The Federation is weak!

deaftravis05

Looking at the history of the Federation, I have come to the conclusion that their warriors, their soldiers are not valued. Starfleet values those who favour logic, favour exploration and diplomacy. Their soldiers are tossed aside, rejected and ignored and billions have paid for this foolhardy attitude with their lives.

Curzon Dax, one of the greatest diplomats the Federation had, was a Trill. This race are scientists. They favour the pursuit of Knowledge. Curzon used his knowledge of the Klingons to develop an understanding of the warrior's mind. He insulted Klingons, picked fights and exacted rage from them. They respected him. He was not a man of talk, but a man who said what was on his mind and in no polite words either.

Sisko was a soldier, a soldier who told off the Chancellor of the Empire himself! He survived a Klingon bachelor party and started a war. The Klingons respected him. This was a man who led from the front, fought hand to hand with the Klingons and didn't care what Command thought. He also knocked out a god (Q). Now there should be your type of an officer. A soldier! He picked a fight with the Dominion in such a manner that war was the only outcome. He barred his teeth and said "Come get some" and when the Dominion came, the man fought a glorious battle, giving up his base only once the Fleet wiped out the enemy's shipyards. He was willing to fight to the death and slew many Cardassians and Jem'Hadr troops.

Picard was a man who was difficult to reason with. He never gave in to anger, he fought the Borg and was a brilliant commander. He was a fine balance between the diplomat and the soldier. He was a man who dared war with Romulus over honour! The Klingons respected him. He understood the warrior's mind. He walked into traps prepared to start an interstellar war on the way out.

and Janeway! They kicked her upstairs because they were afraid of what she'd do in the Alpha Quadrant! Now there was a soldier. Sure, early on she was a lousy one. But battle hardened her and she became a thorn in the side of the Borg and brought back the majority of her crew. She didn't care about stepping on toes. She did the right thing but when push came to shove, she got out the baseball bat. When she got boarded, she didn't go "oh no! lock down the ship's computers!"

no. She armed everyone and fought to the bitter end and when it arrived, she was willing to take the TRIBBLE with her, and actually did this once in an aborted timeline.

Then there's Kirk. A man who negotiated with his right fist, and his left, or his hips.

Starfleet needs commanders like those people. People who are willing to not hold back, willing to smash a few heads together. Officers who know that Peace cannot be achieved through nice words, but nice words backed with superior firepower.

The galaxy is a harsh place. The Klingons understand this. While they could do better with their diplomatic skills, they don't hold back. If the Federation ever hope to have an alliance that lasts more than a generation, they need to establish this understanding. They need to handle the Klingons with a firm grip on their bat'leths, the Romulans with a back up plan and a second backup plan and the Cardassians with a good, firm pressure from the back of their heels on those Cardassian necks.

Talk is nice. Talk is good. But be prepared to be stabbed in the back. Be prepared to have your worlds burn. Don't keep all your defences on the outlying borders. Be prepared to have your lines breached and your capitals threatened. I do not understand why the Federation do not learn this lesson. It is entirely possible to create the illusion of an unprotected world, but when it's attacked, it becomes a fortress of unyielding stone. Earth can be a paradise but it must be one with protection, otherwise it will eventually become paradise lost.

This is the problem with Star Trek and the Federation. Fools don't live long and eventually the Federation would had learned after licking enough wounds to ensure those wounds don't reopen. It is large, with the ability to be well populated and well defended.

Perhaps it is time that the Federation and the Klingons merge, establishing a new branch of the military in which Starfleet establishes a permanent military branch called the Federation Defence Corps.

Yes, Starfleet should be comprised of the following;

Exploration Corps
Defence Corps
Engineering Corps
Diplomatic Corps
Science Corps


The Defence Corps would be warships, able to pull forces from the other corps for defence, dealing with border skirmish and ensure security. Membership in the Corps means you are honourable, peace is the way to true victory but don't be afraid of a bloody fist, and war is something to be avoided if possible unless at the cost of Federation Security. They would be tasked with security and defence of the core worlds in peacetime. In wartime, they will be tasked with ensuring Federation Victory. The survival of the Federation and its security would be their highest goal.
Ships would have a focus on speed, damage, and durability. They would be able to deploy troops rapidly.

