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One picture to describe how dire the Kemo-stacking situation is.

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  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    Edit: Wait the Olaen has Lt. Cmdr Command 8D. How did I over look this.
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    The lag caused by this is what makes me mad. Everytime I see Torp spread and the kemo graphic on groups of enemies like the spheres in ISA, everything freezes ! Its the most annoying thing in the game. Meanwhile my dps goes down, because it takes 10 secs or so for my framerate to come back up, and for my tray to stop lagging.
    Its infuriating. I'm going to start asking for games where no one will be using kemo/ts.
    They can go exploit together, and eat each others dps.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    What's amusing is how proud some of the idiots in the dps channels are of their kemo torp spreads. Look at me I R dps good! It will be fun when it finally gets fixed - QQ and T.T for everyone.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • tempusmagustempusmagus Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    The lag caused by this is what makes me mad. Everytime I see Torp spread and the kemo graphic on groups of enemies like the spheres in ISA, everything freezes ! Its the most annoying thing in the game. Meanwhile my dps goes down, because it takes 10 secs or so for my framerate to come back up, and for my tray to stop lagging.
    Its infuriating. I'm going to start asking for games where no one will be using kemo/ts.
    They can go exploit together, and eat each others dps.

    There are people asking for beam only runs, which can probably include cannons. I've considered doing no kemo runs.
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I quite do not understand the logic, that "torpedoes are now fine" because we have Neut and Kemo..LOL.

    That's because there is no logic at all to understand. The idea of "One rep torpedo laced with kemo is great, and therefore the torpedo problem in general is solved" just don't sit too well with me either. They need to fix torpedoes (and cannons too) and they need to do it right.
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    TempusMagnus,
    I will look for those beam/cannon only games. Its just sad it has to come to this.
    Not a fan of breaking up the player base, based on what equipment they use.
    But you have to draw the line somewhere.
    And lagging me out for 10-15 secs at a time for a cheese exploit, is that line for me.
    Im taking my ball, and going to play with people who dont cause extreme lag spikes.
    And those using this have no respect for how others are going to experience the game, all they care about is themselves and their lame "do anything" attitude and approach to achieving the highest dps they can.

    Wipe the dps boards. Delete every run that uses kemo/ts.
    They don't deserve to be there.
    Or make a seperate board for these players who use kemo/ts. I just dont want to be associated on the same board as these selfish players.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I quite do not understand the logic, that "torpedoes are now fine" because we have Neut and Kemo..LOL.

    Lol! Hardly. There's more to the aresenal for Torps in DR other than Neutronic, but it's woefully behind what energy weapons receive in both sheer number and percentage that properly works. This doesn't factor in the other bugs plaguing torps right now. So o, torps aren't fine, but one can work around most of the bugs..... it just takes much more effort to do so.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    TempusMagnus,
    I will look for those beam/cannon only games. Its just sad it has to come to this.
    Not a fan of breaking up the player base, based on what equipment they use.
    But you have to draw the line somewhere.
    And lagging me out for 10-15 secs at a time for a cheese exploit, is that line for me.
    Im taking my ball, and going to play with people who dont cause extreme lag spikes.
    And those using this have no respect for how others are going to experience the game, all they care about is themselves and their lame "do anything" attitude and approach to achieving the highest dps they can.

    Wipe the dps boards. Delete every run that uses kemo/ts.
    They don't deserve to be there.
    Or make a seperate board for these players who use kemo/ts. I just dont want to be associated on the same board as these selfish players.

    What's wrong w/ a no KLW run? Torps aren't to blame here, you know....

    FYI, the boards will be wiped once a Memo fix is in place.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    bobs1111 wrote: »
    Enh Bio-Mol and the lesser variants have an 8 second delay before they proc their damaging effect. Prior to that, they affect their target with a slow. The photons have a 6 second refresh/"reload" time before firing again (excluding PWO cd DOffs). As for Neutronic, one can easily argue that was the single saving grace for torps in Delta Rising until the introduction of KLW. It works very well for the beam boat meta: load up on flowcaps + leech and fire away. Now, if you want to call Neutronic "well balanced", I get to call everything else in the game "well balanced". See how this game is played?
    bobs1111 wrote: »
    I never called the Neutronic well balanced... quite the opposite its a clearly OP torp which is why its the main torp you see people running these days.

