False. if the federation was weak it would have fallen long ago.
I disagree. The Federation, as a power, is weak. However, it is also backed by incredible technological power and extremely lucky.
It's my headcanon that the MACO's and other such forces only get called up when actual full-scale warfare is breaking out, and that any other time their numbers get rolled back into UFP member nations' forces* and go back to being treated like read-headed stepchildren by the Feddiebear Council and Starfleet.
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
the troops on ar 359 or whatever number it was... weren't they called soldiers?
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
the troops on ar 359 or whatever number it was... weren't they called soldiers?
I can't remember if they were in the story or people just assumed htey were. Going by their division stripes I just thought they were Starfleet personal in heaver tops, same as the Assault Squad from ST5.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
Only after being beaten back with heavy losses for a long time while they struggled to fully mobilize physically and psychologically.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The Federation did not survive the Dominion because of Starfleet. It survived in spite of it.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
Only after being beaten back with heavy losses for a long time while they struggled to fully mobilize physically and psychologically.
True, but it's still ridiculously impressive for a colonisation and exploration flotilla.
The Federation did not survive the Dominion because of Starfleet. It survived in spite of it.
Hahahaha.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
Only after being beaten back with heavy losses for a long time while they struggled to fully mobilize physically and psychologically.
True, but it's still ridiculously impressive for a colonisation and exploration flotilla.
I think that ultimately Starfleet had to face the fact that it was a military and had to maintain the role of a military first. Although STO takes it too far sometimes, this is actually part of why I like the game. Unlike a lot of purists, I feel like the permanent militarization of Starfleet reflected in both the equipment and tactics used in the game reflects a logical outcome of the Dominion War. The people in the highest ranks of the fleet (excepting your character) are often Dominion War vets, or at least remember that time. My theory is, these are not people interested in ceding another campaign to an aggressive power. So while they may still consider exploration a worthy thing to do, they aren't going to put up with confusion over what Starfleet's mission is...and has to be...in order to keep the Federation alive.
Again, I do acknowledge that the game goes to excesses at times, but the core idea of a Starfleet that has experienced a permanent cultural shift and come to terms with its defensive and yes, warfighting mission, is IMO valid.
I know people also like to hate on the JJverse, but the outcomes we see there are similar in nature to STO and also very logical. What the Narada did to the Federation there was probably as severe as Wolf 359, the Battle of Sector 001, and the Dominion War COMBINED. It shouldn't be any wonder that we see a huge jump ahead in offensive weapon technology both in space and on the ground, and an overall more militaristic approach by its officers. I actually suspect the technology in the JJverse 2250s is closer to what we see in the Undiscovered Country era in the Prime Universe, if not pushing towards early 24th century in certain areas. Yes, sometimes things get ridiculous in the JJverse. I don't pretend those movies are perfect by any means. But again, I see a logical outcome in terms of overall culture and mindset (not necessarily the actions of specific people) to the events that occurred and I do think that JJfleet is right on the general principle to make sure they cannot get steamrolled again.
The Federation did not survive the Dominion because of Starfleet. It survived in spite of it.
Hahahaha.
There is an extent to which this is true given their slow mobilization and poor preparedness (both psychological and infrastructurally) before the war began. That said, certain units really did step up to the challenge despite not having been provided what they should've had to fight the war. So if it were me, I would say the Federation survived in spite of the Federation and Starfleet's upper leadership, which was IMO detached from reality until the War smacked them in the face with it.
Having ideals is nice...but if you are unable or unwilling to back them up when forced to do so, those ideals end up not being able to help anybody at all.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I don't think the Federation is weak. It's just not made out to be logical or smart. The Federation at the time of TOS shows and movies was in open hostilities with two races that had the ability to cloak and didn't a) Protect the capitol of the Federation better b) Signed a treaty that said they wouldn't develop cloaks.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My engineer would disagree. Surely, when needed the shields will be raised and the weapons armed. But not giving up your ideals at the first opertunity is true strength. Fighting is the easy way out.
My engineer would disagree. Surely, when needed the shields will be raised and the weapons armed. But not giving up your ideals at the first opertunity is true strength. Fighting is the easy way out.
It's not about giving up ideals. It's about planning ahead. It's about guarding yourself. Like I said they have enemies that can cloak and be over San Fran before they'd even know it. Protecting the capitol and core planets is just smart. How many times will an enemy fly to Earth before someone decides to protect it more?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I think the Federation and Starfleet aren't weak, and they did not stand in their own way.
