The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
It was a sandbox. Not a very good one but I like my sand okay.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
It was a sandbox. Not a very good one but I like my sand okay.
No it wasn't. A sandbox is an open world you can explore and interact with. Star clusters were small instanced patrol missions that had absolutely no impact on the game world. They were literally the exact *opposite* of what sandbox gameplay means.
Now, for the record, I actually LIKED the star cluster missions and were pissed they took them out. But that doesn't change the fact that they were NOT exploration and were NOT sandbox gameplay.
I think one of the first times I felt like there was exploration was at New Romulas. A largely unexplored planet that was just full of interesting things to see and interact it. It had it's discoveries and dangers and it really is one of the aspects of the game I wish they would continue in other worlds. Nimbus felt that way as well for me, just being able to go all over that desert wasteland was one of the high points for me in STO.
Honestly I think it's a double edged sword when it comes to the exploration part of sto. You have to add some element of danger, some sort of mystery or conflict in order to make the mission interesting.
I have played some foundry missions that I thoroughly enjoyed although it's been a while but it is something I would be willing to try out again.
"There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life." - Ten Bears (Will Sampson)
The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
and I gotta ask how many of the people who keep asking for that terrible excuse for a system back. go into new FEs and just look around to see whats there. I'm betting few and I'm a TRIBBLE and an idiot for even suggesting such a thing.
For me the missions were never the point. Yes, they were rubbish, I put a lot of effort into trying to persude Cryptic to improve them; but what really mattered was the clusters themselves. You don't 'explore' by browsing through a list and picking what you want to do next: you explore by going out there and just seeing what you find. That is what seperated the clusters from all the other content in this game; and that is what made them exploration.
so if someone blindfolded me then took me to my own bedroom that would be exploration, but if you choose yourself to go to your bedroom its not.
I guess in that respect all cryptic needs to do is add a [play a random mission] button and you would be happy.
Post edited by bobbydazlers on
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
and I gotta ask how many of the people who keep asking for that terrible excuse for a system back. go into new FEs and just look around to see whats there. I'm betting few and I'm a TRIBBLE and an idiot for even suggesting such a thing.
For me the missions were never the point. Yes, they were rubbish, I put a lot of effort into trying to persude Cryptic to improve them; but what really mattered was the clusters themselves. You don't 'explore' by browsing through a list and picking what you want to do next: you explore by going out there and just seeing what you find. That is what seperated the clusters from all the other content in this game; and that is what made them exploration.
so if someone blindfolded me then took me to my own bedroom that would be exploration, but if you choose yourself to go to your bedroom its not.
I guess in that respect all cryptic needs to do is add a [play a random mission] button and you would be happy.
Not if they took you there, but I suppose if you made your own way there while blindfolded it could be considered exploration from a certain point of view. You would after all essentially be rediscovering your surroundings via senses you don't normally rely on for navigation.
And no, a 'random' button wouldn't count. 'These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to sit in one place hitting this button over and over again to see what happens'... not quite the same is it?
The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
and I gotta ask how many of the people who keep asking for that terrible excuse for a system back. go into new FEs and just look around to see whats there. I'm betting few and I'm a TRIBBLE and an idiot for even suggesting such a thing.
For me the missions were never the point. Yes, they were rubbish, I put a lot of effort into trying to persude Cryptic to improve them; but what really mattered was the clusters themselves. You don't 'explore' by browsing through a list and picking what you want to do next: you explore by going out there and just seeing what you find. That is what seperated the clusters from all the other content in this game; and that is what made them exploration.
so if someone blindfolded me then took me to my own bedroom that would be exploration, but if you choose yourself to go to your bedroom its not.
I guess in that respect all cryptic needs to do is add a [play a random mission] button and you would be happy.
Not if they took you there, but I suppose if you made your own way there while blindfolded it could be considered exploration from a certain point of view. You would after all essentially be rediscovering your surroundings via senses you don't normally rely on for navigation.
