the actually film story, and original characters belong to Peter's so they can't legally us it unless they pay for those. Aka the reason Harlan Ellison gets a paycheck when ever the Guardian of Forever makes an appearance, and why Cryptic had to work out an agreement with the guy who designed the Vesta before putting it in the game.
That was why I said they could buy it (or acquire the rights as part of an out-of-court settlement, and the more we learn about Alec Peters the more strongly I would urge him to seek such a settlement).
But would CBS and/or Paramount be actually interested in that, especially since it partially rearwards a guy for stealing their IP.
Well, it would give them a project which they would know their viewing and paying fans are actually interested in... So far, the prevailing opinion toward Beyond seems to be "MOTORBIKES IN SPACE!!!!!" and a fair few people aren't looking forward to paying a subscription fee, so in that regard, they get the wins of i) taking the idea of a guy who took their idea, and making coin off it, and ii) a more solid potential for fan satisfaction, rather than "Beyond/New Series sucks!!! Axanar was way better!!!"
Star Trek '09 and Star Trek Into Darkness are the highest grossing Star Trek films. So while purists might not see "Motorbikes in Space"...the General Audience will and they bring in more money than we do.
And while a few people aren't looking forward to a subscription fee...the future of TV is no longer with cable but with websites like Hulu, Netflix, HBOGo and the networks subscription sites.
As was pointed out paying for Axanar awards Peters for being underhanded. It seems that many people seem to believe this movie he was making was going to be good (sure the promotional stuff looked good).
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Well, it would give them a project which they would know their viewing and paying fans are actually interested in...
Axanar raised a million dollars the last two JJ films made $385,680,446 and $467,381,584 respectively, Axanar is frankly chump change.
Its also a freaking war movie that borrows a decent amount of stuff FROM SAID JJ FILMS. I heard it describe as NuBSG is Star Trek drag.
So far, the prevailing opinion toward Beyond seems to be "MOTORBIKES IN SPACE!!!!!"
From people whining on the inter net, just form the Youtube posting of said trailer
Dislikes: 23,700 Likes: 56,361
Just becuase people whine loudly about something online does not make them the majority.
and a fair few people aren't looking forward to paying a subscription fee,
They're just willing to spend two years shelling out for a fan film that keeps getting pushed back and wanting more money everytime.
so in that regard, they get the wins of i) taking the idea of a guy who took their idea, and making coin off it, and ii) a more solid potential for fan satisfaction, rather than "Beyond/New Series sucks!!! Axanar was way better!!!"
Or they crush this going on with their plans and ignore the vocal minority as they have been doing for years.
Axanar Productions (and Mr. Alec Peters in particular) seem to forget what they've done to date (IE - Mr. Peters now claims he doesn't know where people got the idea that 'Ares Studios' was going to be used for other 'for profit' productions; or that Axanar backer/donor funds was used with that aspect in mind...
Sorry, but anyone who believes the only reason CBS/Paramount filed a lawsuit was because they were afraid Axanar would be too good/somehow show up either Star Trek:Beyond or the new in pre-production Star Trek TV/Streaming series; please wake up and smell the coffee.
CBS/Paramount sued because this guy is trying to start a for profit business using 'Star Trek' as a means to get the start up funding - and has been blatantly hawking unlicensed merchandise (Coffee, Calendars, T-Shirts) all under the guise of making a single fan film (sorry, but if you WERE making a single fan film with photography slated to last 3 weeks, and you are doing it 'efficiently' - do you really need a two story office block?)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Comments
That specifically mentions intellectual property, and copyright laws. However you want to try to spin it, trademark, intellectual property, copyright, whatever, the point is, 'what Axanar Productions are doing', other production companies have 'done before' without being sued by CBS/Paramount, and in one instance (which I proved to you, and you never had the courtesy to acknowledge that I was right) CBS actively supported against YouTube.
So.
CBS/Paramount are trying to sue Axanar Productions for 'doing something' which they have tolerated in the past. It might be CSB/Paramount's prerogative to only sue when they want to, but the fact that they did not sue in past instances means, as Melinda Snodgrass pointed out, they have 'unclean hands', meaning that their position is significantly weakened. If, and this is a Big If, Alec Peters can produce proof that Axanar was, like those other productions, 'being tolerated', then it nullifies the very basis of CBS/Paramount's lawsuit.