The Federation and Starfleet were always aimed at maintaining peace and conduct peaceful exploration.
People seem to think that they instead always needed to be set on a full-on military mindset and focus their efforts there. But I think that is wrong. If all you got a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you spend all your resources, all your training, and all your work on having a strong, powerful military where everoyne is always able and wiling to kill whoever seems like a threat, then you will not have peace. YOu will instead try to solve most problems with violence.
So the Federation and Starfleet in "peace-mode" - with its exploration mindset, with people willing to negotiate and allowing enemies to take their first shot - is carries some personal risk (particular for those doing this kind of work), but it minimizes the risk that you take the first shot and cause a war and end up killing a lot of people that didn't need killing if you had been behaving differently.
Starfleet is however quite capable of changing its mindset to get onto the war path. But they do it controlled, and only when necessary. When the Borg threat arrived, Starfleet realized they needed to invest more into military research and build more ships. First Contact proved that Starfleet's reserach worked out, and the Dominion more proved that they were also able to build and mobilize more ships.
The events of AR [whatevernumber] also showed that even a small Starfleet force had the technology, training and mental fortitude to last trough a several month long siege against superior numbers of warriors bred for war.
There are of course risks with this strategy, and I think Starfleet and the Federation are aware of them. But ever strategy comes with risks - you have to decide which risks you are willing to take. And if you're with the "good guys", the risk that you get hurt or killed yourself is preferable to you hurting or killing someone innocent.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
1. Watched the ds9 and yes, they were a mix of starfleet security, command and these soldier uniforms you also see when the Klingons attacked a federation colony.
2. It's fine to want to strive for peace first... but when you get attacked, weakness is just sitting there going "um... wha?"|
If I remember correctly, Starfleet already have defence perimeter at Mars. Of course being Star Trek, they probably never had the prop budget(remember the rubber-foreheads of the week, sometimes it doesn't even have rubber-foreheads...)... Maybe there are some small blurry screenshots?
Speaking of Dominion war, it took the UFP, Klingons AND the Romulans to push them back, not counting that fleet from Gamma quadrant that was taken care of by the prophets... If USA tomorrow is invaded by, say, Space-illuminati-TRIBBLE-lizards from their secret moonbase that took USA, China and Russia together to beat back, is USA i any shape or form weak? UFP deal with it's imperialistic competitors for centuries. As I have said, by the end, UFP came out as the winner. The great warrior nation Klingon empire shown their weakness in infrastructure, needing a decade more to recuperate from Dominion war, Romulan Star Empire were left leaderless by their own backstabbing tradition.
I seriously don't see where "Their soldiers are tossed aside, rejected and ignored" is coming from, really.
Speaking of defence round Earth, how many time were Earth succesfully attacked and not by some completely overpowered foe that pwned ships left and right like that damned Whale probe? Cloaked and to Starfleet rather unfamiliar Breen ships had a quick attack before chased off, Borg (not counting overpowered since Starfleet did do some damage in STFC, and VOYs nerfing).
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
I think the Federation and Starfleet aren't weak, and they did not stand in their own way.
The Federation and Starfleet were always aimed at maintaining peace and conduct peaceful exploration.
People seem to think that they instead always needed to be set on a full-on military mindset and focus their efforts there. But I think that is wrong. If all you got a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you spend all your resources, all your training, and all your work on having a strong, powerful military where everoyne is always able and wiling to kill whoever seems like a threat, then you will not have peace. YOu will instead try to solve most problems with violence.
So the Federation and Starfleet in "peace-mode" - with its exploration mindset, with people willing to negotiate and allowing enemies to take their first shot - is carries some personal risk (particular for those doing this kind of work), but it minimizes the risk that you take the first shot and cause a war and end up killing a lot of people that didn't need killing if you had been behaving differently.
There's also the other side, that, if all you've got is a hammer, everybody else starts to FEEL like a nail. "Force projection" is a buzzword of RL security policy - i.e. "we need huge and conspicuous armaments not so much because they'd be useful in a war, but to make it clear to everyone that we mean business". Which is a point, but the other side of that is that if people see you armed to the teeth and clearly "meaning business", they might take that as proof that you're a serious threat and they need to strike before you do.
In my opinion, I think that the Federation is doing just fine as it is.
See, let's say you were presented with two people, and of these two people you have to give one of them a medal, this medal would make them a hero of the people, and the people would try to follow in the footsteps of this hero.
