Although I'm very sympathetic to your request you can't possibly expect Cryptic to privide alternatives for every single group out there. A game with hundreds of thousands of active players may be able to affort programming alternatives to cover most people with disabilities but this game has maybe 10'000-20'000 active players AND it's free2play. You need to understand Cryptic's position as well.
A harsh but fair appraisal. In this case sadly the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
Although I'm very sympathetic to your request you can't possibly expect Cryptic to privide alternatives for every single group out there. A game with hundreds of thousands of active players may be able to affort programming alternatives to cover most people with disabilities but this game has maybe 10'000-20'000 active players AND it's free2play. You need to understand Cryptic's position as well.
A harsh but fair appraisal. In this case sadly the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
funny because I see other posts on this forum about the hit points on such and such being too high and taking too long to kill or this and that being to difficult to win because of instant fails, there is nothing unusual about players asking for something to me made a little easier due to time limits imposed and I am sure the other request were not based on something that will be gone forever in a month.
also funny how you never see these kind of threads regarding the summer and anniversary ship missions yet every year the forums are guaranteed to have threads about how tough the winter mission is.
Post edited by bobbydazlers on
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
But the way you make this Cryptic's fault, in all honesty, makes you look unreasonable.
What I'm hearing is "yes, this event was designed to exclude a small number players from getting the ship even if they give it their best shot, but you make that sound like a bad thing so you're being unreasonable". That word, "unreasonable". I do not think it means what you think it means.
LOL. "Designed to exclude a small number players from getting the ship." Do you even hear yourself?! Paranoia much?
I have a stubborn faith in the ultimate triumph of empathy, compassion and goodwill over... whatever it is that's driving opposition to an expansion of options.
Nah. You can't do the race, and are actually so self-centered as to think Cryptic went out of their way to exclude a minority. Let me correct you on that. As I said earlier, "Events are a way to keep ppl in the game, in the hope of them spending some money along the way." Which means Cryptic, per definition, wants as much people to participate as possible. A small minority apparently can't do it. And that sucks. But when you start to demand that Cryptic spend an inordinate amount of time providing alternate means to finish the race for just a handful of people, that's where you get unreasonable.
P.S. And Cryptic *did* provide an alternate means to boot: Lobi.
I have multiple ships that say otherwise. But my abilities aren't the issue. Is this mini-game supposed to be inclusive or exclusive? If it's supposed to be inclusive, it needs work. If it's supposed to be exclusive, it still needs work -- to make it much more difficult and weed out the bulk of inferior players who don't deserve the Death Lobster.
That's the essential question. Inclusive or exclusive? The response I'm seeing from certain players is, "I want it to remain exclusive, but not so exclusive that it excludes me"... a response that has the virtue of honesty even if it falls a bit short in the realm of objectivity.
For me, I'll get my Death Lobster running the race. If somebody else gets it by completing another activity, cool. That takes nothing away from the (minimal) effort I expended. Maybe the new activity will be more fun than the race and nobody will do the race anymore. That would be awesome -- not because I have any axe to grind against the race, but because it would mean that more people are having more FUN. Remember fun? It's sort of the point of playing games.
I have multiple ships that say otherwise. But my abilities aren't the issue. Is this mini-game supposed to be inclusive or exclusive? If it's supposed to be inclusive, it needs work. If it's supposed to be exclusive, it still needs work -- to make it much more difficult and weed out the bulk of inferior players who don't deserve the Death Lobster.
It's supposed to be a game. That means it's supposed to present a challenge. It's supposed to have a goal and rules for how to achieve that goal. And if you can't follow the rules and reach the goal, then you are supposed to lose.
A game is not supposed to let you win just because you "gave it your best shot." Not unless you're playing against your mom.
But the way you make this Cryptic's fault, in all honesty, makes you look unreasonable.
What I'm hearing is "yes, this event was designed to exclude a small number players from getting the ship even if they give it their best shot, but you make that sound like a bad thing so you're being unreasonable". That word, "unreasonable". I do not think it means what you think it means.