And no, a 'random' button wouldn't count. 'These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to sit in one place hitting this button over and over again to see what happens'... not quite the same is it?
so because you are flying to a small white dot on a mostly black background and seeing what happens instead of clicking a 'random' button and seeing what happens that makes all the difference.
you do realise that flying to the dot was just for show and the random mission you got wasn't chosen until you clicked the enter system button which was cryptics version of a [play a random mission] button.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
and I gotta ask how many of the people who keep asking for that terrible excuse for a system back. go into new FEs and just look around to see whats there. I'm betting few and I'm a TRIBBLE and an idiot for even suggesting such a thing.
For me the missions were never the point. Yes, they were rubbish, I put a lot of effort into trying to persude Cryptic to improve them; but what really mattered was the clusters themselves. You don't 'explore' by browsing through a list and picking what you want to do next: you explore by going out there and just seeing what you find. That is what seperated the clusters from all the other content in this game; and that is what made them exploration.
so if someone blindfolded me then took me to my own bedroom that would be exploration, but if you choose yourself to go to your bedroom its not.
I guess in that respect all cryptic needs to do is add a [play a random mission] button and you would be happy.
Not if they took you there, but I suppose if you made your own way there while blindfolded it could be considered exploration from a certain point of view. You would after all essentially be rediscovering your surroundings via senses you don't normally rely on for navigation.
And no, a 'random' button wouldn't count. 'These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to sit in one place hitting this button over and over again to see what happens'... not quite the same is it?
so because you are flying to a small white dot on a mostly black background and seeing what happens instead of clicking a 'random' button and seeing what happens that makes all the difference.
you do realise that flying to the dot was just for show and the random mission you got wasn't chosen until you clicked the enter system button which was cryptics version of a [play a random mission] button.
Yep. The journey is just as important as the destination. The very act of going looking was what made the difference.
Look at it this way, with the clusters gone there are no longer many good reasons to actually get in your ship and go somewhere. Once you are done playing through the missions, you could experience almost the entire endgame of STO from ESD. Factor in transwarp, and sector space is almost completely redundant. That's really why the loss of the clusters was such a blow to some of us. It doesn't matter that the missions were garbage; what matters is that it just doesn't feel like a Star Trek game anymore (well... DS9 maybe. DS9 with Gorn jokes ).
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
(...)
This here is true. Every time someone suggests foundry missions as a substitute for Exploration doesn't really grasp the cocnept of Exploration. It's not about having a "story" to play, it's about facing the unknown. Random factors you cannot predict but have to adapt to on the spot. The old system did a lot good in that regard, sadly it was just left to rot without any attention whatsoever which is why it lacked so much quality wise. If they had invested in that system it could have gone somewhere.
Star Trek may be about story-driven drama and social commentary. That's what the episodes are for. Exploration is what the regular Starfleet in-universe cast is supposed to do and there isn't always a philosophical inspired story behind it, you just go to places you don't know and have no idea what you find and sometimes get really excited, sometimes it's average and sometimes you encounter trouble.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The truth is, STO never really had exploration. Regardless of what they called them, the star cluster missions were PATROLS, not exploration. So they can't give "back" something we never had in the first place.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
and I gotta ask how many of the people who keep asking for that terrible excuse for a system back. go into new FEs and just look around to see whats there. I'm betting few and I'm a TRIBBLE and an idiot for even suggesting such a thing.
For me the missions were never the point. Yes, they were rubbish, I put a lot of effort into trying to persude Cryptic to improve them; but what really mattered was the clusters themselves. You don't 'explore' by browsing through a list and picking what you want to do next: you explore by going out there and just seeing what you find. That is what seperated the clusters from all the other content in this game; and that is what made them exploration.
so if someone blindfolded me then took me to my own bedroom that would be exploration, but if you choose yourself to go to your bedroom its not.
I guess in that respect all cryptic needs to do is add a [play a random mission] button and you would be happy.
Not if they took you there, but I suppose if you made your own way there while blindfolded it could be considered exploration from a certain point of view. You would after all essentially be rediscovering your surroundings via senses you don't normally rely on for navigation.
And no, a 'random' button wouldn't count. 'These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to sit in one place hitting this button over and over again to see what happens'... not quite the same is it?
so because you are flying to a small white dot on a mostly black background and seeing what happens instead of clicking a 'random' button and seeing what happens that makes all the difference.
you do realise that flying to the dot was just for show and the random mission you got wasn't chosen until you clicked the enter system button which was cryptics version of a [play a random mission] button.