I have said all along, that I believe that CBS/Paramount are actually suing due to Beyond and the new series coming out and fear of a lack of take up on those projects due to Axanar (Melinda Snodgrass also clearly states ) but suing someone because they are 'scared of the competition' would be laughed out of court, so they have instead gone down the infringement route, because that is something more protected by law, and which they can easily prove -- if they had not already given prior consent to the project, even if with caveats and guidelines... This is not a true lawsuit in the sense of where Marvin Gaye's family sued Robin Thicke over infringement of musical content, this is (I believe) a case of them deciding to sue because it will stall/derail Axanar, allowing them to release Beyond and the new series and rake in the coin for it, and have simply chosen the legal option which most closely fits (but which is actually a pretty poor fit, due to the above-mentioned 'unclean hands' issue)
I know, I know, CBS/Paramount doesn't have to do this. With the new clear cut guidelines to Fan Productions. But they really have no choice. Or else somebody is going to put together a well though out Idea and will take on in a head to head battle with CBS/Paramount to bring this problem of working in somebody else sandbox to a head.
Where somebody working out of their own converted Garage (IE Lexington and Hidden Frontiers). Is quietly able to fly right under CBS/Paramount copyright's radar to somebody who make a nova type explosion with their Fan Production (IE New Voyages and Continues). To someone who creates a supernova explosion (IE AXANAR and Renegades).
CBS/Paramount decided to use a 14lbs sludgehammer on ANAXAR. Now they have to deal with to shockwaves in the form of public opinion on Fair Usage, Copyrights and Copyright Laws in the USA.
Also can Star Trek Beyond and their upcoming Star Trek series. Which will only air on CBS All Access streaming. Survive the fan blow back with the most powerful weapons in a fan's arsenal. Their wallet and their viewing time.
Both could take serious damage because of this Lawsuit. I really hope they though this through. Because Star Trek Fan's Public and Private Opinion's on how CBS/Paramount has handled the Star Trek Legacy is very mixed (IN MY OWN OPINION) and I don't think they ever totally fade away. CBS/Paramount's Public Opinion with Star Trek Fan's. Could look like Rocky at the end of the first Rocky movie
Look at all the refs. To the Fundraising Project done to give Enterprise a 5th season and CBS/Paramount reply to the 100,000 dollars raised. To see the beating they took then.
My character Tsin'xing
Um, no, I don't suffer from mental insufficiency' or 'make TRIBBLE up. I in fact work for a court so I do have some understanding of how the legal system works. and BTW in your quoting of parts of the lawsuit filing you quote, you left out:
^^^^
And that's the merits under which the case will be judged. You seem to believe that because (in addition to mentioning copyright) in the part you did quote:
quote]NATURE OF THE ACTION: Point 2 (page 2)
Defendants have made a short film entitled Star Trek:Prelude to Axanar ("Prelude to Axanar"), and are in the process of producing a film called Axanar (the "Axanar motion picture") (collectively, the "Axanar Works"). The Axanar works infringe Plaintiff's works by using innumerable copyrighted elements of Star Trek, including its settings, characters, species and themes. The Axanar Works are intended to be professional quality productions that, by Defendants' own admission, unabashedly takes Paramounts and CBS's intellectual property and aim to "look and feel like a true Star Trek movie." On information and belief, Defendants have raised over $1 million so far to produce these works, including building out a studio and hiring actors, set designers and costume designers. The Axanar Works are substantially similar to, and unauthorized derivative works of, Plaintiffs' Star Trek television series and movies, in contravention of the copyright laws of the United States.
[/quote]
since the term 'intellectual property' is used it opens up the case to include trademarks, etc:
Except under civil copyright law, that isn't the case. Again, CBS/Paramount are suing for violation of copyright - period. As I stated Axanar COULD attempt to get the Star Trek trademarks declared unenforceable - but they'd have to file a countersuit. Under copyright lar Paramount/CBS is not required to act against every act of copyright infringement they are aware of - and the fact that they did or didn't sue anyone else for copyright infringement legally has zero bearing on the case they filed against Axanar. <--- That's how copyright law works. It's not something I 'made up'. Also, it's NOT up to CBS/Paramount to prove Axanar is unauthorized - again that's not how civil law works. Axanar has to prove they had authorization from CBS/Paramount (via contract, verbal agreement, etc. (although in the case of verbal agreement, Axanar has to get the party who they claim gave them such to testify he/she actually did - which is why it's always preferable to get something on paper and get it notarized.)
As for the situation you mentioned where CBS told YouTube to reinstate an STC episode; again, it has zero legal bearing on the merits of the Axanar case in any way as CBS/Paramount are not required to act against every copyright violation they are aware of - and failure to so prosecute doesn't legally affect their standing in any other copyright infringement case they choose to pursue.
Remember, In the United States we do not have a 'Justice system'; we have a 'Legal system'. Judges also 99% of the time follow the letter of the law. Why? Because when they don't their findings based on the 'spirit of the law' are usually overturned on appeal. There are rare times when something happens that hasn't been adjudicated before - and a Judge has the opportunity to make new case law - but there's nothing unique about the Axanar case. Still please feel free continue to claim I suffer from 'mental insufficiency' because I'm attempting to explain how aspects of the legal system works - and somehow you don't find that 'right' or 'fair' - and that because Paramount/CBS have 'unclean hands' Axanar will somehow be found not to have violated CBS/Paramount's Star Trek copyrighted material; and will be free to complete 'Axanar' - and sell coffee and other merchandise because CBS/Paramount decided not to file lawsuits against any of the other fan film groups. Of course if you really believe that, I think you'll be disappointed IF the case goes to trial (meaning an out of court settlement couldn't be reached between the parties involved.) Of course if you're somehow a legal savant; and think yourself able to defend Axanar in court - you should contact them and offer your services, as I hear they've been trying to engage a top IP law firm for the past week or so, with no success.
BTW - The folks at Axanar just don't seem to be able to quit - and here's something they are planning that actually involves Star Trek Online:
https://www.facebook.com/ST-Unity-1695237640715284/info/?tab=page_info
Sad thing is. They actually wouldn't be in trouble here if they planned to follow the guidelines STO has for Foundry stories, except in their plot outline for 'Unity', they state:
Which means they probably are going to try and create in game representations of 'legendary characters' like Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, et al. And such is forbidden under the STO Foundry TOS - so it'll be interesting to see if Cryptic weighs in in any fashion on the above project.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
also from that Facebook page they plan to use voice talent which again I'm thinking er no no.
also is it just me or are the first 3 characters on their banner the exact same? White version, black version then change hair and remove goatee version
"Disgusted" because they create a Trek machinima that may involve original characters?
Alec Peters did wrong, but that's no reason to now completely hype into the other direction and throw stones at the Axanar people. They probably mean they revisit the locations all those fanfiction films used, nobody says they even want to recreate iconic characters. And even if, so many foundry authors do this, so many ingame characters are direct relatives of iconic characters.
There's rightful criticism and then there's pointless hysteria.
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your anger is not my concern, your ignore is not my concern (specifically you dont want to accept other positions and if you had, this thread would not of gone 15 pages long or more), i frankly dont care who posted what, all i wanted was specific info at that moment and i got it, but your attitude is also not my concern.
when you are finished playing up and can give me an answer next time...
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
if you read past the word disgusted I stated my reason was that it "blatantly flies in the face of ToS" tho I prolly should have added the EULA. I notice you also want to try the "original characters" angle when I pointed out that 3 of their characters are pretty much clones, which is really frikkin hard to do in STO's character creator unless you are trying to
I assumed "ToS" stands for "The original Series", I didn't realize you are talking about Terms of Service. Sorry about that
Then again, is it against the ToS to recreate Star Trek characters? I mean, a lot of foundry authors and players in-game do that...
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"TOS" - The Original Series. Note that there is no good reason not to have "Original" begin with uppercase, but it's generally considered stylistically poor to capitalize "of".
I'm usually aware of that, but sometimes just reading with one eye something like this happens
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In what capacity? This is an irrelevant appeal to authority... A porter works for a hospital, that does not make them a surgeon...
And? What relevance does that have to what I posted? I 'left it out', because I felt that point 2 was more comprehensive in its detailing of the basis of the suit. Point 1 explains what the suit is, but point 2 gives the specifics, which under the circumstances, I felt were more germane to the discussion...
Then no doubt, that is what Alec Peters will endeavour to do...
I'm not legally trained, so I don't know if them not suing does or does not have any direct impact on the suit. My belief was that it would. If that is wrong, so be it. Melinda Snodgrass, however, is legally trained, and in the comments which you introduced to the discussion, she raised the 'unclean hands' issue. She clearly felt it a point worth mentioning...
So be it...
That was not the basis for my comment, and has been clarified at the very top of this post...
I never said that, but by all means, try and put words in my mouth of you feel it will be of benefit... My belief that the 'unclean hands' issue nullifies the suit, is simply my (non-expert) opinion. If that is wrong, so be it. However, I did clearly state that (aside from the suit being thrown out due to that issue) then their defence will be proof of authorization on the project. I don't know if they have it. If they have it, then that will be that. If they don't, well, Alec Peters will have a lot of money to pay out in damages...
Also, Axanar Productions stance was that the coffee was marketed on their Axanar IP, not Star Trek. As I've said all along, it's splitting hairs -- ludicrously so -- but I can see the argument they're trying to make, and it can be those minute distinctions which make the difference in suits for either party. As I noted upthread about Alpha watches: They have just enough of a difference to the original watch, that Omega or Rolex can't claim that they are a reproduction, they are merely a 'similarly styled homage'... Anyone can see that they are what they are, but on paper, that difference is what makes the difference...
I'm not surprised. They'd be going up against CBS/Paramount, why make themself an industry pariah? And no, I couldn't defend them in court, not knowing that Alec Peters used the money to create Ares Studios. Unlike many lawyers, I do actually have a conscience, and don't like the idea of crowdfunding pan-handlers...
Bwahahahahahahaha, that is some funny TRIBBLE
Assumption... From the page banner, I would interpret that they are taking the premise for the final episode of Enterprise, but using unique characters (albeit created with STO's character creator...)
If it's forbidden under Foundry TOS, then I hope Cryptic will have the stones to actually take action on it.
Indeed. Given the extremely 'hands off' moderating and rescinding the profanity filter since the forum transfer, my initial feeling is that Cryptic won't care (or at least, not care enough to do anything about it) They might try and scare users into compliance with their TOS, (possibly because they don't want CBS yanking their licence to use canon characters) but against a production company (with a medium which could highlight more interest onto STO) and what appears to be original characters, I'd wonder if they may consider the potential benefit of new players as outweighing the possibility to litigate...
No one say anything else on this topic until it has been settled in court, and then we'll discuss the outcome.
Would that be better for you? It's an ongoing conversation... So what if it's run to 15 pages? If you don't want to read it, don't...
Using the characters in a story is NOT a violation though. Which is why a lot of people use children of the characters and not the characters themselves. It's not prohibited at all.
My character Tsin'xing
Except from what I understand the actually film story, and original characters belong to Peter's so they can't legally us it unless they pay for those. Aka the reason Harlan Ellison gets a paycheck when ever the Guardian of Forever makes an appearance, and why Cryptic had to work out an agreement with the guy who designed the Vesta before putting it in the game.
My character Tsin'xing
But would CBS and/or Paramount be actually interested in that, especially since it partially rearwards a guy for stealing their IP.
Well, it would give them a project which they would know their viewing and paying fans are actually interested in...
Star Trek '09 and Star Trek Into Darkness are the highest grossing Star Trek films. So while purists might not see "Motorbikes in Space"...the General Audience will and they bring in more money than we do.
And while a few people aren't looking forward to a subscription fee...the future of TV is no longer with cable but with websites like Hulu, Netflix, HBOGo and the networks subscription sites.
As was pointed out paying for Axanar awards Peters for being underhanded. It seems that many people seem to believe this movie he was making was going to be good (sure the promotional stuff looked good).
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Axanar raised a million dollars the last two JJ films made $385,680,446 and $467,381,584 respectively, Axanar is frankly chump change.
Its also a freaking war movie that borrows a decent amount of stuff FROM SAID JJ FILMS. I heard it describe as NuBSG is Star Trek drag.
From people whining on the inter net, just form the Youtube posting of said trailer
Dislikes: 23,700 Likes: 56,361
Just becuase people whine loudly about something online does not make them the majority.
They're just willing to spend two years shelling out for a fan film that keeps getting pushed back and wanting more money everytime.
Or they crush this going on with their plans and ignore the vocal minority as they have been doing for years.
maybe Mr. Peters needs to rewatch the video blog Axanar Productions posted back in April 2015:
Sorry, but anyone who believes the only reason CBS/Paramount filed a lawsuit was because they were afraid Axanar would be too good/somehow show up either Star Trek:Beyond or the new in pre-production Star Trek TV/Streaming series; please wake up and smell the coffee.
CBS/Paramount sued because this guy is trying to start a for profit business using 'Star Trek' as a means to get the start up funding - and has been blatantly hawking unlicensed merchandise (Coffee, Calendars, T-Shirts) all under the guise of making a single fan film (sorry, but if you WERE making a single fan film with photography slated to last 3 weeks, and you are doing it 'efficiently' - do you really need a two story office block?)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."