Here is the problem with exploration: if you want it to have any kind of STORY, that story has to be written. All dialog has to be written. Meaning, none of that can be randomized, or the dialog won't make any sense(Borg 3rd Dynasty). Yes, you can randomize environments, but all you can do in a randomized environment without a story is scan and kill. So if people want to scan and kill, Cryptic could definitely give us that. But I have a feeling people would say that isn't what they wanted; they wanted to discover new species and make first contact. Well guess what? That's story, which has to be manually written. And that is exactly what the newest FE is.
The STORY is in my head. I know some people don't like the idea of players being able to explore randomly generated content while using their imagination, but if you don't like the random content I have good news, you don't have to play it.
And if dev time were not finite, that would be fine. However, the reality is they have to choose between developing your randomly generated content system and doing something else. So don't be surprised if they decide to spend their limited time on something they think will appeal to the most customers.
Calling bull on that. We HAD a system they REMOVED. they did not HAVE to remove it.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I would personally be happy with new adventure zones like New Romulus and Nimbus, with random missions (10 small missions given randomly). The map makers can put all their talent in creating these areas. Orias is a good example, this map is just amazing, but too small <- I want more
Here is the problem with exploration: if you want it to have any kind of STORY, that story has to be written. All dialog has to be written. Meaning, none of that can be randomized, or the dialog won't make any sense(Borg 3rd Dynasty). Yes, you can randomize environments, but all you can do in a randomized environment without a story is scan and kill. So if people want to scan and kill, Cryptic could definitely give us that. But I have a feeling people would say that isn't what they wanted; they wanted to discover new species and make first contact. Well guess what? That's story, which has to be manually written. And that is exactly what the newest FE is.
The STORY is in my head. I know some people don't like the idea of players being able to explore randomly generated content while using their imagination, but if you don't like the random content I have good news, you don't have to play it.
And if dev time were not finite, that would be fine. However, the reality is they have to choose between developing your randomly generated content system and doing something else. So don't be surprised if they decide to spend their limited time on something they think will appeal to the most customers.
Calling bull on that. We HAD a system they REMOVED. they did not HAVE to remove it.
I agree, but what's done is done. They aren't going to add that same system back because they thought it made their game look bad. If they add any randomly generated system again, it's going to be something new. And then they would have to choose between doing that and doing something else. Hence the issue I mentioned.
Sandboxes involve an open gameplay format, not closed linear missions with randomized text and character icons. The old exploration system WAS just a patrol scheme which Cryptic did provide a replacement for via Delta Rising patrols. More variety within and between missions, more substantial writing, better gameplay structure, inclusion in the sector block, a connection to the rest of the STO universe. Any way you look those are superior pieces of video game content. And yet they don't count as "exploration." Why? Because the idea in general (including the old system) does not satisfy the definition. You need a different system entirely (such as what we already have in the Foundry-sector system, like it or not).
I like how you snipped the part of my post where I said it wasn't a very good one, solely for the purpose of making a point that doesn't apply to my post.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
It's "uh-mazing" that it's spitting stuff out, but the sheen is quickly wiped away when you start looking more closely at the output. Genesis (and other systems I've seen) were GREAT at outputting something. They were not great at outputting something good.
I guess I really should have quit my day job and been there when you needed me. I'm so sorry.
By now, I think all genesis content has been pulled out of STO, and replaced with newer, hand crafted missions/maps.
Some of the old Federation patrols from launch that you can still access by flying up to specific planets are really reminiscent of exploration cluster missions. I would be surprised if they weren't at least started via the Genesis system.
Yeah well so is youtube, but every pile of sh*t has a few kernels of goodness. The foundry has a lot of well written content and with Tacofangs adding a polishing touch they could make interesting missions that aren't connected to the main plot line. It could severely cut down Cryptics workload and allow them to add staggering amounts of new content.
Adding world/mission autogeneration to an existing engine would not be impossible. However, the creation of the creation system itself is a monumental undertaking. I've seen a few attempts at it, and none have gone well. Genesis being the most fully fleshed out.