Yep. The journey is just as important as the destination. The very act of going looking was what made the difference.
Look at it this way, with the clusters gone there are no longer many good reasons to actually get in your ship and go somewhere. Once you are done playing through the missions, you could experience almost the entire endgame of STO from ESD. Factor in transwarp, and sector space is almost completely redundant. That's really why the loss of the clusters was such a blow to some of us. It doesn't matter that the missions were garbage; what matters is that it just doesn't feel like a Star Trek game anymore (well... DS9 maybe. DS9 with Gorn jokes ).
but you could still have the fly to with a [play a random mission] button, just after clicking the button you would fly to the system just as you do when you select a mission yourself from the list, the only difference being you would not know for sure where you were going and what mission you was going to play until you got there.
that's unless you instinctively know where every mission in the game is located.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
(...)
This here is true. Every time someone suggests foundry missions as a substitute for Exploration doesn't really grasp the cocnept of Exploration. It's not about having a "story" to play, it's about facing the unknown. Random factors you cannot predict but have to adapt to on the spot. The old system did a lot good in that regard, sadly it was just left to rot without any attention whatsoever which is why it lacked so much quality wise. If they had invested in that system it could have gone somewhere.
If you don't read the Foundry mission's intro text, you also don't know what you will get. You only get a title. And what you get is even less predictable then the old genesis, with its 10 mission templates or however many it were.
But it's not like I don't want an exploration system. I really just don't know how one could pull somethnig off that is really engaging. But maybe I am overthinking it to some extent.
Maybe the exploration system could really be:
- 10 Mission Templates with branches based on NPC factions (if any)
- Reputation System to go along with it
- Maybe a server-wide exploration metric (something similar to the Delta Recruit system, but lasting longer, and maybe with a bit more modest benefits)
- Instead of a completely featureless space map, it should probably just create anomalies in space. (There are now dynamically created crafting nodes in sector space. One could expand on that and put a mission behind that.)
Then also create a few exploration type story missions that focus on learning more about a new sector of space. Elements of the story are re-used in the mission templates.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
(...)
This here is true. Every time someone suggests foundry missions as a substitute for Exploration doesn't really grasp the cocnept of Exploration. It's not about having a "story" to play, it's about facing the unknown. Random factors you cannot predict but have to adapt to on the spot. The old system did a lot good in that regard, sadly it was just left to rot without any attention whatsoever which is why it lacked so much quality wise. If they had invested in that system it could have gone somewhere.
Star Trek may be about story-driven drama and social commentary. That's what the episodes are for. Exploration is what the regular Starfleet in-universe cast is supposed to do and there isn't always a philosophical inspired story behind it, you just go to places you don't know and have no idea what you find and sometimes get really excited, sometimes it's average and sometimes you encounter trouble.
Excellent! Someone who is better than me at words understands and explains.
personally i think there is some confusion on what exploration means.
(...)
This here is true. Every time someone suggests foundry missions as a substitute for Exploration doesn't really grasp the cocnept of Exploration. It's not about having a "story" to play, it's about facing the unknown. Random factors you cannot predict but have to adapt to on the spot. The old system did a lot good in that regard, sadly it was just left to rot without any attention whatsoever which is why it lacked so much quality wise. If they had invested in that system it could have gone somewhere.
Star Trek may be about story-driven drama and social commentary. That's what the episodes are for. Exploration is what the regular Starfleet in-universe cast is supposed to do and there isn't always a philosophical inspired story behind it, you just go to places you don't know and have no idea what you find and sometimes get really excited, sometimes it's average and sometimes you encounter trouble.
Excellent! Someone who is better than me at words understands and explains.
that's ok providing the missions are fairly high quality, there was nothing worse then flying into a system or beaming to a planet only to find scan these items and leave rubbish we used to get.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
If you don't read the Foundry mission's intro text, you also don't know what you will get. You only get a title. And what you get is even less predictable then the old genesis, with its 10 mission templates or however many it were.
(...)
But you are still playing someones story and not your own.
To understand what at least I understand and expect from a Exploration system you have to understand for example early days of video games. No fancy, no story but all the excitement of having your own experiences - even losing a game is an experience worth having (unlike today where games are mostly designed not to frustrate you).