Person 1 is a very strong, tough, almost brutish person with a very powerful posture, the white knight of the heroes who comes charging into battle, slaughtering multitudes of enemies, breaking their bones and crushing them, overpowering them and defeating them. They are a killer, they can sometimes even be a monster, but in the end they're a warrior, someone out to defend their land, and remove anyone who would dare to do otherwise, someone who believes that the ends are what justify the means.
They kill to achieve their goal.
Person 2 is a more lanky individual, not very tall or strong, lacking in muscle and strength, someone who would be crushed like a tribble under a Klingon's boot if they were in a direct fight. However, they're a very clever and very brilliant person. They are a scholar, a philosopher, and a good person, someone who would be unwilling to take the path that would end lives unless it was the last possible option, someone who lives by the solemn vow to do no harm, they are someone who uses cleverness, guile, and quick wit and words for weapons, not guns and swords. But they aren't someone who's a coward, they are someone who will never give up on standing for their ideals. They are someone who gives second chances.
They try to save others, no matter how impossible it may seem.
So here's the dilemma, who do you choose? Who do you want your society to model their beliefs, their ideals, and their goals off of?
The man who solves his problems by defeating the enemy through bloodshed and destruction?
Or the man who would hesitate to raise their weapon on someone, in fear that they themselves are the wrong doers, they question what is morally right.
From what you've said, the Federation chooses to make the second person the hero, the weak person with brains over brawn. But I don't think that it makes them weak to do that, no, instead it makes them better people.
It's why I've always admired the Humanity in Star Trek, especially a person like Picard.
These are people who will exhaust all other options before they fight, because if they take the most direct measures, it makes them no better than the enemy.
If someone who knew the future pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i would pick person 3, the one who is a blend of persons 1 & 2, because there's always a third option if you look hard enough
True True
Edit: Yeah, I take my moral values out of Star Trek and Doctor Who... Nothing wrong with that right! I mean... you know... it's not like I uh... not like I don't have other things to do... heh heh... eh...
If someone who knew the future pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?
i would pick person 3, the one who is a blend of persons 1 & 2, because there's always a third option if you look hard enough
^This
Someone who loves peace but know when to use force when necessary, someone who uses logic instead of honor, a good man who's willing to get his hands dirty for a greater good, someone capable of understanding that in some situations brute force is the best option and in other situations diplomacy is necessary.
Klingons are persona 1, federation is persona 2, persona 3 would be Enterprise NX era humans.
Personally I prefer persona 3, they talk, they are reasonable, but they are not afraid to shoot first, ask questions later, if diplomacy fails.
i would pick person 3, the one who is a blend of persons 1 & 2, because there's always a third option if you look hard enough
^This
Someone who loves peace but know when to use force when necessary, someone who uses logic instead of honor, a good man who's willing to get his hands dirty for a greater good, someone capable of understanding that in some situations brute force is the best option and in other situations diplomacy is necessary.
Klingons are persona 1, federation is persona 2, persona 3 would be Enterprise NX era humans.
Personally I prefer persona 3, they talk, they are reasonable, but they are not afraid to shoot first, ask questions later, if diplomacy fails.
I agree with you that "persona 3" would be the best option, however sticking to the context of the original question, if you had to have to pick between #1 or #2, who would you choose?
If someone who knew the future pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
My point is that the Federation has been caught flat-footed too many times to not have a plan B in place that can be enforced quickly. It seems the Dominion War taught them "you know? Sometimes walking softy is the best option but it's sure nice to walk softly and carry a big stick"
the federation post-wolf 359 would also fall under persona 3
I would say more post-Dominion War or they wouldn't have kowtowed to the Cardassians by selling out their colonists to create the DMZ. If you don't get the RIGHT peace treaty, you are better, sad to say, to continue fighting until you secure terms that do not involve betraying your own people.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
the federation post-wolf 359 would also fall under persona 3
and i would pick 2, because brain properly applied will always beat brawn - just ask macgyver
Wouldn't be the first time a more advanced civilization falls to some other civilization that relies on brute force and numbers, Rome fell to the barbarians, China fell to the Mongols, Muslims were pushed back from Europe by Christians during the middle ages, Turks conquered the Byzantine empire and so on.
i would pick person 3, the one who is a blend of persons 1 & 2, because there's always a third option if you look hard enough
That seems like a cheap way out, to define a 3rd person here.