    I was responding to your sarcasm with sarcasm. Where's @sarcasmdetector when you need him?
    bobs1111 wrote: »
    As for Neut being a saving grace... BS. I have had a 60k DPS torp boat since well before DR, and I still haven't slotted a neut torp. (Cause honestly the Photon Boosts put them ahead of the quantums... and the new set is only going to put them further ahead)

    Nice! Can I view the logs of any of those runs that were conducted well before DR?
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • coupaholiccoupaholic Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    What's amusing is how proud some of the idiots in the dps channels are of their kemo torp spreads. Look at me I R dps good! It will be fun when it finally gets fixed - QQ and T.T for everyone.

    My cynical side tells me that once those dreadnaughts are released they'll oh so happen to be some bug with the lance weapons that makes them hilariously overpowered. Those poor people won't have to suffer for long.​​
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    dark,
    Everytime I see a Torp spread and kemo graphic on groups of enemies.
    I get an extreme lag spike.
    The amount of calculations goes through the roof on impact.

    Torp spread with kemo is causing it.

    No kemo and torp spread = no prob.
    Kemo and Torp spread = problem.

    Its not the torps themselves, its the combo of the 2.

    And anyone using that combo will not be welcome in my games.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    dark,
    Everytime I see a Torp spread and kemo graphic on groups of enemies.
    I get an extreme lag spike.
    The amount of calculations goes through the roof on impact.

    Torp spread with kemo is causing it.

    No kemo and torp spread = no prob.
    Kemo and Torp spread = problem.

    Its not the torps themselves, its the combo of the 2.

    And anyone using that combo will not be welcome in my games.

    Something that might help is having the logs written to a different, fast hard drive. I'm not saying that to excuse Kemo-Cheesing, but to help you with some of the issues that the client has to deal with whenever there is a massive amount of damage that happens instantaneously that needs to be written to the log file.

    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    tempus64 wrote: »
    Thank you. What did you do differently? the [ img ] (with no spaces) wasn't working properly for me.
    Well.. notice anything odd about the domain name in the links you posted? Like the lack of a .com? he he he

    LOL! TY! I had it in there initially when I was using the link icon. TY for fixing it. I'll hand code it next time.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    lucho80 wrote: »
    They are actively working on a fix now for S11. The same bug affects the new Terran secondary torpedoes. They keep firing infinitely with TS. It was funny being able to destroy ships in Tribble with just torpedoes.

    What kind of weirdo would use only torpedoes to destroy ships in this game.....
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    Was someone complaining that if Neutronic & Kemo were gone torps wouldn't be as strong as they are now?

    My Torp Build uses Neutronic, but not kemo and I am getting high 40k right now. With a few adjustments I could be hitting 50k.

    As an eng.
    Which has a ton of heals / tank (Kobali 4pc)
    This isn't being cherry picked. It does have a moderately high variance tho.

    Hell. I run 50/50/50/50. It's the most fun I've had since beams started getting popular.

    Edit:
    kAKjv.jpg
    But don't worry Neutronic & KLW make Torps OP.
    They just make them broken due to KLW being broken.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    So I picked up the Neutronic.

    gmdBRlB.jpg

    So the contribution from Kemocite (PUG tested) is quite high. 27k from Kemo alone. 80k DPS.

    That said, on my current ship, I AM sacrificing DPS elsewhere. I don't have a clean parse yet of what I do with Neutronic and without the Kemo-oriented gear but my estimate would be around 65k DPS. Basically, I'm sacrificing about 15k from other sources to get 25k extra DPS from the 3 Kemo.

    I'm starting to wonder if the people who hit 150k from Kemo stacking maybe ordinarily break 125k. The big difference is that their Kemo build is 150k with 100k from one ability (which they're stacking multiples of) and their standard build is 125k. The absolute gain may not be as high as it seems based on the opportunity cost involved.

    It seems to me like the truly nasty potential would come from a Mobius with 9 copies of Kemo, 1 TSIII, 1 Cmdr Tac ability, and 1 FAW. I could see that getting out of hand.

    It's the stacking potential of the bonus procs that makes this really dangerous. Personally, I only have 3 Kemos to slot.

    I'll try testing what my build would be without Kemo to get a feel for the opportunity cost though.

    Gaining 100k from one ability sounds insane but I think you do have to factor in how much DPS somebody is giving up from other sources to get there.