The Exploration Corps would comprise of officers that wants to explore new worlds. The Exploration Corps would have the Federation's larger ships, for deep space. Galaxy classes and their successors would be assigned to this Corps. However in times of war, they will fall under the Defence Corps. Officers would be trained in diplomacy first but because they are the reserve forces for the Defence Corps, they will be trained in military tactics, hand to hand combat and the like. The Prime Directive is their ultimate law, sworn to obey it first.
Ships would be deep space, capable of surviving for 5-10 years or longer on their own.

Engineering Corps: Tasked with establishing Federation Defences, creating fortifications as well as working with civilian projects. Their job is to ensure that the Federation Defence is always up to par. They design ships, weapons and defences for the other corps. Ships are large, bulky and tough with industrial replicators.

The Diplomatic corps: Tasked with keeping the peace. Officers would be stationed on Explorers as well as warships. Their job is to make the Federation look friendly, happy and peaceful. When sent to a hostile species to negotiate, they are escorted by warships from the Defence Corps. If it's a new species, they'd be assigned from the Exploration Corps.

Science Corps, more of a civilian branch of the Federation. They provide medical ships, science ships and exploration of areas that the Exploration Corps deem more suited for the Science branch.


Breaking the Federation into these 5 will ensure that the majority of officers are aware of external threats. Starfleet's Joint Chiefs would have someone from each of these corps. This means you got explorers who know there are races out there that mean to do harm to us. You got soldiers who will value the defence of the Federation, you got engineers who don't want their pride and joy wrecked by war parties. The Diplomatic corps would act as a voice of reason, dealing with a wide variety of races and knowing the potential of what's out there.


Of course, there's always the budget problem from the Federation Council, but it seems Starfleet has a lot more power to establish defences, fortifications and deployments as they see fit. The Federation Council are made up of many worlds, but considering that Vulcan, Alpha Centuri, Andor and Tellar were threatened during the Dominion War, Earth was attacked and Betazerd, I suspect that the Council would be open to preparing better lines of defence and strengthening the military branch of Starfleet.


I really cannot believe the Federation is so weak. Andor and Earth should be enough to encourage stronger military development!

kyrrok

That's why I portray my human tac as a troublemaker who was recruited by Captain Paris and a later Admiral Pike in the "Diamond in the Rough" program. Serving in Starfleet instead of doing time in a prison. I think the Klingon war and the problems afterward got them to step up their defenses. But if they were truly that weak, I think the Klingons would have picked them down in short order.

I would have more of a problem with the all too perfect image that the Feds have. If there is a human doing something as bad as B'vat or Taris would do, it must be a bug in the throat, and Undine shapeshifter, or a mirror Terran. Greed might have been eliminated but I'm sure there's plenty of sins you can choose from.

deaftravis05

My character is a Bajoran who grew up during the Dominion war. He's old now, but during the war, he served in the Bajoran milta. As a result, when he was offered command after completing starfleet training, his rapid rise in the ranks wasn't a surprise.

k20vtec

Federation is not weak, see the show. It stood among several conquering imperial power for centuries. Klingons can't recuperate from big disaster as fast as UFP(DS9, the klingons need atleast decade more to recupreate from Dominion war, accroding to Sloane). Romulan, the only real contestant after Dominion war is hampered by it's back-stabbing tradition(Shinzon and the Reman gang). Ferengi, it's Grand Nagus's son is assimilated embraced federation, as do his father with the reforms. Cardassians were never a big power. Federation still have the changling virus, a few tweak and it is good to go again. Not to mention the famous "turn rocks into replicator" magic, breen energy dampener that is worth so much Dominion even give up some of it's Alpha quadrant territory was cracked in a month, as is Polaron weapons. Federation is the sole unknown power among the others that have a weapon who can atleast annilate all life on a planet(genesis) without extended orbital bombing, quite possibly blow up a planet(reverse of Genesis planet effect).

khan5000

My RP character is a time displaced crew from the TOS era that looks at the current Star Fleet and wonders what happened? He's as much a maverick as Kirk is and believes rules can be bent to serve the common good.

k20vtec

Wiat, isnt Kirk a bit of a troublemaker too... At least I dont think sex advices is in the Starfleet academy traning? Is it? Does anyone wants to sell their notes?

starswordc

Kanril Eleya was very intentionally written as the anti-Picard. She's a career soldier with prior enlisted service in the Bajoran Militia. In one story I drew a direct contrast where Eleya met with a Vaadwaur commander and explicitly said "I have my shields up because I'm not an idiot."