The way I imagine a Exploration system is based on a few base mechanics.
1) Randomly generated maps, using a system comparable to what games like "Diablo" or "UFO" used to create random maps and dungeons. You effectively never see the same map twice and sometimes the random generator produces funny stuff but "back int he days" discovering those oddities was also part of the fun and experience you have.
2) Template of possible mission types and extensive use of the alien generator to create alien species on-the-fly. Of course there is a set amount of mission types like answer a distress call, escort a freighter, raid a transport - simply imagine what DOFF missions offer and imagine you could actually play those. The adversaries or allies you deal with however are randomly generated, not only in visuals but also in resistances to weapons, tactics, weapons etc. Interaction with those aliens can of course only work in limited terms of certain dialogues but there can be a lot of variety written in there.
3) A continously maintained exploration log. This is actually the mechanic tying everything together - this log collects statistics and data of your personal "five-year-journey" and keeps track of your missions, your score and what aliens you encounter. It's like a memory for the system to expand your journey on. For example if you help aliengen species 98253 at one point, they may return later to help you in random events. You develop a feude with aliengen species 47284 and develop your own "nemesis". It keeps track of colonies you supported and may return missions regarding those and so on. If you happen to run in a dead-end because enemies get to tough or they annoy you you should be able to "wipe" the log and start over at any time.
I know brainstorming is easy. But in principle this is what I imagine - an interactive DOFF/Admirality system, basically, allowing you to develop your own story.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
"Exploration didn't live up to our high standards of gameplay"
I laughed myself to tears on that one. Nothing in the game has ever been anything but console click or spacebar spamming. Neither has anything in the game ever worked without massive bugs, mostly ignored too so that was hilarious.
If you look at upgrading, crafting and admirality, you will notice the concept of development.
a. monetize
b. zero production cost; no animations, no models, no gameplay
c. timegates
d. singleplayer text window
So if you can cook a proposal that has no animations, no models and is essentially a singleplayer text window with timegates they can sell, THEN we can have exploration again
"Exploration didn't live up to our high standards of gameplay"
I laughed myself to tears on that one. Nothing in the game has ever been anything but console click or spacebar spamming. Neither has anything in the game ever worked without massive bugs, mostly ignored too so that was hilarious.
If you look at upgrading, crafting and admirality, you will notice the concept of development.
a. monetize
b. zero production cost; no animations, no models, no gameplay
c. timegates
d. singleplayer text window
So if you can cook a proposal that has no animations, no models and is essentially a singleplayer text window with timegates they can sell, THEN we can have exploration again
Sandboxes involve an open gameplay format, not closed linear missions with randomized text and character icons. The old exploration system WAS just a patrol scheme which Cryptic did provide a replacement for via Delta Rising patrols. More variety within and between missions, more substantial writing, better gameplay structure, inclusion in the sector block, a connection to the rest of the STO universe. Any way you look those are superior pieces of video game content. And yet they don't count as "exploration." Why? Because the idea in general (including the old system) does not satisfy the definition. You need a different system entirely (such as what we already have in the Foundry-sector system, like it or not).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
To understand what at least I understand and expect from a Exploration system you have to understand for example early days of video games. No fancy, no story but all the excitement of having your own experiences - even losing a game is an experience worth having (unlike today where games are mostly designed not to frustrate you).
Not that I wouldn't like the system you proposed but the principle of citing a plot as a bad thing for an exploration system is a little questionable. Exploration is almost by definition not about you, it's about going somewhere and discovering new things. More often than not that involves people, and people involves events that you don't entirely control. There you get plot, characters, and so on which is basically how the Star Trek TV series worked. However to make that work well you can't rely on a random number generator because that isn't going to appreciate the uses of say, a dramatic pause, before setting up a climax. Its not even going to appreciate what a climax is or give any kind of pay off in the resolution. It's just going to throw down the specified number of targets for you to grind through.
As a replacement for patrols I think you've got something there, but I definitely wouldn't throw the "exploration" label on that either.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
To understand what at least I understand and expect from a Exploration system you have to understand for example early days of video games. No fancy, no story but all the excitement of having your own experiences - even losing a game is an experience worth having (unlike today where games are mostly designed not to frustrate you).