I also think the 2nd person already does what you say - because while it will try to look for alternatives to a fight - it doesn't give up to stand for it sgoals, so if left with no choice after all, it will fight.
And that's pretty much the Federation mentality as we see it. The Galaxy Class starship was designed for peaceful exploration, and yet it was armed with 12 phaser banks and 2 photon torpedo launchers and protected by powerful shields. Even the good old Constitution could claim the ability to devastate a planet. Starfleet ships have teeth. Starfleet prefers not needing to use them, but if they have to, they don't lack the ability to fight.
The Dominion might have been able to outmatch the Federation alone, but - that wasn't due to a lack of willingness to fight. It was because the Dominion is most likely a lot bigger and potentially has more advanced technology than the Federation. That isn't a sign of a inherent weakness - it's just a question of numbers.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Speaking of power, just read the STO blog's Utopia Plantia report 2. The reason Starfleet made the Yamato, instead of, say, bunch of upsized Defiant to have both firepower and a certain degree of long range independent operation capability is because the Klingons and the Romulans are pretty much doing the same thing and build big ships with big guns to show off. N
i would pick person 3, the one who is a blend of persons 1 & 2, because there's always a third option if you look hard enough
That seems like a cheap way out, to define a 3rd person here.
I also think the 2nd person already does what you say - because while it will try to look for alternatives to a fight - it doesn't give up to stand for it sgoals, so if left with no choice after all, it will fight.
And that's pretty much the Federation mentality as we see it. The Galaxy Class starship was designed for peaceful exploration, and yet it was armed with 12 phaser banks and 2 photon torpedo launchers and protected by powerful shields. Even the good old Constitution could claim the ability to devastate a planet. Starfleet ships have teeth. Starfleet prefers not needing to use them, but if they have to, they don't lack the ability to fight.
The Dominion might have been able to outmatch the Federation alone, but - that wasn't due to a lack of willingness to fight. It was because the Dominion is most likely a lot bigger and potentially has more advanced technology than the Federation. That isn't a sign of a inherent weakness - it's just a question of numbers.
Most likely, more like definitely. It took UFP, Klingon AND Romulans to push them back. Don't forget Dominion also have Breen support. Even without Breen( and the wormhole prophet's meddling with the reinforcement fleet from the wormhole) the Dominion is still very dangerous
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Comments
I disagree. The Federation, as a power, is weak. However, it is also backed by incredible technological power and extremely lucky.
It's my headcanon that the MACO's and other such forces only get called up when actual full-scale warfare is breaking out, and that any other time their numbers get rolled back into UFP member nations' forces* and go back to being treated like read-headed stepchildren by the Feddiebear Council and Starfleet.
*We know the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan Defense Forces still exist, and the some United Earth organizations are still around. It would make sense that the glorified college grads with delusions of military competence would demand that the "barbaric" professional military men and women get out of the limelight ASAP, lest humanity remember how we really get things done.
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
Except, as DS9 shows, Starfleet is perfectly capable of wining a war without a military.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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the troops on ar 359 or whatever number it was... weren't they called soldiers?
I can't remember if they were in the story or people just assumed htey were. Going by their division stripes I just thought they were Starfleet personal in heaver tops, same as the Assault Squad from ST5.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Only after being beaten back with heavy losses for a long time while they struggled to fully mobilize physically and psychologically.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
True, but it's still ridiculously impressive for a colonisation and exploration flotilla.
Hahahaha.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I think that ultimately Starfleet had to face the fact that it was a military and had to maintain the role of a military first. Although STO takes it too far sometimes, this is actually part of why I like the game. Unlike a lot of purists, I feel like the permanent militarization of Starfleet reflected in both the equipment and tactics used in the game reflects a logical outcome of the Dominion War. The people in the highest ranks of the fleet (excepting your character) are often Dominion War vets, or at least remember that time. My theory is, these are not people interested in ceding another campaign to an aggressive power. So while they may still consider exploration a worthy thing to do, they aren't going to put up with confusion over what Starfleet's mission is...and has to be...in order to keep the Federation alive.
Again, I do acknowledge that the game goes to excesses at times, but the core idea of a Starfleet that has experienced a permanent cultural shift and come to terms with its defensive and yes, warfighting mission, is IMO valid.