After months of development on Genesis, we had a system that could autogenerate a map, yes. However, only maybe 1/5 of those maps would be usable, and EVERY SINGLE ONE had to be touched up by an artist before it was remotely presentable.
There is a lot more subtlety to creating a convincing environment than random placement of objects. You can get away with that to an extent outdoors, but anything made by people has a much more rigid structure to it.
And all of that is even before we get into missions, or dialog, or characters, or lighting.
I'm not saying it's impossible to make a viable system. I'm saying it is tremendously difficult, and after months of development, as someone else stated earlier . . . what does it actually gain us monetarily.
No, money is not the only thing we look at during development.
But we have a choice. After 6 months we can end up with 30 ugly, boring missions, or 5 good, solid, handcrafted missions.
We at Cryptic (and STO Specifically), have tried both ends of that spectrum.
In the future, the pendulum may swing back the other way, but at this time, we find it much more worthwhile to handcraft things.
the most successful randomized map generators were in Diablo 2 and the various Dragon Quest games.
But... what made the D2 system work was "locations". All complex terrain features(such as houses) were built by hand and added to the map as a single unit. Some areas actually had the entire floor plan preset and it was only the details that were random. A few were completely non-random(such as Tristram).
The system used in Dragon Quest never randomized the location of anything other than a boss you needed to kill. But the way it placed objects was rather versatile in that it used pre-defined patterns and used those like tiles on a grid. It also had a system for retheming maps. For example, a layout for a map tile might have a small rock on it somewhere. In one theme it might be mossy, in another clean, and yet another might have it covered with ice. The same is true for every other aspect really, walls, floors, etc... each theme had it's own assortment of terrain features, though some were shared by more than one layout
The Genesis system was able to spit out fully functional missions. However, the mistake most people make, is assuming that it was able to do that in game, on the fly. It was a generator. It would spend some number of minutes (can't remember exactly) putting it all together, and spitting out a map and a mission. But most of those were quite boring/repetitive, and anything that actually made it into the game, required some clean up.
It did save time, but it didn't make very good, or very interesting missions. It was vital to the launch of STO. We could not have launched without it. That said, no one was ever satisfied with the output of the system, and support for it pretty much stopped at launch. By now, I think all genesis content has been pulled out of STO, and replaced with newer, hand crafted missions/maps.
(...)
I get what you are saying, but I for once think that if support would not have been pulled immedeatly you were on to something.
"Good" and "Bad" are subjective terms. But I personally still play games more than 20 years after their release because they provide sheer infinite replayability. I'm an "Explorer" type of gamer, I guess, and I had a jolly good time with the old Star Cluster maps. Yes, some of them became dull after some time, but meeting randomly generated aliens using different tactics was fun to me, exploring maps I didn't know was fun to me. The "5 good handcrafted maps" you mentioned are for all intends and purposes fine and good, but I play them one time. Then I know them and there's little incentive to play them over and over again, people don't play "Infected" for years now forwards and backwards because it is such an insanely good map or mission, same goes (for me at least) for the episodes which are nice and the part I consider most Trek about this game facing a storyline and all, but I can't play those all over again and pretend I have a good time.
Randomization is in my opinion the key for longevity. Even if you had a bunch of handcrafted maps but with random events it would be something. I could stomach "Infected" much better if, for example, each run would randomize the map layout, position the generators differently, allow for random events or something like that. And yes, randomization sometimes means failure is possible - it's part of the experience. Diablo or UFO generated new dungeons and landing sites with every mission - your obkective always was the same, but you always had to adapt your approach, had the chance to find unique and scripted stuff in them but at different times or stepping out of the skyranger you could face a barn with an alien behind the window mowing down your whole party with one reaction shot the moment you set a foot ont he landing bridge - and it was fun.
There's still a portion of players appreciating a good roguelike experience.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I get what you are saying, but I for once think that if support would not have been pulled immedeatly you were on to something.
...
Same. Every wish I ever had for STO's exploration involved just adding more stuff to the clusters. Better stuff for preference; but still...