Not that I wouldn't like the system you proposed but the principle of citing a plot as a bad thing is a little questionable. Exploration is generally not about you, it's about going somewhere and discovering new things. More often than not that involves people, and people involves events that you don't entirely control. There you get plot, characters, and so on which is basically how the Star Trek TV series worked. However to make that work well you can't rely on a random number generator because that isn't going to appreciate the uses of say, a dramatic pause, before setting up a climax. Its not even going to appreciate that. It's just going to throw down the specified number of targets for you to grind through.
As a replacement for patrols I think you've got something there, but I definitely wouldn't throw the "exploration" label on that either.
It's not that plot is a bad thing, it's that it isn't necessary for exploration. In missions (including foundry ones) plot is kind of the point; go here, do this, talk to that guy, shoot his little dog. Exploration should be unscripted. Interesting plots and characters might be nice things to find from time to time while exploring, but they aren't required, and don't have anything to do with exploration itself.
I think at the end of the day everyone would like to have exploration return but it has to be done right.
there needs to be a compete sector filled with say 100 different fixed star systems and anomalies and each star systems and anomalies needs say 10 different and unique scenarios to happen when you enter there, that would give you 1000 totally different possible exploration missions to play through.
each time you visit a system you have been to before even though the system you have entered will be the same you will get one of the scenarios in random order but also the game needs to know which of the 10 scenarios you have played so you don't get the same scenarios again until you have played them all, then the list of scenarios for that system will reset so you can revisit there again to play through the scenarios in hopefully a different order.
of course the scenarios don't have to be anything like a usual story mission just mini missions, things like locate and rescue a group of stranded crew from a downed spacecraft or fend off some pirates who are attacking a cargo transport or resetting some damaged subspace relay stations and such.
if the devs think there are any foundry missions that can be used to fit a scenario I am sure the authors would be glad to have them used in this capacity so this could lighten the load when it comes to creating scenarios for each system, they could even rope in foundry authors to assist in creating some of the scenario.
if they could come up with an exploration system like that it would be awesome.
with 1000 different missions to play and replay there would be enough there to be classed as about as close to true exploration as you are ever likely to get.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Creating an expansive universe for exploring like Eve Online for example is an extremely difficult task for a small team of DEV'S. Ingenuity will have to save them here.
Hopefully the new Star Trek series coming in the next year or so will bolster the popularity and the game can get a larger budget. Even so Cryptic is doing remarkable things with what little they have.
people asking for more exploration say no. probably cause cryptic already is trying this and as you can see it didn't work.
I think the most reasonable answer is in the Foundry... but the Foundry UI simply isn't optimized for the sheer volume of missions created. The "Top 3" and Spotlight additions were a step in the right direction, but they relied on a flawed rating system. Because of this, only Parts 3 and 5 out of a 6-part series (and kill accolade farms) are ever discovered by non-Foundry users.
We need a better way of categorizing and searching for Foundry missions for individuals that don't frequent the Foundry sub-forums. Hell, I know of at least a half dozen amazing missions that aren't available to most players because they can't get enough reviews to move from the "Review" tab to the "Search" tab. It's sad that good authors have to spam their new missions for weeks, even months, just to get the minimum 9 reviews required to be searchable.
The moment you want something in exploration to happen that is different from "interact with object X" or "kill X enemies", someone needs to start scripting a mission. You can try to randomize elements, but creating something that actually seems consistent will be difficult without a strong story in mind.
If you encounter an alien ship, you can try to shoot it or talk with it, for example.
But what do you talk about? What do these aliens want, or what do you want from the aliens? And what happens the next time you meet them? All that requires writing the possible dialog options and responses. We don't have any computer systems that can emulate human or alien behaviour.
Even if there are no aliens involved, just the responses of your bridge officers like "Captain, we've detected a [TECHNOBABBLE]" require writing.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
As others have stated, having a true exploration system would be an immense undertaking. To do it properly, it would probably involve drafting the system and then building the rest of the game around it in order to make it feel legitimate.