TO explain why it's unreasonable:
Have you heard of any blind people playing Star Trek Online? Can blind people play Star Trek Online? Is the fact that they can't a sign that it was designed to exclude a small number of people from playing it at all?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I am reminded of when an AMC Hut was required to become ADA compliant. If unfamiliar, the AMC Huts are a system of huts in the White Mountains of New Hampshire that cater to hikers, the only way to get to them is up mountains, over some pretty rugged trails. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires that publicly accessible buildings offer access to people with disabilities.
To make the point that forcing the AMC to put in ramps at the hut was a good thing, students from UNH carried a friend, bound to his wheelchair, up the mountain so he could use the ramp. The real duh moment was, when they got to the hut, why did they have to put him down at the base of the stairs? They could carry him all the way up the mountain, but they couldn't carry him up a single flight of stairs?
In general, I think the ADA is a great thing, in fact I've fought to make my workplace more ADA compliant, but there comes a time when accommodations are just over the top. A video game that requires a level of hand-eye coordination, accommodating those without? No. I will continue to call out those who decide to judge the level of someone's disability, but along the same lines, Cryptic should not have to make such a discernment either.
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
It's supposed to be a game. That means it's supposed to present a challenge. It's supposed to have a goal and rules for how to achieve that goal. And if you can't follow the rules and reach the goal, then you are supposed to lose.
Do you find Fastest Game challenging? I don't. I win it every time, unless I'm severely distracted. And no matter how fast I finish, I get exactly the same participation trophy as everybody else -- except for a small group of people who find it an insurmountable obstacle.
I'm just not seeing any significant damage to the race event if there's an alternate method of earning tokens that doesn't involve twitch skill... unless the alternate activity is more fun and engaging, but even in that case, more fun is a good outcome.
If there was a viable alternative that didn't require so much twitch skill I'd be all for it. My main issue is my PC and it's apparent need to mis-represent where I am at on the track. Beyond that while I don't find the race fun, I can generally finish it after 4-5 tries. Do I expect them to just hand me the keys to the ship...no, not really. However they have given away ships in the past. This just requires some work to get.
I'm more "upset" (while not being upset) that I can't get the older ships but oh well, no biggie. Honestly that is low on my priority list and doesn't matter.
STO has turned into a "participation trophy" game.
Is showing up is all that's required!?
The very first winter event I would practice (yes actually doing dry runs) just to get better at running, jumping, cutting corners and turning on the courses.
Now I can win or come close 2nd in the PvP race and the Fastest game I can catch or come close to catching the prior players NPC competitor!
Geez what an idiot I was when I just should have come to the forums and bitched until an easier mode is created.
No need to get mean. I honestly have no problem with ppl saying they have a disability which prevents them from completing it. And I am all for accommodating those people in real life, so they can participate as full citizens. But this is a minor race, inside a winter event of a computer game (one for which you are logically required to possess some motor skills when you sign up, as piloting a ship is kinda what this game is all about); so, in that light, I don't think it's really all that fair to blame Cryptic for not bending over backwards to change the race.
Also, as i said before, after a fashion, everyone is disabled. And by that I just mean that, say, my not being able to do 75k+ is, linea recta, the result of some lousy hand-eye coordination on my end. I have the best gear out there, know how to fit properly; it's just that I get too confused when too much is going on at the time, and start fouling up my timings. My point being: this holds true, to varying degrees, for everyone in this game (for all, but the very top-ranking player, of course). But I don't go and blame Cryptic for my shortcomings. Way it is is the way it is. So, I 'solve' this, in part, just by upgrading everything of value to Epic. That costs me a lot. And here endeth my long-winded point: do likewise for the race. If you can't beat it regularly, just shell out a bit extra and spend some Lobi. Cryptic really *did* offer you a way to get the ship, after all: y'all just don't like the answer.
STO has turned into a "participation trophy" game.
Is showing up is all that's required!?