I confess I've been at something of a loss since they removed them. I got so used to thinking in terms of how to improve the clusters, that I'm not even sure what I want from this game anymore. I'm like a PvPer who has had PvP taken away; I might still like the game, but every thought about how it could be better starts with 'Bring PvP back'.
Comments
Calling bull on that. We HAD a system they REMOVED. they did not HAVE to remove it.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I agree, but what's done is done. They aren't going to add that same system back because they thought it made their game look bad. If they add any randomly generated system again, it's going to be something new. And then they would have to choose between doing that and doing something else. Hence the issue I mentioned.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I like how you snipped the part of my post where I said it wasn't a very good one, solely for the purpose of making a point that doesn't apply to my post.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
No they aren't. Foundry is full of terrible stories with no standards set anywhere.
They are also not particularly "exploratory" for the most part.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I guess I really should have quit my day job and been there when you needed me. I'm so sorry.
Some of the old Federation patrols from launch that you can still access by flying up to specific planets are really reminiscent of exploration cluster missions. I would be surprised if they weren't at least started via the Genesis system.
Yeah well so is youtube, but every pile of sh*t has a few kernels of goodness. The foundry has a lot of well written content and with Tacofangs adding a polishing touch they could make interesting missions that aren't connected to the main plot line. It could severely cut down Cryptics workload and allow them to add staggering amounts of new content.
But... what made the D2 system work was "locations". All complex terrain features(such as houses) were built by hand and added to the map as a single unit. Some areas actually had the entire floor plan preset and it was only the details that were random. A few were completely non-random(such as Tristram).
The system used in Dragon Quest never randomized the location of anything other than a boss you needed to kill. But the way it placed objects was rather versatile in that it used pre-defined patterns and used those like tiles on a grid. It also had a system for retheming maps. For example, a layout for a map tile might have a small rock on it somewhere. In one theme it might be mossy, in another clean, and yet another might have it covered with ice. The same is true for every other aspect really, walls, floors, etc... each theme had it's own assortment of terrain features, though some were shared by more than one layout
My character Tsin'xing
I get what you are saying, but I for once think that if support would not have been pulled immedeatly you were on to something.
"Good" and "Bad" are subjective terms. But I personally still play games more than 20 years after their release because they provide sheer infinite replayability. I'm an "Explorer" type of gamer, I guess, and I had a jolly good time with the old Star Cluster maps. Yes, some of them became dull after some time, but meeting randomly generated aliens using different tactics was fun to me, exploring maps I didn't know was fun to me. The "5 good handcrafted maps" you mentioned are for all intends and purposes fine and good, but I play them one time. Then I know them and there's little incentive to play them over and over again, people don't play "Infected" for years now forwards and backwards because it is such an insanely good map or mission, same goes (for me at least) for the episodes which are nice and the part I consider most Trek about this game facing a storyline and all, but I can't play those all over again and pretend I have a good time.
Randomization is in my opinion the key for longevity. Even if you had a bunch of handcrafted maps but with random events it would be something. I could stomach "Infected" much better if, for example, each run would randomize the map layout, position the generators differently, allow for random events or something like that. And yes, randomization sometimes means failure is possible - it's part of the experience. Diablo or UFO generated new dungeons and landing sites with every mission - your obkective always was the same, but you always had to adapt your approach, had the chance to find unique and scripted stuff in them but at different times or stepping out of the skyranger you could face a barn with an alien behind the window mowing down your whole party with one reaction shot the moment you set a foot ont he landing bridge - and it was fun.
There's still a portion of players appreciating a good roguelike experience.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Same. Every wish I ever had for STO's exploration involved just adding more stuff to the clusters. Better stuff for preference; but still...
I confess I've been at something of a loss since they removed them. I got so used to thinking in terms of how to improve the clusters, that I'm not even sure what I want from this game anymore. I'm like a PvPer who has had PvP taken away; I might still like the game, but every thought about how it could be better starts with 'Bring PvP back'.
Ah well, that's enough whining from me lol.