Obviously, we can't have that. It wouldn't make any financial sense for Cryptic/PWE to put resources into a system without gimping it with poor monetisation mechanics. There have been plenty of player suggestions in the past, mine goes something like this, akin to FTL in some ways:
You reach an entry point from the side of a sector block (like the old exploration blocks) and you have a astrometrics style UI where you can chose branching options to reach the next block which could have higher rewards etc. The issue is, without it being another "click and wait" system like DOFF's and the Admiralty it would still require significant investment for the various scenarios you would come across unless it also took the best of UGC and placed those missions in there instead. I haven't explained it very well most likely, but yeah... going to be a hard nut to crack and do a good job to get real exploration in STO.
I did really enjoy the latest FE though, was cool doing "sciencey" stuff with stars and anomalous readings etc with just the right amount of pew pew. Need more missions like that! Although, it's a shame they went full TARDIS with the NPC ship lol "it's bigger on the inside!".
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
No there isn't. I'm sorry that I have taste and you do not.
Have you ever played the Purity series? Or that one I think RogueEnterprise did which had choices to bring back ships from the previous mission if you had the code? Seem to remember one was for a Cardiassian ship which you encountered in the previous episode.
They're actually really good, seriously there are some real gems amongst the trash in the Foundry.
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
I'm 100% with the OP. give us back our exploration system. For those of you who don't like it? You're not required to play it. that simple.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Comments
It was a sandbox. Not a very good one but I like my sand okay.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I don't miss it.
Beam down, do a single menial task then call it a day.
I just yawned thinking about it.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
No it wasn't. A sandbox is an open world you can explore and interact with. Star clusters were small instanced patrol missions that had absolutely no impact on the game world. They were literally the exact *opposite* of what sandbox gameplay means.
Now, for the record, I actually LIKED the star cluster missions and were pissed they took them out. But that doesn't change the fact that they were NOT exploration and were NOT sandbox gameplay.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
*shrug* The thought of grinding the queues over and over gives me a similar feeling. Each to their own.
Honestly I think it's a double edged sword when it comes to the exploration part of sto. You have to add some element of danger, some sort of mystery or conflict in order to make the mission interesting.
I have played some foundry missions that I thoroughly enjoyed although it's been a while but it is something I would be willing to try out again.
so if someone blindfolded me then took me to my own bedroom that would be exploration, but if you choose yourself to go to your bedroom its not.
I guess in that respect all cryptic needs to do is add a [play a random mission] button and you would be happy.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Not if they took you there, but I suppose if you made your own way there while blindfolded it could be considered exploration from a certain point of view. You would after all essentially be rediscovering your surroundings via senses you don't normally rely on for navigation.
And no, a 'random' button wouldn't count. 'These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to sit in one place hitting this button over and over again to see what happens'... not quite the same is it?
so because you are flying to a small white dot on a mostly black background and seeing what happens instead of clicking a 'random' button and seeing what happens that makes all the difference.
you do realise that flying to the dot was just for show and the random mission you got wasn't chosen until you clicked the enter system button which was cryptics version of a [play a random mission] button.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Yep. The journey is just as important as the destination. The very act of going looking was what made the difference.
Look at it this way, with the clusters gone there are no longer many good reasons to actually get in your ship and go somewhere. Once you are done playing through the missions, you could experience almost the entire endgame of STO from ESD. Factor in transwarp, and sector space is almost completely redundant. That's really why the loss of the clusters was such a blow to some of us. It doesn't matter that the missions were garbage; what matters is that it just doesn't feel like a Star Trek game anymore (well... DS9 maybe. DS9 with Gorn jokes
This here is true. Every time someone suggests foundry missions as a substitute for Exploration doesn't really grasp the cocnept of Exploration. It's not about having a "story" to play, it's about facing the unknown. Random factors you cannot predict but have to adapt to on the spot. The old system did a lot good in that regard, sadly it was just left to rot without any attention whatsoever which is why it lacked so much quality wise. If they had invested in that system it could have gone somewhere.
Star Trek may be about story-driven drama and social commentary. That's what the episodes are for. Exploration is what the regular Starfleet in-universe cast is supposed to do and there isn't always a philosophical inspired story behind it, you just go to places you don't know and have no idea what you find and sometimes get really excited, sometimes it's average and sometimes you encounter trouble.