Gulberat caught what I was referring to: Picard lowering his shields as a "show of good faith", to which the Cardassian on the other end of the comm responded by taking a shot at him. And because he's Picard, he calls the Cardassian "treacherous" for taking advantage of his stupidity.

gulberat

starswordc wrote: »

Kanril Eleya was very intentionally written as the anti-Picard. She's a career soldier with prior enlisted service in the Bajoran Militia. In one story I drew a direct contrast where Eleya met with a Vaadwaur commander and explicitly said "I have my shields up because I'm not an idiot."

Gulberat caught what I was referring to: Picard lowering his shields as a "show of good faith", to which the Cardassian on the other end of the comm responded by taking a shot at him. And because he's Picard, he calls the Cardassian "treacherous" for taking advantage of his stupidity.

Yep, I remember that. Similarly, I've had the 77th Fleet, in my stories, be more careful about having shields up or weapons on hot standby if required. In my own stories, the Cardassians expect a shields-up approach because it shows you're a) not a naive idiot and b) sufficiently respect what your "adversary" is capable of. To not do so could be read as a display of arrogant stupidity or contempt.

bioixi

The Federation's ideals held it back several times, and led to very stupid situations that could have been solved easily using some good old fashioned brute force.

They always say they must respect everyone's ideals, but they never stand up and make people respect theirs, in fact, when starfleet ideals clash with someone else's ideals they usually back off, it's ridiculous, even if the opponent has ridiculously low tech and they are committing atrocities.

This often leads to stupid situations where the enemy always has the upper hand because the federation will try to talk first, shoot later.

-Sir, an enemy ship is entering federation space.
-Hail them.
-No response, they are shooting at us.
-Hail them.
-No response, we've lost shields and life support is failing.
-Hail them.
-No response, the warp core is breaching.

That's stupid, is someone is attacking you with no provocation, your first response should be "blow the TRIBBLE out of their ship", then hail the survivors.

antonine3258

Of course, the Minbari did a 'gunports open' show of respect in another universe and it sparked a genocidal war, so it sort of depends who's writing.

deaftravis05

Fed ships should always be at yellow alert when doing first first contact... that's why they prefer to do research before making first contact, but sometimes that's not always possible. Shields up, weapons on standby.

rattler2

k20vtec wrote: »

Federation is the sole unknown power among the others that have a weapon who can atleast annilate all life on a planet(genesis) without extended orbital bombing, quite possibly blow up a planet(reverse of Genesis planet effect).

The problem is, Genesis wasn't designed as a weapon. It was meant to terraform dead planets. Used on a living planet, the Genesis device would destroy what's already there in favor of its new matrix. While it was a partial success, the interest the Klingons had in the Genesis "Weapon" may have made the Federation realize just how dangerous Genesis tech is and locked it down so that no one would use it against another planet as a WMD.

In the Genesis Wave books, we saw just how nasty the Genesis Effect is on populated planets.

Starfleet made the right call in not persuing that research after the fiasco with Khan and the Klingons. Also... while not used on a proper target as it was meant to be, the Genesis Planet was unstable. In essence... the Genesis Project was a failure.

deaftravis05

but it'd be an effective weapon against the Borg

gulberat

deaftravis05 wrote: »

but it'd be an effective weapon against the Borg

Unless they assimilate it, in which case that "assimilation virus" seen in game would be small potatoes...

deaftravis05

can't assimilate something that's ripping you apart

legendarylycan

starswordc wrote: »

Gulberat caught what I was referring to: Picard lowering his shields as a "show of good faith", to which the Cardassian on the other end of the comm responded by taking a shot at him. And because he's Picard, he calls the Cardassian "treacherous" for taking advantage of his stupidity.

and the ironic thing is, that exact same situation happens early on in bridge commander where the player is blamed for the destruction of a pair of d'deridexes by commander torenn of the IRW Soryak and when the player's first officer asks what they can do to prove they weren't responsible, she asks them to lower shields as a sign of good faith (which you're forced to do or the mission doesn't progress), but instead of taking advantage, she merely cloaks and warps out after saying a few words

so, the treacherous, backstabbing romulans don't take advantage of a 'shields down' situation while the cardassians do...that's all kinds of TRIBBLE up​​

gulberat

The Cardassians are all about pragmatism and they do not seem to care much for codes of honor. Remember Garak's comment that shooting someone in the back is "the safest way" and therefore a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

"Even" my good Cardassians, when I write them, draw the line as to what actually constitutes "dirty fighting" in a different place than what a Klingon would, or some Romulans.

deaftravis05

Romulans do have a code of honour

kyrrok

The Tal Shiar don't. They'd sell other Romulans to the Elachi food racks, experimental slabs, and Borg alcoves. But it's true that not all Romulans are evil incarnate. The one description fits all just don't fit at all whether the description is good or bad.

deaftravis05

true, when dealing with the Tal Shiar, expect a BSing or two

artan42

kyrrok wrote: »

The Tal Shiar don't. They'd sell other Romulans to the Elachi food racks, experimental slabs, and Borg alcoves. But it's true that not all Romulans are evil incarnate. The one description fits all just don't fit at all whether the description is good or bad.