I know people also like to hate on the JJverse, but the outcomes we see there are similar in nature to STO and also very logical. What the Narada did to the Federation there was probably as severe as Wolf 359, the Battle of Sector 001, and the Dominion War COMBINED. It shouldn't be any wonder that we see a huge jump ahead in offensive weapon technology both in space and on the ground, and an overall more militaristic approach by its officers. I actually suspect the technology in the JJverse 2250s is closer to what we see in the Undiscovered Country era in the Prime Universe, if not pushing towards early 24th century in certain areas. Yes, sometimes things get ridiculous in the JJverse. I don't pretend those movies are perfect by any means. But again, I see a logical outcome in terms of overall culture and mindset (not necessarily the actions of specific people) to the events that occurred and I do think that JJfleet is right on the general principle to make sure they cannot get steamrolled again.
There is an extent to which this is true given their slow mobilization and poor preparedness (both psychological and infrastructurally) before the war began. That said, certain units really did step up to the challenge despite not having been provided what they should've had to fight the war. So if it were me, I would say the Federation survived in spite of the Federation and Starfleet's upper leadership, which was IMO detached from reality until the War smacked them in the face with it.
Having ideals is nice...but if you are unable or unwilling to back them up when forced to do so, those ideals end up not being able to help anybody at all.
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
To get peace, you have to be prepared to wage war.
It's not about giving up ideals. It's about planning ahead. It's about guarding yourself. Like I said they have enemies that can cloak and be over San Fran before they'd even know it. Protecting the capitol and core planets is just smart. How many times will an enemy fly to Earth before someone decides to protect it more?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The Federation and Starfleet were always aimed at maintaining peace and conduct peaceful exploration.
People seem to think that they instead always needed to be set on a full-on military mindset and focus their efforts there. But I think that is wrong. If all you got a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you spend all your resources, all your training, and all your work on having a strong, powerful military where everoyne is always able and wiling to kill whoever seems like a threat, then you will not have peace. YOu will instead try to solve most problems with violence.
So the Federation and Starfleet in "peace-mode" - with its exploration mindset, with people willing to negotiate and allowing enemies to take their first shot - is carries some personal risk (particular for those doing this kind of work), but it minimizes the risk that you take the first shot and cause a war and end up killing a lot of people that didn't need killing if you had been behaving differently.
Starfleet is however quite capable of changing its mindset to get onto the war path. But they do it controlled, and only when necessary. When the Borg threat arrived, Starfleet realized they needed to invest more into military research and build more ships. First Contact proved that Starfleet's reserach worked out, and the Dominion more proved that they were also able to build and mobilize more ships.
The events of AR [whatevernumber] also showed that even a small Starfleet force had the technology, training and mental fortitude to last trough a several month long siege against superior numbers of warriors bred for war.
There are of course risks with this strategy, and I think Starfleet and the Federation are aware of them. But ever strategy comes with risks - you have to decide which risks you are willing to take. And if you're with the "good guys", the risk that you get hurt or killed yourself is preferable to you hurting or killing someone innocent.
2. It's fine to want to strive for peace first... but when you get attacked, weakness is just sitting there going "um... wha?"|
Speaking of Dominion war, it took the UFP, Klingons AND the Romulans to push them back, not counting that fleet from Gamma quadrant that was taken care of by the prophets... If USA tomorrow is invaded by, say, Space-illuminati-TRIBBLE-lizards from their secret moonbase that took USA, China and Russia together to beat back, is USA i any shape or form weak? UFP deal with it's imperialistic competitors for centuries. As I have said, by the end, UFP came out as the winner. The great warrior nation Klingon empire shown their weakness in infrastructure, needing a decade more to recuperate from Dominion war, Romulan Star Empire were left leaderless by their own backstabbing tradition.
I seriously don't see where "Their soldiers are tossed aside, rejected and ignored" is coming from, really.
Speaking of defence round Earth, how many time were Earth succesfully attacked and not by some completely overpowered foe that pwned ships left and right like that damned Whale probe? Cloaked and to Starfleet rather unfamiliar Breen ships had a quick attack before chased off, Borg (not counting overpowered since Starfleet did do some damage in STFC, and VOYs nerfing).
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
There's also the other side, that, if all you've got is a hammer, everybody else starts to FEEL like a nail. "Force projection" is a buzzword of RL security policy - i.e. "we need huge and conspicuous armaments not so much because they'd be useful in a war, but to make it clear to everyone that we mean business". Which is a point, but the other side of that is that if people see you armed to the teeth and clearly "meaning business", they might take that as proof that you're a serious threat and they need to strike before you do.
See, let's say you were presented with two people, and of these two people you have to give one of them a medal, this medal would make them a hero of the people, and the people would try to follow in the footsteps of this hero.