The very first winter event I would practice (yes actually doing dry runs) just to get better at running, jumping, cutting corners and turning on the courses.
Now I can win or come close 2nd in the PvP race and the Fastest game I can catch or come close to catching the prior players NPC competitor!
Geez what an idiot I was when I just should have come to the forums and bitched until an easier mode is created.
that's great you got it nailed because you would practice, so how much did you have to practice the summer and anniversary ship mission?
if the answer is not at all then I rest my case, why should the winter ship mission be the only one that requires practice, does that not itself prove that this mission is more challenging then the others for no good reason.
why is it on this very forum there is a sticky guide for the fastest game on ice, I see no sticky for the summer and anniversary ship mission.
I am not saying everything in the game should be made easy peasy but all of these ship events should be of equal measure, if you don't need to practice and have how to stickys for the other missions then you should not need this for the winter offering either.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
all you need to do is think of how easy the summer and anniversary ship missions are and compare them to the winter one to see how hard this might be for some players.
in the summer event you have a generous time limit and just need to fly through the very large check points, if you do happen to miss one you can just circle back and have another go.
I'll make one more post and then I'm checking out of this thread.
EDIT: The TL:DR version: We shouldn't compare apples and oranges here. Read on the WoT to find out why...
Let's look at the differences between the summer floater course and the winter ice race and ask ourselves the question why the time limits are different. Actually, let's start with the more basic question... Why any time limit at all?
If the only point of the activity was completion, there wouldn't be a time limit. It would also barely qualify as gameplay, and not necessarily entertaining gameplay at that. The time limit has a practical purpose. It creates the expectation that this activity is a challenge. You not only have to complete it, but you have to work under some pressure to complete it within a certain time frame. If nothing else, it's a daily event so they'd need to impose some kind of time limit regardless.
The other point of a time limit is to delineate how much time the Devs expect you to be engaged in a given activity. This is a benchmark that applies directly to their metrics that gauge participation level. This is far from the only activity that has a time limit; the queues do, too. Heck, all of the other summer and winter activities have a time limit, too. So the ice race is not an anomaly at all.
Now let's get back to the difference in the time limit between the two activities.
First off, the Summer and Winter events are very different in tone. The theme of the Summer event is R&R: Recreation and Relaxation. (You're taking a vacation.) The theme of the Winter event is C&C: Celebration and Competition. The Summer event shouldn't feel hectic or competitive, and doesn't with the one exception of the powerboard race. But that's an actual race. The floater course is supposed to be a test of skill; there's no opponent. This is an excellent explanation for why so much more time is given for the floater course. But it's not the only difference.
A second difference between the two activities is the fact that one is more spread out than the other. The ice race only occurs in one specific area of the map. The floater course takes place in three random locations over the entire Risa resort map. You need more time to complete the floater course, taking travel time into account.
The third difference is sort of related to the second, in that the boundaries of the activity are much different. On Risa, the floater course takes place over a wide area in three dimensions and if there is any boundary that disqualifies you I haven't encountered it. It is highly unlikely that any other player will obscure your view, distract you, or otherwise get in your way. The ice race takes place in two dimensions and has intentional boundaries that keep it an actual race. If anyone could run it whenever they wanted, I guarantee you'd see multiple people trying to run it at the same time, getting in each others' way, and making it generally more difficult. The time limit helps to enforce a certain pace of getting each player through the course individually.
There are more differences, but I'll stop there. The point is that the time limits have a purpose. You might successfully argue that the time limit for the ice race is too short for many players due to the difficulty of staying in the boundaries and that it should be increased somewhat by a modest amount. You're going to be less successful making a case that the time limits should be effectively removed or negligible.
At the end of the day this is a videogame and for now you need eyes and hands to play. If you can't do the daily race for the ship then buy it with Lobi. As for the Epoh race every participant gets tags even if you don't place. If you added some sort of easy no effort way to complete it everyone would use it no matter if they are disabled or not.