Ingame they don't. But ingame they are a military power, in the show they were the Imperial police crossed with intel service.

Dedication to your Empire is a type of honour as is a willingness to protect it. People like Koval (Kovol?) were acting in the Empires best interest and was Tal Shiar.​​

starswordc

@artan42: Right, wasn't Koval the one who was a mole for Section 31 the whole time?

The Romulan culture in general has an honor code (and one where "honor" is more than just an excuse to kill people like it is for the Klingons). The Tal Shiar in general, and particularly their leaders, have none.

gulberat

And funny enough, even "honorless" Cardassians are sometimes capable of behaving better than someone who says they are following an honor code, because sometimes, NOT being bound by the code means the ability to evaluate the individual situation and react in the way appropriate to that moment.

For example, it could be the moral, appropriate thing to break one's word, if you find out your word was given on one understanding, but the other party lied to you or other new, damaging information came to light that convinced you that keeping your word would lead to an unconscionable situation. If I find, for instance, that by keeping my promise to someone I am aiding and abetting in a crime, I am going to break the promise and not participate in the crime.

gradii

False. if the federation was weak it would have fallen long ago.

bioixi

gulberat wrote: »

And funny enough, even "honorless" Cardassians are sometimes capable of behaving better than someone who says they are following an honor code, because sometimes, NOT being bound by the code means the ability to evaluate the individual situation and react in the way appropriate to that moment.

For example, it could be the moral, appropriate thing to break one's word, if you find out your word was given on one understanding, but the other party lied to you or other new, damaging information came to light that convinced you that keeping your word would lead to an unconscionable situation. If I find, for instance, that by keeping my promise to someone I am aiding and abetting in a crime, I am going to break the promise and not participate in the crime.

Cardassians behave like present day humans, and they are also quite pragmatic.

-Why the hell challenge someone to a duel? shoot him in the back and be done with him.

-He lowered his shields as a good will gesture? wow that guy is really stupid.

-That planet is undefended, attack now!

That's what rational people would do, honor is for idiots, it just doesn't make sense, honor just puts you in a disadvantage your enemies can exploit.

I mean, can you picture an US army officer challenging Bin Laden to a duel? or deactivating the anti-missile defense systems as a sign of good faith? or waiting for the enemy to come back before attacking their stronghold?

Personally, I can't blame cardassians for taking advantage of people's stupidity, specially if said stupidity is intentional.

gulberat

bioixi wrote: »

Cardassians behave like present day humans, and they are also quite pragmatic.

Both in the good ways and in the really bad ways, this is why I consider them (and the Bajorans) the most relatable of the Trek species and the most fleshed-out, even compared to Star Trek's version of humanity.

deaftravis05

remember, ds9 was well thought out

artan42

deaftravis05 wrote: »

remember, ds9 was well thought out

Well from series 3 or so.​​

deaftravis05

Yeah, it seems early on they had these writers do throw-away stories... which arent a good idea, to be honest...

gulberat

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Yeah, it seems early on they had these writers do throw-away stories... which arent a good idea, to be honest...

That said, a surprising amount of details from those so-called throwaway stories, compared to what any other Star Trek series did, showed up and sometimes even managed to be important and relevant, in later seasons. I don't feel like I can say that about most of the other series.

lilchibiclari

bioixi wrote: »

Cardassians behave like present day humans, and they are also quite pragmatic.

-Why the hell challenge someone to a duel? shoot him in the back and be done with him.

-He lowered his shields as a good will gesture? wow that guy is really stupid.

-That planet is undefended, attack now!

That's what rational people would do, honor is for idiots, it just doesn't make sense, honor just puts you in a disadvantage your enemies can exploit.

That's all very useful during a conflict, but if you ever want the conflict to end by any means other than total annihilation of one side, then you have to figure out how to make them stop hating you so that they won't start building up for a new war the instant that you lift the occupation and withdraw your troops from their territory.