    You could get 300k from slotting one ability 9 times and deal 300k DPS and if you normally deal 295k without that ability then it's not as badly broken as it seems. You can't just judge the ability on its contribution. You have to judge it on the next best option.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps

    It seems to me like the truly nasty potential would come from a Mobius with 9 copies of Kemo, 1 TSIII, 1 Cmdr Tac ability, and 1 FAW. I could see that getting out of hand.

    Now you are starting to understand the power of the Kemo-Cheesers.

    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    I am so going to relish the day Kemo finally gets fixed, and drink in the tears of all the Kemo-stack exploiters that have spent hundreds of millions on Kemo copies to abuse it!!!! >:)
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
  • littlesarbonnlittlesarbonn Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    Is this the torpedo spread that erupts with about thirty torpedoes exploding out at the beginning of a fleet action? I've been trying to figure out what ability lets you do that, as I can't seem to find anything to duplicate it.
    Fleet Admiral Duane Gundrum, U.S.S. Merrimack
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  • viox2kviox2k Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    its the neutronic explosion wich trigger kemocite again, combined with ts3, always on (bugged) kemocite = lagspike
  • laferrari1laferrari1 Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    It's not just kemocite, which is OP as hell on its own anyway, that causes lag. The game simply can't handle these FXs.
    For example, I run Tomb Raider at 1200p at very high graphics settings, far more stressing than STO *should* be even at maximum.
    When multiple flashing FXs like kemocite, plasma explosion, resonance and what not clog up the screen, the GPU goes nuts. We're not talking of small FPS drops: we're talking 0 FPS, and I run STO at medium settings to partially overcome the issue. Partially.

    Truth is I run triple A games better, and that's something to worry about for whoever's in charge of implementing the FXs.
    I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
  • thibashthibash Member Posts: 506 Arc User
    To be fair I'd prefer less extensive graphics effects over big flashy ones. The effect shouldn't be larger than the redius at any rate, But I supposed fixing the bugs would solve a lot of the graphical issues too.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    laferrari1 wrote: »
    It's not just kemocite, which is OP as hell on its own anyway, that causes lag. The game simply can't handle these FXs.
    For example, I run Tomb Raider at 1200p at very high graphics settings, far more stressing than STO *should* be even at maximum.
    When multiple flashing FXs like kemocite, plasma explosion, resonance and what not clog up the screen, the GPU goes nuts. We're not talking of small FPS drops: we're talking 0 FPS, and I run STO at medium settings to partially overcome the issue. Partially.

    Truth is I run triple A games better, and that's something to worry about for whoever's in charge of implementing the FXs.

    I doubt it's the effects. High end systems have it to. I think it's actually the scripting and permissions on scripts.

    What we have is hundreds of calls back and forth that say, "Can player X do that? Yes, player X can do that." This is an MMO thing. Unlike a standard multiplayer game which has standard anti-cheating provisions that look for isolated things, MMOs tend to try to force all ability and position calculations through their server.

    As a result, you have less cheating from a hacking/security perspective but the tradeoff is that you typically create massive bugs that can be exploited because you've got big, un-streamlined, tangled up scripts and code. More bugs and exploits but you block out overt hacking with external programs that do things like edit memory variables. It also slows down engine responsiveness.

    Tomb Raider is very hackable with external software but has fairly clean latency and few bugs. Whereas an MMO like this is less hackable but every command has to pass through data chokepoints. Pretty much the only thing that isn't choked here are the visuals.

    I suppose one way to test this would be a demorecord but I'm betting it's the commands, not the visuals. The visuals may be excessive but I doubt anybody with a decent computer and current drivers is getting lag off the visuals themselves.

    Hm. There is something worth testing, mind you.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the UI (DOffing, etc.) causes more lag than the game's actions and SFX.
  • farranorfarranor Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    We're lucky it's Cryptic. If STO was Blizzard's game, this kind of bug would let a Miranda solo elite STFs by doing infinite damage while taking no damage.
  • captinwh0captinwh0 Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    kwYFa.png




    Person with no damage probably had next to no combat time, which isn't shaming.
    Guy did ~90K in Kemocite Damage. It's a torp build. (People saying FAW & Kemo is OP isn't the problem, it's torps).
    Anyone can go download SCM and see parses like this. Loads of people do 140K on CCA and ~90-100k of it is Kemocite Explosions.

    If I still had the parse I'd throw a damage breakdown out here. Hoping someone like @odenknight can post a damage breakdown from a Neutronic Torp + Kemo build.
    end.



    i can confirm the OPness of a kemo torp build, i use kemo+neutronic+torpedo point defence. this combo wipes out hordes of any enemy even iconians.

    and because of the 3k AOE overlap the tighter the cluster the greater the dmg. far greater that a well amed scimi thalaron burst with full aux and wep
    nerf.jpg]
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    captinwh0 wrote: »
    sdkraust wrote: »
    kwYFa.png




    Person with no damage probably had next to no combat time, which isn't shaming.
    Guy did ~90K in Kemocite Damage. It's a torp build. (People saying FAW & Kemo is OP isn't the problem, it's torps).
    Anyone can go download SCM and see parses like this. Loads of people do 140K on CCA and ~90-100k of it is Kemocite Explosions.

    If I still had the parse I'd throw a damage breakdown out here. Hoping someone like @odenknight can post a damage breakdown from a Neutronic Torp + Kemo build.
    end.



    i can confirm the OPness of a kemo torp build, i use kemo+neutronic+torpedo point defence. this combo wipes out hordes of any enemy even iconians.

    and because of the 3k AOE overlap the tighter the cluster the greater the dmg. far greater that a well amed scimi thalaron burst with full aux and wep

    Kemo definitely shouldn't be proccing off Torpedo Point Defense. The torpedo traits aren't supposed to be subject to weapon upgrades.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    captinwh0 wrote: »
    sdkraust wrote: »
    kwYFa.png




    Person with no damage probably had next to no combat time, which isn't shaming.
    Guy did ~90K in Kemocite Damage. It's a torp build. (People saying FAW & Kemo is OP isn't the problem, it's torps).
    Anyone can go download SCM and see parses like this. Loads of people do 140K on CCA and ~90-100k of it is Kemocite Explosions.

    If I still had the parse I'd throw a damage breakdown out here. Hoping someone like @odenknight can post a damage breakdown from a Neutronic Torp + Kemo build.
    end.



    i can confirm the OPness of a kemo torp build, i use kemo+neutronic+torpedo point defence. this combo wipes out hordes of any enemy even iconians.

    and because of the 3k AOE overlap the tighter the cluster the greater the dmg. far greater that a well amed scimi thalaron burst with full aux and wep

    Kemo definitely shouldn't be proccing off Torpedo Point Defense. The torpedo traits aren't supposed to be subject to weapon upgrades.


    There's quite a bit of inconsistency with torpedo powers/abilities. Trait: Stay on Target isn't affected/doesn't affect torpedo-related abilities, but the Point Defense console does....

    Also, Neutronic's AoE is 3km. KLW AoE is 1km. HUGE difference in damage calculations. A few weeks ago, Neutronic had a hard AoE cap set to 10 per explosion.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    Last night, ran an ISA, 2 of the team were running kemo/Neut cheese builds.
    I literally couldn't do anything due to lag spikes.

    I finished with 5.5k DPS due to these 2 cheeserz.
    They ate all the DPS, and left everyone else in a laggy dust.

    I normally do 38-48k. So I lost 88% (approx.) of my DPS, due to cheese runners.
    Total lack of respect for other players. (Not too mention they rushed off ahead of everyone on the 3 sec countdown)

    This insanity must end.
    It's not enjoyable at all playing with these people !

    Then one of them goes and post's the combat log results in the DPS channel. I just shook my head.
    I was pretty upset.

    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • tempusmagustempusmagus Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    Total lack of respect for other players. (Not too mention they rushed off ahead of everyone on the 3 sec countdown)

    This insanity must end.
    It's not enjoyable at all playing with these people !

    Then one of them goes and post's the combat log results in the DPS channel. I just shook my head.
    I was pretty upset.

    That last part tells me who it was. You aren't the only one annoyed by this group of players. It seems like they are making it so that no one wants risk being in an ISA with them. The part about them rushing off and not waiting for start sounds like they sre purposely breaking DPS Channel rules.
  • rickdankorickdanko Member Posts: 470 Arc User
    Thank you, sdkraust, for telling it like it is.
    They're not really gone, as long as we remember them
    candle_burning.gif
    Plasma Nugget
    Rayzee
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    I'm allowed to disagree.
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