Comments
A harsh but fair appraisal. In this case sadly the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
funny because I see other posts on this forum about the hit points on such and such being too high and taking too long to kill or this and that being to difficult to win because of instant fails, there is nothing unusual about players asking for something to me made a little easier due to time limits imposed and I am sure the other request were not based on something that will be gone forever in a month.
also funny how you never see these kind of threads regarding the summer and anniversary ship missions yet every year the forums are guaranteed to have threads about how tough the winter mission is.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
LOL. "Designed to exclude a small number players from getting the ship." Do you even hear yourself?! Paranoia much?
Nah. You can't do the race, and are actually so self-centered as to think Cryptic went out of their way to exclude a minority. Let me correct you on that. As I said earlier, "Events are a way to keep ppl in the game, in the hope of them spending some money along the way." Which means Cryptic, per definition, wants as much people to participate as possible. A small minority apparently can't do it. And that sucks. But when you start to demand that Cryptic spend an inordinate amount of time providing alternate means to finish the race for just a handful of people, that's where you get unreasonable.
P.S. And Cryptic *did* provide an alternate means to boot: Lobi.
I have multiple ships that say otherwise. But my abilities aren't the issue. Is this mini-game supposed to be inclusive or exclusive? If it's supposed to be inclusive, it needs work. If it's supposed to be exclusive, it still needs work -- to make it much more difficult and weed out the bulk of inferior players who don't deserve the Death Lobster.
That's the essential question. Inclusive or exclusive? The response I'm seeing from certain players is, "I want it to remain exclusive, but not so exclusive that it excludes me"... a response that has the virtue of honesty even if it falls a bit short in the realm of objectivity.
For me, I'll get my Death Lobster running the race. If somebody else gets it by completing another activity, cool. That takes nothing away from the (minimal) effort I expended. Maybe the new activity will be more fun than the race and nobody will do the race anymore. That would be awesome -- not because I have any axe to grind against the race, but because it would mean that more people are having more FUN. Remember fun? It's sort of the point of playing games.
It's supposed to be a game. That means it's supposed to present a challenge. It's supposed to have a goal and rules for how to achieve that goal. And if you can't follow the rules and reach the goal, then you are supposed to lose.
A game is not supposed to let you win just because you "gave it your best shot." Not unless you're playing against your mom.
Have you heard of any blind people playing Star Trek Online? Can blind people play Star Trek Online? Is the fact that they can't a sign that it was designed to exclude a small number of people from playing it at all?
To make the point that forcing the AMC to put in ramps at the hut was a good thing, students from UNH carried a friend, bound to his wheelchair, up the mountain so he could use the ramp. The real duh moment was, when they got to the hut, why did they have to put him down at the base of the stairs? They could carry him all the way up the mountain, but they couldn't carry him up a single flight of stairs?
In general, I think the ADA is a great thing, in fact I've fought to make my workplace more ADA compliant, but there comes a time when accommodations are just over the top. A video game that requires a level of hand-eye coordination, accommodating those without? No. I will continue to call out those who decide to judge the level of someone's disability, but along the same lines, Cryptic should not have to make such a discernment either.
Do you find Fastest Game challenging? I don't. I win it every time, unless I'm severely distracted. And no matter how fast I finish, I get exactly the same participation trophy as everybody else -- except for a small group of people who find it an insurmountable obstacle.
I'm just not seeing any significant damage to the race event if there's an alternate method of earning tokens that doesn't involve twitch skill... unless the alternate activity is more fun and engaging, but even in that case, more fun is a good outcome.
I'm more "upset" (while not being upset) that I can't get the older ships but oh well, no biggie. Honestly that is low on my priority list and doesn't matter.
Blame the 'everyone gets a trophy' brigade of politically correct <irrelevant vulgarism is irrelevant - Edited out>
No need to get mean. I honestly have no problem with ppl saying they have a disability which prevents them from completing it. And I am all for accommodating those people in real life, so they can participate as full citizens. But this is a minor race, inside a winter event of a computer game (one for which you are logically required to possess some motor skills when you sign up, as piloting a ship is kinda what this game is all about); so, in that light, I don't think it's really all that fair to blame Cryptic for not bending over backwards to change the race.
Also, as i said before, after a fashion, everyone is disabled. And by that I just mean that, say, my not being able to do 75k+ is, linea recta, the result of some lousy hand-eye coordination on my end. I have the best gear out there, know how to fit properly; it's just that I get too confused when too much is going on at the time, and start fouling up my timings. My point being: this holds true, to varying degrees, for everyone in this game (for all, but the very top-ranking player, of course). But I don't go and blame Cryptic for my shortcomings. Way it is is the way it is. So, I 'solve' this, in part, just by upgrading everything of value to Epic. That costs me a lot. And here endeth my long-winded point: do likewise for the race. If you can't beat it regularly, just shell out a bit extra and spend some Lobi. Cryptic really *did* offer you a way to get the ship, after all: y'all just don't like the answer.
that's great you got it nailed because you would practice, so how much did you have to practice the summer and anniversary ship mission?
if the answer is not at all then I rest my case, why should the winter ship mission be the only one that requires practice, does that not itself prove that this mission is more challenging then the others for no good reason.
why is it on this very forum there is a sticky guide for the fastest game on ice, I see no sticky for the summer and anniversary ship mission.
I am not saying everything in the game should be made easy peasy but all of these ship events should be of equal measure, if you don't need to practice and have how to stickys for the other missions then you should not need this for the winter offering either.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I'll make one more post and then I'm checking out of this thread.
EDIT: The TL:DR version: We shouldn't compare apples and oranges here. Read on the WoT to find out why...
Let's look at the differences between the summer floater course and the winter ice race and ask ourselves the question why the time limits are different. Actually, let's start with the more basic question... Why any time limit at all?
If the only point of the activity was completion, there wouldn't be a time limit. It would also barely qualify as gameplay, and not necessarily entertaining gameplay at that. The time limit has a practical purpose. It creates the expectation that this activity is a challenge. You not only have to complete it, but you have to work under some pressure to complete it within a certain time frame. If nothing else, it's a daily event so they'd need to impose some kind of time limit regardless.
The other point of a time limit is to delineate how much time the Devs expect you to be engaged in a given activity. This is a benchmark that applies directly to their metrics that gauge participation level. This is far from the only activity that has a time limit; the queues do, too. Heck, all of the other summer and winter activities have a time limit, too. So the ice race is not an anomaly at all.
Now let's get back to the difference in the time limit between the two activities.
First off, the Summer and Winter events are very different in tone. The theme of the Summer event is R&R: Recreation and Relaxation. (You're taking a vacation.) The theme of the Winter event is C&C: Celebration and Competition. The Summer event shouldn't feel hectic or competitive, and doesn't with the one exception of the powerboard race. But that's an actual race. The floater course is supposed to be a test of skill; there's no opponent. This is an excellent explanation for why so much more time is given for the floater course. But it's not the only difference.
A second difference between the two activities is the fact that one is more spread out than the other. The ice race only occurs in one specific area of the map. The floater course takes place in three random locations over the entire Risa resort map. You need more time to complete the floater course, taking travel time into account.
The third difference is sort of related to the second, in that the boundaries of the activity are much different. On Risa, the floater course takes place over a wide area in three dimensions and if there is any boundary that disqualifies you I haven't encountered it. It is highly unlikely that any other player will obscure your view, distract you, or otherwise get in your way. The ice race takes place in two dimensions and has intentional boundaries that keep it an actual race. If anyone could run it whenever they wanted, I guarantee you'd see multiple people trying to run it at the same time, getting in each others' way, and making it generally more difficult. The time limit helps to enforce a certain pace of getting each player through the course individually.
There are more differences, but I'll stop there. The point is that the time limits have a purpose. You might successfully argue that the time limit for the ice race is too short for many players due to the difficulty of staying in the boundaries and that it should be increased somewhat by a modest amount. You're going to be less successful making a case that the time limits should be effectively removed or negligible.
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