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but you could still have the fly to with a [play a random mission] button, just after clicking the button you would fly to the system just as you do when you select a mission yourself from the list, the only difference being you would not know for sure where you were going and what mission you was going to play until you got there.
that's unless you instinctively know where every mission in the game is located.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
But it's not like I don't want an exploration system. I really just don't know how one could pull somethnig off that is really engaging. But maybe I am overthinking it to some extent.
Maybe the exploration system could really be:
- 10 Mission Templates with branches based on NPC factions (if any)
- Reputation System to go along with it
- Maybe a server-wide exploration metric (something similar to the Delta Recruit system, but lasting longer, and maybe with a bit more modest benefits)
- Instead of a completely featureless space map, it should probably just create anomalies in space. (There are now dynamically created crafting nodes in sector space. One could expand on that and put a mission behind that.)
Then also create a few exploration type story missions that focus on learning more about a new sector of space. Elements of the story are re-used in the mission templates.
Excellent! Someone who is better than me at words understands and explains.
that's ok providing the missions are fairly high quality, there was nothing worse then flying into a system or beaming to a planet only to find scan these items and leave rubbish we used to get.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
But you are still playing someones story and not your own.
To understand what at least I understand and expect from a Exploration system you have to understand for example early days of video games. No fancy, no story but all the excitement of having your own experiences - even losing a game is an experience worth having (unlike today where games are mostly designed not to frustrate you).
The way I imagine a Exploration system is based on a few base mechanics.
1) Randomly generated maps, using a system comparable to what games like "Diablo" or "UFO" used to create random maps and dungeons. You effectively never see the same map twice and sometimes the random generator produces funny stuff but "back int he days" discovering those oddities was also part of the fun and experience you have.
2) Template of possible mission types and extensive use of the alien generator to create alien species on-the-fly. Of course there is a set amount of mission types like answer a distress call, escort a freighter, raid a transport - simply imagine what DOFF missions offer and imagine you could actually play those. The adversaries or allies you deal with however are randomly generated, not only in visuals but also in resistances to weapons, tactics, weapons etc. Interaction with those aliens can of course only work in limited terms of certain dialogues but there can be a lot of variety written in there.
3) A continously maintained exploration log. This is actually the mechanic tying everything together - this log collects statistics and data of your personal "five-year-journey" and keeps track of your missions, your score and what aliens you encounter. It's like a memory for the system to expand your journey on. For example if you help aliengen species 98253 at one point, they may return later to help you in random events. You develop a feude with aliengen species 47284 and develop your own "nemesis". It keeps track of colonies you supported and may return missions regarding those and so on. If you happen to run in a dead-end because enemies get to tough or they annoy you you should be able to "wipe" the log and start over at any time.
I know brainstorming is easy. But in principle this is what I imagine - an interactive DOFF/Admirality system, basically, allowing you to develop your own story.
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I laughed myself to tears on that one. Nothing in the game has ever been anything but console click or spacebar spamming. Neither has anything in the game ever worked without massive bugs, mostly ignored too so that was hilarious.
If you look at upgrading, crafting and admirality, you will notice the concept of development.
a. monetize
b. zero production cost; no animations, no models, no gameplay
c. timegates
d. singleplayer text window
So if you can cook a proposal that has no animations, no models and is essentially a singleplayer text window with timegates they can sell, THEN we can have exploration again
Ugh. Don't say that, it's depressing.
Sandboxes involve an open gameplay format, not closed linear missions with randomized text and character icons. The old exploration system WAS just a patrol scheme which Cryptic did provide a replacement for via Delta Rising patrols. More variety within and between missions, more substantial writing, better gameplay structure, inclusion in the sector block, a connection to the rest of the STO universe. Any way you look those are superior pieces of video game content. And yet they don't count as "exploration." Why? Because the idea in general (including the old system) does not satisfy the definition. You need a different system entirely (such as what we already have in the Foundry-sector system, like it or not).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Not that I wouldn't like the system you proposed but the principle of citing a plot as a bad thing for an exploration system is a little questionable. Exploration is almost by definition not about you, it's about going somewhere and discovering new things. More often than not that involves people, and people involves events that you don't entirely control. There you get plot, characters, and so on which is basically how the Star Trek TV series worked. However to make that work well you can't rely on a random number generator because that isn't going to appreciate the uses of say, a dramatic pause, before setting up a climax. Its not even going to appreciate what a climax is or give any kind of pay off in the resolution. It's just going to throw down the specified number of targets for you to grind through.
As a replacement for patrols I think you've got something there, but I definitely wouldn't throw the "exploration" label on that either.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
It's not that plot is a bad thing, it's that it isn't necessary for exploration. In missions (including foundry ones) plot is kind of the point; go here, do this, talk to that guy, shoot his little dog. Exploration should be unscripted. Interesting plots and characters might be nice things to find from time to time while exploring, but they aren't required, and don't have anything to do with exploration itself.
there needs to be a compete sector filled with say 100 different fixed star systems and anomalies and each star systems and anomalies needs say 10 different and unique scenarios to happen when you enter there, that would give you 1000 totally different possible exploration missions to play through.
each time you visit a system you have been to before even though the system you have entered will be the same you will get one of the scenarios in random order but also the game needs to know which of the 10 scenarios you have played so you don't get the same scenarios again until you have played them all, then the list of scenarios for that system will reset so you can revisit there again to play through the scenarios in hopefully a different order.
of course the scenarios don't have to be anything like a usual story mission just mini missions, things like locate and rescue a group of stranded crew from a downed spacecraft or fend off some pirates who are attacking a cargo transport or resetting some damaged subspace relay stations and such.
if the devs think there are any foundry missions that can be used to fit a scenario I am sure the authors would be glad to have them used in this capacity so this could lighten the load when it comes to creating scenarios for each system, they could even rope in foundry authors to assist in creating some of the scenario.
if they could come up with an exploration system like that it would be awesome.
with 1000 different missions to play and replay there would be enough there to be classed as about as close to true exploration as you are ever likely to get.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Hopefully the new Star Trek series coming in the next year or so will bolster the popularity and the game can get a larger budget. Even so Cryptic is doing remarkable things with what little they have.
people asking for more exploration say no. probably cause cryptic already is trying this and as you can see it didn't work.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
We need a better way of categorizing and searching for Foundry missions for individuals that don't frequent the Foundry sub-forums. Hell, I know of at least a half dozen amazing missions that aren't available to most players because they can't get enough reviews to move from the "Review" tab to the "Search" tab. It's sad that good authors have to spam their new missions for weeks, even months, just to get the minimum 9 reviews required to be searchable.
If you encounter an alien ship, you can try to shoot it or talk with it, for example.
But what do you talk about? What do these aliens want, or what do you want from the aliens? And what happens the next time you meet them? All that requires writing the possible dialog options and responses. We don't have any computer systems that can emulate human or alien behaviour.
Even if there are no aliens involved, just the responses of your bridge officers like "Captain, we've detected a [TECHNOBABBLE]" require writing.
Obviously, we can't have that. It wouldn't make any financial sense for Cryptic/PWE to put resources into a system without gimping it with poor monetisation mechanics. There have been plenty of player suggestions in the past, mine goes something like this, akin to FTL in some ways:
You reach an entry point from the side of a sector block (like the old exploration blocks) and you have a astrometrics style UI where you can chose branching options to reach the next block which could have higher rewards etc. The issue is, without it being another "click and wait" system like DOFF's and the Admiralty it would still require significant investment for the various scenarios you would come across unless it also took the best of UGC and placed those missions in there instead. I haven't explained it very well most likely, but yeah... going to be a hard nut to crack and do a good job to get real exploration in STO.
I did really enjoy the latest FE though, was cool doing "sciencey" stuff with stars and anomalous readings etc with just the right amount of pew pew. Need more missions like that! Although, it's a shame they went full TARDIS with the NPC ship lol "it's bigger on the inside!".
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Have you ever played the Purity series? Or that one I think RogueEnterprise did which had choices to bring back ships from the previous mission if you had the code? Seem to remember one was for a Cardiassian ship which you encountered in the previous episode.
They're actually really good, seriously there are some real gems amongst the trash in the Foundry.
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"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."