Person 1 is a very strong, tough, almost brutish person with a very powerful posture, the white knight of the heroes who comes charging into battle, slaughtering multitudes of enemies, breaking their bones and crushing them, overpowering them and defeating them. They are a killer, they can sometimes even be a monster, but in the end they're a warrior, someone out to defend their land, and remove anyone who would dare to do otherwise, someone who believes that the ends are what justify the means.
They kill to achieve their goal.
Person 2 is a more lanky individual, not very tall or strong, lacking in muscle and strength, someone who would be crushed like a tribble under a Klingon's boot if they were in a direct fight. However, they're a very clever and very brilliant person. They are a scholar, a philosopher, and a good person, someone who would be unwilling to take the path that would end lives unless it was the last possible option, someone who lives by the solemn vow to do no harm, they are someone who uses cleverness, guile, and quick wit and words for weapons, not guns and swords. But they aren't someone who's a coward, they are someone who will never give up on standing for their ideals. They are someone who gives second chances.
They try to save others, no matter how impossible it may seem.
So here's the dilemma, who do you choose? Who do you want your society to model their beliefs, their ideals, and their goals off of?
The man who solves his problems by defeating the enemy through bloodshed and destruction?
Or the man who would hesitate to raise their weapon on someone, in fear that they themselves are the wrong doers, they question what is morally right.
From what you've said, the Federation chooses to make the second person the hero, the weak person with brains over brawn. But I don't think that it makes them weak to do that, no, instead it makes them better people.
It's why I've always admired the Humanity in Star Trek, especially a person like Picard.
These are people who will exhaust all other options before they fight, because if they take the most direct measures, it makes them no better than the enemy.
~The Doctor
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
True True
Edit: Yeah, I take my moral values out of Star Trek and Doctor Who... Nothing wrong with that right! I mean... you know... it's not like I uh... not like I don't have other things to do... heh heh... eh...
~The Doctor
^This
Someone who loves peace but know when to use force when necessary, someone who uses logic instead of honor, a good man who's willing to get his hands dirty for a greater good, someone capable of understanding that in some situations brute force is the best option and in other situations diplomacy is necessary.
Klingons are persona 1, federation is persona 2, persona 3 would be Enterprise NX era humans.
Personally I prefer persona 3, they talk, they are reasonable, but they are not afraid to shoot first, ask questions later, if diplomacy fails.
I agree with you that "persona 3" would be the best option, however sticking to the context of the original question, if you had to have to pick between #1 or #2, who would you choose?
~The Doctor
and i would pick 2, because brain properly applied will always beat brawn - just ask macgyver
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My point is that the Federation has been caught flat-footed too many times to not have a plan B in place that can be enforced quickly. It seems the Dominion War taught them "you know? Sometimes walking softy is the best option but it's sure nice to walk softly and carry a big stick"
I would say more post-Dominion War or they wouldn't have kowtowed to the Cardassians by selling out their colonists to create the DMZ. If you don't get the RIGHT peace treaty, you are better, sad to say, to continue fighting until you secure terms that do not involve betraying your own people.
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Wouldn't be the first time a more advanced civilization falls to some other civilization that relies on brute force and numbers, Rome fell to the barbarians, China fell to the Mongols, Muslims were pushed back from Europe by Christians during the middle ages, Turks conquered the Byzantine empire and so on.
I also think the 2nd person already does what you say - because while it will try to look for alternatives to a fight - it doesn't give up to stand for it sgoals, so if left with no choice after all, it will fight.
And that's pretty much the Federation mentality as we see it. The Galaxy Class starship was designed for peaceful exploration, and yet it was armed with 12 phaser banks and 2 photon torpedo launchers and protected by powerful shields. Even the good old Constitution could claim the ability to devastate a planet. Starfleet ships have teeth. Starfleet prefers not needing to use them, but if they have to, they don't lack the ability to fight.
The Dominion might have been able to outmatch the Federation alone, but - that wasn't due to a lack of willingness to fight. It was because the Dominion is most likely a lot bigger and potentially has more advanced technology than the Federation. That isn't a sign of a inherent weakness - it's just a question of numbers.
Most likely, more like definitely. It took UFP, Klingon AND Romulans to push them back. Don't forget Dominion also have Breen support. Even without Breen( and the wormhole prophet's meddling with the reinforcement fleet from the wormhole) the Dominion is still very dangerous
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful